AUCKLAND. GENERAL LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Thursday, August 9th, 1849.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume VI, Issue 433, 26 September 1849, Page 4

AUCKLAND. GENERAL LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Thursday, August 9th, 1849.

Present: — The Governor-in- Chief, the Colonial Secretary, the Attorney-General, the Colonial Treasurer, Mr. Merriman, Mr. Barstow, Lieut.- Colonel Hulme, Major Matson, and Mr. Kempthorne. The Colonial Chaplain read the usual prayers. The minutes of last meeting were read, amended and confirmed. The Colonial Secretary presented a petition signed by the Rev. G. A. Panton, on behalf of the Kirk Session of the Free Church of Scotland, praying that the Marriage Ordinance (Sess. 8, No. 7) might be so far modified as to allow Presbyterian Ministers the same privilege to perform the rite of Marriage as that enjoyed by clergymen of the Churches of England and Rome. On the motion of the honorable member, seconded by the Surveyor General, the petition was read and received.

Crown Titles Bill. On the motion of Mr. Merriman, seconded by Mr. Barstow, for the further adjournment of the debate on this bill until the Returns relating to the Land Claims were printed and in the hands of members, a long discussion ensued. The Colonial Secretary thought that all the information to be derived from the returns could easily be acquired by a perusal of them in manuscript ; it was unnecessary, and might

become inconvenient, to delay the bill until the returns were printed. The Attorney-General regretted that any delay should have been thought necessary in a measure of such importance. However, it will be understood that the desire for postponement is not on the part of the Government, it comes from the other side of the house. The Governor, at the same time that he wished every information to be ia the hands of members on the subject, could not but view these returns as mere indexes, and that for fuller information members would be obliged to go to the records themselves. Mr. Merriman had noticed one case, that of Mr. Busby's, in which it appeared that the grant had been altered since it had received the seal of the colony and been issued. Neither of the honorable members — the Attorney General or Colonial Secretary — on moving or seconding the bill, referred to this circumstance. The Colonial Secretary could not see any good that would arise from investigating the merits of every discrepancy in every grant — such a course would cause a great deal of vexation to the claimants and much trouble to the Government. It would be far better, instead of probing them afresh, to heal up all these old wounds, and to reconcile the differences too long existing, by a sweeping measure at once. The Surveyor-General thought that, as a disease was admitted by the Colonial Secretary, his honorable friend would also admit that, in order to an effectual cure, the extent of it should be known. Although the Government were aware of the particulars connected with this question, yet the Council were not in possession of such information as he, for one, thought they should have on this subject. After some other remarks by the Governor and several members, the debate was postponed till Tuesday next.

Crown Lands Bill. On the motion of the Colonial Secretary Council resumed in Committee on this bill. The Governor submitted several new clauses, which were read, and the consideration of them deferred until a future day. Clauses 17 and 18 were amended, and 19 to 29 were agreed to. Clauses 30 and 33 were amended and 34 was agreed to. A discussion was raised by Mr. Barstow on the reading of the 35th Clause, which authorised the wardens to impound cattle found trespassing on the Crown lands, whether such lands were fenced or not. He said that the cattle of settlers running upon their own unfenced lands might readily go beyond their boundaries, trespass upon the lands of the Crown, and be impounded ; while the cattle of those holding licenses might roam upon the unfenced lands of the settler with impunity, the latter having no redress, although his run was barely sufficient to maintain his own cattle. He contended that landowners within the hundred should have the same privileges for their own protection as wardens had for that of the Crown. Mr. Merriman thought this consideration would induce settlers more speedily to reclaim their lands. The Governor thought that the difficulty might be easily overcome here, as it was in other colonies, by the settler throwing his unclaimed lands into the common, taking out a license for depasturing, and then he should be entitled, in proportion to the quantity of the land he added to the common stock, to have so many head of cattle more than his apportioned number upon the general run. Mr. Barstow thought that the scheme was practicable and feasible. Clauses 34 and 35 were then allowed to stand over for further consideration. The Governor proposed to introduce a clause to bring the public roads within the meaning of the Ordinance, so as the wardens should have control over unlicensed cattle roaming on them, and so to bring a great deal of the land laid out as roads which were not yet made, into the depasturing common. Major Matson objected to allow cattle to depasture on public roads, as a great deal of mischief would be done by them to newly made hedges, and to partially enclosed plantations and meadows. He thought that the settler should be protected from half-starved beasts, the property of persons who made no provision for their keep, but turned them out, under the cover of a license, to live upon the settler's cultivations. The Governor made the proposition with a view to prevent the evil to which the gallant member alluded ; he thought that by his plan the wardens would become the proper conservators of the roads. Mr. Barstow agreed with the gallant member that great hardship would be endured by settlers were cattle allowed to depasture on the roads ; he would only give the wardens power to impound cattle found running upon them. The Committee then adjourned.

Colonel Hulme rose to move the resolution of which he gave notice on Tuesday. He bad now become so closely identified with this country, that he hoped he might be allowed to say he felt great interest in its prosperity. ; Nothing, be thought, would tend so much to the general good and welfare of New Zealand as the opening up of its lands to the occupation of European settlers and squatters. Cattle owners in the adjacent colonies would be induced by our graziers and butchers here to ship their herds to us, and on their arrival encouraging prices would be realised, for we would have lands on which to place them, where, in the course of time, their condition would be improved, and our markets supplied with the fine wholesome savoury meat that the grasses of this country are so well fitted to produce. As the countpy would be opened up our herds woulJ extend themselves over it ; and the opportunities that every day experience would afford the natives of becoming acquainted with the management of stock, would soon induce them to become stockholders and shepherds themselves ; and in such a way the ancient New Zealand warrior might be taught to lay aside his musket and his tomahawk, as well as every warlike notion, and seek a knowledge of the implements and the employments of peaceful industry. The gallant member concluded by moving that his resolution be adopted. Mr. Barstow rose to second the motion, but he did so on somewhat different grounds from those just taken up by the gallant mover. He thought that it was most desirable that the country should be opened up to graziers, not altogether to induce the importation ! of fresh stock so much as to the preservation and increase of the cattle already in the country. Many settlers had suffered loss from want of sufficient runs on which to support [ their stock ; and he knew one person who ; had six head of cattle died from actual starvation. This was too bad in a country where such vast tracts of land lie unoccupied and unused. He knew the increase of stock was seriously retarded ; he himself was obliged to kill his calves, rather than risk the attempt to rear them, and he knew many others who* had to similarly make away with the offspring of their cattle for want of runs on which to place them. The opening of the country would prevent the necessity for the importation of stock, and keep within the colony a large amount of money annually sent out of it for the purchase of our neighbours' cattle for our own consumption. Mr, Merriman would give the motion his cordial support. What he would wish to see was an ordinance passed to settle the question and to assure the settlers that the country would be thrown open to them for squatting purposes. He believed that such a measure was actually needed for the preservation of what stock we have. He knew a settler who had lost eighty head of cattle during last winter from starvation, being so far exhausted as to be unable to extricate themselves from swamps in which they were bogged. Many persons were quite ready to make arrangements with the natives under whatever just regulations the government might establish ; and he thought that some wise and safe method might be devised, by placing the power of negotiating in the hands of some prudent officer, through whose hands the whole matter should pass, and in this way avoid any possibility of dispute between the settler and the native. The Governor said that the resolution as it now stood could not be entertained by the Council — but he thought that they might readily adopt a different one, which might answer the ends aimed at, and he less objectionable. I As it stood he could not advise its adoption, I for this reason that it involved a question that was one of universal interest for the whole of New Zealand, south as well as north ; and although the General Legislative Council of the whole islands had power vested in it to adopt resolutions on this subject, yet as this Council did not represent the whole islands, it could not entertain a subject affecting the entire country. He had incurred a serious responsibility in summouing the Council in such a hurried manner ; but he had done so under a peculiar and very pressing emergency, affecting this province alone ; and in the absence of any member to represent the other province, he did not think that members should press the introduction of subjects of a general nature which could not be entertained. What he (the Governor) would advise was, that'the Council should first go into Committee, and appoint a sub-committee to draw up an address to the Governor, embodying every argument and reason that could be given for the adoption of what the Committee desired to see accomplished, because such an address might have weight elsewhere, and then he would be able to give a distinct reply to their proposals. If it were requested, however, of him to introduce an ordinance to carry into effect what had been proposed, he feared that he must give to such request a negative : for believing that it would be impossible to act upon such

an ordinance, lie could not agree to introduce it. He thought that regulations on the subject, which he had power to make, should first be tried, and improved as time and altered circumstances would call for improvement. He believed that more general satisfaction would thus be afforded, than by an impolitic attempt to legislate on a subject where such varied interests were at stake. Ten gentlemen assembled here might proceed to enact laws on this question, in which nearly 100,000 native -people, as well as many Europeans, were deeply concerned ; but were they sufficiently acquainted with the feelings of those people on the subject to be sure that their laws would give satisfaction. He thought the best way would be to proceed in this matter by slow degrees. The Attorney- General thought that all the gallant Colonel required was already provided for by the Crown Lands Bill. Mr. Merriman. — No ; what was desired was that the power of leasing should be granted to the natives also. Mr. Barstow had heard from a gentleman who had been in search of runs, that the Government had none of sufficient extent to run any great amount of cattle. The Surveyor-General said that there was an error in that statement, which the returns on the table, called for by the hon. member himself, would show. Within forty miles of Auckland, on the southern banks of the Manukau, there were several extensive districts well adapted for grazing purposes, owned by the Crown ; and honorable members must have forgotten what had been already stated to the Council, that other large districts were about to be acquired. Cattle had not yet reached tbe extent of the Crown lands in this neighbourhood ; he believed that they had only advanced about thirty-five miles from the town. He could easily understand how it was that cattle had perished during the last winter ; it was not from starvation, but from weakness brought on by the voyage to this place, and the severity of the weather when landed here, so that they were unable to bear up against the inclement nights and days to which they were wholly exposed. A great deal that has been said by honorable members upon the subject of the scarcity of cattle runs and food for stock has been uttered from a want of knowledge of tbe actual state of the country, for gentlemen residing in Auckland who never visit the country districts can know little on the subjecton which they have spoken. The Governor said that the Surveyor General was quite right, and he could himself have stated that all that had been said was not exactly as the case stood. He had visited the districts adjacent, and he never had seen a country better fitted for grazing. He might have replied to an honorable member who had said that there were no squatting regulations in this country, and pointed to those embodied in the Crown Lands Bill which he could confidently state were more liberal than any similar regulations in any other British possession. Several oiher observations were made that be might have replied to, but he was more desirous to keep in view the wish of the gallant member, and to point out some way by which what he desired could be most effectively and safely accomplished. His Excellency then suggested alterations in the wording of the resolution, which were made, and said he believed that it was then as the gallant colonel meant it to stand. Mr. Kempthorne wished to know whether he understood His Excellency to state that he saw a difficulty in allowing settlers to lease the natives' lands ? The Governor said, that to answer that question would be to do away with the necessity of the address. He believed that the feeling in England was, that a rent should be paid by the Government to the natives for their lands, annually, and that in this way the country might be opened up to Europeans. The motion was then put as amended thus — " That the Legislative Council do resolve itself into a committee to prepare an address to His Excellency the Governor-in-Chief, requesting him to extend to the natives of New Ulster, under such regulations as to His Excellency may seem meet, the right to lease their waste lands to Europeans, so that large tracts of country shall be opened for depasturing cattle." On the motion of Colonel Hulme, the following members were appointed a committee to prepare an address to the Governor on the subject : — Mr. Merriman, Mr. Barstow, Colonel Hulme, Major Matson, and Mr. Kempthorne.