LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Monday, June 11, 1849.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume V, Issue 404, 16 June 1849, Page 2

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Monday, June 11, 1849.

The Council met at 2 p.m. The Lieutenant-Governor laid on the ( table the remainder of the' documents relating to the claim to compensation by the settlers at Wanganui for property destroyed by the officer commanding her Majesty's troops, and the steps which had been taken by the Executive Council. The conclusion arrived at by the Executive Council was, that there was great difficulty in arriving at a valuation of the buildings. He wished the Council to enquire into the matter and report upon it, that the Government might be able to pay the com- | pensation, if they had funds, in the course of the year. There were two other claims of a similar nature, one was that of Mr. St. Hill, the other was a claim for compensation for damage done to properly in the town by digging a ditch, &c, for a fortification. The proprietor wished the Government to put the ground in the same state in which it was previously. Dr. Greenwood said he presumed thai the Executive Government were in favor of compensation being given. His Excellency replied that they were dcci' edly in favor of it. The question was rather as to the amount which ought to be paid. He would observe that there were two classes of claimants, one who claimed for damage done by order of the officer commanding her Majesty's troops, the other for ' damage <?ope by the rebels., ,A.s to the latter, the home, Go, vernment had laid down a principle that no such claims should be recognised, and the Executive Council were of opinion that it could not be entertained. Mr; Seymour then moved that the .Council r adopt the report and resolutions of the Education Committee which he had presented, on Friday, and request that his Excellency would be. pleased to introduce, a bill;(ounded on those resolutions. , Mr. Moore said, by the report and resolutions just read, he saw that so great and sudden a change was contemplated' by the system of education which they < proposed to introduce into the Province, that he confessed he viewed it with a degree of misgiving; almost amounting; to ,a)arm,< {for be feared: it might create an impression oii the public' mind, and particularly- amongst those whom it was most especially intecidied ! to -benefit, that some of the provisions were oppressive/ aod, inquisitorial. He, alluded especially to , tfai aliases which compelled' every' householder of every class and denomination to pay, a separate tax for the purposes of education,, and. which made it compulsory on every parent to send his children to school, or be subject to a penalty, or to strict examination by the Committee, or perhaps >to both. ' Now/ teeing that teven amongst the best .informed on .this important ! subject what great differences of opinion exist as -to the nature and, extent of, education far 1 the mass ot the people, be thought' that finT ' talking so tjold.a'step as the present the greaW est caution was r necessary, and sbooldhave preferred to see so great, a chapge more gra- | dually^btpVght, about. i.By »- report ofr $c

minutes of the Committee of Council on Education, he saw that the Lords in Council " were strongly of opinion that no plan of education ought to be encouraged in which intellectual instruction is not subordinate to the regulation of the thoughts and habits of the children by the doctrines and precepts of revealed religion." This, it is true, was so long since as 1844, but he confessed it had considerable weight with him. He was compelled to admit that he could not approach the discussion of this subject in the slightest manner worthy its vast importance, and, although sorry, was not ashamed to own that he must rely on those who had brought mind, talents, and years of study and experience, to bear upon it, and he therefore gave all credit to those gentlemen who had prepared the report ; he trusted that whatever the Government might do in the matter, the greatest caution and deliberation would be used, and thejjreatest possible amount of time and information afforded to the public mind, and in that hope he should voie for the adoption of the report. Dr. Monro said one of the resolutions recommended that a tax of £1 should be paid by every householder, this was the only clause ia which he could not cordially agree. He was not prepared, to express his dissent, but he thought it would be better if the amount could be raised by some plan by which persons who possessed a considerable amount of property should contribute a larger sum ; at present all householders were to pay the same sum, whether rich or poor. Now, although in this -community there was not the same distinction as in England, the poor being hpre the really independent class, yet he thought it would be belter if the tax could be raised ia such a way as to give the humbler classes a greater amount of confidence. - Mr. Seymour did not at all agree with the remarks of his bon. friend as regarded the advantage to the poorer classes ; he was happy to say that was an incorrect term, for as far as he was aware there were no poor classes ; he felt sure there was not an individual in the Province in the possession of health and strength who could not pay for the education of his family, wiihout relying on l<is more wealthy neighbours, and therefore it was his wish to instil the principles of true independence; he thought it was one of the best principles of tbe bill that the funds were derived from the people themselves. He thought that when the bill should be in operation, and the funds distributed by Committees, the better informed portion of the community would naturally be sought out to act on the Committees,* because they would have more lime to devote to the purpose, and therefore the uneducated classes would receive from their-bet-ter informed brethren that assistance which they could fairly ask of them, and for these reasons he thought it was better to leave the clause as it was ; he wished to do away with the impressien that the labouring class were relying on their more wealthy neighbours for pecuniary assistance. Mr. Hickson said that he had listened at- ! tentively to the remarks which had been made by hon. members on the subject, and he could I not see any reason for repeali q the present ordinance;, he thought it exhibited a liberal spirit' of religious toleration, the ordinance not 'only supported religious schools, but it also supported those which did not provid« for religious education. He could not conceive what objection could be raised to that ordinance. The objections which had been urged were 1 two in number, first, that the Executive Council had refused to advise the LieuteuantGovernor to carry the bill into operation, and secondly,' that Mr. Campbells schools would receive' no aid. With regard to the fir&t, he thought the responsibility would rest with the Executive Co'uucil, and the ordinance might be altered so as to give the Lieutenant-Go-vernor power to act without the sanction of the Executive. Council. With regard to the second objection, it would only be necessary to amend ! khe • sche lule' so ,that ' these schools might beincludeH. With regard to the report and' resolutions', thty appealed to be formed on what' -was :calle r d J ' the Irish system; he knew that that system 1 "had failed and therefore' 'he should' oppose iIS introduction. He would allow ;tbat-it T wasf tß<! 'duty of the State" to proi-vidtf-'religions irfstcoction for' tfie people, and he- conceived 3 £hit that object was' gained by the wsdinaoce now in operation, and by placing a "sufficient sum on the estimates for the support lof' schools'. ' On the 1 present occasion he-shoujd-abstain from any further remarks, but .would merely state 'that, in the event of a bilLbeing introduced, he should use all legitimate means to oppose it. The Attorney-General said he was absent when, the report was brought up, and nothing that he had beird to-day, had in the least weakened his opinion, which was in favor of theVrepealof the present ordinance. He could not see that tbe hon. member who last spoke (Mr! Hickson). had adduced any reasons in support of tbe law, as it' 1 stood. Indeed the hon. member had fallen^ into almost as many error*

as he had uttered sentences. He had saiJ that one of the objections urged against the old bill was that the Executive Council had refused to recommend the enforcement of the existing ordinance. Now, he could tell the hon. member that was not the reason at all, the bill was introduced on the broad principle of* excluding sectarian teaching. The hon. member (Mr. Hickson) then went on to praise the present ordinance, saying that it was most tolerant, and giving as a reason that every body could be educated under it. This is not the case, for the schools supported by it were under the control of the heads of religious denominations, and no person could receive education but such as belonged to these denominations. He then made another mistake in stating that, to include the Campbell schools, it was only necessary to amend the schedule, but the hon. member should remember that it would be necessary to amend not only the schedule but the whob ordinance as no fund was given to any school whatever excepting such as were conducted by the heads of religious denominations. The hon. member had referred to what he called the Irish system which he condemned. Now, he (the Attorney-General) would ask the hon. member to being forward some facts to show on what grounds he asserted that the Irish system had failed, otherwise his mere vague assertion could have no weight whatever. He could a>sert, from information which was open to the Council, that the Irish system had been very successful, it had been supported by ministers of the Crown. Even Lord Stanley, who was as enthusiastic a religionist, and as strong a supporter of the established church as the hon. member himself, had admitted that the Irish system had been successful in teaching the two sects, viz., the Protestant and Roman Catholic in Ireland. It had succeeded in teaching the two sects in the same room by lay teachers, with the exception of one day in the week, and on that day religious instructors taught in the same room, and inculcdl ed different doctrines without making a single proselyte. Any person who had only cursorily attended to the debates on the subject, would be convinced that the Government, in the last education scheme, had come to the conclusion that sectarian education was not the best system, but in order to obtain the support ot the house and the necessary funds they submitted to a compromise. This did not apply to a new colony where all were equal in the eye of the law, and here he thought they ought to put aside such objections (as arose from ignorance of the subject or from misinformation which the slightest enquiry would remove), and hejelt satisfied that it only needed enquiry to enlist all men in favour of this system, which was not a new one, but one which had long been practised with the most successful lesults. Mr. Hickson said that the Attorney-Ge-neral having thrown a doubt with regard to his statement that the I ish system had been unsuccessful, lie would beg to observe that the system had been tried and failed in his native town of Liverpool ; he could state positively that it had failed, and that the old system was reverie 1 to* Dr. Greenwood said one of the principal objections made to the existing ordinance was that it placed the schools under the heads of certain religious denominations. Ho agreed in the objection, thou.h not perhaps from the same motives as influenced some honourable members. He thought it most ungracious to those who had hitherto done all, or almost all, that had been done, to say, that because we had awakened out tf our lethargy, they should be entirely excluded. But he felt that a task had been imposed on those religious bodies which they had not the means of performing either in money or in men. His Excellency had slate.il of the clergy of the Church of England, that they were overwhelmed with their present duties, their pe- | culiar and indispensable duties, how then could they be expected to superintend the ! education of the Province in addition 1 But even if they could, he claimed a share in the work., It bad been too, much .the habit to throw the wholeburden on, the clergy, and it was a habit which engendered neglect and indifference on the t part of others, who seemed to forget ;they formed an integral part of the Church themselves. Let them revert ; to the good old Anglo-Saxon plait.. < Education was the concern of all. Let then all unite jn promoting it. He wished, hoy/ever, to notice one objection. It had reference to the amount of religious instruction to be given in common,, If they got honest and enlightened men a& iclioolmasters, he believed the theoretical difficulty would not be a practical one. The people would be satisfied if they were allowed to be so. The teaching of ichilfjren, between the ages of five and ten would, in his mind, be well done, if. it instructed them in the pre^cents , of their coramop^Chriisjtjanity ; endea- 1 vouring, rather to, impress .their, hearts, than their heads, breaking up the* soil -for,, future and special cultivation, jlf be^might^ejitute to give «n opinion, , he' would say P that . -they,,

had erred in attempting to teach childhood what was abstractedly true, rather than what was practically good ; and in so doing, inverted the true order, which said, " If ye do ray will, ye shall know of the doctrine whether it be of God." He trusted that no common difficulties would deter them from prosecuting so great and so good a work, in which he was proud to have the opportunity of sharing. Dr. Monro had been gratified to find so j few arguments brought forward against the proposed scheme of education and those so feeble ; it augured well for it. Iv every com* munity he believed there was a certain cKss which opposed any liberal and comprehensive system of education, and he presumed that class had their representatives in this Council. The hon. gentlemen opposite (Mr. Moore) from an excessive modesty, which seemed to him (Dr. M.) uncalled for, shrunk from the consideration of the subject, but while he abstained from expressing himself decidedly in favour of the scheme, had nevertheless declared his intention of voting for it. The only argument? then against the measure ! were those of the hon. member (Mr. 'Hick- I son) on his left, and these went no further than to attempt to shew that the new system was uncalled for, inasmuch as the bill in existence was founded on a liberal spirit of religious toleration. Now upon this word toleration which the hon. gentleman had made frequent use of, he wished to make a few remarks. Toleration implied that there was one body in a condition of pre-eminence, and another in a condition of dependence, and that the former suffered or tolerated something which it was not bound to do, but which it did as an act of favour. Such a *ord in talking upon religious or educational questions was particularly inapplicable to the circumstances of this colony. He need not remind the hon. gentleman that ti.ere was no such thing as a dominant ! sect or state church here. There was therefore no particular class in a position to talk of toleration. Toleration upon such questions could only be talked of by the colonists generally, and it would be for this Council to say whether they would tolerate sectarian instruction. With regard to the applicability of the ordinance which it was proposed to repeal to the circumstances of this colony, he (Dr. M) thought it particularly unsuited. He thought any law, which placed education in the hands of the heads of religious denominations solely, quite unsuited to the circumstances of a thinly peopled country. Many such cases as the following were sure to arise. In a particular district there might be, say 30 children, whose parents were of the Episcopalian church, 15 perhaps Presbyterians, and as many more Wesleyans and other Christian sects. These by comb'ning might be sufficiently numerous ft) support a school in which a sound and at the same time religious instruction might be given to the children. But if they did not combine, not one of these sects would be sufficiently strong in itself to support a school, and if you extended state assistance to any one of them, at the same time allowing its creeds and catechisms to be taught, you would exclude the others. Such was by no means an imaginary case, it was a necessary case in a thinly peopled country, and he considered the Education Ordinance defective in this respect mainly, that it did not provide education for more than one half of the children, in the country districts at all events. The system recommended by the committee was widely different, from this. They made it a condition that no teaching of distinguishing doctrines should take place in the schools. They were anxious to see religious instruction given to as great a degree as possible, but they thought it necessary that it should stop where the creeds of different Christian sects branched off from one another, so that every parent should be able to send his child to school, and the conscientious religious scruples of no man should be violated. - He regarded the system as calculated, in another respect, to have a most excellent effect. , Its tendency would be not to teach children how far they differ from one,anoiher, but how^far they agree; and, surely, such a plan was much better calculated to produce harmony and social love, and to inculcate a broad feeling of Christian humanity, than the plan of separating them into classes under their peculiar religious leaders, and by shewing them how far they differ, producing narrow and unchristian feelings of jealousy and distrust. He believed that the circumstance alone of the children meeting under the same roof, and receiving instruction in common would have the effect of promoting a good feeling in a community, and of breaking dow the barriers of prejudice. He did not speak on this subject from theory alone. He had seen the practical wotking of the system, at Nelson, in Mr. Campbells schools. Those schools had done an immense deal of good, and -iv no respect more than, in removing a great deal of sectarian prejudice. The. Hon. member on bis left (Mr. Hickson). wou|d observe that while the com.

mittee recommended the repeal of the Education Ordinance, they proposed that the half of the sum voted by the Council to be given for the education of the native race should be applied according to the provisions of the Education Ordiuance. They were influenced in doing so by the consideration that the"missionaries and other clergymen possessed a very great influence over the native mind. This they had obtained by their exertions in christianizing the natives, for which they were entitled to the highest praise. ■ With such a machinery at once available for the purpose of promoting education among the Maories, it would be inexcusable in them, if they did not make use of it. But the case of the Eu* ropean population was very different, and even as regards the natives, they recommended it, not because they considered it abstractedly as the best thtt they could adopt under the peculiar circumstances, and he (Dr. M.) hoped he might yet see the time- when the system they recommended to come into present operation among the Europeans might be extended to the natives as well. With one exception, he cordially concurred in every word of the report and resolutions, and the exception he made was one of detail,' and not of principle ; he thought that the rate to be levied for educational purposes should be a tax-not upon every householder, but upon property, and his reason for thinking so was not based so much upon considerations of justice as upon his anxiety in every possible way to disarm opposition. If the tax were one upon property, the less fortunate of our fellow-colonists who would benefit most by such a tax would be found to admit the disinterestedness of their wealthier neighbours, and would have more confidence in the measure. He trusted that such an amendment might be made in the bill in committee. The hon. member concluded by expressing t his earnest hope that they might be able to carry the measure through. They could not confer a greater blessing on the province than a comprehensive system of education, ltjmight and he believed it would meet with some cpposition at first, but he was perfectly satisfied that that opposition would vanish as the beneficial working of it became apparent. As regarded its reception in Nelson he had no*doubt£at all. Thanks to Mr. Campbells schools, a great advance had already been made in|the right direction. The people of that settlement he believed would hail such a measure with joy, and he had the most perfect confidence that it would work successfully there. After some further discussion, the question, " that the report be adopted," was put and ' carried. The Lieu tenant- Governor said he would endeavour to be prepared with his reply at the next meeting of Council. The Council then went into committee on the Roads Bill, and amended some of the clauses. Dr. Monro brought up the report of the Committee on the dog nuisance, and gave notice that at the next sitting of Council he should move that the report be adopted. Dr. Greenwood moved the adoption of a resolution respecting the introduction of exiles. Mr. Seymour seconded the motion, and the discussion was, on the motion of Dr. Monro, adjourned till the next sitting. The Council then adjourned till 2 o'clock on Tuesday, but in consequence of - the preparation for the Governor's Ball, it will not j meet again till 2 o'clock p.m. on Saturday.