AUCKLAND. GENERAL LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Saturday, August 4th, 1849.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume V, Issue 432, 22 September 1849, Page 3

AUCKLAND. GENERAL LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Saturday, August 4th, 1849.

(Continued from our last.) The Colonial Secretary seconded the motion, feeling that the measure was the best and only one that could be thought of to set at rest a very uncertain and unsettled question, one that had so long paralyzed the settlers, and been the cause of many vexatious complaints. Such being his viewj? of the principle of the Bill, he felt more than ordinary pleasure in seconding the motion for its secoml reading. Mr. Merriman moved an adjournment of the debate until the returns concerning the land claims were printed, and in the possession of members. He thought it very desirable before the Council should proceed with, the discussion of the principles of the bill, that nuembers should be fully acquainted with, the difficulties and uncertainties that called for it. Major Matson seconded the honorable member's proposal for an adjournment, because he felt considerable difficulty in entering upon a full and fair consideration of the measure without a full knowledge of all the information that the government were in possession of

connected with the irregularities that were said to exist. The Governor thought that the motion of the hon. member should rather be put as an amendment on the motion of the AttorneyGeneral. Mr. Merriman said, according to the eighth regulation of the Rules of Council, he believed it was competent for any member to move the adjournment of a debate. The Surveyor-General said he bad now the honour to bring up the report from the committee appointed at the last meeting of Council to examine the returns relating to the land claims. The report, which was read, recommended that the whole of the returns should be printed, and it was adopted. Mr. Merriman's motion was then agreed to, and the further discussion of the Bill upon its second reading was postponed until Thursday.

Crown Lands Bill. The Colonial Secretary, according to the order of the day, rose to move the second reading of the Crown Lands Bill. He said ■that the bill contained the regulations which were already in operation for the occupation of waste lands of the Crown, and it was now brought forward so as to give those regulations the force of law. The only new feature which was introduced, was that contained in the 32nd clause, which empowered the Wardens of every hundred to apply the amount paid in for licenses for the benefit of their own district, in such a way as they thought proper to direct. This vrete surely one important step towards the introduction of the settlers to the practice of managing their own affairs. It was a matter of the greatest moment that the colonists should be induced and Jed to take an interest in the welfare of their own locality — that they should be taught to know how to expend and control their own public contributions for their own benefit. It was the acknowledgment of a wise principle, and one he hoped that ere long there would be no reason why it should not be more generally adopted. The Surveyor General seconded the motion. Mr. Barstow would prefer holding back any observations that he might deem necessary to make, until the details of the bill were under consideration in committee. There was one objectionable part, however, to which he then wished to call the attention of the Council. He referred to the power conferred on the Commissioners to impound cattle found trespassing upon any Crown Lands, whether the same were fenced or not. Now this was a power that was withheld from private persons. No settler, according to the still existing Impounding Ordinance, could impound cattle found trespassing upon his land, whether under cultivation or not, unless that land were substantially fenced. The Crown Lands, however, according to the bill before the Council, be they in ever so waste or wild a condition, are not to be trod upon by cattle at the risk of a penalty. This, he thought, was not holding the balance fair between the Crown and the subject. He would be glad to see some clause introduced which would give the settler similar power to those enjoyed by the Crown in the case of cattle trespassing. The Governor said that perhaps the honorable member would prepare some clause that would remedy that of which he coracomplained. Mr. Merriraan believed that there was but one opinion as to the desirableness of some system for regulating the occupation of the waste lands of the Crown. The consideration of the details of the bill would be more proper when it should be in committee ; but there were objectionable principles in it which he felt bound to raise his voice against, one was the enormous powers it gave to individuals, -which was a peculiar feature in nearly all the Ordinances of the colony — an evil which he had contended against ever since he had the honor of a seat in that Council ; the other was the creation of new offices in this already overburthened Province. The bill was then read a second time.

Prayer at the meetings of Council. The Colonial Treasurer then moved — " That it is desirable and proper that on each day of the Council assembling, prayers be offered up, previous to its proceeding to public business, for the Divine blessing and guidance on its deliberations." Mr. Kempthorne seconded the resolution, which, after some discussion, was agreed to. The Colonial Treasurer, after expressing his satisfaction that the general feeliDg of the Council was in favour of the propriety of his resolution, then proposed the following resolutions, which were seconded by Col. Hulme, and agreed to: — " That the Colonial Chaplain be warned by the Clerk of Council on what days, and at what hour, it will be requisite for him to attend to read prayers." — •" That if the Colonial Chaplain, or his deputy, be not present within a quarter of an hour after the appoint-

Ed time of meeting, the Council shall proceed to business without prayers being read." The Governor laid on the table a return of waste lands of the Crown, moved for by Mr. Barstow on Thursday, which was ordered to be printed. The Colonial Secretary gave notice that, on the next day of meeting, he would move that the Council do go into committee on the Crown Lands Bill. The Governor gave notice that on Tuesday next he would lay the Estimates on the table. The Council adjourned until two o'clock on Tuesday.

Tuesday, August 7, 1849. The Council met pursuant to adjournment. Present: — The Governor-in-Chief, the Colonial Secretary, the Attorney General, the Colonial Treasurer, Mr. Merriman, Mr. Barstow, Lieut.-Colonel Hulme, Major Matson, and Mr. Kempthorne. The Colonial Chaplain was in attendance and read prayers. The minutes of last meeting having been read and confirmed, Major Matson rose and presented a petition, from certain of the inhabitants of Auckland, praying for the establishment of a public market, which was read and received, and the further consideration of the prayer of it deferred until the Estimateswere under consideration. Major Matson also presented a petition from inhabitants of Auckland relative to the appointment of Inspectors of Slaughter Houses, but subsequently withdrew it so as to bring it under the notice of Council when the Estimates were under consideration.

Crown Lands Bill. On the motion of the Colonial Secretary the Council went into committee on this bill. On the first clause being read, which provides for the appointment of Commissioners, Mr. Barstow said he would not oppose the clause, but wishtd it to be understood that he held himself open to discuss the item of salary for such an officer when the Estimates were under consideration. Mr. Merriman said that this was the first clause in the bill to which he must object. He looked upon the office of Commissioner of lands as a needless one, in a distinct form, in the present state of the colony. He thought that the Surveyor-General should perform the duties of it ; and he would appeal to that honourable member himself, as to whether the duties of Crown Land Commissioner did not more immediately belong to him and should not be attached to his office. Believing himself that the Surveyor-General was the fittest officer to superintend the working of this depasturing measure, and having strong objections to the creation of new, when unnecessary, offices, he would move that the Sur-veyor-General should be appointed Commissioner under the first clause. Mr! Barstow seconded the motion, because he believed that if the office of Commissioner was made a distinct one the salary would become a burden upon the general revenue of the colony. It was quite plain that as the Crown lands now throwu open for depasturing purposes were so limited, that the revenue derivable from licenses issued under the Ordinance would be insufficient to pay such an officer, and he could see no reason why the wardens should not be considered sufficient to manage every local detail, leaving but little work to be done by the Commissioner. He ! did not object to the appointment of such an officer, but he thought that the duties might I be made so light as that they could be performed by the Surveyor-General in addition to those of his own department. Mr. Kempthorne said that the clause diJ not mention nor propose any salary for the Commissioner. It appeared as if the duties were intended to be performed by Justices of the Peace. The Surveyor-General said, with regard to ' the duties of Commissioner belonging to his office, as stated by the honorable member (Mr. Merriman) he believed that in the other colonies the offices were distinct, and, as far as he could judge, necessarily and properly so. However, if it was thought advisable here to attach this to his own, he could only say that he would do all he could to fulfil the duties of it as far as it was in bis power. But although from the limited quantity of Crown Lands now open for depasturing purposes, yet, as it was probable that large tracts of country would be speedily opened up, and cattle advance towards the interior, he believed that the duties would become more arduous, and it would require an officer to be separately set apart for those duties so as to perform them efficiently. The Governor said, first, in reply to Mr. Kempthorne's remark on the salaries of Commissioners not being mentioned in the clause, that in this respect the bill was quite consistent with Ordinances generally. Were the salaries of officers to be passed in the Ordi-

nances, then the amount would be fixed until repealed ; but the usual practice was to bring ; the salaries of officers before the Legislature in the estimates, along with the revenue ap- , propriation bill, so that the Council should discuss them periodically. With regard to the proposal to substitute the Surveyor-General for the Commissioner, he thcfught it altogether impracticable, and he could not advise the Council to adopt it. The office of Sur-veyor-General in this colony has hitherto been one of great difficulty ; and the duties that have been imposed on that officer, owing to the nature of the land claims, have been so complex and varied, that the real business of his office has been neglected ; indeed, so fully has he been occupied with matters, which in reality were foreign to his department, that he has only had opportunity to visit the interior once or twice, and that only lately, since he entered upon his office. The public interest required that this officer should not be encumbered with other duties than those of his own department, which now need the most anxious attention on his part to fulfil. The waste lands of this Province stand upon a very different footing, in relation to the Crown, than in any other part of the British empire, and it was most important that a correct intelligible survey of the country should be made ; but the Surveyor-General had never yet had time to make a trigonometrical survey of the province, in the absence of which the Council would find much difficulty in adjusting the question of Land Titles satisfactorily. His own advice to the Council would be, not to put any separate duties upon the SurveyorGeneral. That which was in contemplation by the Government for a proper survey of the country would be hindered were that officer's time otherwise occupied : and he thought that having the country properly laid down and delineated on the maps at the survey office would be so desirable and convenient for the settlers as well as the Government, that nothing should be allowed to interfere with the undertaking of such a service as soon as it was practicable. Indeed he would not hesitate to say that to saddle the Surveyor-Ge-neral with extraneous duties at the present moment would be a positive public evil. And in addition to these objections to the combination of these offices, he might say that the present bill was merely to establish by law regulations that would become at no distant day, he hoped, more extensively called for. The duties of Commissioners would ere long become so important as to require the undivided attention of a vigilant efficient officer, to carry out more largely the depasturing system, which had only had a commencement. And unless the superintending of the system were placed in the hands of an officer, responsible for its management, (the be Governor) would feel inclined to throw up the whole squatting system in despair. Mr. Merriman said that notwithstanding all that has been urged against the duty of Commissioner being performed by the SurveyorGeneral, he had heard nothing to convince him that a Commissioner of Crown Lands was required at present. For all the purposes of the present limited system a head of department here in Auckland could be easily referred to, leaving the general local details to be managed by the Wardens. As regards the necessity and great desirableness of a trigonometrical survey of the country to which his Excellency had referred, there could be but one opinion, but surely that duty would be performed by the Surveyor-General's staff; it could not be intended to dispatch that officer himself, instrument in hand, on such a service. His proper post would be in Auckland, where he would receive, review, and revise the surveys of his deputies ; and with very little additional labour supervise the depasturing system when the working of it was kepc in operation by the Wardens. If, however, his Excellency would pledge himself to introduce a squatting bill, then by all means let us withdraw our proposition, and have a commissioner. * Mr. Kempthorne thought that some measure was required to enable the colonists to arrange with the natives for squatting upon their lands, as well as on the Waste Lands of the Crown. The Governor said that this bill must have been misunderstood, for it was a Squatting Bill, and although but a few hundreds had only been proclaimed under the regulations, yet, as soon as the Government could acquire lands in the adjacent districts from the native ovi ners, the hundreds would be increased and the squatting boundaries extended. This bill was not introduced merely to give force to regulations that were erroneously considered to apply but to those hundreds already proclaimed, but to establish and confirm a code of regulations that were intended to rule a system that by degrees would extend itself over the whole province. The Crown was possessed of a great deal of land in the Northern Province, but much of it lay at a distance, and the boundaries of it had not yet been so orrcctly defined as to enable the Government

to make it available for squatting purposes : but as soon as arrangements, which were being made, were completed for extensive tracts in the Waikato and Waipa districts, those lands should be thrown open to the public. It was with a view to the bringing of the squatting system into extensive operation that the rules were framed and this bill introduced. The Surveyor- Geueral said that it was his knowledge of the system soou becoming more general, and the extension of cattle runs to a great distance from the capital that led him to consider that, in addition 'o his own duties, he could not attend to those of Commissioner satisfactorily. He felt an aversion to taking upon him duties, and to perform them in the way that had been suggested, which would merely render him a cold and formal head of a department, taking no interest whatever in its minor working and detail. The duties of a Commissioner under this ordinance would be very arduous, and upon his efficiency and assiduity would depend, in a great measure, the beneficial and satisfactory working of the system. The Colonial Secretary could not agree to the proposal. He thought that the interests of the country would be best served by keeping the offices separate. The combination of them would render the duties so complex, that they could not be properly attended to. Mr. Barstow would willingly consent to the withdrawal of the proposition, if he could see from whence the commissioner's salary was to be derived, tie felt assured that the present number of licenses would not raise sufficient funds to pay him. But if the system was to become more general, and the country to be opened up in the way that his Excellency talked of, he would feel great pleasure in withdrawing his opposition, and giving the bill all the support in his power. Mr. Merriraan thought that the battle would only have to be fought over again when the estimates came before them. The office was a complete sinecure at present. The Governor said that the proposal would really have the effect of rendering the bill inoperative. Even assuming that the Survey-or-General could, in addition to his own duties, fulfil the office of Commissioner at the present time, he could not be supposed to do so after a year or two, unless the system were not allowed to grow beyond bis grasp. He looked on the proposal as a great mistake ; it was not f&rseeing on the part of the hon. member to propose it ; if it should be adopted, it would put an end to squatting altogether. Mr, Kemptborne enquired whether, if the Commissioner were appointed, it would not be well to give him the power to treat with the natives for the purchase of their lands. The Governor said that would be objectionable, as it would bind the Government to particular officers under such circumstances. The best negotiator for native lauds that the Government had now in the country was a SubInspector of Police. After a few further remarks by the several members, Messrs. Merriman and Barstow consented to withdraw their amendment, and the clause was allowed to stand as printed. The clauses up to 16 were discussed, several agreed to, others amended, and clause 3 postponed for further consideration. On the motion of the Colonial Secretary committee adjourned until Thursday. Colonel Hulme gave notice that he would on Thursday next move that the Legislative Council do resolve itself into a committee an J petition his Excellency to introduce an ordinance to facilitate squatting in the Northern District, and to extend to the natives under such rules and regulations as to his Excellency may seem meet the right to lease the waste lands, so that large tracts of country shall be opened up for depasturing cattle. Colonel Hulme also gave notice that he would move on a future day that the Council do resolve itself into Committee to invite his Excellency to take into consideration the condition on which the Crown lands are disposed of at public auction, which he viewed as injurious to the prosperity of the Northern Province. Mr. Merriman gave notice that he would ou Tuesday next, bring under the consideration of the Council the subject of the proposed introduction of Exiles into this colony. The Governor laid on the table the Estimates for the year 1849-50, and stated that he would reserve his observations on the same until Thursday. Council adjourned until two o'clock on Thursday.