LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Saturday, October 10, 1846.

New Zealand Spectator and Cook's Strait Guardian, Volume III, Issue 141, 5 December 1846, Page 3

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Saturday, October 10, 1846.

Present — His Excellency the Governor, Colonial Secretary, Attorney General, Colonial Treasurer, and W. Donnelly, A. Domett, and A. Kennedy, Esqrt. Mr. Donnelly moved the order of the day for resuming, in committee, the Sheriff's

Office Bill, the consideration of which had been postponed from the previous day* that the Governor might 'examine the Table of Fees. The Governor said, that upon consideration of that part of the Bill which related tb fees, he had come to the conclusion that it would be better to exclude any fixed scale; and leave it open to be arranged from time to time as the circumstances of each district required. It would hot, he said, be judicious to make one general scale for the entire Colony ; and if the Bill was passed without the Table of Fees attached to it, then, the Executive could fix such fees from time to time, 3S would be found requisite. After some observations from the Attorney General, the 12th Clause, and the Schedule, were struck out of the Bill ; and it was ordered to be read a third time on Monday. Mr. Kennedy moved the order of the day for the second reading of the Prisons' Bill, but upon the motion of Mr. Donnelly, it was postponed to Monday, 12th inst. j The Colonial Secretary moved the order of the day for the further consideration of the Native Trust Amendment Bill. The Governor said, that he was desirous to make some remarks upon the bill now before the Council. Since the bill had been under their consideration, he had received a letter from the honorable member, Mr. Donnelly, who had taken such interest in the present measure. He, the Governor, would most readily admit, that with several of the suggestions contained in that letter he could most cordially agree ; but he wished the Council distinctly to understand that in the observations he had made when the bill Was last before them, relative to the sale of native reserves, that he had no intention to dispose of such lands immediately, even if he had the power to do so. The great object o£ these reserves, was, to raise a fund for the improvement and education of the native race. Now, in the present circumstances of the Colony the reserves were insufficient to produce a competent fund. And he was unable at present to appropriate funds resulting from them to such purposes. What he had in view was to grant, as he had been doing, a loan on behalf of the Imperial Government for the objects for which the reserves were set apart ; and to be enabled to aay that in such reserves existed a security for that loan being refunded. But so long as the present Native Trust Ordinance remained law, the trustees, by it appointed, had the exclusive power over the reserves, and no portion of the funds arising from them was at the disposal at the Government. Great mischief had already accrued from this ordinance. The trustees themselves were unable to act efficiently, for how could gentlemen residing at Auckland manage the' business of the Trust at Otago, and over the vast tracts of country within the Colony? Besides, his own operations intended for the benefit of the natives, would be stopped altogether. He, the Governor, had already granted a loan for such purposes. An hospital was about to be erected at Auckland, and another at Wellington, and he had other beneficial schemes in contemplation. Now, his intention was, to bring a system of gradual improvement of the aborigines into immediate operation, and for this purpose he called upon the Council to assist him by their suggestion and advice in the establishment of some plan which would operate for the real advantage of the Natives. Under the present trust system nothing substantial could be done"; there were about forty tenants, he believed, holding under the trustees ; but in such a state of confusion were the affairs of the i Trust, that the tenants refused to pay rent ! — alleging, that they were ignorant of the parlies to whom they were accountable. The Attorney General said thatsome misunderstanding seemed to exist relative to the power given by the ordinance to the trustees. The act did not vest the reserve property in. any one. The property set apart for the natives was" supposed to be vested in the Crown, and the ordinance complained of, did nothing more than appoint trustees for the management of that property, and for all others which might hereafter be granted or bequeathed for the benefit of the natives. — He considered that there was nothing in the Ordinance which prevented the Governor from making reserves, for their benefit, and of appointing, under the ordinance, trustees for the purpose of managing the property to the best advantage. Mr. Donnelly said, that his sole object in bringing the matter so prominently before bis Excellency and the Council, was to urge the commencement of a duty which we owe to the uatives, and which had been neglected too long. He looked upon the property set apart for the natives, as sacred, and should not like to see them deprived of that which would at present realise but small returns, but which hereafter, as might be expected, would be to them of great value ; yet he could fall in with the views of his Excellency, in bis desire to take an immediate step towards

accomplishing such great objects as he had in contemplation. It appeared that the Home Government who had consented to the Ordinance, had looked upon the reserves as productive property, whereas, in reality, the proceeds were not only now incompetent for the objects intended by the Ordinance, but most likely they would continue" for many years to be totally insignificant. He would therefore, raost gladly support his Excellency in any wise measure <he might undertake, for the purpose of promptly providing for the improvement ■of the aborigines of this country. The Governor, in reply to what had fallen ■from the Attorney General, said, that he understood the Native Trust Ordinance to confer upon the Trustees appointed by it, all control over the reserves, and other property ■set apart for the Natives ; and that the Crown was deprived of any -right to interfere. Such, he conceived, was the obvious interpretation •of the Act. The Attorney General still thought that the Ordinance was misunderstood. He was one of those who had framed that measure, but, he had taken no particular interest in its origination. Beyond the drafting of the Bill, he had no more to do with it than any other member of the -Executive Council. But he could say that by that Act, the framers never •intended toexclude the Crown from the right of overruling the reserves, and appointing Trustees. The Governor observed, that a distinction had been attempted to be made between the •intentions of the act, and, what he conceived to be, its real meaning.; but that distinction was merely theoretical. Me contended that when there was no trust fund, there was no necessity for -an' Ordinance to appoint Trustees. The moiety of 15 per cent, which was set apart for the Natives out of land sales, had been insignificant, and most probably would long remain so ; he therefore, was led to confess that he considered an 'Ordinance, which held forth such specious and vety plausible professions, but which remained, and must long remain inoperative, was nothing jnore than an injurious delusion, and -a cora'plete mockery. The Attorney -General, on behalf of the Trustees, said, that those gentleman, who, with himself held that office, would 'be ready at any time to surrender the -authority which was vested in them by the -Ordinance, into ■ the hands of the Government. Mr. Kennedy wished to know what was really understood by Native Reserves, or in what they consisted in this district ? The Governor said, that the honorable • member had touched, however unconsciously, upon one of the evils of the existing law. The Government could have no knowledge of the extent of what property was applicable to the -objects of- the trust. .His desire was, that the power should- be vested-in the Government to deal with such-reserves for twelve months, and at the end of that time the-< Council could call - upon the-Governor for the result, and then some satisfactory information could be brought before their notice. With respect to the observations which had fallen from the Attorney General, relative to the resignation of the present board of Trustees, he, the Governor, would wish to be understood that he had found no fault -with the members of the board ; and, he would take -that-public opportunity of stating, that if it should become bis duty to appoint Trustees, he knew of no gentlemen to whom he would make the offer before those who now held that office. Mr. Kennedy said that the former Governor was in the habit of granting leases of-ire- .- serves ; he was unable to give leases of Ccown * property for a longer period than twelve r months, and to enable him to extend the time .he had declared Crown Lands to be native . reserves, which empowered him then to lease j -for 99 years. _ { The Colonial Secretary said that no real i lease had been granted by Governor Fitz Roy ol such property. The Governor said that, notwithstanding, there. had been agreements drawn up, copies of which .were aowdn the Colonial Secretary's office, which bound the Government to grant leases when the Ordinance should be confirmed by the Queen. This was another proof of the evil working of the Ordinance. He found himself placed in an awkward position by this Act. It had now received the confirmation of her Majesty, and if he refused to tct upon it, he might be accused of arbitrary conduct. He had no desire to leave himself open' to censure in this measure; and he would therefore, when bringing the estimates before the Council, propose, that certain sums should be appropriated for the purposes o( the Ordinance, and request the Council to pass such lesolutions as would bear him out in the course he had adopted. , The further consideration of the bill was adjourned. ■ i The Attorney General moved that the third reading of the Supreme Court Amendment Bill be postponed till Monday. '

Mr. Kennedy moved first reading of the Destitute Persons Relief Bill. Bill read accordingly. The Governor laid on the table a Bill to provide for the administration of Justice in certain cases ; and promised to lay the Estimates on the table on an early day. Council adjourned till Monday.