Friday, May 18, 1849.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume V, Issue 397, 23 May 1849, Page 2

Friday, May 18, 1849.

Present all the members with the exception of Mr, F. D. Bell. The discussion on the Scab Act was continued and tbe remaining clauses disposed of. The Council then resumed, and the report was brought up, when on the motion of Dr. Monro the bill was recommitted. The first clause was re-amended and three other clauses were introduced. On the motion of the Colonial Secretary the Medical Bill was then read a third time and passed. The Colonial Tieasurer then moved the second reading of the Appropriation Ordinance. He said the only remark he wished to make was respecting the partial manner in which the Parliamentary Grant was referred to in the estimates. He thought that if the Parliamentary Grant was mentioned at all, the intended application of the whole of that fund should have been specified. His Excellency the Lieutenant-Governor explained, that the only reason for the Parliamentary Grant appearing in the estimates at all, was that there was an excess of Expenditure over the Revenue, and it was necessary to shew that there was some ftmd from which to meet that excess, but he imagined that the disposal of the Grant was solely under the control of the Govsrnor-in-Chief. The Provincial Councils Act provided that the Revenue of the Province shoul i be under the control of that Council, with some exceptions, viz., the Civil List, the fund set aside for education, and some other exceptions provided for by the Ordinance itself. Dr. Monro said that before agreeing to the second reading, he thought it desirable that theCouncilshould come to a clear understanding with respect to the appropriation of the Civil List. As the first Council summoned under the paitially suspended charter he thought they should be careful how they suffered a precedent to be established. In reply to a question which he (Dr. Monro) had asked on a former occasion, his Excellency said " that he was accountable for the due application of the Civil List to the Lords of the Treasury, and that he had no instructions but those contained in the charter." It was therefore desirable for the Council to enquire what powers the Lords of the Treasury possessed by Act of Parliament. He would refer to the act 9 and 10 Victoria, (upon which act he believed the present form of Government under the charter entirely rested). The 12th clause was to the effect — ' That it shall be lawful for her Majesty by any such letters patent as aforesaid, to appropriate and set apart, from and out of the revenue of any such sejarate Province as aforesaid, by way ofCivH List for the maintenance of the administration of Justice, and the principal officers "of the Civil Government, or of such sepaiate Provinces as aforesaid, such sums of money as shall not exceed £0 >00 by the year in any one .of the said separate Governments. Provided always, that if by any law, statute, or ordinance hereafter to be enacted in and by any such assembly as aforesaid, and assented to by her Majesty, provision shall be made for settling on her Majesty a Civil List, in substitution for the before mentioned Civil List, then and in that case so much oftheactas relates to the befo-e mentioned Civil List shall cease to be of any force and effect within the Province in and for which any such law, statute, or ordinance shall so have been enacted." , The next quotation he would make was from the Charter or Letters Patent.' The hon. member read to the Council the Bth clause of the charter, which was to the effect that her Majesty having authority from Parliament to set aside a sum of £6000 as Civil List did so, appropriate that- sum, " to be appropriated and applied and accounted for in the manner and form for that purpose appointed and prescribed in and by the said instructions hereinafter mentioned." The hon. member next read the following extract from the Royal Instructions, Chapter XL— Of the Civil List : — "1. The Civil List fund appropriated for the maintenance of the said respective Governments in pursuance of the said Act of Parliament," shall be applied and appropriated to such specific purposes as tbe Lords Commissioners of the Treasury for the time being or any 3 of them may from time to time direct and appoint. 2. The due application of the said Civil List fund shall be accounted for to the said Lords Commissioners or in such manner as they shall appoint. , , , ■* 3. Copies of all the accounts of the' application of the said Civil List fund shalj be laid before the said General- Assembly and the said Provincal Assemblies respectively, for their informaion." - These he believed wer.e the only, documents connected with the- Civil < List from which

they could derive any information as to its mode of appropriation. It was a question how far the Lieutenant-Governor was authorised to apply it at all, in the absence of instructions from the Lords Commissioners. His Excellency had already stated that he had no such instructions, but that he vras accountable to the Lords of the Treasury and would account to them fbr the application of the Civil List. Now, without going further into the question or disputing the validity of the position thus taken up by his Excellency, he (Dr. Monro) maintained that the Lords of the Treasury had no power over the fund which her Majesty herself did not possess, and hy the extract from the act 9 and 10 Victoria which he had just read, it appeared that her Majesty had only power to appropriate for two purposes, and he maintained that neither her Majesty nor the Lords Commissioners could give any instructions for the appropriation of the Civil List to any other purposes than for the maintenance of the administration of justice and of the principal officers of the civil Government. The object of the Civil List was, that in the event of any factious opposition it should be in the power of the Governor to carry on the Government, to render the Governor in some measure independent of factious opposition. While he agreed in the wisdom of such an appropriation he protested against the sum being made instrument to promote totally different ends, and the Civil List being made a place of refuge as it were for any item which the Government might suppose would be distasteiul to the Council. His object was 10 call forth an explanation from his Excellency as to what he considered to be his position with regard to the Civil List, and the powers of the Council, how Jar he had power to place any item on the Civil List and so withdraw it from the jurisdiction of the Council. If it was proved that the Governor had power to do so, then he should consider the powers and duties of the Council very much less than when he came there he supposed them to be. The Lieutenant-Governor said, that anxious as he was to afford every explanation it would be quite out of his power to give the explanation required by the hon member. He had stated on a firmer occasion that he had received no instruclions from the Lords Commissioners on the subject of the Civil List, but he was not aware whether the Governorin- Chief had received such instruclions or not. The tendency of the remarks of the hon. gertleman were to shew that the Act of Parliament set apart a sum beyond the control of the Council for certain objects and purposes. He would remind the honorable gentleman that the clause of the Royal Instructions relating to the Civil List, specified that it should be appropriated as the Lords of the Treasu y for the time being might appoint. His object in placing the estimates before Council was lo let them see what was the appropriation, and then if they objected .0 that appropriation their objection might be transmitted to the Lords of the Treasury. He did not suppose any instructions would be received from the Lords of the Treasury until the statement of the appropriation was sent home, in fact they could not give such instructions, as the items which might be suitable this year might not be so next. He should be happy to send home any recommendations of the Council with regard to the Civil List, but in the mean time it must be applied as stated, unless good cause be shown to the contrary. Dr. Monro did not wish to embarrass the Government, but he considered that this was a constitutional question, and he wished that it should be decided as >oon as possible how far the amount was withdrawn from the control of the Council. His Excellency said he imagined that it was a question which the Attorney-General would be best able to answer, as to the interpretation of the charter. Dr. Greenwood said, that on referring lo the letters patent and the Queen's instructions, there were two points which appeared to be rather mixed up together. The first was the power which the Council had over the six thousand pounds, and this appeared to be nil, as the QueeD had the power to take that sum out of the hands of the Council, and she exercised that power. That sum it appeared must be set apart as a sum over which the Council could have no control whatever. The second question was, how far »ny power remains he<-e to appropriate the civil list to any purpose whatever, and on that subject he hardly thought they were travelling' out of their province to enquire. "When an authority for the appropriation of the civil list had .been received from the Lords of the Treasury, then there would be power to account to them for its disposal. He should wishv if £6000 f was to be set apart to have seen it confined to the principal civil officers of the Government. He observed ~ there were some other of the civil officers who might have been included, but who were not included. He had gone over the estimates with some trouble, comparing ..them

with the expenditure of former years. He thought the estimates appeared very large comparing them with what we know of other colonies. There was an apparent decrease in the police and public works, but on the whole there was an absolute increase, and it was a question how far this was satisfactory, as the expenditure was greater than the revenue, without the aid of the parliamentary grant. He thought it was better to try if they could not keep the expenditure within the revenue, hut the difficulty was, that on going over the estimates the only reductions it was in their power to make were amongst those who had to do the work. He thought if any reduction was made it should be in the heads of departments, and it was doubtful if that was des'rable if they had the power to do it. If they expected to have responsible officers they must pay them well, and he observed that the salaries paid to these officers here were one third less than at Auckland. If they could not effect a reduction, and it was doubtful how far they could do so, it became a question whether this kind of Government was suited to the circumstances of the ca&e considering the small number of the population. He confessed he thought one Government might be sufficient, and, moreover, he heard that a separate form of government was expected for Otago, and also for the Canterbury settlement, and this appeared to him unnecessary, not perhaps under present circumstances, but as a permanent arrangement. It had arisen from the want of communication, and he thought that communication being rendered easy by steam separate Governments would not be required. He was aware that it was not in their power to do anything in this matter but merely to record an expression of their opinion on this first occasion in which they were called upon to assist in the appropriation of the revenue, and he considered that an expression of their opinion would have weight, as they had shewn they had no w : sh to oppose the Government by taking the office they held. It had been said that they must not look for representative Government until the colony n as in a position to pay the expenses of its own Government. He considered that very fair, but there was a vast difference between paying their own expenses, and paying all the expenses entailed upon them lor the purpose of governing all the Islands. His Excellency said that the explanation ! which the lion, member had asked with regard to the civil list had bepn answered by himself by bts admission that the civil list was beyond the control of the Council. With regard to any particular item which hon. j members might call in question during the consideration of the estimates he should be happy to give such explanations as h was in \ his power to give, and if items were objected to it would be competent to hon. gentlemen to record their opinion, which would go home with the estimates to the Lords of the Treasury, but be did not think it probable that the Lords Commissioners would give any instructions until receiving the estimates. j Mr. Ludlam agreed with the remarks j which bad fallen from the two hon. gentle- j men in refeience lo the civil list, he thought j many items would have been bet er placed in J the general estimates to be voted by the Council. He thought the expenditure ought to be within the revenue. The parliamenta- i ry grant was intended for making roads, and if the sura of £2700 was taken from it great injury would be done to the colony, and he considered that many items ins the estimates might be dispensed with. Mr. Moore considered it incumbent on every member, and more especially every non- \ official member, to express his opinion on the principle of the bill, and he would do so in j a few words. He thought it would have been much more desirable if the items over which they had no control had been altogether such as they could have felt satisfied with, and he believed it would have been much more satisfactory to the public generally. He was sorry that the necessity had been apparent to the Government of impounding, as it were, the sum of £6000, and putting that amount of revenue out of the control of the colonists. He agreed with the hon, member on his left (Dr. Greenwood) that it might, under cerI tain circumstances, be very desirable such a sum should be placed at the disposal of the Government, but he did not think that the necessity existed in the present instance of reserving the sum. The members of that Council by coming forward at a considerable sacrifice bad shewn that they were not disposed lo obstruct the Government, and it would have been more satisfactory had the Government placed the whole estimates within their control. The discussion the other day made it apparent that they were not disposed to curtail, the salary oi any necessary public officer, and he considered that a want of confidence ( was shewn by the appropriation of the civil list; he wished it, had Been otherwise,, arid he was certain that the Government would have" %cVn G; secn?fe^i'fi sabnoiuirig the

whole revenue to the Council. Tl at not having been done, he could only protest against the principle which had been called into operation without the necessity of it, being shewn. There were some items in the civil list which he should wish to have seen in the general estimates, and some items in the general estimates which might have been included in the civil list. His Excellency observed, in explanation, that he considered it to be the duty of the Government to fill up the civil list, and he thought it somewhat unjust to say that it shewed a want of confidence when they were only fulfilling a duty. Dr. Greenwood understood the lion, gentleman's remarks to apply not to the local, but the general Government. Mr. Moore explained that it was not his intention, as he thought this Government might throw open the civil list to the disposal of those who had to vote the money, and if not the Government might so frame it as to meet their approbation. Dr. Monro wished his Excellency clearly to perceive the position he maintained. He maintained that the whole form of Government of this colony rested on the Act which he had read. By that Act her Majesty was authorized to set apart the sum of £6000 ; her Majesty did so set it apart ; but he denied that her Majesty herself had power to appropriate one farthing to any other purpose than the administration of justice and the principal civil officers of the Government, and he denied also the power of the Lords of the Treasury to issue any instructions for any other appropriation, and he denied the power of the Governor to appropriate, contrary to those purposes laid down in the Act of Parliament, and if his Excellency did not reconsider the matter he should consider it his duty to move that the Council adopt a resolution expressive of their opinion on the subject. His Excellency said that the hon. member had spoken of his duty, and he hoped he would also give him credit for wishing to discharge his duty. When the Council went through the estimates he trusted he should be able to satisfy them as to every item. Dr. Monro said he had purposely abstained from commenting on any item of the civil list, it was the principle alone he contended for at present, and he contended that his Excellency had no rower to appropriate the civil list to any other than the two purposes for * bich it was set apart by Act of Parliament. Dr. Greenwood said he would go farther than his hon. friend, and uot hesitate to express his approval of almost every item in the civil list, but he could not help thinking that if the principle was allowed of applying that fund to other than the two purposes, it might in time be altogether applied to other purposes. He objected to the principle of admitting as a civil officer the head of any religious denomination. Mr. Seymour said he was prepared to express his opinion in accordance with his hon. friend opposite. When the question of a new Province and new Government in this part of the Island was agitated, he objected to it on the ground of expense and the small amount of population. The majority of the settlers were of a different opinion, and prayed for a separate government, and the home Government acceded to their petition, he was now prepared to vote a sum proper ior the administration of that Government. The question of the second reading was put, and being assented to, the bill was read. Dr. Monro then gave notice that on Monday next he should move that the Council do adopt a resolution, — "That by the charter of this colony the only items of expenditure provided for out of the Civil List are such as may be classed under the heads of the maintenance of the administiation of justice and of the principal civil officers of the Government." The Colonial Treasurer gave notice that on Wednesday next he should move that the Council do go into Committee on the Appropriation Ordinance. The Council then went into Committee on the Entire Horses Bill, and Mr. Bannatyne gave notice of third reading on Monday.