NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT BILL.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume IV, Issue 296, 31 May 1848, Page 3

NEW ZEALAND GOVERNMENT BILL.

House of Commons, February 9, 1848. Mr. Labouchere moved that the order of the day for going into committee upon this bill be read. The Earl of Lincoln was most unwilling to make any appeal to the right hon. gentleman the President of the Board ot Trade which might appear to him to indicate a wish on his (the Earl of Lincoln's) part to impede the progress of public business, but he really must ask the right hon. gentleman whether he would think it right to proceed with this discussion at the present moment. The right hon. gentleman would recollect the circumstances under which the bill had reached the present stage. The right hon. gentleman appealed to the house before it adjourned for the Christmas recess to permit the second reading to be taken, promising that an opportunity for discussion should be given on the question of the bouse going into committee. The house had now met to discuss this bill on a Wednesday, a very unusual proceeding in regard to a measure of so much importance. As an authority in support of his application, he might refer to the argument used but a short time ago by the right hon. gentleman the Secretary for the ' Home Department, who appealed to the hon. member, for Stroud (Mr. P. Scrope) not to proceed with the discussion upon which he was about to enter, upon the ground that, as the business fixed for the day was the New Zealand Government Bill, the First Lord of the Treasury and other members of the Government would be absent. That was almost always the case on Wednesdays ; but, as the Under Secretary for the Colonies (Mi. Hawes) was unfortunately unable to be present, the house had an additional claim upon the attendance of other members of the Government when a measure like that before the house was about to be brought under discussion. He had no doubt that the right hon. gentleman the President of the Board of Trade had given all the attention he could to the subject, but it must not be forgotten that the noble lord at the head of the Government had filled the office of Secretary of State for the Colonies, and was, therefore, capable of affording much valuable information to the house. If the Irish Poor Law was an improper subject for discussion in the absence of the noble lord the First Lord of the Treasury, he must say that he thought that an alteration in the constitution of New Zealand must lead to a discussion which would require, at least in an equaldegree, the presence of the noble lord. These subjects were last commented upon in 1845, and nine nights of the session were consumed in debates upon the condition of New Zealand. He believed that the condition of, that colony was as criticil now as it was then,, and although r , this was not the proper time debate the question whether the constitution which had been given to New Zealand was a proper constitution or not, yet Jt must f be remembered that the present bill proposed a suspension of that constitution, and this was a question which he thought-ought to be gravely and seriously discussed. But did the right hon. gentleman think that a subject which had engaged the attention of the house for nine nights iv 1845 could be seriously discussed in three hours? He felt certain that the right hon. gentleman would have a better chance of accomplishing his object by taking some .Government night for the bill, and allowing its discussion to come on at five o'clock. If the right hon. gentleman persevered now, he was confident that the house would not get into committee, but that a preliminary discussion would arise which would be terminated by the adjournment of the house, at six o'clock, and which was sure to be renewed .whenever the bill again came before the house. Mr. Labouchere said lie was in hopes, from

the tone which had prevailed when the question was last before the house, that there was but littlediversity of opinion upon the subject among hon. gentlemen opposite. He certainly had understood that with regard to the necessity of suspending the constitution of New Zealand, after the strong recommendations to that effect which had been received from Governor Grey, there vias very little difference of sentiment upon that question. Supposing, therefore, that the principle of the bill was agreed to, he thought that the committee was a proper stage for entering into this discussion. From what had taken place, therefore, on the second reading, which did not pass altogether sub silentio, as the noble lord seemed to suppose, he was justified in supposing that the committee was a more proper opportunity for taking the discussion than the second reading itself. The noble lord asked him to postpone the committee. He was sure that he need not tell the noble lord, after his official experience, of the extreme and increasing difficulty which the Government of this country found in bringing forward for the discussion and decision of the House of Commons those important questions which it was their duty to lay before Parliament. The Government had only two nights in the week for the discussion of measures originating with themselves, and those nights were frequently broken in upon from other quarters, and it was almost impossible, without taking advantage of every opportunity which presented itself, for the Government to obtain time for the consideration of those measures | which the country demanded, and which the Government would be censured for not bringing forward. He could not, therefore, agree with the noble lord in thinking that Wednesdays, although devoted in the first instance to measures intrusted to private members of Parliament, might not also be justifiably occupied in discussing any Government bill which might be before the house. Upon these grounds he hoped the noble lord would excuse him for not complying with his request, and would not impute it to any disrespect for him if .he expressed a hope that the house would go into the consideration of this bill in committee, where he should be quite ready to consider any objections that might be urged against it. Mr. Gladstone said, that after the strong opinion which the right hon. gentleman had expressed, he would not revive the question raised by his noble friend with respect to the inconvenience of a discussion of this nature at the present moment. He would proceed, therefore, to consider the positive enactments of the bill itself, and another collateral question, which, though not directly embraced within the provisions of the bill, was at the same time of such vital importance to New I Zealand, that it was impossible to pass any stage of a constitutional measure of this kind without taking a view of it. With regard to the provisions of the bill, he considered them as consisting in part of suspending, and in part of enacting provisions. With respect to the enacting provisions of the bill, though they were of an nnusual character, both in form and degree, yet upon the whole they corresponded with the demands which Governor Grey had made, and therefore he thought that they perhaps would do better by passing these provisions in substance than by adopting any other plan which could be suggested. But when he came to the suspending provisions of the bill, he could not help feeling a wish to put a question to the right hon. gentleman, upon which he thought he had some claim to explanation. He did not understand why the constitution of 1846 should be suspended for a term of five years rather than be repealed altogether. He quite understood why, under ordinary circumstances, when the Legislature was about to suspend the action of a law which was in existence and operation, they should fix a period when its suspension should cease, and its operation be renewed ; because, when the special cause for its suspension is determined, there was no reason why the law should not again revive in full force and vigour. But the house was not about to discuss the provisions of a constitution which was now in existence, or which had ever existed. The New Zealand constitution of 1846 was a mere paper constitution. It had never found its way into actual life, and was known to the people of New Zealand only as a matter of theoretical and speculative discussion. How far public opinion in New Zealand had been expressed in its favour, sufficfent for the house to presume that this was the most advisable form of constitution for that country, he did not know. He did not know whether they had at present any evidence that this constitution, and no other, was the constitution which they were called upon, not to revive, but to establish, in the year 1848. It appeared to him, therefore, that suspension was an inconvenient mode of fettering the future judgment of the house. He thought that the simplest, the wisest, and the most practical course, would be to say that the time had not arrived when it was proper to grant this constitution, and therefore that it ought to be repealed ; and that while the house contemplated giving at a future time a

coDstitution to New Zealand, which should give a.new scope to popular principles, they were prepared to undertake such a task when, from the experience afforded them by time they were enabled to assent to a constitution which should have real life ana operation. He hoped that in the course of this discussion they would have these masters, which were matters of public convenience, fully examined. But he could not pass by this stage of the present bill without adverting to a question of the utmost practical importance to the social welfare of New Zealand, and, it might be, of its peace and tranquillity. He referred to the claim on the part of the natives to land in that country — a question which so entirely lay at the root of every discussion connected with New Zealand, that the house would in vain adopt the wisest and most skilful measures with regard to constitutional principles, unless they took care that they followed a wise and safe course in regard to that fundamental matter. It would be against the first principles of humanity, and not only detrimental to the peace of the colony but the happiness of its population, if they allowed any object to interfere with the proper settlement of that question. He wished, therefore, to state frankly to the Government, in the person of the right hon. gentleman, the difficulties which occurred to his (Mr. Gladstone's) mind in regard to it. He did not wish to commit himself finally to any positive opi- , nion, because no man was more anxious to feel ' satisfied that the views of the noble lord at the head of the Colonial Department in regard to this question were views calculated to promote the peace and welfare of the islands of New ! Zealand. He thought there could be no doubt as to what had been the understood construction of the treaty — whether fortunate or unfortunate in the first instance he would not inquire — of Waitangi, which was conceived to regulate the disposal of public lands in New Zealand, so far as regarded the claims of the natives to land. It was well known that the natives had occupied a certain portion of the fertile lands of those islands, which they had improved by their labour. It was well known that the natives might be said to occupy another and a much larger portion of the lands of the island, which, however, they had not improved by labour, but which they used for purposes connected with the feeding of cattle, the pasturing of wild pigs, &c. These were not lands improved by cultivation, but were used by the natives in a manner somewhat beneficial to themselves, though certainly in a way very adverse to the principles of political economy. Now, when the treaty of Waitangi was concluded, it was universally understood that the titles of the natives were to be recognized, under that treaty, not only to the lands they had occupied and improved by labour, but likewise to those lands from which they derived a beneficial use in the manner he had described, even though that partitular use was very slight indeed compared with what they derived from the land which was under cultivation. Governor Grey gave a very simple and just description of the footing on which this matter ought to stand, in a despatch received from him in the month of December last. He said : — "The position I undeistand to he adopted by the New Zealand Company's Agent, that, if tracts of land are not in actual occupation and cultivation by natives, we have therefore a right to take possession of them, appears to me to require one important limitation. The natives do not support themselves solely by cultivation, but from fern root, from fishing, from eel-ponds, from taking ducks, from hunting wild pigs (for which they require extensive runs), and by such like pursuits. To deprive them of their wild lands, and to limit them to lands for the purpose of cultivation, is, in fact, to cut off from them some of their most important means of subsistence." This view of Governor Grey had been, he might say, universally understood by all who had considered the treaty. He would now frankly state the point to which his anxiety was chiefly directed. He wished to be assured that the despatch of Lord Grey, dated the 23rd of December, 1846, and the instructions appended to that despatch, so far as regarded the public lands, were in conformity with that treaty. He thought good faith towards the natives required that they should be. (Hear, hear.) The house should bear in mind that the natives of New Zealand did not judge of this nc alter by the terms of the treaty, but by the interpretation put upon those terms by all the persons in New Zealand occupying places of authority ; and it followed, therefore, if good faith was to be maintained with them, that that construction should be adhered to. He wished to see this course followed, also, because hr was convinced that the peace of the island was involved in the question. He referred to the despatch of Lord Grey in order that it might be fully understood on what his doubts and apprehensions on this subject were founded. In a despatch which was printed among the papers presented in August, 1846, Lord Grey spoke of the pretensions put forth by certain tribes to large tracts of waste land, which they " had been taught" to regard as their own. He said,— r

" It appears that you hare found it expedient to admit these pretensions to a considerable extent ; and, having done so, no apparent advantage could be suffered to weigh against the evil of acting in a manner either really or even apparently inconsistent with good faith. While, however, you scrupulously fulfil wiratever engagement you have contracted, and maintain those rights on the part of the native tribes to land which you have already recognized, you will avoid as much as possible any further surrender of the property of the Crown." Then, in the instructions appended to that despatch he said, — " No claim shall be admitted in the said land courts on behalf of the aboriginal inhabitants of New Zealand to any lands situate within the said islands, unless it shall be established to the satisfaction of such courts that either by some net of the executive government of New Zealand, as hitherto constituted, or by the adjudication of some court of competent jurisdiction within New Zealand, the right of such aboriginal inhabitants to such lands has been acknowledged and ascertained, or that the claimants or their progenitors, or those from whom they derived title, have actually had occupation of the lands so claimed, and have been accustomed to use and enjoy the same, either as places of abode, or for tillage, or for the growth of crops, or for the depasturing of cattle, or otherwise for the convenience and sustentation of life, by means of labour expended thereupon." Now, his doubts and difficulties rested chiefly upon the point that the instructions of Lord Grey appeared to confine the titles of the native tribes to cases in which it could be said of land that it had been improved "by labour expended thereupon," and did not extend to lands which natives applied in other ways to their own purposes and for their benefit. Now, he had shown that by the construction hitherto put upon the treaty, they were no justified in imposing such a limitation ; but, if he understood aright the view taken by Lord Grey, in the instructions he had just read, the courts of New Zealand would be forbidden giving titles to any land except such as had been improved by labour. This was a very important matter ; for, as respected the greater part of the northern colony, there was but little land likely to be available for useful purposes except what was claimed, used, and enjoyed by the natives in that slender but still real sense which he had endeavoured to describe. He would now state, as clearly as possible, what he understood Lord Grey's meaning to be ; for he was anxious, if wrong, that his interpretation of the documents he had read should be contradicted. And he could assure the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Labouchere) that he would be but too happy to find that the meaning was not such as he attributed to it. Lord Grey stated that they should maintain inviolable the titles to all lands that had been recognized by the colonial authorities. Now, he considered, that under the provisions of the treaty it was impossible that the precise titles to the land could be fixed. A general principle was laid down, and it was committed to certain tribunals to determine the application of that principle to each particular case. The application of the principle had accordingly been determined] in particular cases ; in a manner, hoY/ever, that Earl Grey thought improvident. His instructions in effect were, that they should respect religiously any proceeding of the kind that had taken place, but that they should not consider the treaty in the same sense in future ; that in future- the natives > should obtain titles to land onlyin cases where it had been improved by labour. Hewas sorry to say that this construction, which, he had put upon Lord Grey's language, wasconfirmed by a document the existence of which be regretted on many accounts — he meant the letter of Lord Grey, da'tedthe 30ih November, 1847, with respect to the Bishop of New Zealand. He did not at present refer to that letter in so far as |t was applicable to the conduct of the bishop, .but with regard to the question of titles. He said- — "All that I advised was this — that the theory of the ownership by tribes of unoccupied land should not be made the foundation of any future transactions ; and that what I conceived to be the rights of the Crown, that is of the public (where no engagements to the contrary have been nude) should be carefully attended, to in the disposal of land wherever -no property has yet been recognized." By the term "future transactions," he must understand Lord Grey, till he was otherwise distinctly and positively assured, to mean that they should adhere to the spirit and principle of his instructions, which, though perhaps open to the charge of some grammatical ambiguity in the language, went upon the principle that improvement by labour was the criterion for granting a legal title to the natives for land. (Hear, hear.) In offering some remarks upon this question as respected the bishop, he must take the liberty to make, an appeal of a very distinct and emphatic description to the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Labouchere.) They well recollected, that they, had some discussion on this subject on a for-, mer occasion ; and, if he adverted to it now,, it was not because he was apprehensive of anything with respect to the character of the bishop, or that that right rev. prelate wou^

feel any resentment on account of any reproof •unjustly adminis'iered to him. He believed lie rfight confidently state that his services would be freely given to' the Government, whether he considered himself to have been well or ill used by them, but he (Mr. Gladstone) nevertheless deemed it his duty to refer to one point in which the right rev. prelate had been indisputably, though no doubt •unintentionally subjected to unjust treatment. That right rev. prelate had presented a protest to the Government, in which he expressed his opposition to the construction put by Lord -Grey-on the Treaty of Waitangi, aud stated that he would assist tho natives in asserting and maintaining their legal rights, sanctioned -*by treaty. Now, a great part of* the censure -which Lord Grey bestowed on that protest was founded on the supposition that the bishop published it, and made it known to the natives, and that he did so in the face of the -Government. On a former occasion it appeared to him (Mr. Gladstone) that the bishop had done no such thing ; that the bishop, believing in the perfect consonancy of 'view existing between him and the Governor <of New Zealand, determined to strengthen the Governor's hands, by putting him in pos--session of a document containing an expression of his sentiments; which document 'might be sent to be judged of by the Government at home. Though he had no doubt the "bishop would do all in his power to assist the natives in the assertion of their just rights, yet he believed. him wholly incapable of such imprudence as to publish his protest, especially at a moaient of such excitement among the whole native population. (Hear.) The right hon, gentlemau opposite (Mr. Labouchere)was not, on the occasion when the subject was debated, able to say that the Government had any knowledge whatever that the bishop bad published the document to the people. He did not believe that had done so, -and certainly he regarded the offence, as it had been deemed, of sending it to Government, a very different offence from what such a. line of conduct would have been. He wanted 4o know from the right, hon. gentlejnan opposite whether the bishop published that protest to the natives or not ? It was not in the way of challenge that he asked this, but for the sake of truth and reason. If the bishop did not do so, then seeing that the -censure of Lord Grey proceeded on the ground that be had done it, it was an unjust censure (hear); and- he hoped to live to see >*he time — perhaps it might be a few weeks, or even hours — when some reparation would be made to the bishop for a charge which, if true, would have been serious indeed ; but whick, if not true, demanded the most ample -explanation. (Hear, hear.) He had endeavoured to show, that the despatch of Earl Grey was incompatible with the construction that had been put upon the Treaty of Waitangi ; and he might observe that he would be the last man to invite a gratuitous discussion on this question ; but that the subject was one which gave him no small alarm. He ■trusted that an appeal to justice would be stronger than an appeal to fear in that house ; ■but still, with regard to New Zealand, and the lives of our fellow countrymen settled there, he must say there were grounds for fear, and upon that ground, as well as by an appeal to reason, ought this matter to be discussed. Up to the present moment they practically had held New Zealand, not by the terror of their name or the number of their forces, but by the zealous and loyal assistance of the great majority of the native population. (Hear, hear.) Let the house fix that well in its mind. They were apt 4o think when they heard of a rebellion in New Zealand that it was a dispute between our soldiers and the natives, whereas the fact was that on those occasions our soldiers and •the colonists were uniformly supported by the .great body of the natives. How careful, ought they to be of taking any course which might tend to wean from them the affections -of ihe great body of the people of New Zealand! In the papers distributed yesterday Grey wrote that there had been a great excitement among the native population regarding the waste lands claimed by various chiefs, and he enclosed a letter from ♦Captain Sotheby, in which it was intimated, ■that the intentions of Government in reference to the waste lands " had created much anxiety in the minds of the natives in the northern portion of the island." He alss stated* that alarming accounts had been received from various parts regarding the excitement caused by the proposed introduction of the new constitution, and the steps that were to be taken regarding the registration of the lands. He concluded by stating that he *' feared that the prosperity which was now dawning upon the- country will shortly give place to scenes more gloomy than any which have yet been witnessed." Then they had a letter from Captain Sotheby, informing them of the alarming state of matters ia that important part of the island adjoining -the Bay •of Islands. * He said— '

"Previous to my arriving, Kawiti had come down with about 30 followers to Waka, to know if such was the case, as he considered it to be in open violation of the Treaty of Waitangi, and in direct opposition to what had been the view of his Excellency the Governor ; but Waka eased his mind by telling him there was no truth in in such report, and which I most fully corroborated." He also informed them that another chief* named Tupe, came down, and that to him he gave the assurance, upon the authority of his Excellency the Governor, "that it was not the intention of Government to claim all the land;" and "that no land would be taken excepting with the will and consent of the chiefs and the granting them a provision, but which kind of remuneration the natives don't seem to understand." Captain Sotheby told them of another chief expressing the same anxiety, which he allayed in the same manner. Thus, it was obvious that the anxiety among these chiefs, and which would have led to a civil war in the island, was allayed by the distinct assurance on the parj of those who were understood to represent the Crown that the Treaty of Waitangi would be maintained. (Hear.) He hoped he had said enough to show the grounds of the anxiety which disturbed his mind. He had shown that there was an established construction of the Treaty of Waitangi, according to which the natives were to remain in possession of their lands, without any limitation as to their being improved by labour ; and he had shown enough to excite a fear that, according to the letters and instructions of Lord Grey, that construction was to be departed from, and that the Crown of England was in danger of being exposed to the charge of disregarding its treaties, and at the same time disturbing the peace of the colony. He had shown that this charge had caused alarm in the colony and filled the mind of their manly Governor with apprehension. He had shown how the apprehension in the colony was allayed, viz., by the distinct assurance given to the natives that the treaty of Waitangi would be religiously maintained; and he hoped, therefore, he had shown enough to make it clear that this was no gratuitous discussion arbitrarily introduced on his part. (Hear, hear). There was no person to whom the right hon. gentleman opposite would communicate more lively pleasure than to himself if he could give him the assurance that the doctrine of Governor Grey as to the constitution of the treaty was the doctrine on which it was the intention of her Majesty's Goverment to act. (Hear, hear). He could not but advert to an expression used by Lord Grey in a despatch of the 23rd December, where he alluded to the treaty as " what had been called the treaty of Waitangi." Whether that treaty was a wise arrangement he would not stop to say ; but, whether it was a wise arrangement or not, it was still a treaty (hear, hear) ; and he would say that there was a more strictly binding treaty in existence. He hoped that, in whatever reply the right hon. gentleman might favour him with, be would be as clear and explicit as possible on the points to which he had called his attention. He had shown that there was justice in the claim made by the natives of New Zealand, and he was sure the right hon. gentleman would have every desire to see the fullest justice done to the noble people towards whom we had contracted such large obligations, and of whose allegiance the Queen of England had every reason to be proud. (Hear). Mr. M. Milnes asked if his right hon. friend meant to refer to the northern island ? or whether he meant that the treaty of Waitangi respected the one island as well as the other ? Mr. Gladstone said the whole gist and force of his remarks applied to the northern island, excluding the southern slice. Mr. Labouchere could assure the right hon. gentleman that he could po,t. attach more importance than he did to the conduct of the Government towards the natives of New Zealand being characterized by the most perfect good faith, and the most literal fulfilment of every engagement which they had entered into with them, and that he could not have a stronger sense than he had of the duty, even irrespective of those engagements, which devolved upon the Government of doing everything in their p<£wer to protect the interests and promote the welfare of that people. If anything could add to his wish to see every possible encouragement given to the aboriginal inhabitants, it would b e the accounts that had been recently received of the conduct of that people, the papers containing which had been laid on the table of the house. Every member who had read those papers must have observed in 'what terms Governor Grey and the other persons connected with the colony had spoken of the dispositions of the native inhabitants who had adopted the habits and usages of civilised life, and who had been working as labourers under the guidance of white men. (Hear, hear.) These people were making magnificent roads and engaging in other kinds

of labour that would do honour to any civilized country, while the tractable disposition they showed, and their readiness to amalgamate with Europeans, were unexampled among any other of the savage tribes with which they were acquainted. There were at present 60 small coasting vessels owned by natives of New Zealand ; a proof of the industry with which they were ready to follow the pursuits of civilized life. The right hon. gentleman stated that he had experienced great alarm in consequence of the language held by the noble Secretary of State for the Colonies on a question which had undoubtedly given rise to great irritation and great jealousy in that country — he meant the land claims. He did not believe, however, that the apprehensions the right hon. gentleman had expressed were in reality justified by the facts of the case. He believed his noble friend at the head of the Colonial office would be as reluctant as himself, in the first place, not strictly to adhere to the terms of the treaty of Waitangi, and not to concede to the natives their claim of any land to which they were entitled. At the same time he thought, for the sake of the native inhabitants themselves, no course would be moie inexpedient than absolutely to affirm that a proprietary right existed on the part either of tribes or individual members of those tribes, to the whole of the surface of New Zealand. (Hear.) The islands of New Zealand consisted of 55,000,000 of acres while the native population was not more than 100,000. It was not in New Zealand as in North America, where the inhabitants subsisted by means of the chase. There were no four footed animals except pigs and rats in New Zealand, and the inhabitants never subsisted by hunting, as did the North American Indians. What then could be more preposterous and absurd than to suppose that these 100,000 persons could have any sort of claim over such an extent of country 1 The hou. gentleman stated that he did not controvert the general and abstract view of the doctrines laid down by Earl Grey on the rights of the aboriginal inhabitants, as contra-distinguished from those of civilized society, but he intimated that there was something in Earl Grey's despatch and instructions that was inconsistent with the treaty of Waitangi. Now he did not think that such was the case ; nor did he think there was any material difference between Lord Grey and Governor Grey as to the way in which the treaty of Waitangi should be carried out, or on* the general question asto the way in which the natives should be ufced. If he had' intended to defend the course taken by Lord Grey he would have quoted just the very passage that the right hon. gentleman had read, in which the abstract view of the question was stated. And surely it was important that Government should keep in view what was eternally and fundamentally true in such matters as these. But the right hon. gentlemen said that what chiefly excited his apprehension was a passage in the instructions. Now, he thought the right hon. gentleman did not sufficiently attend to the force of some particular words in those instructions, or he would have seen that, so far from bearing the interpretation he put upon them they had a very different meaning. It appeared to him that the passage limited strictly the proprietary rights belonging either to a tribe or any individual to those cases in which labour of some sort or another had been expended upon the land. Hs thought there could be no right of property in the natives entitling them to set up a claim to land unless they could prove that they expended labour on that land. The passage did not bear the construction put upon it by the right hon. gentleman. Words were introduced which plainly showed that where the natives from use and other grounds possessed a fair and bond fide title, the Local Government was bound to accede to their claims. The instructions accompanying the New Zealand charter declared that no claim should,be admitted unless it were established that either by some act of the Executive Government or the adjudication of some court of competent jurisdiction, the right had been acknowledged and ascertained, or " that the claimants, or their progenitors, or those from whom they derived their title, had actually had the occupation of the lands so claimed, and had been accustomed to use and enjoy the same either as places of abode, or for tillage, or for the growth of crops, or for the depasturing of cattle, or otherwise for the convenience and sustentation of life, by means of labour expended thereupon." He dissented from the construction of the right hon. gentleman, and did not think the words " by means of labour expended thereupon" were to be read in the connexion suggested by the right hon. gentleman. The treaty of Waitangi was a document of which the New Zealand Government would be bound to take cognizance ; and he did not believe that they had excluded from any bond fide possession of land any New Zealand tribe or any individual, even though there was not labour actu-' ally expended upon it. He (Mr. Labouchere) believed in the first instance that the treaty of

Waitangi ought to be strictly, scro|glo*fsly, and even largely interpreted, that every bond fide claim which the aboriginal inhabitants could put forward under it ought to be liberally conceded, in justice as well as in sound policy. But he did not think that under colour of the expression they should be allowed to hold large tracts of land which they could put to no use, thereby obstructing the progress of the colony. He did not believe that on this subject there was any real difference of opinion between Governor Giey and Earl Grey. He believed that Governor Grey would carry out the instructions ; and by the discretion, good sense, and experience applied to the administration of the colony, he (Mr. Labouchere) entertained sanguine hopes that this perplexing, harassing, and most dangerous question would be brought to a satisfactory issue. A passage had just been pointed out to him which bore on this subject, and which would be found at page 84 of the papers printed in Derember. In commenting on the letter of the Bishop, Earl Grey said, — " If the bishop had consulted the instructions accompanying the charter, which were published with it, and which really contain the practical directions to the local government, which my despatch was only intended to illustrate, he would there have found the greatest attention paid to the maintenance of everything which can be called an existing native right to land, though established in consequence of the prevalence of that mistaken theory which I have combated. The protector of the aborigines is there directed to inform the registrar respecting all lands within his district to which the natives, '* either as tribes or individuals," claim either proprietary or possessory title ; that all such claims shall be registered ; and that wherever it shall be shown, either that such lands have been actually occupied by the natives, or that the ownership to such lands, although unoccupied, has been recognised by the executive or judicial authorities to be vested in the natives, such claim shall be finally and conclusively admitted." In a despatch from Governor Grey, recently received by Earl Grey, he found an allusion made to this subject : — " These complaints, and the request for the investigation of claims, were made in the districts in which the missionaries are the principal land claimants ; and your lordship will see that Captain Sotheby states, that some of the young men spoke in a most determined manner, and threatened to take the law into their own hands. Captain Sotheby's observations quite accord with all the information which has reached me from other sources; and I can only trust that my being able shortly to conclude some definite and amicable arrangement with the land claimants in the north, may for ever set these exciting .questions at rest." Governor Grey had a confident expectation that be would be able to bring those matters to a practical, final, and satisfactory conclusion. The right hon. gentleman spoke of the bill before the house as consisting of two parts, one enacting and the other suspending. He approved of the enacting part of the bill ; but, with regard to the suspending part, which applied to the constitution of New Zealand, and which empoweted the Governor to introduce that constitution, if he saw reason, either into the half, or the whole, or into portions of New Zealand, the right hon. gentleman expressed a strong opinion that it would be better to repeal that constitution. He (Mr.Labouchere) did not think that an advisable course. What was the situation in which the house stood as regarded this question ? That house had deliberately, and after discussion, passed a bill by which they gave free representative institutions to the colony of New Zealand. The Governor of New Zealand expressed great apprehensions as to the effect of introducing those institutions at the present moment ; but, Parliament having thus deliberately and solemnly pronounced an opinion on the point, whether free institutions should be extended to those islands or not, he (Mr. Labouchere) deprecated the idea of the house taking any course at variance with that decision. Power was given to the Governor of New Zealand, at any time within the next five years, to introduce those institutions. The whole question might again be submitted to the consideration of Parliament ; but his own expectation and hope was, that long before that period had elapsed the Governor, by communications with the natives, might prepare the way, and, seeing a proper opportunity, find himself able to introduce those institutions either at once into both divisions of New Zealand, or into such parts of the colony as might be judged advisable. This was a much more convenient course than the repeal of a measure so deliberately taken. There was one question more to which he (Mr. Labouchere) adverted with pain'; but, since the right hon. gentleman had again renewed the discussion on that point, he felt that he could" not pass it by. The question was that relating to the conduct of the Bishop of New Zealand. The right hon. gentleman asked if any additional information had been received by the Government' as to the conduct of the bishop, and if they knew whether he had taken means to promulgate his opinions: to the natives ?