Thursday, July 29th, 1847.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume III, Issue 213, 14 August 1847, Page 3

Thursday, July 29th, 1847.

Present— His Excellency the Governor, and all the Members, except Mr. Domett. The minutes of the last meeting were read and confirmed. Sale of Spirits Bill. The Attorney-General said, that though charged with the conduct of this bill, he regretted that the duty of moving its second reading had not been u idertaken by some honourable member entertaining stronger views of the practicability of legislating on the subject. The reason which had prevented the Government from legislating on this subject at an earlier period, was the disinclination they entertained to make any distinction in legislating between the two races of her Majesty's subjects ; to abstain in fact, from passing any enactment tending to make any invid.ous distinction between them. The difficulty of legislating efficiently on such a subject, had also had its weight with the Government, in preventing them from earlier making the attempt. \1 ith the view of meeting the first objection, namely, that of making an exception at law exclusively for the natives without their own concurrence, he would move, when the Bill was in Committee, that instead of the clause bringing the Bill into operation throughout the colony on a fixed day, a clause to the effect that it should come into operation in such dislricts only as the Governor might appoint, being first thereunto moved by the principal native inhabitants of such distiict. By this means, he the Attorney-Ge-neral thought, that the influence of the natives might be gradually brought indirectly into operation on subjects concerning their own welfare. It would probably be a considerable time before, under the provisions of the New Charter, the natives would acquire any considerable degree of political power, but it required no special law to give them some previous training, with a view to the beneficial exercise of such privileges. For instance, there appeared to him (the Attorney-General), no reason whatever, why, when the Legislature might vote any particular sum for the general benefit of the native race, the Governor might not call together the principal chiefs of the district, to explain to them his own views, as to the most advantageous means of applying such monies, and endeavour by explanation and argument to secure their intelligent and willing co-operation in carrying those views into effect. And so with the present measure ; if it should, on its provisions being explained to them, oppose itself to the natives of any particular district, then, under the authority of the c ause he (the AttorneyGeneral) proposed to add to the Bill, the Governor would have the power of bringing it into operation in such district. In this manner one of the difficulties it appeared to him might be overcome. The other difficulty was, however after all, perhaps, the greater. Was it possible, by any legislative enactment, to prevent intemperance ? But whatever might be the difficulties of legislating on the subject, he should give his hearty concurrence in aiding the Council to frame the measure in such a manner as would mcst certainly secure the objects which they must all entertain — the preservation of the native race from the baneful effects ol intemperance. Mr. Donnelly would have hern pleased that the advocacy of the real principle of this very important measure had I'een committed to the learned Attorney-General, if that learned gentleman had taken the same view of the means of carrying it out, that he had taken himself. He believed the principle of the Dill to be, the prevention of the depravation of the native race, by the use of intoxicating liquors.

He was aware of the difficulty of legislating upon such a subject, and quite convinced that it would be dangerous to attempt legislation upon such a subject for civilised men, long accustomed to indulge themselves in the use of intoxicating draughts, and generally able to restrain themselves in such indulgence. In the case of the aboriginal inhabitants of this colony, however, the subject presented itself in a very different way. They were of all races upon the earth, probably most averse by nature to the use of intoxicating liquors, their instinctive disgust to such liquors was too well known to be dwelt upon. Hitherto, only a very small portion of the whole native population had been partially depraved in this w ay, the general mass was at this moment wholly uncontaminated. It was therefore not 'only practicable to legislate upon the subject before the Council, but the imperative duty of the Council to do so without delay. But he thought that the means of accomplishing this object, which are adopted in the bill, are absurd, incapable of being carried out, and directly ca'culated to defeat the object at which they aim, — they are absurd, because while they prohibit altogether the use of spirituous liquors, and therefore strike at the root of one species of intoxication, they permit the use of fermented liquor to any amount not producing intoxication. Without the introduction of hair-splitting, or verbal quibbling, into a subject of such moment, without attempting to measure things incapable of measurement, or to apply the rule and line to things which cannot be placed in juxta-position with them, it was perfectly certain, that while intoxication by the use of spirituous liquor was prohibited by the bill, an habitual state of body and mind, arising out of the use of fermented liquors, fully as mischievous and fatal in its effects, though perhaps not always so inconvenient to the public at large, was openly permitted. That species of intoxication which produces violence and turbulence was prohibited, while that which produces a dull and mopish suspension of the mental faculties was tolerated ; that species of intoxication which resembles insanity was prohibited, while that which resembles stolid idiocy was conuived at. The means proposed in the bill, for carrying out the object aimed at, could not be practised. For, no person charged before a bench of -Magistrates, with being instrumental in producing the intoxication of a native, by thesale of fermented liquor to him, could be justly convicted. Every such person could successfully plead in his defence, that he could not tell the precise quantity of any particular kind of fermented liquor which would produce the intoxication of any particular native, that unless he was furnished •with the capacity of every particular native for every particular species of fermented liquor, it would be impossible for him to conform his conduct to the law, and that he ought not therefore to be punished for an offence which he had no means of avoiding with any even tolerable certainty. Further, the proposed means were directly calculated to defeat the object at which they aimed. For, habitual indulgence in the use of fermented liquor will, even if we suppose it innocent, inevitably produce a craving desire after the more charming and lively delirium produced by the use of spirituous liquor, and a high degree of irritation and discontent at the prohibition of this more exciting indulgence. There was another mode of viewing the subject, which would place the defects of the bill in a prominent form before the Council. He, (Mr. Donnelly), believed, that it was never proved either from reason or experience, that even the temperate use of intoxicating liquors, was necessary or useful to the body or mind, — on the contrary, be believed, that the opposite position had been long supported, with triumphant success, and it was by no means visionary to suppose, that the truth of this latter position would at no very distant date be impressed by the industry and the labouis of Total Abstinence Societies, upon the minds of the great mass of civilised men. In these days, civilised States might legislate upon the subject, now before the Council, and they might with great propriety employ the means proposed in the bill for accomplishing their object ; the transition from the use of spiritous to the use of fermented liquors, from worse to bad, or from bad to better, would then be proper and perfectly intelligible. But in the case of a race, the great mass of which was at this moment unaccustomed to indulgence in the use of either species of liquor; the only plan for preventing their depravation by the use of intoxicating liquors, was plainly a total prohibition of the use of them. Would not any man of common sense, who read this bill, and was acquainted with the people who were to be affected by it, at once exclaim, that if the Government wished to make the natives adepts in drunkenness they had adopted the proper means of doing so, by permitting in the first instance — and by way of initiation — indulgence in the use of fermented liquors ? The honourable member concluded by observing, that he thought the bill before the Couucil a subject of vital im-

portance to the native race^ not merely by itself, but because it was obvious that the success of all other measures for the improvement of the race would depend very much upon the nature of their legislation upon the subject now before them. Mr. Brown said that the council, he was sure, would agree that the prohibition intended by the bill should be made as effective as possible for the accomplishment of the end in view. He could see no better way of carrying out the intentions of the bill than by an entire prohibition — subject to modifications which might be left in the hands of Government to be exercised by them at discretion. The Colonial Secretary said that he thought the measure was one that should not pass in its present shape. He did not see how it was practicable to enforce such restrictions, and he did not think it was politic to enact them. The natives, he believed, would be more apt to be tempted to partake of that which was forbidden, than if they had unrestricted access to it. He was of opinion that the evil should he met by moral force and example, instead of by legal restrictions. If it was necessary to prohibit the natives from partaking of these liquors, it was surely also necessary to prohibit Europeans. He hoped, however, that the introduction of a proper system of education amongst the natives would be the means of so enlightening them, as to save them from the consequences of indulging in intoxicating liquors ; and that, in the mean time, the bench of magistrates should take care that publicans who were in the habit of selling to the natives, should be deprived of their licenses. The Governor said that when he laid the bill upon the table the other day, he had stated, that he felt there were several difficulties surrounding the measure, that he would be glad if the council could assist him to remove. He could not help now observing that there, in that council, were assembled a number of English gentlemen, legislating for a race of men, who themselves were possessed of a degree of intelligence that he had seldom seen excelled, and they, at the present at least, had no voice in constructing regulations which so materially concerned their own interests. The Government had already taken steps, in granting bush licenses, to prevent the sale of spirits to natives, beyond the limits of the town, by making the holding of the license conditional upon the refusal to sell ; — but in the towns, Government could not interfere without a law enabling them to prohibit licensed publicans from selling to the native people. He thought that for our own protection the absolute prohibition, within the towns, should be made at once. There might be a preamble affixed to the bill, which would point out that the natives were not to be made amenable to distinctive laws, other than those which were intended for their own advantage; and the word "give," which occurred in the bill, might be erased — for he thought that cases might occur where it would be harmless to present native chiefs with a glass of wine. Such cases had occurred ; under his own observation on board her Majesty's ships, when it was found necessary to give the native chiefs a little indulgence of this kind, which was always taken, and indeed looked for, as a mark of courtesy. In such cases, he thought, they could hardly interfere — but he would make an absolute prohibition as regards the sale to the natives by ] ersons licensed to retail these liquors ; and, also, prevent others from giving such drinks in exchange for labour. Mr. Donnelly thought that the word " give," which his Excellency wished to expunge, was the most important word in the bill, and if that word was left out, then all the other provisions would most certainly prove ineffectual. A native desiring these liquors might easily procure them by stratagem — it would be easy to give the money to a white friend who, from courtesy or civility, could readily purchase from the publican, and supply the native, without any lisk of incurring any ptnahy under this bill. He thought it better to leave the word as it stood, and there would be little danger of the Governor, or such persons as him, being brought before the bench for performing such marks of courtesy as his Excellency had referred to. The Governor thought that persons acting for the natives, in the manner referred to by Mr. Donnelly, would be puni&hable ; but if the word " give" were allowed to remain in the bill, he for one, would not run the risk of breaking it — he should lather be the first to give the example of obeying the law to the full extent of its meaniug. After several suggestions from the various members, the committee was adjourned to Saturday.

Gunpowder Bill. The Colonial Secretary rose to move the second reading of the Gunpowder Bill, and said that its purport was' to prohibit persons "within the limits of towns from keeping on hand large quantities of gunpowder so as to endanger the safety of surrounding property.

The council went into committee on the hill, ami after deliberating on its several clauses, further consideration was postponed to Saturday. The Governor laid on the table, a Bill to authorise the Government to establish ti Paper Currency. The council adjourned to Saturday, the 31st July.