Monday, May 14.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume V, Issue 395, 16 May 1849, Page 3

Monday, May 14.

The Council met at 2 p.m. A!! the Members were present, with the exception of Mr. Dillon Bell. The minutes of last meeting having been read, Mr. Bannatyne presented a petition ' from the Rev. J. Wa kin, praying that the Government would grant assistance towards the rebuilding of the Wesleyan Church. Mr. B. said he had nothing to offer in support of the petition, nor had he any thing to say against it, he would therefore simply move that the petition be read, and the Council could form their own opinion of it. Mr. Ban • natyne then moved that the petition be taken into consideration to-morrow. Dr. Monro moved that copies of all papers relating to New Zealan.J and the other Australian colonies, since the first of January, 1839, published by authority of i'arliament, letters patent, and other official documents affecting it, be procured as soon as possible, an I laid upon the tible of the Council. Mr. Bannatyne seconded the motion. His Excellency the Lieutenant-Governor said that the official Gazettes relating to this and the Northern Province should be laid on the table as soon as possible, but for the other documents it would be necessary to send to England. On the motion of Mr. Baunat. ne the Council then went into committee on the "Entire Horses Bill." On the title being read Mr. Bannatyne moved that the words " and other aiiimalk" J be inserted after the words "entire horses." His Excellency said he would suggest whether such a clause would not create inconvenience to owners of cattle, sheep, and other animals. In other colonies similar bills were iimited to horses, and if the provisions of the bill were extended to all animals, the natives j would come under the operation of it, indeed I it would be almost impossible to put such a bill in force. Mr. Bannatyne said he only proposed to extend it to horses, bulls, mules, and jackasses. Mr. Seymour wished that the words " run at large" should be defined. Dr. Monro asked the Attorney-General, if a person rented land from the New Zealand Company, at the Wairau for instance, would stock on such laud be considered as " runniu r at large," according to the piovisions of the ordinance 1 The Attorney-General said, in his opinion they would not. Dr. Greenwood suggested, that immediately the stock trespassed on the adjoining land they would be considered as " running at large," to which the Attorney General assented. His Excellency said it would be impossible to prevent the animals running at la-ge, unless they were in fenced land. The consideration of the title was then adjourned. Mr. Bannatyne moved an amendment to the first clause, for the purpose of including bulls, entire asses, and mules. Mr. Moore was of opinion that tbe amendment was provided for by the Impounding Ordinance. The Attorney General said that would only refer to public roads. The Colonial Secretary remarked, that the Impounding Ordinance made it peual to impound contrary to the provisions of that ordinance. Dr. Greenwood said that great hardship had been experienced in Nelson, and he had kuown people who had given up cultivating their land in consequence of not being able to impound cattle trespassing upon it.

Dr. Monro s mi, that in reply t > the remarks which his Excellency hud made, he believed that stock owners would be more injured than benefited by such animals being excluded from the provisions of ths bill, he thought much damage would arise from bulls of inferior, or even any breed, getting among the young stock. His Excellency observed, that persons having cattle runs would not be able to keep fences. Dr. Monro said he thought it better that such persons should have to look after their bulls, than that their neighbours should be liable to have them amongst their young stock. His Excellency was of opinion, that rams not being included, the owners of cattle would claim the same privilege as the owners of sheep. Dr. Monro did not consider that rams were so liable to stray as bulls, and moreover that cattle could be taken to a shed, while sheep could not. Mr. Hunter said he nnderstood that stock ou the owner's ground were not considered as running a: large. Dr. Monro requested the Attorney General to define the term " run at large." The Attorney General said the words " at large" were the same words which were used at home, where the circumstances were different. It was impossible for him to define exactly their meaning, that was a question for a jury ; but as far as he- could say, any animal on the owner's property could not be said to be, grammatically speaking, "at large," it not being at large to damage any one else. If any other words were necessary, in consequence of the nature of the country, the Council would do well to introduce them. The Colonial Secretary said he agreed with the latter part of the Attorney General's remarks, but certainly not with the former. He thought the hon Attorney-General had hit the mark exactly when he said it was a question for a jury, but he did not think it was desirable for the Council to leave clauses for the consideration of a jury. Dr. Monro then moved that the first clause do stand thus :—: — Be it therefore enacted, that the owner of any En'ire Horse, Bull, Entire Ass, or Mule, which shall be found straying or running at large, shall be liable to a penalty of not more than £o nor less than £2. Provided always that this enactment shall not extend to any Entire animal being depastured on any land belonging to or rented by the owner of such animal. The Colonial Secretary suggested that the words "in peaceable occupation of" should be inserted after the words " rented by," in order to include the Wairarapa settlers. Dr. Monro thought it would be better to insert a separate clause, he was under the impression that his amendment included ths Wairarapa settlers. In answer to a question from Dr. Greenwood, his Excellency said that the Government were anxious to be able to lease the land to the settlers, but were unable to do so at ) resent. Dr. Greenwood said they were making rules for land over which they had no control, .-night it not be nominally rented from the Governm -nt. His Excellency said the Government could not possibly give a title to that which they did not possess. Dr. Monro suggested that it would only be for the purposes of this Ordinance. His Excellency said he not consent to a clause which would virtually repeal a former Ordinance making the occupation of such lands illegal. The Aitorney-General also expressed his opinion that such a clause could net be admitted. Dr. Greenwood enquired if it was necessary to extend the provisions of the Ordinance to Wairarapa until it was legally acquired. The Colonial Treasurer said be did not think it was worth while to say anything about the Wairarapa. If the settlers occupied lauds there, they did so at their own risk. Dr. Greenwood did not wish to leave anything in the bill for reference to a jury. The amendment, which was seconded by Mr. Ludlam, was then put and carried. On the second clause being read, Dr. Greenwood thought it should be incumbent on persons instituting proceedings to prove a damage, otherwise they might come before the Magistrates in trivial cases. Dr. Monro considered the object of the bill not so much to recover damages as to prevent animals from running at large at all, and therefore he thought such a clause would render the bill ineffectual. Mr. Moore thought that there should be proof of some specific damage, otherwise there might be a great deal of litigation even where a positive benefit would perhaps arise from the animals being at large, he thought there should be a discretionary power with the Magistrates. His Excellency suggested that some age ought to be specified at which the animals

should be liable to the provision! of the Ordinance. * The Colonial Treasurer proposed that a clause be introduced limiting it to animals upwards of 12 months old. Dr. Monro thought it better to leave the question of age to the Justices. Mr. Ludlam did not think under the present wording the Justices had any discretion. Dr. Monro thought that might be met by altering the clause so as to give Justices discretion ; he would request the assistance of the Attorney General in drawing up the clause. The Attorney General said that the Com* raittee had better adjourn to give time for drawing up the clause. Further consideration adjourned. Mr. Hickson rose, pursuant to notice, to bring forward the case of Mr. Grimstone. The petition, which was read on Thursday last, was to the following effect : — That the Memorialist entered into the service of the New South Wales Government in 1837; in 1839 he was appointed a clerk of the third class with a salaiy of £125 per annum with an annual increase of £15 until it reached d£2oo; in December 1839 he was appointed to an office in this Colony at a salary of £20) a year the first year, and an annual increase of £2Q until it reached £300 ; in Jan. 1844 he was appointed by Captain Fitzroy to the offices of Secretary to Government, Registrar of Deeds and provisional Auditor at a salary of £250 per annum which appointment was confirmed by L<>rd Stanley in Jan. 1845 ; in the interim his income had been re duced £50 in consequence of the exigencies of the Government but he was informed that the reduction was only temporary and that, if confirmed by Lord Stanley, he would be permitted to draw the arrears. The Registration of Deeds was opened by him in 1845 and he also acted as Paymaster of Militia during the disturbances of 1845-46. In reply to an application the Memorialist was informed by his Excellency Governor Fitzroy that the question should be referred to the Legislative Council. He had since applied to Governor Grey for the difference of pay between .£250 a year and the amount actually received by him, but his Excellency had intimated his inability to entertain the request. In April 1846 his salary was reduced to £150 per annum ; in January, 1848, he was offered the situation of chief Clerk in the Colonial Secretary's office with a salary of £200 a year. The memorial further sets forth the salaries now paid to the Colonial Secretary,, the Colonial Treasurer, the Auditor General, and the Registrar of Deeds, and concludes by praying the Council to vote such sum as might seem meet to them. Mr. Moore, in seconding the motion, said he desired to make two or three remarks on the merits of the case. The facts were contained in the memorial and clearly stated by the mover, and he thought that they embodied a very strong claim- All persons who were in the sphere of observation were quite aware that Mr. Grimstone had done his duties most efficiently. They found that in 1839 the petitioner left the service of the Government of New South Wales, where he believed that promotion was accorded to meritorious services, and he (Mr. Moore) thought that had Mr. Grimstone performed the same offices under any other Government he would not have found himself in a worse position than when he commenced, and he I enjoyed only for a short period the remuneration which he had been promised, and then submitting to a necessary temporary reduction, which he was told was but temporary, he went on cheerfully with his duties. There were other cases of temporary reductions at the same time, and he believed they were eventually paid up, and, moreover, there was a doubt as to the propriety of such reductions at all, without further necessity or authority than had been shown. He looked on Mr. Grimstone's appointment, after having been confirmed by Lord Stanley, as an appointment from home ; and it is laid down in the instructions of the Lords of the Treasury that where a salary had been confirmed it could not be reduced without the express sanction of their Lordships. This was a strong reason for the present claim, but not so strong a reason as the satisfactory performance of his duties. For a considerable period Mr. Grimstone acted as Paymaster of Militia, and he (Mr. Moore) could answer for his having performed those duties satisfactorily ; whether he was entitled to euforce a claim for this service he could not say, he believed it was a matter to be left to the generosity of the Government. As the hon. Member who had charge of the memorial had forborne to insert this item he would not further remark on it. He considered the present a just claim, and that there was a moral obligation on the part of the Government to recognize it, for on the face of the documents there were engagements to pay a certain sum for certain services. The services were performed, but the stipulated amount was not paid. That there was a distinct acknowledgment on the part of the Government that the memorialist had been inadequately remunerated was shewn by an extract from a letter addressed to Mr. Giirastone by the Private Secretary of his Excellency the LieutenantGovernor, dated 12th October, 1847. — "Hii Excellency the Lieutenant-Governor is- quitt •ware of the inadequacy of your salary trthe

duties •expectetl to be performed." Tins was" so .plain an acknowledgment that lie did not see what answer could be made to it, except to relieve llie Government from the obligation by paying it. Again it should be borne in mind ihat a public officer had a right to look to meritoiious services as a fair standard of reward ; and when it was shewn that the gentleman alluded to petformed the services now performed by three gentlemen, and all at higher rates than he received, he thought it was only far that he should receive the difference between the amount promised to him and the amount actually paid. He was aware that this was a bad time to make such an application on account of the state of the finances, but that was no answer to the claim, and could be no bar to its justice, the Government having incurred an obligation they were bound to fulfil ie ; and, though he was a strenuous advocate for an economical management of the revenue, and while he had a voice in that Council he hoped he ever should be ;. he thought they were bound to be just in their economy, and he thought that if the Government had been in some cases more just, and in others less jealous, a greater amount of confidence would have been awarded to them than they at present enjoyed, Mr. Bannatyne would vote in favour of the petition, which he thought entitled to the support claimed for it by the hon. mover and seconder. His Excellency the Lieutenant Governor said, that before the Council proceeded further in this question, he considered it right I that they should be in possession of some other facts of the case ; he thought that hon. members were rather looking at the case in a wrong light. The case certainly appeared a very hard one, and he himself would admit, that as far as he had cognizance, Mr. Grimstone had been a very meritorious officer, but if the Council thought that the memoiialist was entitled to remuneration, it would haidly < be in their province to look back to the past, j and decide upon the acts done by the Government long before this Council was formed, and it would perhaps be better for them to recommend that he be more adequately remunerated for the future. The first point in the memorial on which he would remark was the statement that Mr. Grimsione had been confirmed in his office by Lord Stanley. When that confirmation arrived the Government were not in a position to continue Mr. Gtimstone's services in the situation to which he was appointed, and Mr. Giimsione was therefore offered the situation at a lower rate The Government had no alternative but to discharge him, cr give him a lower rate of | saiary, and it was optional with Mr. Grimstone to accept it or no*. The second point j was the statement of the Memorialist, that " the reduction was only a temporary one, and that if confirmed by Lord Stanley, he would be permitted to draw the arrears of pay." He thought that some evidence should have been adduced to show 'hat such a promise was made, since the words would admit of a different construction. Another point was the assertion that the question had been referred to the consideration of the Legislative Council. It appeared by a minute to which his Excellency referred, that the matter had been refeired by his Excellency Gevernor Fitzroy to his Executive Council, who decided that they could not comply with the application. The fourth point to which he would reft r was the statement that Mr. Grimstone's claims bad been brought under ihe notice of the Governor-in-Chief, and a recognition of them refused by him. His Excellency tlien read a n.inute of the Auditor General at Auckland, to the effect " That the Superintendent's establishment had been re- j cently increased by the appointment of Mr. j Kemp, and by an extra clerk,, and that Mr. Grimstone's appointment in 1844 was that of Secretary to the, Superintendent and Registrar of Deeds ; — these two offices were npt considered distinct. As regards Mr. Grimstone's statement, that the Registrar of the Supreme Court at Auckland had received £50 per annum as' Registrar of Deeds, Mr. Giimstone was ' under a misapprehension as no such allowance was made-" The Lieutenant Governor also read a minute jaf his Excellency the Governor-in-Chief on this subject, in which he- referred to the misapprehension into which Mr. Grimstone had fallen, and stated that no such.allowance having been made in ihe Northern Province, le could ( not sanction it in the Southern. His Excellency "observed that his object iv reading t|ese_minutes was that the Council might know f that the question was one which had been brought forward before. In another part Mr. Grimstone makes it almost a subject of complaint that he was offered, the situation, of chief Clerk iv the Colonial Secretary's office. He appeared under some misapprehension in calling himselt Secretary to the Government, he was ip fact^only Secretary to his Honor -the Superintendent. \ His Excellency observed that \e 'Considered jhe case beloreithe Cou,ncih was sDme,wbat. a ,»,rprjg one, audjj,hat it was.

rather £ question of what the Memorialist was entit'ed to for the future than for the past. I Should the Council decide in favour of this , claim, there were other officers who had been subjected to temporary reductions, and if similar claims were made, after an interval of several years, by those whose salaries had been thus temporarily reduced, such a course would put the Executive in a very embarrassing position. The Colonial Treasurer replied to some statements which had been quoted in support of the petition. He said he saw nothing in it to support. Dr. Greenwood had some difficulty in rising to state objections in a case of this kind : it was more pleasant in a case of hardship to vote that it should be relieved. It appeared that Mr. Grimstone had remained ten years in the public service without receiving any increase of pay, while the expenditure of the Government had increased four fold. It appeared however that all the claims were for services pel formed before this became a separate Province, and it was a question which he should be very unwilling to enter into. There was a great difference between allowing the justice of the case as against, and voting money from, the the Province for past services. He thought it would be better first to consider the estimates, which shew a very considerable deficiency in the revenue, and see whether they had any funds available for the purpose before pledging themselves as to the application of them. Mr. Hickson replied at considerable length. The question having been put was negatived. Dr. Monro moved for the returns of which he had given notice. His Excellency laid on the table a return of the expenditure for the past year and past quarter, he said most of the others were in process of preparation. Council then adjourned till Tuesday.