LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume III, Issue 144, 16 December 1846, Page 3

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

Thursday, October 15. Present. — All the members. The Council resumed in committee on the Destitute Persons Relief Bill. The Attorney-General suggested that a minimum as well as a maximum sum should be fixed to be paid by fathers for the support of their illegitimate children, and he proposed three shillings for the former and ten shillings for the latter sum. The Governor thought that three shillings was too much ; the sum should not be higher than was charged at the Bishop's school, or at the Wesleyan Native Institution. The sums of two shillings and sixpence, and ten shillings were agreed to. Upon the suggestion of Mr. Domett, a conversation arose as to the propriety of compounding with parents who were about to leave the colony. " And it was agreed that a clause should be introduced to regulate the amount proper to be paid under such circumstances. Mr. Domett proposed a new clause for the purpose of having half-caste children, of illegitimate birth, placed in the custody of European females, to be brought up. This he considered essential, in order that the other parts of the bill might operate. The bill provided that at a certain age the children should be bound apprentice to some trade, but who, he would ask, would be willing to take a boy ■who had been brought up among the natives, and bad heen bred to all the usages of savage life. The further consideration of the bill was , left over till Friday. The Attorney-General moved the second reading of the Customs Amendment Bill. He said that the present measure was not intended to alter, but to amend, the existing law. Provision was made by this -bill for landing goods at certain .places to be appointed by the Gove/nor, and, that was the rule in other colonies at the present time. In Auckland such regulation would be necessary, for where the beach extended so far, goods could be landed •without the cognisance of the Officers of Customs. With regard to that part of the bill which related to the unlading of cattle, be would say that some such rule was necessary in order to prevent accidents occurring from | cattle being landed in the several bays, where it was often dangerous for females to pass along at the time. He considered that it would be very desirable that a landing place should be appointed, for the lading and unlading of goods, at which the Custom-house officer could conveniently be in constant at- | tendance. The bill was also intended to secure the proper valuation of goods imported into the colony. The old ordinance was not lust so *tring*nt as to prevent defrauds upou the revenue ; but he was happy to say that no instance of the kind had been known in this part of the colony. The bill aiso improved the old measure with regard to the means of

detecting smuggled goods, and he thought that, altogether it was calculated to have a beneficial effect. With these observations he would leave the bill for the consideration of the council. Mr. Donnelly admitted that the principle of the bill was good, and proper ; but he considered that the 28th clause of the old ordinance should be repealed altogether, if the bill passed as it now stood he could see no distinction between clause 4 of the new bill, and the 28th clause of the old, and should ihey both remain co-existent, the working of the measure would be rendered incomplete, and considerable confusion would accrue. The Attorney-General replied to Mr. Donnelly's objection, and the bill was committed. Mr. Kennedy remarked, upon the first clause, that the word " lading" should be left out. Persons sending off goods to vessels, had to take advantage of the tides, and as there were no regular quays or wharfs yet erected, he thought that the bill should not interfere with the lading of vessels. The Colonial Secretary thought that the word might stand, and that the matter could be regulated by the Governor's Proclamation. The Attorney-General said, that there should be fixed hours for the discharging of vessels. Mr. Kennedy thought that that would also be objectionable, anil the public had the facilities of proper wharfs or quays. The Governor said, that New Zealand was unfortunate in not having the advantage of advice from the law officers in England, who were well versed in Customs regulations all over the world, Other colonies had had the benefit of such advice, but here the Government was deprived of such guidance in consequence of the frequent changes which had taken place in the Customs regulations of the colony. The law officers at home had furnished the various colonies with a letter of instructions how to act, and a very excellent document it was ; but the reports which bad been sent home from Njw Zealand of the likelihood of insurrection resulting from the maintainance of Customs establishments in the colony, had led these officers to believe that their instructions could not be carried out in this country ; and hence arose the imperfections of the old ordinances. The first clause was then agreed to. Mr. Donnelly suggested an adjournment of M;he committee, that the Council might have time to consider the measure. The Governor had no objection to an adjournment ; he was also desirous to give the bill a little more consideration ; but he would remind the Council that the management and control of the Customs was in the hands of a central board in England, and that very little authority could be exeicised over that department by the local Government. In the event of anything occurring, which might be considered unjust, there existed a most impartial tribunal at home, appointed to receive appeals ; and he believed that a more equitable tribunal did not exist in the world than the law officers appointed, to receive such appeals. He therefore considered that no unjust or unfair treatment would be likely to ensue from Customs officers in the execution oi their duty. Mr. Domett enquired if the sth clause had been taken from the English Ace. The Attorney-General replied that it was copied from a VanDiemeu's Land Ordinance. Mr. Domett thought it would be wise to avoid the introduction of the laws of convict colonies into this country. In such colonies it no doubt was advisable to enact very strict laws, but these laws were of too arbitrary a character to be made applicable to a free country like New Zealand. Several other clauses were discussed, and the further consideration of the bill was postponed. The Coroners Bill, the Naval and Military Officers' Wines Bill, and the Prisons Bill, were read a third time and passed. The Governor laid on the table two returns, which were moved for by Mr. Donnelly on Tuesday last. Council adjourned,.

Friday, October 16th. Present — All the Members. The Governor laid on the table a return, moved for by Mr. Donnelly, which together with others that had been called for by the same honorable member, were ordered to be printed. The Attorney- General moved the further consideration of the Customs Amendment Bill. In reply to some observations from Mr. Donnelly upon the fourth clause, which refers to the 28th clause of the existing ordinance, The Governor said, that by the 28th clause of the Customs Ordinance which provides for the impost of an Ad Valorem duty upon imported goods, he understood that the goods should be rated according to their value at the port of entry, and not, as .had been the practice hitherto, according to their value at the port of exportation. This rule, he believed,

was observed both in New South Wales and Hobart Town. The Colonial Secretary agreed with the Governor. He stated that instances had come to his knowledge of entries having been passed for goods, the declared value of which was below the cost price of the articles in England. Mr. Kennedy obje< ted to this interpretation put upon the Ordinance by the Governor. He conceived his E>cellency was in error respecting the practice in New South Wales and Hobart Town. He considered that such an interpretation, if carried out, would entail grievous burdens upon the consumer. The merchants would not suffer, but the community at large would be subjected to a very heavy indirect tax. He argued against the view taken by his Excellency, upon the ground of the instability of the Auckland market. Taking for example the case of an importer of sugar, an article constantly fluctuating in value, he remarked that such persons might be called upon to' pay duty upon a consignment of sugar to-day, when the article was scarce, and high in price, and the next day a large supply might arrive, the price and the duty might fall together, and the unfortunate importer of yesterday would be unable to dispose of his commodity on equal terms with others, in consequence of the high rate of duty that had been exacted from him. He was much surprised at the observations that had fallen from the Colonial Secretary. The Honorable member should recollect, that he was not only casting imputations upon the conduct of the merchants of Auckland, but also, by implication, preferring serious charges against the Collector of Customs. The Attorney- General thought that the Colonial Secretary was labouring under some misapprehension. He, the Attorney-Gene-ral, believed no acts of evasion of the kind al luJed to, could have escaped the vigilance of Mr. D'Arch, than whom, a more active and efficient officer was not to be found in her Majesty's service. The Governor admitted that there was some weight in the objections raised by Mr. Kennedy on account of the fluctuating value of goods ih this market, but he still thought the present system very unsatisfactory and unequal. He thought that the difficulty might be obviated by publishing weekly in the Government Gazette, a true wholesale price current. Cases might frequently occur, of goods being of less value here than in England, and the importers would nnturally seek to avail themselves of this circumstance when declaring to their entries, He, the Governor, was firmly persuaded that the true intent of the ordinance would not sanction the system at present adopted. Mr. Kennedy said, that if such were his Excellency's decided opinion, he would move that the further consideration of this bill be postponed until Monday, 19th inst., which was agreed to. The Weights and Measures Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday. The Destitute Persons Relief Bill was ordered for further consideration also on Monday. Council adjourned till Monday.

Monday, October 19. Present — His Excellency the Governor, Colonial Secretary, Attorney General, Colonial Treasurer, and W. Donnelly, A. Domett, and A. Kennedy, Esqrs. Customs Amendment Bill. The Council wont into committee on this bill, on the motion of the Attorney General, who said, from what had passed when the bill was last before the Council, it appeared that a difference.of opinion existed as to whether goods liable to duty should be valued at the cost price at the place of export, or that of importation. Now, whatever the law was on this subject, it should be clearly understood ; and that it was not so, appeared evident from the various opinions held on the subject. In the first place, then, it was necessary to declare the law, and to make it very clear what that law was. He, the Attorney General, would therefore propose that a declaratory clause should be appended to the bill, which clause should settle the matter, and fix the duties liable to be paid at the rate of value at the place of importation. He contended that such was in accordance with the existing law, and that common sense dictated that it should be so.' That such w.as the existing law, would be seen from the 28th clause of the Customs Ordinance, which was pissed in June, 1841, in which the declaration to be made- by importers of goods liable to duty, is set forth, ai follows : "I, A. B. do hereby declare that the articles mentioned in the entry, and contained in the packages, ( ) are of the vaj ue o f ." Now, the word " value" gave rise to some ambiguity on the matter, as to whether that value was to be taken on the invoice price, or from the current prices at the port of entry ; but the words " are oi" which occurred in the declaration, were in the present tense, and, to his mind, clearly referred to the current value at the time and place

of entry. By the same clause of the ordinance, the Collector was empowered, when it appeared to him that goods were undervalued, to require the importer, or his agent, to make oath as to their real value ; or if the invoice price was unknown, the Governor was empowered to appoint two competent persons to ascertain the real value of the goods ; and the whole object of these enquiries was, in order to arrive at the proper valuation of the goods at the place of importation. Such appeared to him to be th.c law as it now stood ; and it was also the common sense interpretation of it. It was further provided, that, in the event of the Coliector being dissatisfied, as to the real account of the value being given, he could first ascertain the proper invoice price, and then, after 10 per cent being added charge duty thereon. Now, this might be applied a* follows: — Supposing that a box of clothes were imported from Bond-street, the value of which could not here be properly ascertained, the importer could then be called on to produce his bill of costs, to which 10 per cent* could be added, and the matter brought to a decision by charging duty accoiding to the jjlus^amount. In other cases it would be unjust and difficult to fix duties by the invoice guide. He would instance a case that occurred in Western Australia, where a person had imported a piano forte, but finding no demand for it, he turned the piano, which was there valueless, into a cupboard. He would then ask the council, would it have been fair to have charged «luty upon this article by its cost in London? Again, in Calcutta, ice was a great luxury, and much in demand ; and if the principle of duty upon that article was fixed at the invoice price, why this luxury might be indulged in at very small cost ; for ice was of very little value from whence it was exported. Honorable members present might remember that the price of sawn timber in Auckland had varied from thirty shillings to six shillings per 100 feet, and had any exporter sent a cargo to England when the price was thirty shillings, would it not have been monstrous to have charged a duty upon the timber at the port of London according to its value at Auckland the port of shipment ? But in England, tha practice was the same as he now contended for ; and he would instance the article of tea, imported from beyond the East India Company's possessions. Was duty claimed upon that article according to its price at the place of export? On the contiary, the Customs officers of England invariably refused to receive the duties, until after the tea was sold at auction, and the proper value of it thus ascertained, and according to that valuation was ihe duty fixed. Now, having proved, as he thought most satisfactorily, what the law was, and having adduced reasons to show that it should exist — he was now desirous that the Customs Ordinance should be made intelligible, in order to avoid future inaccurate interpretations. The Ordinance as it now stood, demands duty to be paid, according to value, but it did not provide from whence that, value was to be taken ; — he woull therefore conclude by proposing that a declaratory clause should be embodied in the bill before the council, which he imagined would obviate all future uncertainty as to the meaning and intention of the Ordinance being, that duties should be charged at the rate of value at the port of entry. Mr. Donnelly rose to oppose the motion of the learned Attorney- General. Upon looking at the Customs Ordinance, he saw nothing of a vague character in its provisions, that called for such a clause as was just proposed. If bis learned friend had given the subject ft little more consideration, instead of hunting after such far fetched instances as those of the piano forte and the Calcutta ice, he might have saved himself the trouble of bringing forward such a motion as the one he had pro* posed to the Council. There was one thing clear to him, Mr. Donnelly, that if a declaratory clause was required here — it would also be necessary that the same kind of declaration should be added to the law elsewhere. Tht 28th clause of the Customs Ordinance appeared to him most clear and definite in fixing the value to be taken at the place of importation — indeed, so plain and intelligible was the ! ordinance upon the subject, that he consider- : ed a declaratory clause, such as was proposed by the Attotriey-General, would be a reflection upon the understanding of <he inhabitants. — cThe honourable member called upon his Excellency and the Council distinctly to obi serve the clauses of the ordinance that related ed to the valuation of gopds, and how and by what guide such value, was to be ascertained. ! — He then went through those various clauses, I commenting upon each, and contending that i the meaning and substance of the ordinanct clearly established the fact that duties were chargeable at the rate of v^alue which goods obtained at the „ place of import; and h« thought that no intelligent human being, who exercised his mind on the subject would come to any other conclusion. Mr. % < Kennedy said, he, agreed with the i learned Attorney-General, that .the question

should at once be set at rest. However, the practice adopted in other countries was very different from that which was contended for by the Attorney-General, and his learned friend Mr. Donnelly. In British America the valuation was taken from the port of entry, and in Sydney, the produce of New Zealand, which was there liable to impart duties, was rated according to its value in this colony. But the arguments which had been adduced by the Attorney-General in support of his view of the system of taxation, were by no means applicable to this colony — they might be more properly applied to large communities, who were not so dependant upon foreign markets for their supplies. Here the fluctuation in the value of commodities was often very rapid, and no certain 'fixed value could be relied on, consequently it would be very difficult to ascertain the true value of goods, and the uncertain and unfixed nature of the tax would be surrounded with corresponding difficulty and inconvenience. The honourable member quoted passages from Adam Smith's "Wealth of Nations," to prove the necessity of taxation being fixed aocording to certain intelligible rates. The Governor observed, that he was desirous to offer a few remarks upon the subject before the Council. His Excellency confessed that he could add but very little to what had already been said by the learned Attorney-General, and by the other learned member ' Mr. Donnelly. The law had been so clearly explained, and set forth with such precision', as to leave no doubt upon his .mind as to the meaning of the ordinance. His remarks should therefore be confined to what had fallen frem the honorable member for Auckland, who had stated that the practice he had contended for was customary in other colonies. Now he (the Governor) w v as compelled to be so 'Uncourteous as to contradict that statement. He held in his hand a New South Wales Government Gazette of 1843, in which was published the opinion of the law officers of that colony upon the subject of duties ; and they declared that the port of entry was the place at which goods Jiable to duty should be valued. The two learned members who had addressed the Council, had also given their opinion upon the law as existing in New ■-Zealand ; so that the law here and elsewhere is the same, the practice only had hitherto differed. The hon. member had very ingeni-, -ously introduced a maxim of Adam Smith. NoW he (the Governor) maintained that the •principle laid dcftvn by Adam Smith was fulfilled in this colony. Here,' articles of luxury were alone taxed \o any amount, and people had it in their own power to regulate their contributions to the public revenue. For instance, when a man chose to partake of a glass of spirits, drink a bottle of wine, or smoke his pipe of tobacco, he knew what amount of revenue he was contributing to the colony — and thus had complete control over his taxation. The only effective argument brought by the hon. member, was the objection to duties being fixed at the place of import in consequence of the fluctuating character of valuation in New Zealand 5 but really, the matter would not be so very difficult to arrange as might appear to the hon. member, the average wholesale price might be taken for a guide ; and the Collector of Customs, who would have a very good knowledge of the current value of goods, would not make any unreasonable or vexatious demands upon the fair and straightforward importer. Mr. Kennedy said, that it appeared he had been .misinformed as to New South Wales, but he was satisfied the practice for which he .contended was customary in other colonies. Mr. Domett observed that although the law -was very explicit, yet if any alteration was to be made in the practice which had been customary, it would^e a question of additional 'taxation, and he would advise the Council not to interfere. If the law had hitherto been improperly inforced, and the Government thought fit now to carry it out by placing additional taxation upon the inhabitants, why, he would let the Executive bear whatever odium would result from the alteration. Mr. Donnelly said, that the alteratien would only be reverting to the old system that had been in operation before the present Collectqr of Customs came into office. The Attorney-General thanked the two hon. members, Messrs. Donnelly and Domett, who had supported him in his view of the existing law ; but with regard to Mr. Donnelly's assertion, no human being could misunderstand the ordinance, he would refer the hon. member to two important " human beings" who did differ from him in their opinion of the law — one was the Collector of Customs himself, and the other the hon. member who ■represented the commercial interests of Auckland. He, the Attorney-General, thanked the bon. member, Mr. Kennedy, for his quotation from Adam Smith; and it was in his desire to agree with the maxim of that writer, and make the law as explicit as possible, that he had prepared the declaratory clause for the consideration of the Council.

Mr. Donnelly said, the Attorney-General was very fond of adverting to small and unimportant matters, while he as invariably left the main arguments adduced against him untouched and unanswered. What he, Mr. Donnelly said was, that the law was plain, and so easily comprehended, that no intelligent being, who would give the matter a thought, could possibly misunderstand it. The Governor said, he had paid considerable sums of money into the Customs here since his arrival, and in so doing had yielded obedience to the law, as it stood. He did not think any odium could fairly fall upon the Government for declaring the existing law, but a contrary course, he considered, would be decidedly blameable. The Colonial Treasurer considered that it would be bat just and fair to the communtiy, that the law should be declared. The Colonial Secretary thought, as two opinions existed on the law, a declaration was nscessary. The Attorney General still contended that the existing law required somthing to make it clear and comprehensive. The case had been fully made out as to what the law was, but it was necessary on account of difference of opinion to declare it. Mr. Kennedy remarked that the practice had superseded the law. Mr. Donnelly had no objection to a notice emanating from the Governor being published in the Gazette, but he certainly wonld oppose the Council taking any pact in the declaration. The Governor said the Council seemed desirous to make a martyr of him, but he had no ebjection to be sacrificed for the public duty he had to fulfil. Mr. Domett thought that some time should be given to -the people to prepare for the change. He considered that twelve months warning would be necessary to prevent inconvenience. The Governor replied, and said that it was his duty to administer the law as he found it, A former Legislative Council had bound him by their Act, and the present could loose him' and bind him afresh. If the Council desired to have the law altered, their proper course was to address htm, requesting him to bring in a bill to that effect ; but he would advise the Council not to take such a course. On looking at the Customs Ordinance, he saw the probability of a considerable revenue at no distant period being raised by it, and he had -so represented it to the home Government. On that ground considerable pecuniary assistance had been granted to the Colony ; but if the Ordinance was restricted in its operation, no such revenue would be realized by it as he had calculated on. Indeed he had been contemplating to increase the taxes, believing ' ! that the Colony could now well afford to pay them. And if additional revenue was raised in the Colony, and not expended improperly, but applied to public improvement, very great benefit would result, and many emig.rants might be thereby induced to resort to these shores. Mr. Domett said he did not ask the Governor to alter the law ; the case was just the reverse, for the Council had been called to change a practice which had been in existence. After some further discussion upon the clauses, the words " place of import" was introduced in lieu of the Attorney General's declaratory clause, and the word " cattle" was erased from the bill altogether. After some other trifling amendments the committee adjourned ; the report was brought up, and the bill ordered to be read a third time on the following day.