PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

New Zealand Mail, Issue 22, 24 June 1871, Page 5

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Friday, June 16. The Speaker took the chair at 3 o’clock. HIGHWAYS ACT—ADJOURNED DEBATE. Mr A. MILNE said he had come to the Council with the intention of supporting the Government; but he was sorry he could not do so on this bill. From the information he had gathered through the action of the Government in allowing the out-districts to obtain a knowledge of the proposed measure, he had found that the majority of the settlers on the West Coast were utterly opposed to the principle of the rating clause. In one instance a public meeting had been held, at which resolutions in favor of an acreage rate were passed unanimously : indeed, so strong was the feeling against this bill that even if his own personal convictions were in accordance with it, he would still feel it his duty before voting for it to go to his constituents and tell them he could not conscientiously vote in accordance with their wishes. Apart from the injudiciousness of the mode proposed of dividing the province, and the new management of the roads, neither of which could recommend themselves to any one who knew anything of what the country districts really required, he felt sure that in all other respects it was at variance with the wishes of not only the people on the West Coast, but also those in the Wairarapa. Mr PHARAZYN, unlike some hon. members, had not received anj intimation from his constituents regarding the bill to show that it was discordant to their wishes ; but among the hon. speakers in the Council who had spoken against the bill, he had the gratification of hearing unintentionally the arguments of one answer the assertions of another, without either of them affecting the justness of the principles of the bill. This, however, he attributed to individual idiosyneracy—men could not very well rid themselves of the tendency of temperament. One saw it a gloomy light, and another in some other complexion. The hon. member proceeded to point out the various points in the provisions on which hon. members contradicted themselves. The hon. member Mr Ludlarn and others were not at all in accord on the question of acreage rate (Mr Ludlarn : My chief objection is that it is a tax on improvers). Mr Brandon on the other hand wanted to leave the whole power of rating in the hands of the ratepayers themselves. This was the most monstrous and unjust proposition of all, though it was a principle introduced by him in the bill he brought down last session. In opposition to this, Mr Hutchison so far admitted the good principle of the bill, as to have some reflection before opposing it. From that indication of the propet spirit of the bill, he felt that the majority of the Couu eil would recognise the broad justice and beneficial tendency of the bill, and assist the Government in carrying it into operation j and he felt certain the whole country would not be slow to admit the same view. In fact no other course was calculated to do any good ; and to think of progress without such means as this measure proposed was simply bewildering. Although he had always been an ardent provincialist, he yet looked on this measure as anti-provincial, and one that must pave the way for a gradually waning provincialism, whose last flicker was inevitable, and perhaps not remote. No doubt he had objections to make to the bill; but he always knew there was a certain allowance for compromise in every measure. On the whole, however, he was prepared to take the bill on its intrinsic merits as a good one. The valuation, which seemed to present the most unworkable feature of the bill, and likely to inflict the greatest injustice, was not so great a difficulty as appeared. It might be a delicate task, but be thought such a valuator might be obtained as would give reasonable satisfaction. To say that the rate would have the effect of obstructing improvements, from the fact that it made the luxuriously inclined man pay for any fanciful expenditure he might choose to incur, was not a sound objection. As a rule, those people got more use of the roads than their poorer neighbors, and it was not unfair to make them pay something commensurate with their power and wealth. Besides, nobody would say that the tax would have a deterrent effect, and make people of means lock up their money and live in the primitive dwelling and style of the early settlers. Only contrast the philosophy of acreage rating with that proposed. By acreage rating you taxed a man according to the length of his purse, irrespective of its contents. A purse a foot long in the one case held £5, in the other £SO, and you cut precisely the same length off each. Looking at the measure in every way, on broad and general grounds, he found the measure to be a good one, and should therefore support it. Mr RENALLsaid that wereit'nofcfor weighty reasons ;he would, from the respect he entertained for the present Government, have felt bound to vote for the second reading of the bill. The hon. member then went into the history and progress of road boards in the Wairarapa, in order to, show how harmoniously they had fulfilled their functions; and, if the settlers were only moderately fortunate in procuring wardens they rarely or never had anything to complain of. Knowing the existence of such a satisfactory state in the Wairarapa, he felt bound to examine the measure, to see how it would fit the exigencies of his district. It was not as if their boards had died out, for they had not. He regretted the Government had not seen their way to adopting a suggestion he had made to them in order to utilise their resources so as to relieve the settlers, who had already been put to a great expense, from the expense of repairing the main lines of road. He felt this considerably, as it was somewhat painful for him ,to find himself giving almost his first Tote, against a Q-overnment, the gentlemen of

whom he had-so long been in unison with. Many settlers of the out districts of the Wairarapa had already suffered great injustice by the neglect of the Government in the matter of roads ; and now these people would be again asked to contribute to the making of roads, while their own inaccessibility was carefully ignored. He had had many conversations on the quertion of the principle of rating with the Provincial Secretary (his colleague from the Wairarapa), and he must say, notwithstanding the assertion of Mr Ludlarn, that he and his' colleague had always differed on the principle of rating—he being in favor of an acerage rate, while his colleague had ever been a consistent upholder of the principle of rating by value. As he said before, he had endeavored to procure from the Government some modification of the bill: and not having been successful, he must withdraw his support on this occasion, though he had no doubt the Government would survive that. The injustice of the bill was felt very keenly by the enterprising and industrious settlers. A man who had spent years of labor and thousands of money upon his land, would by this bill, have to pay about five times more than a lazy neighbor who had not exerted himself or done anything to improve his land. The great burden of the tax must fall on improved lands ; and he felt that the time had not come for such a cast iron measure. It would have been much better if the Government had seen their way to supplementing the main lines of roads and keeping the tolls up. If this bill should become law, a great amount of power would devolve upon the Government, and be would like to point out to them the necessity for care and judgment in laying out the districts. He regretted the Government were so inflexible in the matter, and it was with a large share of that feeling that he would vote against the bill. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said he must express the pleasure experienced by the Government at the tone the debate had taken ; as it was gratifying to find that in other respects they possessed the sympathy of the Council. He knew they had undertaken a hard task; and if anything could make them do their duty with zeal, it was to know they possessed the confidence and respect of the Council. He regretted he should have to characterise the intelligent member for the \Hutt (Mr Ludlarn) as one who always took a gloomy view of things present, and still gloomier forebodings for the future ; but that was his peculiar cast of mind. It was not his. He considered such misanthrophy injurious to the man whoindulged in it and to the county in which he resided. No position was so gloomy that it could not be made better, but it could not be done but by that foe to all stagnation —energy and perseverance, and that meant taxing and putting their shoulders to the wheel; and no country could point to anything like progress and prosperity that was not heavily taxed and had an energetic people. Let them look over the whole world in confirmation of this theory. Those who were not taxed were poor and ground down, and those who were well to do were paying heavy taxes and were able to pay them. It was wrong to say the rating clause was a bar to improvement, and urust to the frugal and industrious. The bill was aimed at, and would touch most effectively, those who had made wealth in the country, and who were now endeavoring to enjoy that wealth without contributing a fair share to the general requirements of the? count;/. The bill, in short, aimed at taxing wealth, which ought to be the very foundation of all taxation. As to the charges of jobbery made against the bill, the slightest reflection would show that it was the very best thing that could be done to defeat all attempts at jobbing. Nor would the objection that it would be expensive in the working, and that it would be impossible to get wardens without paying them, be found a bit more tenable. That point in particular was one on which he anticipated not the slightest difficulty. From their knowledge of human nature, could they say that there were not numerous intelligent settlers who would gladly give their services for the benefit of their fellow-settlers and the district. There was a good deal of talk about dull times and heavy taxation, but he questioned very much indeed whether that was not mainly—nay, wholly—due to our own supineness, a waiting in the expectation that some unexpected providence would eome and put food in our mouths. Let them compare the two last census, and say was the increase creditable to a young, rising, energetic country, with such manifold this province presented ? He was not surprised that Mr Brandon did not agree with the bill, though he was rai her surprised when he found that the hon. gentleman had not read it j but if that hon. member had brought down such a measure when he was on the Government benches, he would have been seated on them now in all probability. He need not say much in refutation of Mr Watt’s objection, who thought things were going along quite pleasantly, and nothing w r as required to be done. To Mr Hutchison, who said the bill was in some respects good, but premature, he might say that was an evil of which every day world cure them. The hon. member (Mr A. Milne) had . said that he had sounded his (Mr Bunny’s) constituents in the Wairarapa. Well, he could assure the hon. member that he was always prepared to meet his constituents at any moment. In bringing forward such a measure as this he was about to ask them to pass, neither he nor his colleagues had been actuated by any other consideration than that the country required, and urgently indeed, some such measure. They were fully aware that it could not meet the wishes of everyone; but could a bill be pro* duced that would P or, if those gentlemen who were now opposing it were locked up in a room could they produce such a bill P —could they, in fact, produce a bill, of any kind ? Why, no two of them seemed to agree on any one of the principles contained in the bill. However, if

he assumed this tone it wasnotin disparagement of the hon. members who saw fit to oppose the bill, nor did he do so on account of the position he then occupied, and in which they had placed him; but because they had taken a certain course of action after the most calm and careful deliberation; and now if the Council saw fit in their wisdom to reject, the second reading of this bill, the Government would feel themselves reluctantly compelled to resign those high duties which had been placed in their hands. He would, therefore, call upon members, in dealing with this question, not to look at individuals, or how they would be affected, bat keep their eyes on the position of the province at this moment. Let them also think of the bill in connection with that action which would be taken in a higher place in a few weeks j let them look at the aspect of the province, whose name had almost become a by-word in all other provinces—and they would see that it was a question to the consideration of which they ought to bring all their calmness and consideration before voting against the bill. Already they could see that a state of things was coming on which was creating a certain amount of confidence in the future of the province; and before they took a step which would falsify those expectations they should pause. But if they chose to give an adverse vote, the Government, while looking on it with the deepest regret, would still feel it their duty to accept that as a defeat and resign. (Loud applause.) It being then put that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the question, a division was called for, and the Council divided. The result was— For— ll:—Messrs Bunny, Halcombe, Hunter, Borlase, Dransfield, Masters, Anderson, Pearce, Crawford, Morgan, Pharazyn. Against W., Tnynne, Watt, Andrews, Milne, A., Hutchison, Fagan, Renal 1 . Ludlarn. The bill was ordered to be committed presently. On the Council resuming at 7 o’clock, the Toll Gates Act, 1871, was made an order of the day for Tuesday next. THE RECLAIMED LAND ACT was read a third time and passed. The second reading of the EDUCATION ACT. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER said he intended to bring the bill before the Council in a modified form on Tuesday next, if the Council would have no objections. Mr HUTCHISON hoped that the Government in making their modifications, would, as the basis of any alterations they might propose, continue those local boards which had been in operation. The second reading of the bill was made an order of the day for Tuesday next. The Council then went into committee on the HIGHWAYS ACT. Some discussion ensued on the second clause (repeal clause), Mr Ludlam urging that from the wording of the clause people were liable to be rated twice—that the clause was not sufficiently clear in the wording. The clause was ultimately postponed. Clause 5, which allowed female qualification, was amended so as to exclude female ratepayers from a voice in the election of wardens. A long discussion ensued upon clause 6 (defining highway districts and wards). The clause ultimately passed in its original form. Clause 7 was objected to on the ground that the power given the Superintendent to alter from time to time the wards in any district without making any communication on the matter was dangerous : but it was pointed out that they would only be altered to meet the exigencies of representation, and that no possibility of any one being able to evade the rating of the act would ensue. Mr HUTCHISON suggested the advisability of the Government coming to some decision as to the maximum or minimum number of wards in any district, Mr PEARCE directed attention to the necessity of providing against a preponderance of power falling into the hands of townships in laying out these wards. No township should constitute more than one ward. Mr LUDLAM moved that a proviso be added guarding that any ward should not be altered before communication being held with the board of wardens by the Government He thought this a necessary safeguard against the Executive of the day. Ultimately this clause was postponed.

In clause 8, sub-section 2, which provides for the presiding officer in the election of wardens being appointed by the Superintendent, Mr HUTCHISON moved, as an amendment —“That a resident magistrate should preside, or, in the event of there being no resident magistrate, a justice of the peace.” The amendment being lost, the clause passed in the original form. Clause 10 (with four sub-sections) which provides for taking a poll, elicited a diversified expression of opinion, but was ultimately agreed to without amendments. Clause 11 (providing for the gazetting of wardens) was passed without alteration. Clause 12, empowering the Superintendent to appoint a warden in the event of a failure in the election of such an officer, was agreed to. In clause 13, that wardens continue for tbvee V 63JSj Mr HUTCHISON proposed the substitution of the word “ two.” A division being called for, the result was: — For the amendment, 9; against, 11. The clause as printed was then passed. On clause 14 (that the seat of a warden shall be vacated in certain cases, at the same time granting the board power to fill up such vacancy), Mr Ludlam proposed that the vacancy should be filled by election. Postponed for consideration: Clause 15 (election of new wardens) was read and passed, when Mr BRANDON moved that progress he re-

ported. Agreed to, and the Council adjourned to Tuesday next, at 3 p.m., the 16rh clause being made an order of the day for that day. Tuesday, June 20. The SPEAKER took the chair at 3 o’clock. PETITION. Mr ANDREWS presented a land petition from Richard Young, late of H.M. 14th Regiment. Received, read, and ordered to be printed. Mr THYNNE presented a petition from a number of natives at Otaki, prajing that a road be made. Received and read. NOTICES OP MOTION. Several notices of motion were given. The Council then went into Committee on the DISTRICT HIGHWAYS BILL, Commencing at Clause 17, regulating the order of business. Mr DRANSFIELD moved that all the clauses between Clauses 17 and 37 be postponed until after the latter clause was disposed of. He made the motion with the object of facilitating business, as that clause contained the whole gist of the measure. After that was disposed of, the rest would be plain sailing. Mr LUDLAM opposed, on the ground that many members, not then in Council, who would like to share in the discussion of such an important clause, would be taken by surprise. Mr BORLASE thought it unreasonable to ask members to waste their time, and perish with cold, over subsidiary clauses, none of which affected the principle of the bill. Mr DRANSFIELD could not see that memders were taken by surprise, as the bill was the first item on the order paper. Considerable discussion ensued on this point, Mr Ludlam opposing the postponement of the clauses, on the ground that the course was unusual, and unseemly. Being an old representative, he had been several times entrapped by such devices, and had become more wary. This view was combated by the Government, on the ground that the course was a perfectly common one, and that the motion was merely made to expedite business, and spare hon. members an unnecessary amount of discomfort. There was no desire to shirk discussion on the part of the Government, who felt themselves strong in the justice of the principle of the bill, and in the sense of the country. This passage brought from Mr Dransfield the explanation that his motion was a pure suggestion of his own, and was made without the cognisance of the Government. The Government intimated that they had received numerous letters from the country favorable to the bill. Mr Ludlam, on the other hand, said he too had received letters condemning the bill; in fact, he had not heard one from the country speak in favor of it. Some liveliness took place between Mr Ludlam and Mr Borlase, the former making some reflections on some extraordinary and mysterious tactics which had been practiced to increase the supporters of the h 11. Mr Borlase loudly demanded “ Name, fit me.” Mr Ludlam said he would not give any name, but said no doubt the matter would become public. Some pleasant banter then took place between Mr Watt and Mr Pharazyn respecting the absence of Mr Finnimore, the former saying he had heard a rumor that his colleague had been told not to disturb himself about attending the session, as the business of the Council would soon be over, end he would be appointed valuator for the province. Mr Pharazyn thought this just such a cock-and-bull story as the hon. member was likely to believe. The Government urged it was a waste of time to dally over the clauses asked to be postponed, when the very head and point of the bill was contained in the 37th clause, and denied that they wished to take any unfair advantage. Mr Hutchison then put in that the best way of showing their sincerity would be by proceeding with the clauses seriatim. With reference to the mysterious telegram and extraordinary tactics emanating from a friend of the Government, Mr PHARAZYN explained the real truth of the matter. He had received a telegram from Mr Finnimore, asking if there was any occasion for him to come. To this he replied that there" was no use in coming. He had, further, received a letter from Mr Finnimore that day, in which he acknowledged the receipt of the telegram, and saying he was glad to see that his presence was not needed, and at the end of the letter he said he “ was not sure whether he should not have voted with the Government on the bill. Mr WATT interjected: I can tell the hon member I have sent a telegram for Mr Finnimore to come down as soon as possible. The discussion was then taken up by other hon members, during the course of which Mr Brandon urged that the bill should be postponed. The request was replied to by the Provincial Secretary, who was not surprised at the opinion of the hon member for Porirua, who would, no doubt postpone to doomsday that or any other measure calculated to advance the interests of the province; and judging from the extraordmaiy enlightenment as to the real wants of the province which he seemed to possess now so suddenly, together with the long time he was in office without bringing forward a measure of any use, he suggested that the hon member’s arguments were not entitled to much consideration.

Mr HUNTER said, from the opinions expressed by people outside—and he had conversed with a great many on the matter—there seemed to be considerable misapprehension as to the real spirit of the bill; but ho was happy to say that on taking a little pains to explain the principle thoroughly, he had the satisfaction of making converts of a great many people. The hon member said the speech of the hon member for the city (Mr Anderson) put the philosophy of the bill in a nut shell. As the bill contained a principle,

that was mainly in the 37th clause, it really seemed a waste of time to defer deciding the fate of the measure at once. A division was then called for onMrDransfield’s motion, that the clauses between 16 and 37 be postponed. The result was For, 13 ; Messrs Taylor, Masters, Pearce, Pharazyn, Crawford, Dransfield, Borlase, Hunter, Halcombe, Bunny, W. W. Taylor, Morgan, and Anderson. Against, B.—Messrs Fagan, Ludlam, Hutchison, Brandon, Thynne, A. Milne, Watt, and Andrew. The clauses were then postponed, when . Mr HUTCHISON moved the introduction of a new clause. He had no objection to the proposed mode of raising a revenue, when it was for the general purposes of government ; but in this case it was different—all this money was wanted for was for the purpose of merely making roads within the provisions of this hill. , n This proposition was not accepted by the government, who urged that they would not attempt to please all parties, as they felt they must fail ignominiously if they did so. They had therefore taken their stand upon something approaching, as nearly as it was possible, to an equitable basis of taxation, feeling that no other course was calculated to bring the province out of its present difficulties. Mr WATT thought these difficulties purely imaginary. Where had the Government learned that any dissatisfaction existed, when there had not been a single petition laid before the Council that would indicate the existence of any of those difficulties. The discussion generally, however, was merely travelling over the same ground already gone over in the debate on the second reading. Mr LUDLAM said if the amendment was not adopted he would move that the tax be based on the natural value of the land. Mr MORGAN would like to know if clause 37 was affirmed it would prevent him introducing several clauses providing for the mode of assessment, but which would in no way affect the principle of the bill. He confessed that he was astonished that members could say that the bill took anyone by surprise, as he had ventilated the same principles as contained in the bill twelve months ago, in a newspaper at Wanganui. He was therefore, in a manner, bound to support his own ° P The US PROVINCIAL SECRETARY informed the hon. member that there was nothing to prevent him introducing the proposed clause in order to make the assessment voluntary. The Council then divided on the amendment that the clause be expunged, with the following result: —For, 8 ; Messrs Brandon, Hutchison, Watt, Taylor, Thynne, Milne, A. Milne, W. and Ludlam. Against, 13 : Messrs Hunter, Halcombe, Bunny, Crawford, Pharazyn, Morgan, Masters, W. W. Taylor, Anderson, Borlase, Dransfield, Pearce aßd Taylor. Mr LUDLAM then proposed an amendment, providing that any money raised in a particular ward, should be spent in that ward, and that only. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY could not accept a proposition entirely opposed to the fundamental principle of the bill, and calculated to neutralise the objects sought to be attained by the bill, which was expressely intended to put roads all over the province. _ Mr MASTERS thought the chief merit of the bill was that it sought to make roads were there was now, neither roads nor road hoards and those were the plaees he wanted to see made accessible. Mr MILNE thought the Council would not he wise in discarding the old uniform acreage rate, until they had got rid of all the large blocks of land owned by people in the province, as the chief object of that tax was to press unequally, so that those who held large blocks unproductively, should he made to feel its pressure. In the Rangitikei, it had the desired efiect, as it cleared out the most of the large land owners. Mr HUTCHISON referred the Council to the 27th clause to show that they had no power to make roads unless by consent of the rate payers in any district. That would dispel the golden visions of Mr Masters, who wanted to gee roads, made everywhere. After some remarks combatting the impressions of the last speaker, the amendment was put, and the Council divided, the result being:— Ayes—7:—Messrs Brandon, Hutchison, Watt, A. Milne, Fagan, W. Milne, Ludlam. Noes —13 : —Messrs Bunny, Hunter, Anderson, Crawford, Halcombe, W. W. Taylor, Masters, Dransfield, Morgan, Pearce Pharazyn, Borlase, Taylor. The amendment having been thus rejected, the clause was then put in its original form and agreed to on the voices.On the Council resuming at half-past seven, an amendment was proposed to clause 38 by Mr Brandon, in order to alter the proposed mode of recovering the rate by service or by notice by post. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY pointed Out that it was a mere matter of economy. The object of the Government was to simplify as much as possible the mode of collection by the board and reduce the cost attendant upon having to send a collector to every part of the district. There were no places that could not be reached by post ; and any expense that was avoided in the collection of the rates would be so much the more funds at the disposal of the board for the legitimate purpose for which they were originally raised. . The amendment was rejected and the clause passed on the voices. Clause 39 was also passed.

On clause 40. Mr W. Milne proposed an amendment which was rejected and the clause passed ; as also clause 41. . On clause 42, enabling the board, in the event of the occupier leaving the propertywhile in arrears of rates, to recover either from the occupier or the owner, Mr BRANDON proposed as an amendment

that the occupier alone should he the person to pursue. Considerable discussion took place on this clause, but ultimately the amendment was rejected, without a division. Subsequently the clause was postponed in order to embody a provision, the suggestion of Mr Ludlam that the owner should not become liable unless proceedings against the occupier for the recovery of rates had failed.

Clauae 43 waß passed. On clause 44 (Crown and General Government exempt from rates), an amendment was proposed by Mr Ludlam that the Superintendent be made liable to the board.

Mr W. MILNE proposed that the clause be struck out. Mr Lndlam’s amendment was put, and the Council divided. The result was :—Ayes, 9; Noes, 12. The clause was therefore declared carried. Clause 46, (petition for special rate) with five sub-sections, was]agreed to without alteration.

Clauses 47, 48, 49, 50, were passed as read. On clause 51 (nine sub sections) providing for the discharge of the liabilities of a board, being read, Mr Hutchison proposed an amendment in sub-section one. Postponed. Clauses 52 and 53, were passed as read. In clause 54, providing for banking and withdrawing money, the blank sum which the treasurer can retain in his hands was filled up by £2O ; the orders for withdrawing money to he countersigned by two members of the board. The clause was then passed. Clause 55, providing for the keeping of the accounts was passed, the month of September being fixed as the time when a full abstract of the accounts shall be sent into the Superintendent. Clauses 56 and 57 were passed without alteration. Clause 58, imposing penalties for offences, was postponed for further consideration on the recommendation of Mr Ludlam. Clause 59 was read and passed. On clause 60 being read, which provides for a contingency such as a board neglecting to perform its duty by enabling the Superintendent to appoint a person to supersede the board, and thus preventing the machinery of the act coming to a standstill, considerable discussion ensued, hon. members stating that the wording of the clause was rather indefinite. Postponed. Clauses 61 and 62 postponed. Clauses 63, 64, and 65 were passed without discussion. The committee then resumed the consideration of clause 17, which had been postponed, and passed it without comment, as they did also clauses 18 and 19. In clause 20 (board to maintain roads) Mr Hutchison moved, as an amendment, that the atter portion of the clause, exempting the roads known as the Great North-eastern and Great North-western from the control of the board be struck out, in order that the hoards might take over the management of these road as well as the district roads. Mr MORGA N also took the same view.. Mr LUDLAM took an opposite view. Roads not running through valuable property, such as the road over the Rimutaka, that over the Paikakariki and Horikiwi road, the hon. member thought would fall into a very bad state of repair if entrusted to the district boards, though he by no means thought the Government had been remarkable for any efficiency in their care of the main roads hitherto. He thought a system of tender for the repair of the roads would be advisable, m preference to the present system of pottering bv day labor. _ The PROVINCIAL TREASURER said that plan had been tried and failed lamentably. The clause as read was passed. Clause 21 (closing roads during execution of works) passed without amendment; and 22, 23, 24, and 25, without comment. On clause 26, providing for the board fixing the price at £3 per acre of any piece of road which they may have deemed it advisable to closs and sell, the adjoining owner having the refusal of purchase, an amendment was proposed in order to allow competition for the piece of land. Postponed. Clauses 27, 28, 29, providing for the opening of new highways, restoring fences, &c., were passed. Clauses 30 and 31, defining what is rateable property, were passed as read. Mr BRANDON moved that progress be reported, as the next clause (32), making the valuation triennial, was a debateable one. Mr MORGAN said it was his intention to move the substitution of new clauses instead of clauses 32 to 36, inclusive. He was anxious that the system of valuation and assessment should be similar to that in force in Nelson, viz., every man to be the valuer of his own property. t , . In order to simplify matters, a division was called for to ascertain the opinion of the Council as to whether clause 32 should be erased. The amendment was put, and the result was: —For expunging the clause, 9; against, 11* The clause was amended, in order to make the act come into operation in July instead of for March, 1872. A proviso to the clause was then moved by Mr Brandon. A division was at once called for. The result was; For the amendment, 9 ; against, 11. , The clause was then read and passed, and also the remaining clauses up to the 37th. Progress was then reported, and the Council adjourned to three o’clock that day, it being then aquarter past twelve.

Wednesday, June 21. The Speaker took the chair at 3 p.m. PETITIONS COMMITTEE. The report of this committee was. brought up and read, and notice of motion given that a respectful address be presented to his Honor requesting him to place £9O on the estimates to satisfy the claims of petitioners,

AUDIT COMMITTEE. Mr HUTCHISON moved—For the appointment of the following committee to audit the provincial accounts for the year ending 31st March, 1871, with power to call for persons and papers; the committee to consist of Messrs Pearce, Watt, Ludlam, Dransfield, Morgan, and the mover ; three to form a quorum. Agreed to. UNAUTHORISED EXPENDITURE. The Council went into committee to consider the following motion, made by the Provincial Treasurer ; —“ That this Council requests his Honor the Superintendent to send to this Council a recommendation to grant the sum of £695 17s 4d, to meet the unauthorised expenditure made under special orders from time to time issued by £ the Superintendent.” Agreed to. LAND SCRIP. Mr PHARAZYN moved —" That the decision of the General Assembly embodied in the Williamson Compensation Act, 1868, should be carried out by the Provincial Government, and land sCrip to the amount of £SOO be issued for that purpose.” By the motion of the Provincial Legislature, Mr Williamson Had become debarred from obtaining his claim, which was confirmed by the decision of the General Assembly. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER said that the Council last session took a very de cided tone in opposing this claim, sanctioned by the Assembly, which, in its wisdom and generosity, gave the Provincial Council power to grant Mr Williamson five hundred acres of land. From the circumstances of the case, with which members of the Council were tolerably familiar, he did not consider Mr Williamson had any proper claim upon the Provincial Government, or against any one, hut if he had a claim of any kind upon any one, it must be on the General Government. The Government, therefore, could not entertain the claim. Mr WATT thought the claim should be examined, so as to decide the matter for good. It was necessary to know in what relation the Provincial Government stood with regard to the orders of the General Government. As for the justness of the claim, he could say that he knew several settlers on the same creek who suffered at the same time as great damage as Mr Williamson, and yet no complaints were heard from them. Mr LUDLAM thought the Council not competent to deal with the matter. But if they were to consider it, he thought the hon. mover should have asked for a committee of the Council to enquire into the claim. It was not right for the Council to go outside of the act providing for this claim, and which had lapsed. freemasons’ grant. Mr WATT moved for leave to bring in a bill to amend “ The Wanganui Freemasons’ Grant Act, 1868.” Granted, the bill read a first time, ordered to be printed, and the second reading made an order of the day for Friday next. WAIRARAPA TRUSTS. Mr BORLASE moved “ For leave to bring in a bill to declare the trusts of certain lands in the township of Masterton, in the Wairarapa district, and to provide for the appointment of trustees therein.” Agreed to ; bill read a first time, ordered to be printed, and read a second time that day week. Mr BORLASE moved “For leave to bring in a bill to declare the trusts of certain lands in the township of Greytown, in the Wairarapa district, and to provide for the appointment of trustees therein-” Dealt with in a similar manner to the previous bill. HIGHWAYS BILL. The Council further considered this bill in committee, clause one having been recommitted for the purpose of substituting the month of July instead of March. The clauses which had been postponed for further consideration were then gone into. Clause 2 passed as printed ; clauses 7,14, 26, 42, 51, 58, were all amended in accordance with the suggestions of hon. members, anl passed in that form. In clause 60, enabling the Superintendent to supersede the Board for neglect of duty, the Government refused to make the alterations'suggested, but it was otherwise amended. Passed. Clause 61 as read was passed. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY then proposed the insertion of two clauses after clause 29, providing against gorse spreading on highways by compelling the owner to cut the same ; and also providing that trees, &c„ overhanging, to be removed at cost of occupier of the land. The clauses, after slight alteration, were read and passed. A new clause to follow 66, providing that a road may be occupied for pasture under certain conditions, was also passed. The schedules of the bill were then passed with some slight amendments, the bill reported as amended, and the consideration of the amendments made an order of the day for to-morrow. On the Council resuming at 7 o’clock, THE TOLL GATES BILL was brought on for its second reading by the Provincial Secretary, who explained the nature and provisions of the bill. Read a second time and ordered to be committed. EDUCATION BILL. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER moved that the Wellington Education Bill be read a second time. He never experienced greater pleasure in rising in his place in the Council than he did on that occasion to bring forward a measure to remedy the defects of the present system of education, and enable the youth of the province to receive that mental and moral culture only to be attained by a good system of education. The Government hoped by means of this bill to provide for the intellectual and moral advancement of the province, as they had by the Highways Bill provided for its material progress. The Go-

vernment recognised that inasmuch as it was the duty of the state to provide education, so was it the duty of property to contribute to this end. They therefore proposed to adopt the same assessment embodied in the District Highways Act, and levy a rate of one half penny in the pound on all rateable property throughout the province, the whole expenditure to be controlled by an elected board, and inspectors. Wherever it was shown that a school was needed, they had provided that a complete and perfect school in all its parts, should at once be started into existence. He had conversed with a great many persons from other provinces, who had considerable experience in educational matters, and the first remark they had invariably made was, that the money question was the first consideration: It would be seen that in addition to the assessment, the capitation tax, similar to that in Nelson, had been imposed on all parents and guardians. The hon. gentleman pointed out to the observation of the Council, that at present in England, there was going on a great struggle in order to the establishment of such a unity of action, as they proposed to attain in this province by their measures. As regarded religious education, they had adopted the principle known as the “ secular system.” _ As it was utterly impossible with their mixed and scattered population to provide separate schools for the various sects, they had provided for religious teaching at particular hours. In order to secure uniformity of action they had deemed it advisable to entrust the central board with considerable powers. In introducing the biU to the Council, he might, however, say that the Government were not going to take the same attitude as with the Highways Act; but while willing to accept any reasonable modifications, if any such great change waß effected as to destroy the principle of the bill, the Government would be inclined to drop it altogether, and allow the consequent onus to rest with the Council. Mr HUTCHISON said he was not so much opposed to the bill for what it contained as that it did not contain enough. With reference to religious education, he felt there was a storm in the horizon that might burst one of these days. Few men were more liberal on the score of religious education than himself, yet he would have preferred that the bill had not contained a word on religious education. He regretted this, as it gave the bill the look of the play of “ Hamlet” with the principal character omitted. He objected to such an innovation on all systems of education as taking all right and voice in the management of the education of children from their parents and natural guardians. This was destroying a fundamental principle of justice, justifi«d both by tradition and instinct from time immemorial—it was, in fact, an inversion of the natural order of things—it was assuming the position of masters by the board while they actually should be the servants of the public, and therefore the servants of parents and guardians. All this went to show that there was a fundamental principle at stake, which the Council was not justified in setting aside in the usurpation of powers of that delicate nature which they were incompetent to exercise properly. Seeing, therefore, that the bill was deficient in the one important point of all others, necessary in such a measure, he would move that the bill be remitted to a select committee.

Mr BRANDON would second the proposition of the hon member, though he would rather see the bill rejected altogether. It seemed to be a bad measure to teach the people how to manage their educational matters, as it took it out of their hands entirely. Individually he would prefer seeing people compelled to send their children to school, but there was nothing touching this point in any part of the bill. The unfair mode of raising the education fund by assessment and capitation, was also a great objection. Some more equitable mode of taxation ought to have been fixed upon. As it was now, it became merely a tax upon property. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said the Government could not consent to the motion of the hon member for Wanganui ; because, as the Provincial Treasurer had said, they would rather withdraw the bill than send it to be torn to pieces by a select committee. The only objection advanced by the hon member against the bill was, that the parents and guardians were not entrusted with the control. Clearly, when it was admitted that education was primarily the duty of the Btate, it was also clear that this hill was aiming in the proper direction ; because he need not tell hon members that if the control of education were left in the hands of parents and guardians, the education of children would be sadly neglected. The compulsory view, though sound enough as an abstract objection, could not be made to apply at present; and before resorting to the alternative of compelling parents to send their children, it would be wise to try first if people could not be enticed to send their children to school. A a for local committees, he could conceive no other result from them than an infinity of complication and misunderstanding. Already there was sufficient power entrusted to them. Besides, the powers contained in the bill would enable them to secure a superior class of schoolmasters, many of whom were now dragging out a miserable existence, and who, if some steps were not taken to employ them, might be driven out of reach altogether. It had been said that the General Government were about to bring in a measure which was to apply to the North Island alone, but they were not sure that bill would be passed. Tf it was, then it might he that they would not feel themselves compelled to work under this act j but if the General Assembly brought in any measure, hon. members might rest assured that it would be a measure which would involve heavier taxation than this hill, and that the last thing it would contemplate would be

the wants and wishes of those local committees spoken of. The lion, member for Porirua objected to the piiucijile of' taxation in the bill, and would like to see it go further. Well, the Government viewed the matter in the light that upon property —’real estate —should chiefly fall the great burden of providing for education ; but the bill also provided gratuitous education for the children of those who were too poor to pay the assessment. The bill was much the same as that in force in Nelson as regarded the children ; and it might have boen so in other respects if the funds of the province of Wellington were in such a flourishing state as to admit of their contributing towards the education system of the province. He trusted the Council would reject the proposition of the hon. member for Wanganui, by recognising that the bill was a great step in the direction of providing an efficient system of education for the children of the province. Mr PEARCE was glad the Government had taken the course they had with this bill, because the remittance of the bill to a committee such as that named by the hon. member for Wanganui simply meant to shelve it altogether. He had listened very carefully to the speech of the hon. member, but confessed that he could not understand the arguments used. The hon. member spoke in favor of local committees, while in the same breath he admitted they had been a failure. He regretted that the clauses were so worded, but admitted the necessity which existed for it, and would not therefore object. There was j ustice in the remarks of the hon. member for Porirua, who denied that property alone should bear the brunt of taxation • but while admitting the injustice of it—for he saw no valid reason why the taxation should not be more comprehensive —he felt there was a need for it now, and that it was the only way open to the Government. The hon. gentleman went at considerable length into the different bearings of the bill, and concluded by supporting the second reading. Mr W. MILNE was glad to see that at last the feeling was gaining grouud that a natural responsibility in the organisation of society was that it should bear a large share of the expense of education ; but he was surprised that the worth and usefulness of local committees were bo overlooked. In all systems, with the exception, perhaps, of the Prussian system, local management was one of the mainsprings of the whole system. This was notably the case in the United States of America. In Scotland they had recently been discussing an act in which the assistance of local boards was recognised as almost indispensable in the machinery of education. Still, while regretting the hostility of the Government to local committees, he would support the second reading, if it was only to show the General Government the views entertained on education by the people of this province. It would not do to let the General Government think that the present abortion of an education bill in force represented the views of' the people of the province on education.

Mr ANDERSON objected to the bill being referred to a select committee, inasmuch as it would have the effect of depriving the Government of one of their most important functions. Besides, if the bill were sent down to a select committee, the result would be that no more perfect measure would be introduced, but a mangled and shapeless thing would be brought down which its original authors would fail to recognise. If the bill was not an entirely perfect measure, it was certainly a most pi’omising instalment of excellent legislation in this direction in the future. The hon. member then proceeded to comment on the main features of the bill, approving of them in the main, though he confessed that, for the life of him, he could not conceive what was meant by a religious education not being controversial. From the very nature of it, all religions were controversial; and that clause was only calculated to lead to some very disagreeable results. While being about to vote for the second reading of the bill, he would still like to see that clause referred to struck out.

Mr ANDREWS said thi3 province contrasted mest unfavorably with other provinces in the matter of education. Going on board the ship England, he was asked by an intending settler what facilities were presented by this province for the education of his children. Being bound to tell him that there were other provinces in which greater facilities were afforded, tl n result was that the man and his family took themselves elsewhere, the province thereby losing a settler and his family and the capitation allowance. Much as he valued education, and much as he admitted the necessity for it in this province, he yet felt compelled to vote against the second reading of the bill, on the ground that its taxation was put on too narrow a basis. Not only real but personal property should be taxed.

Mr PHARAZYN, while admitting that the method of taxation proposed by.the bill was erroneous in principle, felt that it was, so to speak, an emergency measure ; and although he would exercise his right to try to modify the bill in some respects, he would still vote for the bill as a whole if he failed to obtain those alterations. He entirely concurred with the Government in the view they took of local committees, and also in the view taken by Mr Anderson, that affording religious education was not part of the duty of the state. If they provided secular education, and allowed the pupils to obtain their religious instruction at home or from their religious instructor, they fulfilled all the duties that could be expected from them. Still, if this clause could not be expunged, he felt that the bill, as a whole, was a good beginning, and would give a momentum to education which would prevent it from again in coming to a standstill. Mr LTJDLAM thought that the referring the bill to a select committtee would be rather an advantage than otherwise. But he trusted

the hon member for Wanganui would withdraw his amendment for the present, until the bill had received its second reading. He could then get it referred to a select committee, and if he allowed the Government to name the committee it would be an advantage to the object in view. There was great room for amendment in the bill, and no direction more so than on the subject of local committees. Owing to the weakness of the present bill, and the hostility of a few of the unthinking portion of the inhabitants in the district he came from, the object of the bill was defeated and education neglected. Of course so long as any assistance could be obtained, there was no difficulty in keeping the schools open ; but directly it became necessary to tax for the purpose a few people put their back up against taxation for any such purpose, and succeeded in thwarting the object of the bill. This would point to compulsory education, but, while he was heartily in favor of the compulsory system, he doubted whether it was perfectly possible. Although this bill was not directly compulsory, it was indirectly so ; and there was no doubt that, as people generally chose to use that which they were called upon to pay for, as in the bill before the Council, the result would doubtless be the same as if the bill was purely compulsory. With regard to denominational schools, he thought it would be injudicious to deprive those schools of assistance. The hon. gentleman trusted the Government would see their way to referring the bill to a Select Committee in the manner he proposed. Mr THYNNE was happy to say that at last he found himself able to give a hearty support to the Government; and would feel still more gratified if the Government could see their way to accepting some few amendments he had to propose in committee. Still he feared that if the assistance of local committees was ignored, the system would become deprived of very valuable aid. Mr EAGAN would support the second reading of the bill. It was a common feeling of the Council that some such act as this had long been wanted in country districts ; but it was also well known that school committees had proved themselves often energetic and disinterested bodies of men who had rendered most valuable service, though latterly their efforts had been sadly crippled for want of means and an efficient Act; and, in fact, in many instances had practically ceased to be of any use. He could heartily sympathise with the remarks of his hon. colleague, Mr Ludlam, in all he had said in regard to the obstructions raised by an ignorant few against an education rate when it became absolutely necessary. He was glad to hear that the Government had expressed themselves as not being as inflexible in presenting this bill as with the Highways Act; because that led him to indulge the hope that it might be the means of enabling such alterations and modifications to be made in committee as would render the bill more acceptable to the body of the people. Mr WATT confessed he was in a dilemma as to whether to vote for the second reading of the bill, or assist in throwing it out altogether. No doubt, the bill contained many excellent features, but embodied in it were also many objectionable ones. He "questioned very much, indeed, •whether the board to be nominated by the Council, was likely to effect as much good as local committees, who possessed every advantage in point of local information ; in fact, he regarded the centralising tendency of the Government in the bill as one of the worst features in it. On the whole, considering the imperative necessity that existed for some system of education, better than they at present enjoyed, he would vote for the second reading, though he would give it his keenest scrutiny in committee. He regretted his hon. colleague had nob sought the formation of his committee by ballot; if he. had done so, the motion should have had his support. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER, in reply, accepted with gratitude, the very general and cordial support accorded to the Government on this important matter by the Council. The Government proposed that the central board should undertake the management of the system of the appointment of teachers things in which local committees had utterly failed—and, apart from these duties, what was left for local committees to do ? He was opposed to all shams ; and to retain local committees under these circumstances was only perpetrating a sham. He must confess he was exceedingly surprised at the remarks of the hon member from Wlmreama. His closing remarks were entirely opposed to the spirit with which he prefaced his speech, by showing how much the province was losing by its imperfect system of education. As for the objections of the hon member against the bill, he ought to know that it was beyond the power of the Council to enact a direct compulsory system ; neither was it in their power to get at personal property in order to make it bear its share —they had not the machinery wherewith to do it. A widespread feeling existed in the province of the importance of education, together with an earnest desire to secure its blessings—people were every day recognising more and more the advantages of cultivating the brain, realising that the brain was the greatest motive power to deal with the forces surrounding them on every side ; and, therefore, knowing and feeling all this, the 'Government felt they were justified in levying the tax on real property, even though it might appear somewhat unfair at the first glance. The end justified the means. The Government, however, were not prepared to insist upon the Council swallowing the measure exactly as if it was a cast iron one ; they were quite ready to accept all reasonable modifications so as to frame the bill to be acceptable by the great majority of the people ; but as respected handing this bill over to a select committee, the Government felt that it would receive a more

careful and impartial examination at the hands of the whole Council than by *a select committee, which, from its very nature, must be more or less biassed. The amendment was then put and negatived on the voices ; but Mr Pharazyn asked for a division, in order that the names of hon. members who had spoken strongly on the matter might be placed upon record. The Council then divide! with the following result: — Eor the second reading of the bill—Messrs Bunny, Halcombo, Hunter, Borlase, Watt, Pearce, Anderson, Dransticld, Masters, Ludlam, Pharazyn, Eagan, Thynne, J. Taylor, W. Milne, Renall, Crawford—l 7. Against—Messrs Brandon, Andrew, A. Milne, Morgan, Hutchison—s. The bill was then read a second time, and made an order of the day for to-morrow. The Council then adjourned till three p.m to-morrow. Thursday, June 22. The SPEAKER took the chair at 3 o’clock. PETITION. Mr PEARCE presented a land petition from James Brady, formerly of H.M’s. 65th Regiment. Received and read. PAPERS. Memoranda of the railway works recommended to the General Government for construction were laid upon the table and ordered to be printed. NOTICES OP MOTION. Several notices of motion were made. BREACH OP PRIVILEGE. Mr W. MILNE called the attention of the Council to an article which appeared in a paper published that morning commenting upon and laying down what should be the duties of a member of the Council under certain circumstances. The article in question, in referring to some remarks made by the hon member on the census returns, said that he ought to be prepared either to retract what he had said, or go further, in order to justify himself in making such a statement. To act upon such advice as that, would simply be to make a man a common informer. While ho felt much obliged to the editor of the newspaper for giving him an importance he was not aware he possessed, he still thought that a little more discretion should be exercised by members of the press in commenting upon detached words dropped in the heat of debate, No doubt these words attributed to him might be perfectly true; but still he had guarded himself in saying what he did about the census returns—that it was doubtless due to a “ clerical error.” The hon. gentleman then recapitulated that portion of the debate ferred to, in the course of which he referred to that particular item which had amused him, and called forth the remarks which had been commented upon by the newspaper, viz., that one item in agricultural statistics for the district of Rangitikei put down the area of wheat under cultivation at 171£, while the estimated produce in bushels was stated to be 16,470; of course the estimate was so extravagant, that it could only be attributed to a clerical mistake. The hon. member also pointed out other mistakes of a like nature which had since come under his observation ; and availed himself of that opportunity of calling attention to something not creditable to the province With regard, however, to the real matter before the Council, he wished to say that while he would be very sorry to see members of the Council too ready to seek shelter on every little pretext under these privileges, and also sorry to wound the feelings of anyone in this matter, he yet thought that members of the press should more fully consider the position of members of the Council, and display a nicer discrimination in their comments on the proceedings for the future. The SPEAKER pointed out to the hon member that unless he intended to follow his speech by tabling a motion of some sort he was entirely out of order. After a few observations of an unimportant character from several members, the matter dropped. UNSOLD TORTIONS OE RECLAIMED LAND. Mr WATT moved—“Eor a return of the quantity of the unsold portion of the reclaimed land, and the value of the same at the present valuation.” The necessary return had been already laid on the table. COMPENSATION CLAIMS. In committee, Mr PEARCE moved—“ That a respectful address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent to place on the estimates the sum of £9O, for the purchase of land, in order to satisfy the claims of Robert Bright, of Charles Jeffcotb, and of William Crozier, in terms of the report of the Public Petitions Committee, presented to this Council 21st June, 1871.” The Commissioners had gone carefully into the allegations, and discovered that they were correct. The whole of them were merely matters of oversight on the part of the petitioners. Mr LUDLAM thought these reports should be printed, unless they were very long. At present he was in some doubt as to the exact grounds on which the petitioners based their claims. Agreed to. MR IRWIN’S CLAIM. Mr PEARCE moved —“ That a respectful address be presented to his Honor the Superintendent, to place on the Estimates the sum of fifty pounds to be paid to Frederick Henry Irwin, in accordance with the recommendation of the Public Petition’s Interim Report, No. 2.” The substance of the claim was briefly this:—Mr Irwin went to the Land office, and paid in a deposit of £SO for pastoral land in the Waitotara. The surveys, however, had not been completed up till 1870. In the meantime, the purchaser found out that the so-called pasture land was nothing but a sand desert. He then went to the Land Commissioner, who

gave a promise to refund the money. Did the committee not think that some such promise had been made, they could not have made the recommendation on behalf of petitioner. Mr LUDLAM took occasion to complain that the report had not been printed, so as to enable members to give the matters contained therein careful consideration. It was not right to make these things a mere matter of form. They should be discussed by the Council before being reccomtnended to his Honor. The PROVINCIAL SOLICITOR differed from the hon. member. As it was a money vote, it was well understood that it would be put on the Order Paper for discussion by the Council. Mr PEARCE said that in this case the Committee had been particularly guarded, as they were anxious that it should not be taken as a precedent. Their course was dictated by the fact that they did not wish to see a promise made by an officer of the Government repudiated. The report was ordered to be received tomorrow. UNAUTHORISED EXPENDITURE. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY (in the absence of the Provincial Treasurer) moved, that a sum of £95 be placed upon the estimates to cover certain unauthorised expenditure. Agreed to. THE HIGHWAYS BILL. Was made an order of the day for tomorrow. The Council then went into Committee on THE TOLL GATES BIEL. The first two clauses were read and passed. On the third clause, enabling the Superintendent to erect toll gates and fix tolls, Mr LUDLAM drew attention to the one great failure of the Government in past times with regard to the bridges over our rivers. Through a temporary impecuniositv they had always neglected to put in their stitch in time. It seemed that past experiences pointed to the necessity for setting by a certain fund from the proceeds in order to keep the bridges in repair. After some remarks from Mr Masters supporting the clause, The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY showed that a clause in the bill enabled the Superintendent to contract with any person to construct or repair a bridge, the contractor having a lien upon the tolls for payment. This led to a discussion on roads and bridges generally, and the proper system of maintaining them, whether by contract or otherwise. The clause passed. Clause 4 (limiting tolls) was passed. On clause 5 (exemption from tolls) Mr Hutchison called attention to the fact that elsewhere funeral corteges were exempt. Ministers, too, sometimes had occasion to travel a good deal. Mr MORGAN thought members of road boards should also be exempt while on business of the board. It was pointed out that in order to meet the case, wardens must either receive an allowance for their services, or that the board should vote a sum of money to cover expense in that way. The clause was passed as read. The remaining clauses of the bill were rapidly passed, without amendment. After some discussion on the schedules of the bill, they were amended and passed. THE LICENSING AMENDMENT BILL was read a second time, advanced through all its remaining stages, and passed. On the Council resuming they went into committee on THE WELLINGTON EDUCATION BIEL. Clauses one to fifteen inclusive were passed as read. Clause 16 (appointment of secretary and treasurer) was postponed. On clause 17, defining the general powers and duties of the board, Mr Hutchison moved as an amendment, that the board should havo the right of appointing the teachers, but not the power of removing them. The object of the hon member was that the appointment of a teacher should rest in the hands of a local committee and that, in default of misconduct or incompeteuce, the appointment should be permanent. Several hon members, however, deprecated the idea of the hon member reopening his original objection to the bill, and on which he had been defeated on the second reading. It was pointed out that he was endeavoring to introduce something utterly antagonistic to the very spirit of the bill, the chief object of the Government being to raise the status of the schoolmaster by preventing the constant interference of local committees in their supervising power over masters.

Mr MORGAN supported the views of Mr Hutchison. He wanted to see some connecting link between the central board and the parents.

Mr LTJDLAM also regretted the stand taken by the Government on the bill, as boards, like other people, were fallible, and there was no medium between the Government and the people, unless an individual ratepayer chose to act as such in the event of any complaint or dissatisfaction. The hon. member referred the committee to the satisfactory working of the Nelson system. Rather than see the bill destroyed altogether, he would support the bill, as he had done the previous sitting; but he would earnestly ask the Government to allow something to be introduced into the bill, which would succeed in interesting the people without necessarily destroying the fundamental principle of the bill. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY pointed out that these objections were raised on an erroneous conception; because, as it was, the board was practically a local committee. Were they to adopt the amendment of the hon. member for Wanganui, and allow a local committee

for every school, there would be no end to the complaints and suggestions, and all other kinds of iarring influences militating against the efficient working of the sTatem as a whole. The hon. member for the Hut* pointed to the satisfactory working of the Nelson system. He eould Z the hen. member that on drawing no the bill, the Government .had not closed their eyes to the different systems existing in the colony; and they had, furthermore, the very best authority for saying that the one blot upon the Nelson system was just that which the hon. member for the Hutt wished them to introduce. The hon. member said the Inspector did not say so in bis report; but there might be many reasons to prevent an Inspector from speaking the plain truth on such a matter. Hon. members ought to know the injurious result which had constant y flowed from the thousand and one little interferences to which teachers had been subjected at the hands of these local boards. If the Government conceded the request, they might also sweep away the central board altogether, for virtually the local hoard could neutralise any action taken by the central board, who were as much representatives of the people as local boar s could he. The board might appoint a teacher or remove one, but the committee could defy them, and refuse to accept the decis.on ot the board in either case, and say We will have this teacher, or we won’t have him, whatever you may say to the contrary. He deprecated the idea of battling over a principle on which they had already suffered a defeat, as was Bbown by the Council sanctioning the second reading of the bill. Mr LUDLAM again urged upon the Government to reconsider their decision in rejecting the assistance of local committees. Mr HUTCHISON denied that any squabbles which might have ensued ever took the form of lowering the status of the teachers. The issue was on a totally different point. The real fact of the matter was that they wished to deprive the people oftheir natural right, in favor of a board in Wellington, ot which the strings would be pulled by two or three gentlemen, and perhaps put Mr Bowden as inspector. It was utterly wrong to deprive the people of that in which they above all others were most deeply interested. For his part, he would not allow a man to teach his children of whom, he did not approve. After some remarks from Mr Dbansfield on the breach of etiquette committed by Mr Hutchison in referring by name to a person outside the Council, a division was called for, and the Council divided with the following result:—

For the amendment — 3 : Messrs Hutchison, Morgan and A. Milne. Against—l 3: Messrs Pharazyn, Andrews, Dransfield, Crawford, Bunny, Pearce, Anderson, Masters, Thynne, Fagan, Taylor, and Ludlam, Renall. On the original clause being put, Mr Andrews moved as a proviso to be added to the clause, —“ That, in places situated more than five miles from any school, the board, on the petition of parents and guardians of not less than twenty children of from five to fifteen years of age, shall have the power of appointing itinerant! teachers for the purpose of educating such children.” He had seen this system work very beneficially in Norway, a number of emigrants from which country we now had as settlers in this colony.

The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said he would accept the amendment of the hon member so far that he would postpone the clause for further consideration, in order to provide for the maintenance of travelling teachers. On clause 21, providing for the payment of the capitation fee, the date of payment was fixed for the first day of September. Mr BRANDON asked that the clause be postponed, in order to consider whether some allowance should not be made in districts where natural difficulties prevented the regular attendance of children. He knew of several roads in his district where the distance from the school, while being considerably less than the three miles specified in the bill, which entitled people to exemption, was yet absolutely impassable nine months out of the twelve. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY thought the amount of hardship likely to arise from such causes was so small, while the various advantages of the bill, both directly and indirectly, were so great that they felt they were entitled to accept the amendment of the hon member. Besides, as he was informed that the Porirua district was increasing so rapidly, the probability was that before any great difficulty of that kind arose, the establishment of a sohool would remove it. Mr LUDLAM thought the suggestion of the hon member for certain exemptions would, if grauted, open the door to such a number of applications of that nature from such a variety of natural difficulties that it would be impossible for any board to entertain them. The amendment of Mr Brandon was then put, and the Council divided, the result being— For the amendment, 3 ; against, 12. Messrs Brandon, Thynne, and Andrews were the only hon members voting for the amendment. Mr BRANDON then moved another amendment. He did not think he would stand quite alone on the division, as he believed there was at least one other member in the Council who had some idea of justice. The amendment to be inserted in the clause was s mentioned period received competent instruction at home.”

The division was—For, 4 j against, 11.

Progress was then reported, the amendment being made an order of the day for tomorrow. The Council adjourned till to-morrow, at 3 p.m.