MR FOX’S SPEECH ON MR MACANDREW’S RESOLUTIONS.

New Zealand Mail, Issue 35, 23 September 1871, Page 3

MR FOX’S SPEECH ON MR MACANDREW’S RESOLUTIONS.

Sir, I deem it my duty to rise for the purpose of intimating to the House the opinions of the Government in respect to the resolutions brought forward by the hon member for Port Chalmers, I may say that no apology is necessary from the hon member for having taken so responsible a step as he has on the present occasion. Independently of the very long connection the hon member has had with the affairs of the country as a colonist; independently of his anterior connection with public affairs in the old country, —and independently of the very long time during which he h is sat in this House, lie has the high claim also of having been one of the most prominent administrators of affairs we have had in this colony. He is a gentleman who has always been distinguished for his energy of mind, and through whose efforts—more so, perhaps, than those of any other —the affairs of the province of Otago have been brought into their present prosperous condition. Considering the long connection which the hon member has had with the political history of the colony in his capacity of a Provincial representative, and the prominent part he has always played in the business of the country, no other member of this House is more competent or has a better claim to take this matter in hand. Bull, while admitting all this, and admitting that there may be signs which foreshadow constitutional changes, I am at the same time very sorry to say that the Government does not see its way to support the hon member’s proposals, —in fact, I may put it solely upon this issue : these resolutions are not compatible, nor can they be made to harmonise with the policy of the Government as developed in the financial statement. Though we may ultimately arrive at the terminus which the hon gentleman foresees, when the present system of Government shall have passed into disrepute, and a general absorptioH of the provinces has taken place, it is still perfectly evident to every hon member of this House that we may arrive at the same conclusion by a different operation, and probably at a different period and under different circumstances altogether from those indicated by the hon gentleman. The lion member has endeavored to persuade this House to fall into his views by dwelling upon the very great Baving which he conceives may be made to the colonial chest by bis plan—namely, that the Government of the five existing provinces shall be merged into one single Government. Well, sir. I think the hon member has deceived himself in the view he has taken of this subject. I must confess that when he gave us his figures, I was myself not a little astonished at the smallness of the sum he proposed to save. For, on considering the matter more closely—on looking at the magnitude of the interests involved, the large amount of legislation required for the Middle Island, the very large area of territory which is concerned, and the great number of officers attached to the Government of the provinces which will have te be attached to any form of Government you may create —I consider that the amount which he proposes to save is small —very small as compared with the interests of such a large and scattered population, and the necessity that they should be provided with a legislation of the greatest possible efficiency, to which everything else should be subordinated. I do not regard the cost of the legislative and executive administration of these various provinces as a very large sum, and I think hon members must admit that of late years the most strenuous efforts have been made at retrenchment, and that the expenditure of these provinces has been brought down absolutely to a minimum rate —as much so, at all events, as can be ■ done with five different sets of machinery to work. I do not see that if we were to amalgamate the different Governments we should necessarily effect any reduction in the expenditure for legislation—indeed it is very probable that it would be increased. In this matter the hon member seems to hope impossiblities —that the men should lose their sense of the value of money —that most important public services could be discharged by unpaid officers j and that all this will arise from a mere change in the form of administration. In that view I think the hon member is mistaken, and I do not anticipate the proposed change would produce such effects. Neither do I think his anticipations with regard to road boards rest on any more solid basis; because ultimately—if nob after a very few years—it would be found that such work as required to be done would have to be paid for in order to secure as efficient a performance of the duties of the proposed boards as exists at the present moment. Besides, a large number of road boards must spring up, who will require a great many chairmen, who, in turn, will require a great many secretaries and clerks, and they would ultimately swallow up a large portion of the £22,000 which the hon member imagines might be saved. X caution him not to be too sanguine on that point. It is not by a simple change in the form of a Government that you can expect to

see the necessary functions of government pcrfonaod at very much less cost# Then, sir, the hon member has held out, as an advantageous result of carrying out his proposals, certain large works through the interior of the island ; but I am not at all sure that they would be executed at any earlier period by the proposals which he makes, than if they were initiated by the scheme of the Government which the country has accepted, and which is now ia process of execution. The General Government will shortly recommend to the House the adoption of those main trunk roads which it conceives to be desirable to have executed at once, having regard to the present circumstances of the colony, and the means placed at the disposal of the legislature. After these works have been completed we may then be in a position to provide those large interior works referred to, and other necessary works which will involve a very large expenditure of money in one shape or another. For X hope that this is not the last occasion by very many on which we shall borrow money. An expenditure of ten millions during the next ten years will have created a large security by the execution of those works ; and we —or rather our successors, for many of us may not live to see it—will be both ready and willing to borrow more. The security which will be created by the judicious expenditure which has now been initiated will certainly be such as will enable those who come after us to borrow ten million more—to do the same as they do in England and in America, because to be able to borrow is always a sign of a prosperous country. It is by such means that we may expect to build up, little by little, for a series of years, a great and prosperous country. To spend money in such a way is not throwing it away : it is only making it reproductive; and no doubt the works referred to by the hon member will be undertaken in the Middle Island, quite as soon as they could be by any attempt at lessening the cost of the Executive of that Island The hon member also imagines that a great benefit will be derived from placing the administration of the railways in the Middle Island in the hands of one provincial legislalature; but I cannot see on what grounds he bases his calculations, as he has given us no facts that would lead to the conclusion that it would be so. I believe myself that there is less chance of the administration of such works being better managed by a small government than by a larger; but although he has not afforded us any instance by which we may test the assertion, I think I may safely say that from the experience derived from all parts of the world, the majority of hon members will favor the idea that the General Government is far more likely to carry out these works more economically and more effectively. I do not think with the hon gentleman that his plan will get rid ol those evils of double government arising from the seat ot Government being in Wellington ; those evils cannot he entirely prevented, and must exist to a greater or less extent under any system. All forms of government will have their weak points ; but we must not imagine that by changing a little the form of our Government —by stepping aside a little as it were, we shall rid ourselves of those evils at present in existence. Human nature is human nature, and while you have to work by human machinery, you must expect to be subjected to those imperfections and inconveniences natural to all human agencies, and will find as plentiful a crop of them in one class of circumstances as in another. I admit that there is considerable truth in the hon gentleman’s fears that there is some danger of a scramble arising out of the construction of those railways ; but I hold that it is the duty of the Government to prevent any such unseemly scenes taking place, and to resist by all the means in their power that custom called “ log-rolling” which has before now been resorted to in this House. Will such a tendency be obviated by the plan of the hon gentleman ? Suppose the five political divisions of the Middle Island are brought into collision — as they must be—on the floor of the proposed Council, whether that Council be sitting in Otago, in Christchurch, in Hokitika, or elsewhere, —there will be just as much log-rolling as in this House. The scramble will be just as great and the feeling just as intense, —I am inclined to think, indeed, that it would be greater—because the smaller the body the more intense the scramble. I am satisfied that if the hon member will consider the subject carefully, he will see that there is much less risk of a scramble taking place in the General Assembly, since it is a larger body, and the antagonistic parties would consequently be larger, and the House would therefore to a certain extent ho in a better position to strengthen the hands of the Government which desires to resist the evils of log-rolling. The hon member says it will be a great advantage to the proposed Council to have its powers more clearly defined, and that it will prevent the necessity, for coming up to this House for validation; but he forgets that the present Provincial Councils have their powers defined already, and that when they come to this House for validation of their acts it is simply because they have exceeded their powers. The powers of this new Council will be no more defined than are the powers of the existing councils ; and it will be liable, if it should transgress its powers and infringe upon those of the Central Government, to be called to account by the General Assembly, which still continues to exist. The hon member attributes much of the difficulties which have arisen in regard to past provincial legislation to lawyers ; but he cannot do away with the lawyers, and unless he should hang them all up it is certain there will be some of them in the council he desires to create. In my opinion, however, I think that the defect, if any, is that we are rather short of lawyers. I believe that there are not more than two or three at present in this House; and I do not think that any coun*

eil that could be created in the Middle Island would be likely to have a smaller number. The General Government is obliged to take the advice of a lawyer, and I presume that whoever may be Superintendent of the new council, if there is to be one, will also have to consult a lawyer with regard to the various measures which may be proposed or suggested by the local boards or any other machinery of Government which may happen to be in existence. Therefore, thpi’e will be exactly the same difficulties arising as exist at the present time. Sir, the hon member also pointed out the advantages of having a uniform land law ; and I am far from refusing to admit that it would be a very great advantage to this colony, if the circumstances of the country permitted, and the' wishes and feelings of the people inhabiting the different parts of the colony, were at one on the question ; but from what I know of the different character and habits of the people, and the different species of investment they have resorted to, I have my doubts on the matter. These laud laws have not been the result of any arbitrary enactment, but have been worked out more or less carefully by the people themselves, with the sanction of this House, and solely with the view to provide for local necessities. The circumstances of the colony may be so changed now that the differences between the land laws of the various provinces present less difficulty in the way of framing one general land law than at any other period of our history ; but I have not yet seen in this House anything like a uniformity of opinion on the subject. Every session we see battles carried on not only between hon members representing different sections of the country—as for example between Canterbury and Otago, Wellington and Hawke’s Bay, Nelson and Westland —but there are also great differences of opinion between the representatives of each particular province. I do not see a probability that, if any new province were created, although it might even be of a limited area, there would be a harmony of feeling on the subject of the land laws. -Still, I freely admit that an assimilation of those laws would bo a most desirable thing for the colony. I think, however, the hon member is rather abroad when he says that the waste lands of the colony are the patrimony of the poor man of the old country. That may look very well in theory ; but it presents the curious anomaly in practice : The poor man while in England is supposed to be the owner of a fine patrimony, iu the shape of waste lands in this colony ; but the moment he comes out here to occupy his estate and develop the resources of the country, the land is not his—it is the property of the poor man he left behind him. As long as he is in England, the lands are his ; but as soon as he comes to New Zealand, they cease to be so. This is rather working in a circle, and putting the saddle on the wrong horse. It seems to me that the lands aro the patrimony of those who expend their time and labour upon the development and culture of those lands, and I cannot agree with Earl Bussell, whose theory is that these lands are to be administered for* tho benefit of persons at home, who in all probability will never see them. The hon member has with diffidence approached that portion of his subject which refers to the proposed seat of Government in the new Province. I confess it does not seem to my mind to present any insuperable difficulty, because if the population of the Middle Island should agree to have only one Province, I should hope that they would be prepared to follow the example set to us in the new kingdom of Italy, where such cities as Milan and Florence, and Turin, were ready to sacrifice local jealousies, and agree upon a common capital. On this I should hope, and should expect to see, perfect harmony of opinion, and I confess I do not see how the suggestion of the hon member to have the seat of Government not fixed but shifting, at all tends to the solution of the difficulty, if any such exists. How does the hon member propose to manage this ? The question with us has never been where the legislature shall sit, but the struggle has been where the seat of the general executive shall be, and I fear the hon member will experience a similar difficulty in his own case. Mr MACANDREW: That may very well be left to the Provincial Council, and probably Cromwell would be a very good site. Mr FOX : I concede with pleasure that the hon member is quite right to bring forward his resolutions. I fully think the matter is one which should be ventilated in this House, and I have no doubt that he will find many other hon members to support him iu it; but I deem it my duty to intimate to him and to this House that the Government does not see its way to support his resolutions, being as they are antagonistic to, and incapable of being worked in harmony with, the general proposals of the Government, and especially those foreshadowed in the financial statement wnich has been submitted to the House.