PARLIAMENT.

New Zealand Mail, Issue 36, 30 September 1871, Page 5

PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. Tuesday, September 26. The Spbakeb took the chair at half-past two o'clock. ■WELLINGTON "WATERWOBKa BILL This bill was read a second time and ordered to be committed to-morrotr. PETITIONS. Mr O'NEILL presented two petitions from certain Roman Catholics, with reference to education ; also a petition praying for telegraphic communication between Coromandel and the Thames. "WI PARATA presented a petition from three natives, praying that the Government would call upon certain tribes at present armed with Government weapons to give them Mr CLARKE presented a petition from certain inhabitants of Auckland with reference to the contents of particular clauses of the Education Bill ; also from a petition from inhabitants of Auckland praying for the passing of a Permissive Bill. Mr CREIGHTON presented a petition from certain Roman Catholics of Auckland with reference to education. Mr T. KELLY presented a petition. Mr WOOD presented a petition from certain Roman Catholics of Auckland with reference to the Education Bill before the House. THE TELEGRAPH INQUIRY. Mr STAFFORD -presented an interim report from the select committee appointed to inquire into the management of the Telegraph Department, and requested the leave of the House to sit during the time the House was sitting, for the purpose of taking the evidence of Captain Pierce of the Gothenburg, which was granted. PAPERS. Mr Vogel and Mr GiSBORNEIaid on the table a number of papers and returns. THE DISTILLERIES ACT. Mr COLLINS asked the Premier whether it was the intention of the Government to bring in an act to amend the Distillery Act of 1868. Mr YOGEL said he was not able to say whether a bill would be introduced on the subject this session, because the Government were not at all clear that it was the desire of the House to pass such a measure. The recommendation of the select committee on the matter he quite agreed with, viz., that there should be no unnecessary restrictions in the act, but, at the same time, the hon member must see that a measure which dealt with any article from which a very large portion of the revenue was derived must be surrounded with restrictions to protect the revenue. In reference to the case of Mr Turton, alluded by the hon member, the hardship appeared to arise out of the 38th section of the Act, which required sixteen hours' notice to be given of any intention to commence any distilling operations. As a proof that the Government were desirous of meeting the case of Mr Turton, regulations were proposed which it was supposed would meet his case, and at the same time protect the revenue. After these regulations were drawn up, that gentleman promised to enter into the requisite bond, whereupon his license was made out, but up to the present time he had not applied for "it. He did not see how the Government could modify the bill in the way the hon member desired. He would look into the matter during the recess, and see whether the regulations were not sufficiently elastic to enable him to do what the hon member desired. LONGITUDE—WELLINGTON AND DUNEDIN. Mr REYNOLDS asked the Government whether, when received, they intend to print and lay on the table the report from Henry Jackson, C.E., and J. T. Thomson, C. E. Esquires, of observations taken by them for longitude at Wellington and Dunedin, together with the reciprocal transits of stars by electric telegraph ? Mr GISBORNE said the report was an exceedingly valuable one, and would be laid on the table as soon as possible. GOVERNMENT BUSINESS. Mr FOX said before proceeding to the orders of the day he wished to state to the House that he was extremely sorry that his honorable colleague would not be able to make the statement which he had hoped to make to the House that day, but there was no doubt at all the Colonial Secretary would be prepared to do so to-morrow. Under these circumstances, what the Government proposed to do was this: that the House should go into Committee of Supply to-day, and progress with the estimates as far as might be possible, and he would suggest to the House that members should forego their privilege of having Wednesday as a private day, and that his hon colleague, the Minister of Works, should at the evening sitting make his statement, and that during the morning sitting some other Government measures should be brought on j bo that to-morrow would be a Government day, and in exchange for that the Government was prepared to give them the whole of Friday. Mr HALL would object to the proposed alteration, unless certain notices in his name which stood first on the paper for Wednesday occupied a similarly favorable position on the day proposed. Some further remarks were made by Messrs Stafford, Reed, Mervyn, and the Speaker, when

Mr VOGEL said the position of the Government was this: that although the financial statement was made in Committee of Supply, he believed as a rule it would be better to disouss the statement in Committee of Ways and Means. That allowed a larger latitude, because in Committee of Supply it was not competent to move any motion, except as to alterations of amounts. The practice at home was to make the statement in Ways and

Means. However, on that occasion they did not adopt that course, but one which the members of the Government suggested, that the Chairman should report progress, so that the House should not be asked to express an opinion on the financial statement without having an opportunity of considering it. At the same time it was stated that the debate should come on on the following Tuesday. When that day arrived a proposel was made for the adjournment of the Committee of Supply, it not being stated that any member or section of members desired to raise any question in opposition to the Government upon the financial statement; it was merely stated generally that it would be convenient that there a week's delay. On that occasion the Government stated that unless there were some specific object it would be inconvenient that the House should adjourn for two days, and then it was found tbat-a private member, who had a perfect right to do so, had raised a discussion which occupied the time of the House until midnight, and, although the House went into Committee of Supply, they were not able to go into the items on the estimates at all. To-day another motion had been proposed, on the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair. It must be obvious to the House that it devolved upon the Government to regulate the course of business, and they desired that the House should go into Committee of Supply before going on with any other business, and pass a few votes, so that they might know where they were. The power which is given to the Government would be altogether meaningless if day after day that order which had been decided on by them were to be disturbed without any adequate reason for it. Authorities showed that it was a most extreme course to oppose going into Committee of Supply. After a few explanatory statements made by Mr Stafford, as to bis remarks on Friday night with respect to salaries on Goldfieds, Mr Gisborne pointed out that the whole gist of Mr Stafford's speech was a contrast between the two years 1871 and 1870, and that his figures as to last year beiog proved utterly erroneous, all his remarks had lost their force and relevancy. REDUCTION OE THE PUBLIC EXPENDITURE. Mr MACANDREW, before going into committee of supply, explained that he wished to move a resolution which would have the effect of materially reducing the expenditure of the country. His object was not to reduce the salaries of the actual working men —the clerks of the service—but those who were in the anomalous position of receiving more than the ministers of the day. In the case of the judges he thought there should be one judge for each island. If the motion were carried it would reduce the permanent charges by £15,000 a year, which would be giving £300,000 to be spent on reproductive purposes. He thought a salary of £4OO a year certain for life, placed a person in a much better position than a man who had thousands of pounds out in investment. In the event of fche proposal commending itself to the consideration of the House, he would propose that it should commence on the Ist January next. The motion he had to propose was that in the opinion of the House the circumstances of the colony desired rigid economy in every department of the service, and that, therefore, it is expedient that the aggregate salaries to be paid to all officers of the Government be reduced by 25 per cent, of such salaries as are above £4OO per annum, and that where at all practicable offices should be amalgamated, and that one month's salary should be given for every year of service to those officers who were dispensed with. He had no desire to interfere with salai'ies under £4OO. Mr VOGEL said it was evident that the motion was not made in a hostile spirit to the Government, and it was a course which the Government would not oppose because it went into the question of a legitimate reduction of governmental expenditure. With regard to what had taken place in a recent debate—the debate which had been called a party debate —he might say that he could have explained many of the savings which had been pointed out by hon members. The hon member for Timaru had to a certain exlent repeated those charges of their being a boastful Government, and he could only say that if the statement of bare facts was boasting of course they had boasted. But it became the duty of the Government to defend any of their colleagues whom they found attacked, and he would say that taunts had been offered to a member of the Government whose place no member of the House would be willing to fill. With regard to the resolutions there were portions ot it which it would be difficult to deal with, such as the reduction of the Judges' salaries; but he would say, on the part of Ministers, that if the motion were carried it would be the desire generally of members that they at least should not be exempted from its effect. He did not see why it was that there were so many people anxious to get on the civil list, where there were so few opportunities of gaining promotion beyond a certain point; its popularity was strange in a colony like this, where there were so many opportunities of rising to positions of greater credit and emolument in private business. There were many ways in which amalgamation of offices might be carried out —in such cases, for instance, as where a river divided two provinces, and they had to pay a Resident Magistrate at each side of that river. He did not see how they were to reduce, according to the terms of the motion, all salaries above £4OO, by a decrease of twentyfive per cent, ; therefore, they did not see their way to supporting that part of the motion. Although the Government did not intend to support the motion, they did not look upon it as a motion in opposition to the Government of the day.

Mr STAFFORD thought it right that he should make a statement. When the financial statement was last before the House he made

a statement with reference to certain transfers ; under the head of law and justice, and was met by direct contradictions by the Colonial ! Secretary, who gave those contradictions upon I the authority of an officer of that department. The hon gentleman at the head of the Government gave a general and unqualified contradiction to the statements which he made on that occasion, certainly not upon his own authority, but upon the authority of the hon member for Grey Valley. It was not pleasant that a statement made formally should be contradicted in such a persistent manner, and he had brought forward evidence which would corroborate the statements which he had made. [Mr Stafford then read from the estimates for 1567-68-69 to show that the salaries for resident magistrates were charged under the head of law and justice, the point which had been disputed by those hon members to whom he had referred.] He thought he had shown to the House that he was justi fied in making the statements he made when the estimates were last before the House for discussion. The hon member at the head of the Government,with reference to his conduct, and the conduet of several hon members, implied that the motion was a party motion, brought forward really as a want of confidence motion, suggested by himself—if not suggested by himself, at all events concurred in by him. That motion was not suggested by him ; he was not consulted by the hon member for Eden (Mr Creighton) in any shape whatever: nor did he know anything about it until he saw it on the order paper, and did not make up his mind on it until Friday when the hon member rose to make the motion, he being at that time quite unaware whether he (Mr Stafford) intended to support it or not. He quite concurred that the Government had a right to look upon the motion as a want of confidence if they liked. He would go further than the hon gentleman, and say that the Government had a right to make any motion a want of confidence motion if they thought fife. How far they chose to do so was for the Government to say; it was a matter of judgment. They h«d a right to terrify young members if they chose to do so, but he had seen coach horses so worn out by the lash and the spur being so often applied that it had no effect upon them at all. He had explained to the House that he had not in any way acted in concert with the hon member for Eden, and he would now say that the motion of the hon member was not a motion of a party character, but the result of a conscientious desire to see the expenditure reduced, and he had determined to vote for it at the last moment, because holding fche opinion he did, he could not help supporting any measures which had a conscientious desire to reduce the expenditure. The hon member, Mr Williamson, had taunted him with fortifying his position by following the motion of the member for Eden. Now, he did not know what position that hon member occupied in the House, but he would tell that hon member that previous to the introduction of the motion there was no Opposition, but the discussion had led to the formation of an Opposition, and he would take the opportunity of stating that there was now an Opposition formed to see that the finances of the colony should be prudent and economical, whether it was in the ordinary expenses of the Government or on the great public works scheme of the Government. That was the object of the party which had now been formed. That party labored under great disadvantages. There had been a division lately, which gave a majority of 43 against 15, and three pairs were recorded, so that the actual opinions of the House were 46 against 18. That was a very respectable working majority for the Government ; he thought he might say they were a very strong Government: it might well afford to laugh at votes of want of confidence with the support of 48 members, a majority of 29 votes. But it would be interesting to observe how that majority was maintained or increased during the session. He could remember, during the session of 1869, that the Government commenced with a majority, and yet that Government resigned before the termination of the session because it could not carry its measures. He merely brought that up as an historical fact. Then, again, the hon member at the head of the Government had taken exception to his saying that the Government was a boastful Government. He would take the opportunity of repeating that expression. Tho Hon the Premier could not fail to recollect that these were not only the opinions of the Government organs—he had been reported to have called them paid organs, although he did not recollect having used the word " paid"— they were his own public utterances, made use of by the hon member himself at Christchurch and Otago—and he presumed those reports were as they were forwarded to him by the Premier himself—and he ventured to say that he never before met with such boastful statements as those speeches contained. Then, they had the speeches of the Colonial Treasurer at Auckland. Was there no boasting there, when they were told how "the Government were going to raise the country from stagnation to prosperity." The hon member at the head of the Government had referred to the illustration used by the Maori member about corn that was being thrown to fowls. That was an unfortunate statement, because a great deal of corn was being shaken out by this Government to both European and Maori fowls. He had made the announcement because he thought it right to say that those members to whom he had alluded had acted without concert; that other hon members who had not taken an active part in the debate had joined the Opposition with the intention of insisting on measures of retrenchment.

A long debate ensued, and the motion was lost. The following is the division list:— AYES, 24—-Messrs Bathgate, Brown, Brown, Brown, Bryce, Bunny, Calder, Cantrell, Clark, Kelly, Kelly, Macandrew (teller),

M'Gillivray, M'Pherson, Murray, O'Connor Parata, C. Parker, Reid (teller), Reynolds Steward, Swanson, Takamoana, Thomson, Wood.

Noes, 37 —Messrs Andrew, Brandon, Carrington, Collins, Creighton, Curtis Eyes, Farnail, Eitzherbert, Fox, Gisborne, Hall, Harrison, Haughton, Ingles; Johnston, Karslake, Katene, Lightband, M'Lean, M'Lean, Mervyn, O'Neill, Ormond, G. B. Parker, Peacock, Richardson, Rolleston (teller), Shephard, Studhome (teller), Taiaroa, Tribe, Vogel, Wakefield, Webster, White, Williamson. The question was then put, " That the words proposed to be omitted stand part of the question," when a division being called for, the result was as follows:—Ayes, 37; noes, 24. The amendment of Mr Maoandrew was, therefore, negatived. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. The House then went into Committee of Supply. On the item Public Domains and Buildings, £2550, Mr Creighton proposed that the amount should be reduced by £1650, by doing away with the vote for the museum, that for the Colonial Architect, and for the care of the domains. Mr MURRAY, before the first item was put, would like to make a few remarks upon the policy of the Government, which he thought was not of that broad and comprehensive nature which should characterise such a statement. He considered, as they proposed to do away partially with the provinces, they should have brought forward some measure of financial reform. Mr GISBORNE said the debate on the statement had been twice delayed, and he thought it was now the general opinion of the House that they should go on with the estimates, and afterwards discuss those measures which would be introduced to give effect to the policy of the Government. With regard to the reduction proposed, the Government did not see its way to such a reduction, although they would consent to reduce it by £3OO.

Mr BUNNY thought there was no doubt the estimates would come out pretty much as they went in. There was no doubt the Government would carry them, so that these oppositions were needless.

Mr CREIGHTON would divide on all his amendments, because he believed in his heart and conscience that they were reductions which could fairly be made.

Mr CALDER had heard it stated that figures would prove anything, but he defied any hon member to show by the figures of these estimates that there was any retrenchment in them at all; they were very much in excess of the ordinary revenue of the country, and if the motion by the hon member deserved to be called a sham, these estimates deserved to be more strongly stigmatised as a sham. He was sorry that the motion of the hon member for Port Chalmers was not carried, because it would have been a guide to the Government. These permanent charges were very vexatious. There was the office of Attorney-General, which was an office which should be considered a legitimate prize to all those capable of filling it. It was a great pity that the control of these offices was ever taken out of the power of the House. A motion had been brought forward by an avowed oppositionist, and a similar one had been brought forward by one of its own supporters. Then he thought when the Government saw such a feeling on both sides it was their duty to take back the estimates and recast them. At present he saw a clear deficiency of £200,000, and until he saw some attempt made in the direction he had indicated, he could not believe they intended to retrench at all.

Mr BELL thought the hon member would not have made such statements if he had had experience in the work of committees of supply. Very few, if any, of the members of the House had gone through the estimates of previous years, and compared them with those of the present year, with the view of pointing out where amalgamations and reductions could be made. If they would apply themselves to this duty during the present year, they would find that next year by tho experience gained they would be able to make many legitimate reductions which would materhlly reduce the annual estimates. He thought it would be an evil day for the country, when the permanent officers were deterred from following out their duty by the fear of a reduction of their salaries—the officers on whose conscientious discharge of their duties in an honorable manner and with integrity was the safeguard of the colony. Let them confine themselves at present to knocking off what were nothing else than luxuries; and he would point to one department, the postal department, in which a great saving might be effected.

Mr G-ILLIES quite agreed w.\th much that fell from Mr Speaker. No doubt there were many ways in which offices could be rolled into one; but in what department had it been attempted in the estimates before them. There was no attempt whatever. There was the office of Secretary of Crown Lands, £6OO, a year, at present vacant, which might very well be amalgamated with the office of Regis-trar-General of Land. Mr Gillies pointed out manv other items in the estimates, to ahow that many items which were subject to annual votes by the House were now lumped as provincial charges. He wished the Colonial Treasurer to state whether the item Colonial Architect, £7OO, was the sole emolument received by that officer. (Mr G-ISBOBNE—■ Yes). Then he would like to know how it was that the provincial authorities of Auckland had received a, bill within the last three months for commission on drawings for a court house in that province. Mr VOGEL thought when hon members considered that the whole of the estimates had to be recast recently within a very short time they would wonder that more discrepan* cies were not found in them. With reference

to the additions to the permanent charges under the Coroner's Act, he was not prepared to say whether the act itself was an appropriation act, and it was, he presumed, an interpretation of that kind which had led to the charges being charged He would read a list of savings, and hy savings he meant that the public purse would not be called upon to pay so much money—because these savings had been called by the hon member for Eden as increased expenses—which nmounted to £70,000 on the expenses of last year. With regard to the apparent saving of the salary of the late lamented postmaster at Wellington, he might say that it was not the intention of the Government to fill up that office, the Inspector of post offices, Mr Gray, having undertaken to perform the duties at an increase ot £SO upon his salary, and he might mention that the efficiency of the postoffice would not be at all impaired. He would conclude by repeating that the estimates had been framed in a hurry, but the Government would be prepared to accept any suggestions which might be made which were real savings. Mr BATHGATE thought a uniform system of comparative statements should be initiated, by which members could see at once how the accounts of the colony were kept; at present it seemed to be done according to the whim of every treasurer who came into office. He had endeavored to go through these figures, and although having a tolerable knowledge of figures, he could make nothing of the chaotic mass presented to them. If the House would decide upon a certain number of heads of account, it would do away with the possibility of doctoring the accounts.

Mr REYNOLDS would endeavour in every way to reduce expenditure, and consequently would vote for the reduction proposed by the member for Eden. He thought the customs department was altogether out of proportion to the other departments of the colony, and thought the salaries should be reduced to the level of the post-office. He would like to see the estate at Lowry Bay given away to any member who could be got to accept it as a gift' , . e Mr VOGEL pointed out that the duties of the customs and postal departments widely differed.

Mr GISBORNE, in explanation of the circumstances mentioned by Mr Gillies with reference to the Colonial Architect, explained that if that officer had charged commission within the period specified by him, it had been charged unfairly. Mr Shepheed and Mr Thomson despaired of seeing anything like retrenchment effected by the present Government. Mr Thomson went through the items in the estimates, and pointed out that where an officer was dispensed with in any part of the country the salary, instead of being saved to the country, was absorbed by increases in the salaries of those officers who remained. Mr BUNNY thought they were wasting their time in debating the matter, because there were three items on which they might effect the reduction they desired, the items of the Native Office, Militia, and San Francisco Service. Mr WAKEFIELD objected to being forced into conclusions against his inclinations by the blustering Government " whip." He thought the Government should afford some information on the items. He would support the reduction.

Mr BUNNY declined the honor attributed to him of filling the responsible situation of Government " whip." He hoped he occupied a more important position in the House. Mr HALL merely wished the hon member for Eden would withdraw his opposition to the vote for the New Zealand Institute. That was the only portion of the reduction to which he particularly objected. Mr MURRAY was sorry to hear the disclaimer of Mr Bunny, " the Government trumpet." His statements of that night were very inconsistonfe with his statements of Friday night, when he announced that the Government were willing to receive modifications in committee, and yet, now that they were in committee, every opposition was thrown in the way of members who wished to proceed in that direction. In common with other hon members, he thought they might dispense with the Colonial Architect. Mr GISBORNE explained that if the Government had paid commission on the old system the Colonial Architect would have drawn £16,000 last year. Mr SWANSON had heard that if a testimony to the ability of the architect of St Paul's Cathedral were required, visitors were told to look around them—and if he were to look around him in the Government buildings for the ability of the Colonial Architect, he, or anybody else, would be woefully disappointed. Mr REID thought it must be apparent to the Government that the House did not intend to pass the item until they had had an opportunity of discussing the proposals intended to be placed before them in the statements of the Minister for Public Works. At ten minutes past two, Mr Reid moved that the Chairman should report progress, and ask leave to sit again. Some very acrimonious debate ensued, and at three o'clock the Colonial Treasurer announced that the Government were willing to accept the motion, which was put and agreed to, and the House adjourned at a quarter past three. Wednesday, Septembee 27. The Speaker took the chair at half-past two. WELLINGTON WATEBWOEKS BILL. This bill was committed. Some new clauses were added, enabling the Corporation to raise money by debentures instead of mortgage. The amendments were reported to the House, and were ordered to be considered tomorrow. HEW MEMBEB. Mr M'Glashan, member for Roslyn, took the oath and hie seat.

PETITIONS. Petitions were presented, by Mr O'Neill from certain Roman Catholics of Auckland, with reference to education ; by Mr Williamson, to the same effect; by Mr Shepherd, from the Dunstan district, praying for the establishment of local self-government; by Mr Williamson, praying for the passing of a Permissive Bill; by Mr Reynolds, from certain residents with reference to the town belt of Dunedin ; by Mr Stafford, from residents of Timaru, in favor of a protective duty; by Mr Murray, from settlers of Tokomairiro, with reference to the Clutha railway; by Mr Shepherd, from the Mayor and Council of Alexandra, Otago, with reference to the Southern Trunk Railway ; by Mr Mervyn, from certain residents of Mount Ida, with reference to water supply to the goldfields; by Mr Reynolds, from residents and owners in Dunedin, asking permission to withdraw their signatures from a petition before the House with reference to the Dunedin Cemetery Bill; by Mr M'Glashan, with reference to the Permissive Bill; by Mr O'Rorke, from certain inhabitants' of Auckland, with reference to education ; by Mr Haugbton, from certain inhabitants of Queenstown, Otago, with reference to education ; by Mr Reid, from inhabitants ot Otago, one with reference to education, and three with reference to the passing of a Permissive Bill; by Mr Macandrew, from 1300 inhabitants of the city of Dunedin, with reference to the Dunedin Cemetery ; by Mr J. C. Brown, from gold miners of Otago, praying for the abolition of the gold duty. A PERMISSIVE BILL.

Mr CREIGHTON asked the Premier whether, in view of the large number of petitions in favor of a Permissive Bill presented to the House, the Government are prepared to' introduce a bill for amending the licensing laws and ordinances of the colony; and, if not, whether the Government will support such a bill if introduced by a private member ? Mr FOX said he was glad the hon member had asked the question. He found that, including the signatures presented _ to-day, the total number amounted to 9327 in favor of a law for the alteration of the present licensing regulations, and generally in famrof a Permissive Bill, a larger number than had ever petitioned the House on any particular question. Through the pressure of business, it was not possible that the Government could itself undertake to introduce so large and important a measure as a Permissive Bill, but, at the same time, if the hon member would introduce such a bill, although it would be an open question with the Government, he would give it his cordial support. THE AMERICAN STEAMERS. Mr G. M'LEAN asked the Colonial Treasurer why Messrs Webb and Holladay have not been required to observe those provisions of their contract which require their steamers to proceed to Port Chalmers; and whether the Government intends to enforce the penalty to which by the terms of their contract they arc II&Vg ? Mr VOGEL said if the hon member would refer to the papers already laid on the table he would understand why the steamers were going to Australia—that they were going there with the consent of the G-overnmtmt, at the request of Mr Webb. The contractors had not many boats on the line, and it waß necessary that those boats should be docked occasionally after such long voyages. Ihe Government had taken the matter into consideration, and he thought it became evident that it was almost a matter of necessity that the contractors should have the privilege, as it was represented to the Government that until more steamers were put on to the line it was absolutely necessary to make the concession that the steamers should run to Australia for four months. Ihe running through of the steamers to Australia would be advantageous rather than otherwise, because it was desirable to let the Australian Governments see what sort of steamers Mr Webb's boats were. TASMANIAN RAILWAYS. Mr MURRAY asked the Government if it is aware what the arrangements are which have been made with the Tasmanian Government for the construction of railways in Tasmania, and, if so, what those arrangements Mr GISBORNE was not aware that there was any such record in the offices, but if there was, it would be laid on the table. PAPEBS. Mr VOGEL laid on the table certain returns. THE CLUTHA RIVER. Mr MURRAY'S motion, having reference to the improvement of the Clutha river, was adjourned until that day week. OTAGO LANDS. Mr T, L. SHEPHERD .moved, that the petitions laid on the table by command of his Excellency, on the 18th day of August last, praying for the throwing open of land for the purpose of settlement in the Province of Otago, be referred so the Waste Lands Committee. Agreed to. THE PREMIER'S AFFIDAVIT. Mr GILLIES moved that a copy of the affidavit of the Premier, filed in the Supreme Court, Nelson, in the case of Monro v. Luckie and Collins, be laid on the table of the House. Mr FOX, after some mutual explanation between himself and the hon member, seconded the motion, which was agreed to. FIRST READINGS. The following bills were read a first time: — A bill intituled An Act to empower the Oamaru Dock Trust to borrow money for the construction of harbor works at the port of Oamaru; and a bill for the better defining of the law of libel as effecting the newspaper press, which were ordered to be read a second time to-morrow; a bill to release certain sections now vested iu the Municipal Corporation of Oamaru under the Oamaru Town Reserves Management Act, 1869, with a view of allowing them to be otherwise dealt with;

and a bill to provide for the management of certain parcels of land in the city of Wellington, which were ordered to be read a second time on Friday ; a bill to appropriate moneys raised for particular charitable purposes in certain cases to other charitable purposes, which was ordered to be read a second time on Wednesday next; a bill intituled the Poverty Bay Grants Act Amendment Act, 1871; and a bill to amend the Crown Grants Act, 1866, which were ordered to be read a second time on Thursday week ; a bill intituled an Act to enable the Superintendent of Otago to alienate a certain portion of the public garden reserve in the town of Invercargill; and a bill to amend the Canterbury Rivers Act, 1870, which was ordered to be read a second time on Tuesday next; a bill to vest in trustees certain lands in the township of Masterton, Greytown, Wairarapa, which was ordered to be read a second time on Wednesday next; and a bill to authorise the validation of certain titles in the Province of Hawke's Bay. OUTRAGES BY NATIVES. Mr GILLIES moved that particulars of outrages committed in 1869-70 by Natives, on the property held under Crown Grant by Mr A, M'Aekill, at Hikutaia, Thames, together with a statement of what the Government have done in respect thereof, and of the reasons for preventing the operation of the ordinary process of law in respect thereof, be laid on the table of the House. Agreed to. MARRIED WOMEN'S PROPEETY BILL. Mr BRANDON moved that The Married Woman's Property Bill be referred to a select committee, to consist of the Hon Mr Fox, Mr Rolleston, Mr R. Richardson, Mr Bathgate, Mr Stewart, and Mr Karslake. Agreed to. THE CASE OP MR SMYTHIES. Mr STAFFORD moved that Mr Smythies be further heard at the bar of the House ; and that counsel for the Law Association be allowed to be present and to be heard if the Association should desire it. At the termination of a short discussion it was agreed that Mr Smythies should be heard at the bar at half-past seven on Friday evening, should circumstances render it necessary that he should continue his address, which rests upon the contingency of the House being addressed on behalf of the Law Society, in which case Mr Smythies desired to reply. BANKS OP ISSUE. Mr BATHGATE moved that a select committee be appointed to consider whether the system and practice of banking in use among the banks carrying on business in the colony, afford the full benefit which should accrue to the public from such institutions, and whether it is expedient that encouragement be given for the organization and establishment of local associations as National Banks of Issue, with such privileges and under such restrictions and regulations as may be considered adapted to the circumstances of the colony. The committee to consist of Mr Vogel, Mr Fitzherbert, Mr Hall, Mr Gillies, Mr Curtis, Mr Macandrew, Mr G. M'Lean, Mr Wood, and the Mover. He thought very little inquiry on the part of the committee would lay the foundation of a bill to be brought before the next Parliament. It was a question whether the great depression was not intensified by the present banking system of the colony. In times of plenty, when, as he had been informed by old colonists, everything they touched turned into gold, the people underwent no anxiety of mind by thinking of such matters, but that state of things had long since passed away, and they were now entitled to make such an inquiry as his motion suggested. It must be well known that the present banking system was very unsatisfactory, and he thought that was to be attributed to the fact that the banks were not local institutions but were foreign companies, taking away the profits of this colony to swell the riches of other colonies, and perhaps of the business people of Lombard-street, so that they had the fact staring them in the face that although they were carrying on their trade with their own money they were enjoying none of the profits. He knew of a bank in Dunedin which carried on a large business for a number of years ; not carrying on its transactions with one penny of its own money, but with the money of depositors. He would give them another case, in which the Union Bank of Australia, in Dunedin, in one year, swept away profits to the amount of between £30,000 and £40,000. Then there was the objection that the system of exchange in the colony was a very bad one, necessitating the locking up in the different banks of an amount of coin equal to a million and a quarter in the shape of reserves. In Scotland the system of exchange was so perfectly conducted by means of drafts that they need not employ more than £IOO sterling, for the purpose of exchange. He had seen enough bankruptcy cases in the colony to excite his horror; cases in which the banks cared nothing for individual or national bankruptcy. The3e institutions he knew were very conservative ; they objected to changes or interference of any kind, but he thought it was a question which, the public attention having been directed to it, should be taken up by the House. He hoped to see such a case as would warrant the Government in bringing in a bill during the next session. Mr WOOD would suggest, as the question was one in which a great deal of consideration would be required, that the question should be postponed until next session. They were at present overburdened with business, and in addition to that they must remember the fact that it was one of the first acts of the Legislature to abolish a bank of issue, which issued a currency on the security of the country. It would be desirable for many reasons that the matter should be postponed. Mr G. M'LEAN also suggested the withdrawal of the motion, which was opposed by several members. The motion was put and agreed to.

PETITION OF W. JACKSON. Mr CREIGHTON moved that this House will, on Wednesday next, resolve itself into a committee of the whole, to consider of an address to his Excellency the Governor, requesting him to cause the necessary steps to be taken to give effect to the recommendation of the Public Petitions Committee in the case of William Jackson. Mr KELLY suggested that the matter should be postponed until the papers came up from the printing office. The matter was an important one; there were many other similar cases, and they would involve a considerable outlay to the colony. Mr CREIGHTON said he was not responsible for the non-production of the papers from the printing office. If they had been sent to a private printing office they would have been in the possession of the House, and at half the cost. He was not responsible for the fact that the Government Printing Office cost the country double the amount it should do. It seemed to him that there was no control over that department, notwithstanding its rostliness. He hoped the Government would see that the papers were forthcoming, so that the case might be proceeded with. Mr D. M'LEAN and other members suggested the postponement of the matter until the papers came up from the printing office. Mr Gillies, Mr Clark, and Mr M'Gillivray spoke warmly in support of the motion. Mr GISBORNE, in reply to the remarks with reference to the printing office, said the Government were not responsible for the delay ; the matter was in the hands of the officer of the House. The motion was agreed to. THE CIVIL SEBVICE. Mr WOOD moved that, in the opinion of the House the existing acts conferring pensions and retiring allowances upon officers in the Civil Service of the colony should be repealed, and that provision should be made for the vested interests which have accrued under those acts by an abatement of 2£ per cent from the salaries of all officers who are in a position to become entitled to a pension or retiring allowance under those acts; provided always that every offieer who voluntarily gives up all claim to pension or retiring allowance shall be paid his salary without abatement. On putting a question of a similar nature to the Government a few days ago he had received an answer which he could only constrne to be a negative one, and he had brought forward the present motion for the purpose of enabling the House to express an opinion on the matter. Mr Wood read from the various Civil Service Acts to show how favorably the Civil servants were treated, by conferring upon them unusual and too liberal vested rights. One clause of the act of 1866 provided that amendments of the act, if necessary, should be introduced by act within a period of three years from the passing of that act. Within the specified three years, a member had brought in such an amending act, which the House refused to pass. If some action were not taken there was a great danger that in a period of six or seven years these vested rights would become equal to one sixth of the whole of the salaries voted by the House, and would become an enormous charge on the revenue of the colony; so enormous a charge that it would eat up the whole of that revenue. It was »ecessary to make some stand in the matter, and lay down some point at which this system should cease. The superannuation fund was doubling itself in every three years and a half, and it was becoming a serious question whether it was possible for the colony to meet the liabilities that it was day by day, and year by year, incuring under the provisions of the Civil Service Acts. The Government paid these persons, and paid them well, for their services while they were employed, and why should they have any further claim upon the country. It led men to lean upon the Government of the country instead of trusting to their own exertions. The civil servants should provide some fund for themselves; these payments should not come out of the taxes of the people. Let the House say at once that no more vested interests shall be created. Of course they must accept the liabilities of the past, but let them learn wisdom by experience, and arrest this system of pension. He would move the motion standing in his name. Mr SWANSON seconded the motion, adducing arguments strongly in favor of the cessation of the pension system. He considered that unless the matter was grasped at once the civil servants, who at present numbered over 1500, would absorb the whole of the revenue of the colony. The hour of half-past five having been reached, the debate was adjourned. DISEASED CATTLE ACT BILL. This bill was read a third time, and passed. STATE IMPBOYEMENT BILL. Mr Mijbbay moved the second reading of a bill for the lending of money by the State to persons for the purpose of making agricultural improvements. Mr Vogel, while recognising that the bill was one that might be made a very important one, thought it would be initiating a very dangerous element into the Government of the country by introducing a system of political pressure. He would agree to the second reading on the understanding that the going into committee should be postponed for a fortnight. Mr Reid supported the second reading, differing altogether with the views of the Colonial Treasurer that it would be introducing a dangerous kind of political pressure. Similar measures had been found to work well in other countries, and for that reason he would support the motion for the second reading. Mr Bathgate and Mr Reynolds did not concur in the passing of such a measure, which they agreed with the Colonial Treasurer would be placing in the hands of the Government a very objectionable kind of political patronage. The latter gentleman saw no analogy in the circumstances of the colony and the United Kingdom in such a