GENERAL LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. (Continued from our last.) Marriage Ordinance.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume VI, Issue 439, 17 October 1849, Page 3

GENERAL LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. (Continued from our last.) Marriage Ordinance.

lhe Surveyor General then rose to move the resolution of which he had given notice on Saturday, on the subject of the amendment of the Marriage Ordinance. The Attorney General rose and saiJ — On a former occasion, Sir, when these memorials were presented to the Council, I stated it to be ray intention to reserve for a more fitting opportunity any observations I might have to offer on the subject of them. It appears to be the opinion of the memorialists, that it. is within the power of this Council >to confer upon a religious community invidious distinctions. Looking to the main objects of a Church — seeing that it is to promote the spiritual welfare of its members — I must deny that it is within the power either of this Council or of any Legislative Assembly in the world to confer any distinction, worthy the name, upon any religious community whatever. And so far am I from believing it to be within the power of wordly distinctions or worldly wealth to found, maintain, or support such a community* that, if I were wicked enough or malicious enough to wish to destroy the spiritual vitality of such a community, I would take care to ally it closely with the State, — I woulii confer upon u secular powers, — I would provide as objects of ambition for its ministeis numerous well paid sinecbres — and Fwould endow it with the tithe of Californidn gold. When that extraordinary man, who hds become the founder of a religious community which now numbers its members by the million — and which has carried his honoured name into every region of the world — when he became the successful founder of so numerous a body it was not by means of invidious distinctions and worthless wealth ; but it was, rather by casting all these things behind him, and exhibiting in his own Jile, personified in action, the principles he preached, that he succeeded in founding the wide-spread Society which is honoured by his name. Of the character of that branch of the Society which is setiled in this colony, I should under ordinary circumstance, have felt a delicacy in speaking; but the subject having already been referred to by my friend on the left — the Surveyor General — I may perhaps be excused if I take the opportunity of pubiicly repeating what I have frequently privately expressed, that it has always been a •matter of congratulation with me that I should have had numerous and repeated opportunities of becoming acquainted with so many members of the Wesleyan Ministry and Mission in New Zealand — and that, too, where they are to be seen to the greatest advantage — in the middle of the scene of their labours. I have rejoiced in having enjoyed this opportunity, not only because it has given me a high respect for the individuals whose acquaintance I have thus had the pleasure of making, but because it was through them and by their means my respect was incieased for the community to which they belong. I trust, then, the Council will give me full credit when I say that, neither on general principles, nor from any feeling towards the Wesleyan body •coald I, speaking for myself, have been a party to any measure with the object of passing upon that community in this colony an intentional slight. And so far am I from desiring to mono.polisefor the Church of which I am an unworthy member any unfair share of the public wealth, I may also take this opportunity of declaring in public, what I have also in private repeatedly expressed, that it ever has been, and still is, -with myself, a subject of the most profound regret that that Church has ever, for exclusively Church purposes, consented to receive a siDgle rood of land, gratuitously, from the State. But, again, referring to the subject of invidious distinctions, while denying the power of this Council to confer them, I must at th« same time acknowledge that they exist, not, indeed, proceeding from this Council, or depending on temporal power or social dis-

Unction. Having paid ray tribute of respect to one religious body in this country I may not unfitly refer to another* There is, Sir, in this colony a body of religious teachers — self-denying men — little known—seldom heard of — and still more rarely seen; — a body of men steeped in poverty — buried in obscurity — and living laborious lives, with the sole object of promoting, what they believe to be, the spiritual welfare of their fellow men* I may dissent from their doctrines, — and I may doubt the value of their labours— but their life of self-denial compels my admiration and respect. Having premised these general observations, I will now proceed to address myself to the question immediately before the Council. The motion, in substance, I take to be, that your Excellency be addressed to introduce into the Council a Bill for the amendment of the "Marriage Ordinance" having for its object the lemoval of certain grievances complained of in the memorials which have been presented to the Council. Before expressing any opinion on the first paiaL' l must ascertain from the mover of the resolution, whether the motion contemplates the introduction of such a measure during the present session of Council. Assuming that to be the case, though not so expressed, I feel that 1 am unable to give to that part of the resolution my assent : seeing that it is one of the rules prescribed for the guidance of the Governor for the time being- — a rule, the propriety of which all must acknowledge — that the utmost possible publicity be given to every project of a law which it may be designed to submit to the local legislature. Seeing that your Excellency has declared it to be your intention at prespnt to submit no other measures than those already on the table— and concurring with your Excellency in the soundness of the reasons which nave led to that conclusion, I cannotcomistentlygive my support to that part of the resolution which contemplates 'immediate legislation on the subject in question. But with reference to the main object of thj motion, 1 have been happy to arrive at j what may be deemed to be a more satisfactory conclusion. I think Sir, that the Memorialists might fairly have addressed the Council to the following effect : — " You, the Colonial Legislature have left to the Church of England (I will not say conferred upon) certain powers of granting marriage licenses which they had long previously enjoyed. You must have left to that Church such a power under the conviction that the securities with which it is fenced round are sufficient to secure parents from the clandestine marriage of tHeir children while under age — the religious community to which we, your memorialists, belong, not possessing such a power, feel, whether wisely or no^ that the distinction is invidious : we therefore pray that you the Legislature will remove that distinction by giving to the Ministers of our community the like power and lenced about with the like restrictions." To be more specific, and to guard against the possibility of mistake, I will endeavour to improvise the outline of a Bill, which, with a view to the object referred to, I conceive that the memorialists might not request your Excellency to bring before the Council, It would be " An Ordinance to amend the Marriage Ordinance :" it would recite that, by the Marriage Ordinance, it is enacted and declared that licenses to marry, without publication of banns may be issued according to the Ecclesiastical Laws of the United Church of England and Ireland, by the proper authorities according to such laws and for the purpose of preventing the marriage of persons under age without the consent of their parents or guardians, the power of issuing such licenses is limited to a certain number of persons especially appointed in that behalf and subject to certain conditions, limitations, and restrictions, prescribed in relation thereto ; and after further reciting that it is expedient to confer the like power and subject to the like conditions, &c, upon the Wesleyan Society, &c, &c. — the Bill woulJ proceed to enact that : — Ist. It shall be lawful for the Superintendent of the Wesleyan Mission, &c, &c, for the time being, to issue, and to depute certain other Wesleyan Ministers to issue such licenses as aforesaid. 2nd. That before any such license (or marriage shall be granted by any such Superintendent or Minister, one of the parties intending marriage shall appear personally before such Superintendent or Minister, and shall make oath that he or she believeth that there is not any impediment of kindred, &c, and when either of the parties shall be under the age of 21 years that the consent of &c, hath been obtained thereto. 3rd. That every marriage solemnized under and by virtue of the provisions of any such license so to be granted as aforesaid shall be good, valid, and effectual to all intents and purposes whatever. 4th. That every person who shall knowingly and willingly make any false declaration, &c., for the purpose of procuring any such license, &c, shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanour. Who may be members of this Council when it next may meet; who, seeing the various changes

and chances of New Zealand, will be rash enough to prophecy ? but I must acknowledge that if such a bill were presented to your Excellency for introduction into a Courcil of which I should be a member, I feel (hat I could offer no Valid reason for withholding from such a measure my unqualified assent. After giving this candid expression of ray views I think I shall in future be exonerated from entertaining the desire of conferring upon my own church invidious distinctions, or of placing other religious denominations of my fellow colonists in a degrading position on the Statute book. The Colonial Secretary disavowed all intention on the part of the framers of the bill to place any bar or hindrance in the way of re* ligious denominations in the exercise of their privileges ; but although such was not intended, yet he was conscious that the Marriage Bill did raise distinctions which were the cause of just complaint from those who, from the operations of the measure, felt themselves placed under restrictions by it. He thought, however, that whatever steps the Governor might think proper to take for the temporary removal of those restrictions, the Council should not call upon His Excellency to introduce a new measure until the Province of New Munster was represented in the Council Mr. Merriman, said he had considered certain expressions in the petitions and in the resolution as improper — such as the word' "Church" used throughout; and also the statement that the bill " conferred" certain privileges upon the Church of England, which, he contended, it had no power to do. The power to grant licenses was one which the Church of England enjoyed independently of the bill. He was certainly surprised at the charge brought against the bill for enforcing unjust regulations, for he could say that there never was any desire on the parts of its framers, or those who assisted to carry it through the Council, to place disabilities by it upon any religious denomination of Christian people. Of this the Colonial Treasurer himself had borne, testimony at a public meeting while the bill was before the Council ; and, about the same time, the Colonial Secretary also disclaimed all intention on the part of any member of the Council to seek for sectarian difference or distinction in the measure. The sentiments then expressed by the honourable members looked upon as having still greater weight than similar expressions that had now dropped from them. The honourable member disclaimed all intention on his own part of interfering with the religious liberties of any section of the community, and stated that although he belonged to the Church himself, yet he could admire virtue and piety where he observed such in the conduct of others who differed from him, and concluded by bearing testimony to the high character maintained in these respects by the Presbyterian and Wesleyan colonists in New Zealand. Mr. Kempthome said that the learned members who had spoken on the subject of the resolution had so fully expressed his own sentiments, that he felt it quite unnecessary to add anything to what had been said by them. He certainly felt pained that the thought should ever have been entertaiued that the Council wished to deprive any denomination of Christians, especially the Wesleyans, of their religious rights. He was sure that such had never been the intention of the Legislature. The Governor expressed his satisfaction at the liberality of the observations made by hon. members. He would not gloss over the matter by confining the operation of the principle of liberality to the ministers of the bodies named in the schedule of the bill. He did not think it was intended, in passing the Ordinance, to establish any invidious distinction. By the law in England, it was Chapels that were licensed for the solemnization of marriage. His intention, in the bill which he originally introduced, was not to license Chapels but persons. He thought the proper plan would be, that each sect should have power to celebrate marriage according to its own usages ; and so far as it devolved upon him, he would lose no time in bringing such a plan into operation. His opinion was, that every minister who had forty families in his congregation should have the right to marry ; and he would also, in certain cases, authorise the Governor to extend the right to ministers of denominations known at home, on their arrival in the v colony. The marriage laws of other colonies exhibited an infinite variety, but none were more liberal than that which he had proposed. He would prefer not giving the power of issuing licenses to any, but that all should have power to marry under certain restrictions ; for he was afraid that it would only bring elements of discord into the Council if, session after session, questions were to be raised respecting the extension of the privilege to religious bodies as they arrvied. He therefore thought that two laws were necessaray, — and these he would have framed immediately. One would be in

i accordance with the outline proposed by the Attorney General, which he was delighted to bear. The other would in substance be the existing Jaw* so far as its general regulations were concerned, leaving out the subject of granting licenses, which would be dealt with in the new bill* In the meantime he would appoint ministers of those religious denominations who were now prohibited from issuing licenses, to be Deputy Registrars under the existing Ordinance in the district where they resided* He had already done this to the Lutherans, who had complained that they were enduring great hardships, in consequence of the Ordinance* He concluded by saying that he would without delay have the proposed measures published in the Government Ga>zettP, and would submit them to the next General Council ; but of course he could not tell of whom that Council may be composed ; or how they would legislate on them* The Surveyor General said that as his resolution only included two of those Churches who were shut out by the Ordinance, and as his Excellency's plan would include all, he looked upon it as by far the most preferable, and therefore thought it was his duty to with* draw his resolution. Mr. Merriman then moved that the re* turns laid on the table by his Excellency be printed. The Colonial Secretary gave notice that he would move that the Council' resume in committee on the Crown Lands Bill ;on Thursday. The Colonial Treasurer gave notice that on Thursday he would move for the further consideration of the Appropriation Bill in committee. Colonel Hulme gave notice that he would move, when the Council were in committee on the estimates, that a sum of money be voted to re-erect Government House. Council then adjourned until two o'clock on Thursday.