Monday, June 18, 1849.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume V, Issue 406, 23 June 1849, Page 3

Monday, June 18, 1849.

• The Council met at 2 p.m. The bill to provide for the repair of streets and roads was read a third time and passed, Mr. Seymour moved "that his Excellency be requested to bring in a bill for making »nd repairing roads" in accordance with the report and resolutions of the Committee which had taktn the subject into consideration. The motion wae agreed to. Dr. Greenwood moved that the Council adopt the following resolution on the subject of Exiles. The resolution so fully expressed bis views that he did not consider it necessary to remark further on the subject : — > Th'nt 'he introduction of Exiles into this Colony would inflict upon it a serious injury ; that it would be extremely prejudicial to the morals, and repugnant to the feelings, of the Native .race ; and that it would have a most unfavourable influence upon the character and future prosperity of the Colony, by lowering it in public estimation, and deterring honest men from choosing it as their future home. And this Council further desires to express its opinion, that ihe proposed s>stem is, in its very nature, unjust, and theiefore unwise ; because the parent country ought not* to relieve itself from the burden of its criminal population at the expense of its dependencies, nor place those who hava

broken its laws in a better position than thpse who have obeyed them ; and because the facility of removing its yearly increase of crime has a powerful tendency to keep it ignorant of its real nature and extent, as well as to interfere with any earnest and well considered measures for its reformation. Dr. Monro said there was a good deal in the resolution with which he perfectly agreed, a good deal that he dissented from, and agood deal on which he did not consider it necessary to express any opinion. For instance with regard to the latter part he thought the Council would be going out of its province and would be somewhat presumptuous in pronouncing an opinion. It was a subject which had engaged the attention of the Hriti*.h Parliament and of the wisest heads in Europe. He would confess that he did not agree with his lion, friend in condemning the system of transportation. It appeared to him that if wisely managed transportation might he carried on with advantage, and he believed that by means of it Great Britain bad been enabled to found many new colonies. He should therefore decline to pronou cc a decided opinion condemning the system, and he thought it would be more modest of the Council to decline expressing an opinion on that subject. *\ iih regard to the first clause, while he in some measure agreed with it, yet he should wish to see also stated what might he said in favor of the system, and it appeared to him that something might be said in favor of it, he Miould also wish to see credit given to Earl Grey lor good i-itentions in proposing the system ; he had borne in mind the dearth of labour and by sending the best class of convicts or exiles as they were called among an orderly population wheie the) would not be exposed to the same temptations as at home he hoped to accomplish the reformation of the exiles themselves, and he could not .-ay that it was altogether an Utopian idea. The hictory ot America shewed that the early convicts finding it easy in a new country to provide »or their wants, and having less temptation, many of them became orderly membeis of the community, and he bel eyed also that the same was the case in New South Wales. fJe should therefore propose an amendment. The amendment of the hon. gentleman, while it opposed the introduction ot exiles, omitted any comment on the system cf transportacion, and contained an expression of gratitude to Earl Grey for having laid the subject bel'oie the colonists. It was not seconded. Mr. Seymour said it was a question which was attended with considerable difficulty. It was one to which the British Parliament had not devoted so much attention as perhaps they ought to have -done. He considered it to he the duty of every community on the face of the globe to provide for, as well as to punish, those who offended against its laws, md he thought that if the punishment took place in the locality in which the c.ime was committed it would have a much greater influence in the prevention of Imu're crime than if the criminal was carried :iway from the scene of crime, because he believed that if a man knew that he was to be punished elsewh?re, away from his friends, he was less likely to abstai.i from crime. He believed that if every parish in England was to be at the expense of punishing its criminals, it would, on the ground of expense even if there were no higher motive, induce them to provide a better system of educaiion for the population. He did not think that transportation had done as much good as it is stated to have done, aud he believed there were a great number of instances where persons committed crime for the purpose of being transpotted, because the condition of convicts was at one time better than that of a vast number of the population of England. He fully concm red with the remarks of his hon. friend, who had so ably shewn the evils which would follow from the introduction of exiles iuto these settlements. The Colonial Secretary said he would prefer a much stronger resolution on this subject, for the one before the Council did not express the feeling of the colonists thereon. He considered the latter part of it should be omitted, though not for the reason given by bis hon. friend (Dr. Monro.) He thought the Council were as well fitted to express an opinion upon any subject that might be brought before them most other bodies with similar means of information before them. But he considered it was rather travelling out of their province to voluuteer their opinion as to Great Britain's *lnode of disposing of her convicts if it did not interfere with them. What he wanted was a more decided resolution. He thought their introduction would, in fact, amount to a breach of faitb. He believed almost , every settler came oat under the impression that this colony would never become a penal one. He always understood that the New Zealand Company had undertaken colonisation oil that express condition, and he was certain, many ot most of their purchasers had bought land on tbat understanding. It was hard)/ necessary

logo into the objections against this measure; public opinion was so unanimous on the sub. ject. But a strong objection, in his opinion, was, that the worst of the convicts might obtain an influence over the natives which they might use to the serious risk of the interruption of the harmony which at present existed between them and Government. Nor had he much faith hi the statements of the reformation of convicts ; he believed in many casas where they behaved well for a time they were not reformed, but simply removed from temptation. From an experience of escaped convicts in this colony, he would assert, that the most dangerous wild beasts had better be introduced into our forests, than convicts into the colony. But the reputation the colony had at present at home, and the loss it would undergo when made a convict colony, was a reason of still greater weight »ith him, and was more important than generally considered here. Every one would remember his own feeling with respect to convict colonies when in England. That aversion he believed to be the general feeling, and that nothing would check emigration to New Zealand so effectually as the proposed step. He believed that they would lose in labour, an actual amount of immigration per head, much more by the ntroiiuction of convicts than by rejecing them. With regard to Earl Grey's having been the author of the proposal, he believed that the sending the Despatch to New Zealand did not imply any serious intention to inflict convicts upon us — but that the Despatch, being a circular, was sent to every colony by a general order, and New Zealand not excepted lest it should appear invidious. The Colonial Treasurer thought the Council could not do wrong in expressing a decided opinion on the subject. It was well known how great had been the difficulty in disposing of convicts since transportation to New South Wales had ceased, the present circular was an indication of the difficulty which the Government experienced. He believed that there was only one colony favourable to receiving convicts, and that was Swan River, and if the Council should qualify the resolution, he thought they would run son c risk of their intentions being misunderstood. He would rather see a stronger resolution, so that (here should be no possibility of their views being mistaken. Mr. Moore said that as the Council had not t>hrunk from offering a decided opinion on a matter of quite as much importance, viz., education ; he could not see the force of the observation of his hon. friend (Dr. Monro), that they should not offer ail opinion on the policy of the transportation system. He thought it was a subject which called (or a very decided opinion. In his opinion, if any colony was unfit for n penal settlement, New Zealand was, on account of its physical nature, :<nd especially on account of the native race, and in a community which had the character of being a strictly moral community, the influence which it would have on intending emigrants was, in his opinion, a decided objection ot itself. He did not think that any gratitude was due to Earl Grey for consulting the wi.-shes of the colonists; he thought it was no more due that it would be to any person who, Laving it in his power to use an adverse influence, should refrain from doing so until he had asked the opinion of the other party. He d'd not think the resolution at all too strong, or expressed a word more than he would support, consistently with his desire, to sejid a courteous reply. Mr. Hickson said he had already expressed his opinion against transportation, in reply to the circular of the Colonial Secretary. He would therefore only state that his opinion was now still stronger, and he thought it was an additional argument against it that in the neighbouring colonies of Van Diemen's Land and New South Wales the opinion was almost universal against the reintroduction of convicts. He should feel great pleasure in voting for the reso'ution. The Colonial Secretary, in accordance with the opinions he had previously expressed, then moved the following amendment : — Ihat this Council views, with the greatest alarm anil disapprobation, the proposition of the jntrcduction of convicts, of any class or kind, in»o New Zealand. They believe that such introduction would be productive of the most serious evils to this colony. The contamination of the natives, which would probably arise from communication with convicts, would probably be detrimental to their character, and greatly retard their progress in civilization. The influence which the more depraved of the convicts could easily obtain over the more ignorant of them might be rendered highly detrimental to the pacific relations in the process of establishment and confirmation between them and the Government. ' These dangers would rather be heightened by the freedom from restraint which it' is contemplated that exiles would enjoy as compared with convicts undei tbe old system. The benefit oi me additional labour introduced would be more than counterbalanced by the obstruction' to /ree emigration, which would be raited thereby; in point of numerical strength alone it it a question whether, in this point oe view? the colony would not lose in the amoun, of labour obtainable from. .home. The xnaiot* .

nance <<f the high moral character and reputation which the population of New Zealand has hitherto enjoyed is, in the opinion of this Council, far more valuable to ihe colony than any momentary or immediate physical benefits to be be conferred by comict labour. While this Council are anxious to give to Earl Grey full credit for a sincere desire solely to benefit the colony by the proposed measure, yet it cannot be denied that, to moat of the settlers of New Zealand, it would appear to be a breach of written engagements, upon the faith of which they emigrated, and the posibility of an infraction of which would hare deterred many of them from ever leaving England. The Attorney-General seconded the amendment. Dr. Greenwood thought it was of so much importance that the Council should he unanimous, that he was willing to withdraw his motion. The Colonial Secretary's amendment was then put and carried unanimously. Mr. Seymour inquired whether it was his Excellency's intention 'o take any steps towanJs Carrying out the Education Kill, or other measures by which the progress of c !ucation might not be impeded. His Excellency replied that he had on the last occasion stated his views, but the Council were of op'nion that all further proceedings should be postponed till their recommendations could be carried into effect, he did not see therefore how the Government could take further steps in the matter. He would take an early opportunity of forwarding their report to the Governor-in-Chief in order that he might lay it before the General Legislature at their next meeting. There were several questions requiring the attention of the General Legislature and he had reason to hope that it would be assembled before that Council again met. On the motion of the Colonial Secretary a sub-committee was appointed to consider the case of the Wanganui settlers claiming compensation. The Council then adjourned till Thursday at 2 p.m.