PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

New Zealand Mail, Issue 21, 17 June 1871, Page 5

PROVINCIAL COUNCIL.

Tuesday, June 13. The Speaker took the chair at 3 o'clock. The following members were present:—The Provincial Secretary, the Provincial Treasurer, the Provincial Solicitor, Messrs Hunter, Pearce, Renall, Masters, Taylor, W. Milne, Pharazyn, Dransfield, Ludlam, Fagan, and Crawford, Anderson, Thynne. HUTT BRIDGE. The report of the Select Committee appointed to report upon the plans and papers relative to the Hutt bridge, laid upon the table last Bitting, was brought up and read. EEECTION OE TOLXGATES. The PEOVINCIAL SECRETARY moved —For leave to introduce a Bill to provide for the erection of toll gates on main roads in the Province of Wellington. Agreed to, the Bill read a first time, and the second reading made an order of the day for to-morrow. ADDRESS IN REPLY. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY moved the following address :—" The Council thanks your Honor for the speech delivered by you on the opening of the present sesJon, and for having placed before them a clear statement showing the financial position of the province. They concur with your Honor in the opinion that notwithstanding temporary embarrassment the future of the province is hopeful and that its ultimate prospects are good, and therefore the Council do assure your Honor that the various measures referred to in your speech, and which will be brought before them, with the object of giving legislative effect to the policy of the present Government, will receive from the Council the!" most earnest and careful consideration." Mr MILNE thought it would not be courtesy to pass the address in reply without comment. With regard to his Honor's speech, he must say that he was very much pleased with it, but he would guard himself from s ying that the remedy proposed by the G-o----vernment was the bes,t that could be chosen for relieving the province. He believed, however, that taxation was the only means calculated to extricate the province, and on that account he was pleased the Government had come down boldly and expressed their opinion on the matter. In the matter of tie hospital of Wellington and that of Wanganui, he could only see in them provincial institutions which were a source of great benefit to the province at large ; and it would not be honest on the people of the province to say to the people of Wellington that they should bear the buvden of all cases of distress and bodily infirmity by disease that were thrown upon them.

Mr LUDLAM thought the Council seemed inclined to adopt the advice given to them by the Provincial Secretary, that it would be merely a waste of time for them to raise a discussion on the address in reply, as it was drawn up in such a way as not to give rise to any discussion. Ho entirely agreed with the first paragraph of the reply, which said that the thanks of the Council were due to his Honor for his clear statement of the position of the province. The most important point, however, was the mode of carrying on the government by taxation. The speaker then went at length into the income of the province, and its relations with the General Government. He thought the time would very soon arrive when the General Government and provincial revenues would be separate—each having its own purse to dip into j tor it was too apparent that for a long time neither the provincial nor the General Government were living within their incomes. He could not see the force of throwing the whole cost of the hospital on the City of Wellington. He was in doubt about the proposed system of taxation foreshadowed. It might be that perhaps his mind did not run in the same groove; but anyhow he trusted the Council would not pass the matter through their hands without the most careful consideration. The next important point was the old, old thing—borrowing. Without objecting entirely to borrowing, he contended that a time must come when even borrowing must cease. When a fair prospect was visible that the capital borrowed would be repaid he had not any objection to it. That, however, had not been the case with New Zealand, which had been borrowing money for the last fifteen years; and, he would make bold to say, that nothing had so contributed to the ruin of the colony as that very facility for borrowing. He knew this was not the view of the Provincial Secretary (Mr Bunny : Hear, hear), who would go on borrowing for ever and everj but he confessed he could liken that philosophy only to the philosophy of the gambler, who trusted to chance, hoping that each turn of the dice would prove more fortunate than the last. He would have preferred some scheme whereby they could have got on without borrowing more money. On the subject of Education, he was free to confess he was thankful the Council had faced the difficulty so soon and well, and he would give it his most earnest support. Mr BRANDON did not at all agree with the system of education proposed, nor with the system of district boards. Both would require the most serious consideration. The PROVINCIAL SOLICITOR said the words in the address in reply were, that they hoped the measures they intended to bring forward would receive in the Council their most careful consideration.

Mr DRANSFIELD said while agreeing with the reply in the main, in the matter of the hospital he did not concur. Fully two-thirds of the patients came from the country, and it was a great mistake to say the institution had only benefited the town. As for the prison labor, the Government appeared to forget the large expense the ratepayers were put to for guarding those persons; and they must also recollect it was no very desirable thing to have a lot of desperadoes and malefactors working about the streets who had to be guarded by keepers with loaded gans. If this labor wa3

not given to the town freely it had better be taken away altogether ; and as fur its value, he could assure the Government the townspeople estimated it at nothing like what it had been set down. In all other respects, he was happy to say he ooncurred in his Honor's speech, a 3 he was one of those who had tho greatest faith ihthrjsubstantial sources of prosperity at the command of the province. He was therefore prepared to give, as far as possible, a fair support to the Government. Mr ANDERSON said he was inclined to support the address, as it was couched in such general terms as not to compromise members in any way. As to the statement itself, he was happy to say it was a bold one and honest—no shrinking back in disclosing the worst features —no foolish attempts to make things pleasant. His Honor, in showing the indebtedness, of the province, also showed, with logical clearness, that in order to carry on with success it became absolutely necessary to borrow. This might not accord with former expressions made by him in that Council; but he was bound to say that, after giving the subject the most serous consideration, he saw no other course so compatible with the posit;on. Having always opposed the policy of the General Government as wild and extravagant, he might have continued to do so now; but there was the fact staring them in the face that the General Government policy had been endorsed by Parliament, had fallen in with the views of the English capitih'sts—that, in fact, they had obtained the first instalment of the money, and in every probability would obtain more. It was therefore clear that when the General Government began to construct the lines of roads to which they were pledged, the province would be utterly crippled if they did not follow out the same policy by making district roads. Therefore he would support the address in reply. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said, in answer to the hon member for the Hutt, that it was perfectly true they had differed for a number of years on the question of borrowing j and he would do the hon member the justice to believe him to be so consistent that if borrowing, and borrowing alone, should give salvation to New Zealand he would oppose it. The hon member, however, seemed to forget that he had a Hutt Bridge, and that he could not get that important and most indis* pensab'e structure without the aid of borrow ing. He confessed that he had faith in tli6 resources of the province, and looked forward to the day when we should get out of our difficulties. What the Government proposed to obtain by taxation was in order to bridge their rivers, make their roads, and instead o proving a burden to the province, it would be found to have been a benefit. The address in reply was then put and agreed to on the voices. WALTER BULLER'S LAND SCRIP. The SPEAKER left the chair in order that the Council might consider in committee the following motion standing in Mr Pearce's name:—"That a respectful address be presented to His. Honor the Superintendent to place on the estimates the sum of £SOO, to be paid to Mr Walter Buller, in the form of land scrip available within the province, in recognition of services rendered by that gentleman in connection with the purchase from the natives of the Rangitikei-Manawatu block." He had tabled the motion from no personal feeling, but on the ground of public duty. If the Council had in times past appreciated Mr Buller's services, they should be equally willing to reward them. The hon. speaker then recapitulated the many valuable services performed by Mr Buller by assisting Dr Featherston in the Manawatu purchase since the year 1863 j and also, reading from the several messages of Dr Featherston while Superintendent, recommending Mr Buller's claims upon the Council—claims, the justice of which had been repeatedly admitted in the Council. He had also given similar valuable assistance to Mr Fox, to the At-torney-General, and to Mr Judge Manning j and to Mr Buller's assistance in the matter the main success of the case is attributable. It was true that since that settlement of the case, a section of the natives had given some trouble; but it should not be said that Mr Buller was any the less deserving because the Government had not chosen to enforce the mandates of their own Court. He could only say, in the words of Mr Fox, that Mr Buller had in the most able manner fulfilled the duties entrusted to him ; and therefore had a claim upon the Council.

The PROVINCIAL TREASURER would not oppose the motion ; but he would ask the hon. gentleman who brought down the motion to withdraw it, in order to give the members of the Government an opportunity of discussing the matter among themselves. No one was more fully aware of the valuable nature of the services of Mr Buller duriug the long and complicated negotiations of the Manawatu land purchase. Mr W. MILNE thought the negotiations had been the most unsatisfactory ever entered into by the province, and had been a fruitful source of trouble to them ever since. Mr Buller had been well enough paid already. When he drew his salary as Resident Magistrate, and his travelling expenses, he drew all he was entitled to—more, in fact, than he had any right to. Indeed, he believed that Mr Buller had mismanaged this negotiation right through, and, if he was not misinformed, had in fact wrongly advised the then Superintendent in every possible way in the course of tha negotiation. The PROVINCIAL SOLICITOR thought the suggestion of the Provincial Treasurer should have been acted upon, and that the matter should have been left to them without the Council first discussing it. He would suggest that the matter be considered tomorrow.

Mr LUDLAM entirely dissented from the hon. member. The motion was not a petition, and any member was justified in bringing

down in what form he chose, a motion of the I Mv WATT hoped the suggestion of the Provincial Treasurer would be acted upon, as he thought the motion should have emanated from the Government in the first instance. Ab far as the merits of the purchase went, he considered it the most complete and successful one that had ever been made in the province. But it appeared to him that the services of the Crown. Lands Commissioner should be recognised in an equally tangible manner with those of Mr Buller. . Mr PEARCE had no objection to withdraw his motion. - Mr PHARAZYN hoped, m reference to the remarks of Mr Watt, that the Government would not complicate the question by mixing up the name of another gentleman in the matter. Progress was then reported, and leave given to sit again to-morrow. DISTRICT EOAD BOARDS. Mr LUDLAM moved—" That a copy of all letters and documents received from the district road boards in the province in reply to a circular, addressed to the chairmen of road boards by the Provincial Secretary, dated 1871, be laid upon the table ot the

1 PROVINCIAL SECRETARY laid the papers and documents upon the table at once. . __ . Mr LUDLAM then withdrew motion No. 7 standing in his name.

PETITION COMMITTEE. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY moved the committee to whom all petitions are referred presented to the Council during the present session." Agreed to. LAND ON DEFERRED PAYMENTS. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY moved the following resolution—" That it is desirable that the Provincial Government should be empowered to set apart blocks of the waste lands of the province of Wellington, and to sell the same on deferred payment in sections of not more than 200 acres or less than 40 acres to aay one person, to be paid for by instalments extending over a period of five years, the purchaser being required to occupy and improve the land purchased. That it is also expedient that the Provincial Government should have fuller powers to set apart land for special settlement. That his Honor the Superintendent be requested to procure the passing of a bill in the next session of the General Assembly in the terms or to the effect as may be agreed on by the Council, with Buch modifications as the Superintendent may think fit to adopt in order to carry out both or either of the above resolutions." The hon. gentleman briefly referred to the various provisions of the bill as drafted. It might be found advisable to encourage special settlements of particular classes of immigrants from Europe. He believed that a period of two years would be sufficient to enable them to see how the scheme as propounded in the two bills would work.

Mr LUDLAM wanted to know how it was possible to obtain an expression of opinion on the Bill, in order to fill up the blanks while dealing with it as a resolution. He had no objection to the principle, though he had never been a believer in selling land on deferred payments; but he had no objection to see it tried. It seemed to him a bad policy to have the Government dealing directly with borrowers without a third and intermediate party, such as an association. The want of that often led to considerable political abuse, and sometimes led to such pressure being brought against a Government that they were unable to resist. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said if the principle of the bill were admitted, the Government had not the slightest objection to allowing the bill to be discussed in committee. He thought they might manage to do this by the suspension of the standing orders. After some discussion, the resolutions were passed, the discussion on the details being postponed till after the suspension- of the standing orders, the principle of the resolutions having been carried in last session of the Council after a long discussion. The Council then went into Committee on the provisions of the bill referred to in the resolutions.

On the clause providing that the price be not less than 20s, nor moie than 40s per acre, Mr W. MILNE suggested that 10s be subBtituted in lieu of 20s. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY considered that as the payment was spread over such a long period, and there was no interest charged, it had been deemed that 20s was the lowest price they could in fairness put down.

The PROVINCIAL TREASURER pointed out that one of the chief objects of the bill was to enable the work-people working at General Government and Provincial Government works to settle on the land on deferred payments. Had such a measure been in existence before this, they might have made settlers of a most valuable lot of men who had been working at the Manawatu. Some discussion ensued on several of the clauses with reference to the minimum price of the land, and the forfeit for want of punctuality in payment by the purchaser, but the clauses were passed without material alteration. On clause 15, providing for the transfer of the license held by the purchaser, Mr MILNE suggested that some fee be charged for the trouble of transferring the license.

It was agreed to fix the fee at £l. On clause 18, empowering the Superintendent to set aside a block not exceeediug 50,000 acres, The PROVINCIAL TREASURER asked that the clause be amended so as to enable the Superintendent to set aside a much larger block of land, in case he should see his way clear to make use of it for the purpose of special settle*

ment. What he meant by special settlement was the settlement of blocks of land by large bodies of settlers from the home country. There was no doubt that there existed at home a large and growing desire to emigrate ; and from what he had heard from Mr Fitzherbert, who had become acquainted with the feeling that prevailed at home to a great extent, they would be able to induce large bodies of yeomen, who, emigrating in a body, would settle themselves on the land in complete communities in all their parts. Before two years, he had no hesitation in saying, there would be 250 miles of rond, opening up some of the finest land in the whole colony. In fact, he knew one gentleman, a Canadian—and one known to many of them—who would be prepared to bring a large number from Canada. In fact, the people were only now waiting to hear his report upon the matter- Sir Charles Clifford also, was making himself active in this matter, and would be of great assistance in promoting this scheme at home. He therefore moved that the Superintendent be empowered to set apart a block of 100,000 acres. Mr LUDLAM thought this would give a new and dangerous feature to the clause. The province, he believed, had now become sufficiently advanced to make special settlement a success ; but hitherto special settlements had not been successes in other parts of the province. He did not wish to oppose the bill, but he thought it a little dangerous to lock up such a large block of land. The object might be attained egually well by retaining the plause in its original form ; but adding a proviso at the end, empowering the Superintendent, by consent of the Council, to set apart so much more land as might be deemed advisable.

Mr MASTERS supported the proposition of the Provincial Treasurer. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said the object of asking the Council to extend the provision to 100,0C0 acre 3 was done merely to prevent the Superintendent being compelled to apply to the Council in the event of these special settlements being successful. On the motion of Mr Ludlam, clause 19, providing for the period of time for which the block of land should be set aside, the period was fixed at three years, beyond which the land should not continue set aside.

In form 8., in the schedule providing for occupation, Mr LUDLAM proposed to test the meaning of the term " fairly in occupation," by moving that the portion of the land purchased that should be cropped, fenced, and in cultivation at the end of two years, should be fixed at one-fifth of the whole. Some discussion ensued on what was the exact definition of the word " cultivation," Mr PEARCE pointing out that by the Provincial Acts fencing was sufficient within the meaning of the term. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER objected to that. A good bushmaa could defeat the spirit of the act by knocking up in a very short time a fence; while, taking the other way, it was not right to compel a settler to go to the expense of erecting a four-rail fence, if it paid him better in the meantime to do something else. Mr W. MILNE thought if a small farmer managed to fence in about five acres in a year that should be sufficient, a 3 that was as much as he could conveniently get through without neglecting more imperative work. Mr MASTERS pointed out that their main object was to secure occupation at any rate. The Fencing Act and the neighbors of the occupier would see that the land was fenced in due course. The clause was amended on the motion ot the PROVINCIAL SECRETARY, to the effect that the purchaser should within two years fence, or clear, or lay down in grass or crop, at least one-tenth part of the land occupied. Agreed to. The remaining forms in the schedule were then read and the whole of the resolutions passed. AD INTERIM APPROPRIATION ACT. On the second reading of this bill, Mr LUDLAM wished to know if the act was a vote of credit ? PROVINCIAL SECRETARY: Precisely what the old vote of credit was. The bill was then advanced through all its stages and passed. NOTICE OF MOTION. Mr LUDLAM asked leave to move without notice that the abstract contained in the papers laid on the table to-day relative to the District Road Boards be printed. Agreed to. The Council then adjourned at 9.40 p.m. Wednesday, June 14. The Speaker took the chair at 3 o'clock. PETITIONS. Mr HUTCHINSON presented a petition from Robert Bright, of Wanganui, a discharged soldier, for the issue of a fresh land order, he having loSt or mislaid the original. Received, read, and ordered to be printed. Mr MORGAN also presented land peti« tions on '.behalf of Charles Jeffrey and Wm Crosier, both of Wanganui, discharged Boldiers. Received, read, and ordered to be printed. HTTTT BRIDGE. Mr LUDLAM moved—" That this Council doth concur with therecommendation contained in the report of the Hutt Bridge committee." The hon member shortly stated the object of the committee, and the reasons why they recommended site No. 3 or thereabouts, as pointed out by Mr Blackett. It would also be advisable whatever work the Government decided upon doing, that it should be done at once, as this was the most favorable season of the year for doing any work on the river, inasmuch as they had the advantage of being able to observe the action of the water constantly going on. Mr Ludlam drew the attention of the Council to the successful result of a device adopted by a settler in the Hutt who

managed to effectually prevent his property being carried away after having been in most imminent danger. Mr W. MILNE seconded the motion of the last speaker, and could bear out the full force of his remarks. He regretted that there was such a lack of practical knowledge in the province in the matter of bridging their rivers, among those high class professional men. Such was Mr Breed, who once built a bridge at the Hutt, across which no man, woman, or child could go. He thought Mr Holdsworth possessed considerable practical knowledge, the result of large experience in the way of bridges throughout the province—and his opinion was as likely to be of value as any one elses they might get. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said the Government entirely concurred in the recommendation of the Committee, and would be only too eager to go on with the necessary work as soon as possible. EECLAIMED I/AND. On this bill being brought on for a second reading, The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY explained the object of the bill. The first clause enabled the Government to sell the land at what price seemed to them best. The second enabled them to lease it. The third provided that half the proceeds of any sale should be applied in the manner required by the Consolidated Loan Application Act, 1869. These were the principal features of the bill. Mr LUDLAM wished to know whether the bill included the unreclaimed land, as well as the reclaimed part; and also as to what were the opinions of the Government as to the negotiations going on with the Municipal Corporation for the sale of the reclaimed land, the wharf, and the bonded store. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER said the Government had no intention of dealing with the unreclaimed land, though they were in negotiation for the reclaimed land. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said he might explain to the Council that the Corporation had offered the Government £50,000 for the land, the wharf, and the bonded store, and that the Government were disposed to accept that offer. But if the arrangements could be carried out the Council would have the whole thing laid before them in the regular way in the course of a few days. Read a second time. TOLL GATES. On the Provincial Seceetary moving the second reading of this bill, Mr HUTCHISON moved the postponement of the second reading. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY had no objection to do so if it was the wish of the Council. Mr LUDLAM agreed with the hon. member for Wanganui. This bill was a portion of the policy Of the Government, but one of the least important points. Let them have the head of the policy first, which was contained in the main bill embodying the Government policy. The second reading of the bill was then made an order of the day for Friday next. IN committee. The Council then went into committee on the Reclaimed Land Act, 1871. In reply to Mr Watt, The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said that in the event of the present negotiations not being carried out, the first clause enabled the Superintendent to dispose of it to the outside public. Mr LUDLAM thought there could be no doubt that the clause conferred an extraordinary power upon the Council—more than had been ever contemplated. He thought the Government should bring down to the Council the most explicit information regarding the property they were about to dispose of before asking to be entrusted with such unlimited power. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY said the Government never had any idea of dealing with the property without first laying the whole case before the Council. There was no doubt that the Government were inclined to accept the offer of the corporation j and when they had settled the first step, then they would come down to the Council with the whole pecuniary history of the property. A fter some remarks by Mr Masters,

Mr DRANSPIELD thought if the Government had the confidence of the Council it would be far better to allow them to deal with the matter up to a certain stage, when they could then come with it before the Council for final ratification. t Mr HUNTER did not think the Government were deserving of blame for not having given all the information to the Council before this, as it was a subject on which nearly every one of them was conversant. Clause 1 was then amended to read "to sell the whole or any part of the land reclaimed," &c, and agreed to. Mr WATT objected to the power given by clause 2, enabling the Government to demise or sell any part of the land. Let them, if possible, sell and rid themselves of such an unproductive piece of property; but not deal with it as proposed in that clause. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY differed from the hon. member's views. If the chief object of the land was to return a revenue, there could not be a more likely way (providing the present negotiations failed) of raising a revenue than by leasing the land in small blocks, and which there would be no difficulty in doing. Mr W. MILNE thought, in order to protect them sel res, the Council should stipulate that a certain amount be paid down prior to occupation. Otherwise they might just as well say to the Government —Take the whole affairs of the country, and do with them what you like and how you like. Mr DRANSFIELD informed the Council that the object of the Corporation was, if they obtained the land, to let it on long leases. Considerable discussion ensued on this

clause. Mr Milne and Mr Watt thought there should be some provision to prevent an adventurer or man of straw leasing the land on speculation, who, when it proved a failure, could say to the Council —Oh, I have no money to pay the rent. Mr Dbanseield deprecated such an idea.

Clause 2 was then passed as read. Clause 3 (providing that the half of the proceeds of every sale shall be applied according to the requirements of the Consolidated Loan Application Act, 1869) ; and clauses 4 and 5 were also passed without amendment. After an amendment in the preamble, proposed by Mr Peaece, the bill was read a second time, and the third reading made an order of the day for to-morrow. HONORARIUM TO MR WALTER BULLER. The Council then went into committee on the motion of Mr Peaece. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER said that while the Government acknowledged that Mr Buller had aprimafacie claim upon them for services rendered, they considered it would be a bad precedent to establish. If Mr Buller, as ass ; stant to Dr Featherston, was deserving of a substantial recognition, the principal in the transaction was clearly ten times more entitled to one. He thought that, considering the long time that had already elapsed in the dealing with this matter, it would be the wiser course to delay it a little longer. The Government had no wish to act in a hostile spirit j on the contrary, they were desirous to act as liberally as might be. In order to prevent the motion being finally disposed of at once, he would move that the chairman leave the chair. Mr PEARCE thought the course taken by the Government was not a bold one —was, in fact, timid. They first admitted the valuable nature of Mr Buller's services and the substantial claim he had upon the province, and yet they wished to indefinitely postpone the question, on the ground that the Government could not then afford it. Procrastination in this instance amounted almost to repudiation. The Council had over and over admitted the claim of Mr Buller. It was not a gratuity that was ashed, but the ftffilment of a promise made by the Superintendent and sanctioned bv the Council.

The PROVINCIAL SOLICITOR thought that the Superintendent, from the nature of his appointment under the General Government as Land Purchase Commissioner, could not bind the Council to carry out any promises he might choose to make. Mr LUDLAM thought the Manawatu question was in a manner like the Waitara question, and the very name ought to be abolished by law. His own opinion of the successful nature of the purchase was that it was the very reverse. In fact he had very good ground for saying that the appointment of Mr Buller in that transaction was most unfortunate for the province ; and when a Government officer was already paid a salary he had no right to expect an honorarium for merely discharging his duty well. He would always oppose such a practice.

Mr PHARAZYN, while thinking with the last speaker that the Manawatu purchase was a great mistake, still could not hold with him that the duly performed by Mr Buller was not deserving of the slight honorarium asked for. Whatever might be the opinion as to the value of Mr Buller's services in the transaction, no one could say he had not done his best to acquire the land for the province. He regretted the Government should mix up the two ideas of the honorarium to Mr Buller and the recognition of the services of Dr Featherston, Native Land Purchase Commissioner, who had notoriously mismanaged the whole affair. To pay Dr Featherston seemed to him an utterly monstrous proceeding; but he would most cordially support the motion of Mr Pearce. The PROVINCIAL SOLICITOR could not hear such reflections upon Dr Featherston in the matter. It was well known that Dr Featherston had trusted everything to his interpreter, and in nearly every instance followed his advice. From Mr Buller Dr Featherston had to obtain all the information concerning the land and the' native sellera, and was therefore entirely dependent .upon him, as he was the person employed to get that information.

Mr W. MILNE protested against the Council being bound by this promise of Dr Featherston. The fact of it was the matter had been brought before the Council repeatedly, and was as constantly put off by saying —" Oh, let us wait till the whole thing is finally settled." He knew something about this purchase, and he regretted it had ever been made, for whatever way it was looked at, it must be pronounced the greatest blunder ever made in the world. He had heard a great deal about interested people patting the natives up to their obstructive acts; but he did not believe a word of it. These people referred to were as honest as Mr Buller —probably a great deal more honest. As for the idea of mixing up the name of a high-minded church dignitary as an Interested intriguer, was carrying the dishonesty of the thing as far as it was possible. Mr Buller had been sufficiently well paid already, and had no more right to make this claim than any other servant of the Government who was asked to do something for the province outside his ordinary duties, especially when a liberal allowance had been made ia other ways. The friends of Mr Buller showed a wise discretion in not saying much about his claims; let them talk about his stuffed birds, but not about his claims on the province. Mr MASTERS supported the motion. There could be no doubt that the course and actions of Dr Featherston and Mr Buller had been proved over and over again to have been ajustahd proper course, and he felt certain that but for that influence behind the natives, which had been so persistently used to thwart the efforts of Dr Featherston, there neTer

would have been a word of trouble about the purchase. Mr WATT objected to Mr Ludlam's remarks. He knew as much about this purchase as anyone, and he knew that no interpreter, no matter what his knowledge or in* fluence,could have guided Dr Featherston clear of the scheming, intriguing—he might call it high treason —that was exerted in opposition by parties out of sight. He utterly scouted the idea of Mr M'Lean's mode of settling the dispute ; Dr Featherston, anybody, indeed himself, might have settled it in a like manner and at a less sacrifice of land. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY had no wish to ignore Mr Buller's claim upon the Council, if it was bound in any way by the action of its predecessors. If he was not misinformed, Mr Buller had not only received his ordinary salary during the time he was engaged with Dr Featherston over this transaction but had been granted an extra allowance. Besides Mr Buller was going home on a visit of eighteen months on the most advantageous terms to himself. His passage there and back was to be paid at the expense of the conntry, while he would receive full pay during the whole of the arrangement; another gentleman had been appointed to discharge his duties in the meantime, also at the expense of the country.

MrPHARAZYN: He is going home to publish a book.

Mr BUNNY said that reminded him that the publishing of that book was also a very advantageous arrangement to Mr Buller. Indeed it seemed to him that Mr Buller —a young man who, as they might say, was only a boy the other day—was receiving considerations that would not be granted to men 30 years in the service; therefore, when they talked of his claims upon the province thA least they might do was to allow time to enable these claims to be fully looked into, as was asked for by the Provincial Treasurer. By the time the Council again met, they would perhaps be in a better position to judge of how far they were justified in rewarding the servant, while letting go unrecognised the head—the brain and mind—who had used his most strenuous efforts for the acquisition of land by the province.

Mr HUTCHISON would rather see the Government opposing this motion direct than relegating it in that way. It might be that Mr Buller was going home under most advantageous terms, and to publish a book—all the more credit to him—but that was altogether beside the question. Mr Buller had performed the'services he had been deputed to, and did them honorably and well; and if it was good at any time to reward with an honorarium a good servant —and he was one of those who held it was—then Mr Buller was well entitled to this honorarium. If he was not mistaken, the Government had virtually admitted the justice of the claim long ago. Mr DRANSFIELD took a similar view. The PROVINCIAL SOLICITOR reminded bon. members that the matter never had been brought before the Council as a Government measure. They had simply left it to the Council, as it was mentioned in his Honor's speech, and if it fell through or was allowed to stand over, it was because the Council chose to take no action. Mr HUNTER corroborated the remarks of the previous speaker in some respects, and held the same opinion. Mr MILNE also spoke in favor of the»-mo-tion of the Provincial Treasurer, The amendment of the Provincial Treasurer, that the Chairman do leave the Chair was put, end the Council divided with the following result:— For—9 : Messrs Bunny, Halcombe, Borlase, Huriter, Taylor W. W., Taylor, Ludluin, Morgan, Milne. Against—B: Messrs Hutchison, Anderson, Pearce, Pharazyn, Master's, Dransfield' Watt, Crawford. The Council then adjourned till three o'clock next day. Thursday, June 15. The Speaker took the chair at 3 p.m. PETITIONS. Several petitions were read, aud ordered to be printed. NOTICES 03? MOTION. Soveral notices of motion were made. I/AND CERTIFICATE. Mr HUTCHISON asked the Provincial Secretary—Why the usual remission certificate for land has been stayed in the case of Dr Curl, of Rangitikei, after having been issued. The PROVINCIAL TREASURER produced a memorandum stating the reasons why the certificate had been stayed. It appeared that the scrip had been issued in error, as Dr Curl had held no commission since 1866. LICENSING AMENDMENT ACT. Mr WATT moved —For leave to bring in a bill to amend the Ist clause of the Licensing Amendment Act of session 13, No. 10. It was very desirable that if any hon. members knew of any other amendments necessary it would be advisable to bring them forward as soon as possible, as the measure was a most useful one. The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY fully recognised the necessity for the amendment proposed by the hon. member. Leave given, the bill road a first time, ordered to be printed, and the second reading made an order of the day for Tuesday next. HIGHWAYS ACT. In moving the second reading, The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY pointed, out shortly the object and scope of the bill. He agreed wjth Mr Ludlam that it was the keystone of the policy of the Government; »nd he was also free to admit that it was a measure going altogether in a different direction to any legislation they had previously experienced, jt would accomplish something te waa uPW gantom.pl&ted. in, fchj prgviop 'if ?|#fij Iritis*) ho wljM e*il f< pOP'

sive." It_was something new to have a law compelling people to tax themselves, in order to make roads. The policy of the Groverament was to provide a machinery by which every bit of property in the province might be made to contribute something—so that none might escape—to aid in the development of the province as a described as a policy of taxation for the general advancement of the province. They did not mean to tax any particular class, but every class, not alone the poor but' the rich, and in as fair a proportion as they could arrive at, so that the wealthy man who had many acres should contribute in proportion to his wealth. They proposed to divide the province into eight large districts (maps laid upon the table), each of which would be divided into wards something in the same way as the corporation divided the city, each of which would return so many wardens, by whom a board of wardens would be constituted, whose duty it would be to make roads or close them, or carry on other public works necessary. The main point of difference between the Government and some hon. members would no doubt be the exact method of raising the money to carry out these roads—a general work for improving every property in the province. This would of course be the 37th clause, which provided for levying an annual rate of one penny in the pound on the value of all rateable property in the district. They therefore considered, after the most careful deliberation, that the best and only way to do this was to tax the whole real estate of the province, and that the bill was in the right direction, and entirely in the same spirit as the colonising policy accepted by the whole colony. The hon. speaker then proceeded to go into the details of the provisions of the bill, reading and commenting upon all the principal clauses seriatim. Having gone through the bill as fully as the Council could desire, he thought that though they could nol expect a unanimous expression of opinion, the majority would feel bound to admit this bill was in the right direction, and the only course open to them by which they could extend the benefit of the colonising schemes now in progress to the furthest outskirts of the province. Every shilling raised under this act would go towards making the property of those who contributed to this scheme still more valuable —not one shilling of it would go towards paying salaries. It was conceived on the same principle, and in the same spirit, as the Colonial policy—it was the spirit of helping themselves —the putting of their hands into their own pockets, not of going as beggars to another place for assistance. Mr LUDLAM should have been glad to have heard the opinions of hon. members who were living in those districts likely to be most affected by this bill, as he came from a district which might well be called a settled district. Before going into the question, however, he would thank the Executive for theadmirable clearness with which the bill was drawn up. Members must admit that in this respect the Council had at all events gained something by a change of Government. Still, that was no reason why they should be prepared to abandon their own opinions, and what they deemed to be the interest of their constituents, because any particular body of men occupied the Government benches. But, in making these remarks, the Government must nof think that he —or indeed he might say every other member of the Council —felt any hostility to the Government. On the contrary, they were all anxious to afford the Government . all the assistance in their power. At the same time they must give such an important measure their most «erious consideration. He might ask them what was the most vital principle of self-government, or was there any clear idea of it ? No later than last session they were told by their late Superintendent that under the system which was then extolled so many hundreds of miles of road had been made ; while now they were asked to condemn that system in favor of another which called for a much increased taxation. The hon. member then went into the explanation of the causes which led to the failure of the system in present existence. He would like to know what was the real actuating motive at the bottom of these new propositions. Was it not done with the object of enabling them to go to the General Government and say that they had a great power of raising a revenue, and, therefore, were inaposition to borrow in an increased degree from them under their .public works policy. The hon. member pointed out the injurious action taken by the Legislative Council in the matter of acreage rates ; though they never took a wiser part than in sanctioning the act providing for the distribution of £SOOO amongst the different road boards of the province. He denied that the policy of the Government—a taxation policy he called it, for he could not call it anything else—was a colonial policy. It was not so in Otago ; there the acreage rate was still in favor. It was all very well to talk of future prosperity, but the Government would do well before imposing these measures to weigh them carefully and see if they were not acting unfairly. Me would admit that the policy if carried out would have one beneficial effect—it would have the effect of rousing up the people, and destroying that apathy which had so long kept them in stagnation. The bill proposed to tax the people in two ways. They appointed a Central Board, which would have nothing to do with the main roads, but would tax the people for the maintenance of the district roads, while the Government, which took charge of the main roads, would dip into the people's pockets for the support of these roads. The present system, was much fairer in principle, and more economical to the settlers. He could see a good opening for a ?mart chairman and one or two boards qf wardens rtjling thp thin,g ~i«. ft ft gPQc] @p&n»ng fa' JGlibosyi They pp pjg !iohi!)'p9t@}i ef |tys mmp

While the central board would be spending the money as a majority of them decided, the poor unfortunate small boards would be starved. They would find that this bill would not prove a palatable one to a great many in the province. He objected to this kind of taxation in a new country—placing the power of taxing every single property in the districts in the hands of a few men who possessed the most imperfect information as to its worth. This might do in the old country where the value of every bit of property was known to a penny, where even the very stones on the turnpike were almost known; but in a country like this, he would ask hon members to recall their own experiences and say was it possible to get a body of men who were able to assess the property. Let them ask fifty men as to the value of a particular property, and one would say £5, another £lO, another £2O, and so on. Besides, he was surprised at the system emauating from the hon the Provincial Secretary, who if his eers did not deceive him, had, in the General Assembly, in his most vigorous terms, advocated an acreage rate. (The Provincial Secretary explained that, on the contrary, he had ever bepn in favor—had, in fact,, been the first to move in the matter—of an annual value rate in preference to an acreage rate.) Mr Ludlam said that by this bill they were punishing the improvers of property for the benefit of the more idle. Was it fair to come now and ask men who had been toiling for twenty and thirty years to come now—after having already paid very heavily—and tax themselves to open up the country ? In an evil hour, and from political pressure from country members, the Government had introduced 'that pernicious system of giving grants-in-aid to road boards —a measure which had done more to destroy the self-reliance of road boards, and the resources of the province than anything else they had ever done. Before going to inflict this large amount of taxation —for this policy was meant as a permanent one—they should examine, with the utmost acuteness in order to see if this taxation was fair; because he would make the bjld statement, and would prove it if necessary, that the people of New Zealand were never so poor in every respect, and simply for the want of roads. (Government Benches : Hear, hear.) Well, it was absolutely staggering to him to see public men get up one day and deliver themselves of principles that they would, at the expiration of three months, condemn by proposing something directly opposite to everything they had advocated during the whole of their public existence. In any case, there was one thing respecting the retaining of office of Warden. By having a system of rotation of Wardens, so that they would not all go out at once, they would have the advantage of always retaining some men who were conversant with the details of the business. With regard to these district roads having any bearing or being connected in any way with the railway policy of the General Government, he did not see either had one iota to do with the other. The railway policy was a policy that was every day becoming more and more—he was glad to see it —recognised . as something purely and entirely colonial. As for the bon. gentleman saying we would be carrying out a policy the same as the other provinces, he thought differently. The other provinces were clearly of a different opinion, and were not carrying out the principle of the Government of levying a valuatingrate upon property. After commenting upon some minor details, the hon. member said he felt it to be his duty to vote against the second reading of the bill. Mr BRANDON moved the adjournment of the debate till the following day. - The PROVINCIAL SECRETARY could not consent to such an adjournment, as there was a great deal of business to be gone through which could not-be done until this measure was gone through. The motion lapsed for want of a eo;;onder. Mr MORGAN supported the bill brought down by the Government. He found that the majority of the road boards in the province were impotent for good i nearly all of them were shut up from one cause or another. ' He approved entirely of the principle of rating according to annual? value, as being an advantage than otherwise to the iudustrious settler. Practically, the tax had no other objects than as a means of assisting the energetic settler and improving the property of the province at large. The hon. member then quoted from an act in force in the Nelson province, which gave power to the board to assess the lands of settlers. Still, under this system, he thought there should be some means of saving expenses by which people might be enabled to fix the assessment themselves. On the whole, however, he was in favor of the bill. The measure formed m excellent groundwork on which to erect a perfect system of local self-Government, an end which was inevitable, and must come soon or later. Mr THYNNE opposed the bill, not from any hostility to the Government, but from a deepseated conviction that it was wrong in principle. He was confirmed in this view from the experience he had gained in the Manawatu district. From the way in which a great deal of property was held and was worked —some improved and more unimproved—it would be a means of taxing the poor man, "who had his living to make, to the advantage of the rich man. In another respect, they would assess a man's building in proportion to the cost it had entailed to build it. A man in Foxton, who would value his house there more than a man with one by the road in Palmerston, would reap an advantage greater than the latter. He was certainly indebted to tbe v Government for taking the steps they 1 had done to enable tins bill to be ventilated before it came on for discussion in the Council. He was sorry, however, he could not give the support to the Government he would wish ; but he fl°uld not euppor-t q, measure thai fee the mm% up faggo m$ $ &W ft w Ijpfojefclji nm

from. Besides, it would fall unjustly and unequally on his district, inasmuch as they had many miles of road in various parts threefourths made ; and according to this bill they would practically have to pay over again for making and completing these roads, when they could do it under the present system at a small acreage rate. He was quite certain that a great deal of land in the Manawatu now not taken up would be in five years time, with this prospect of taxation before them, of equal and in some cases of more value than property which had been undergoing constant improvement for many years. He could not help seeing that the provisions of the act must fall unequally and unjustly upon very many of the settlers. For these reasons he felt bound to oppose the bill, though he would admit that in some degree the exigencies of the country required a measure (but more qualified) of this kind to enable the province to progress. Mr ANDERSON supported the bill, as he could not help knowing that most of the road boards in the province were utterly impotent for any good—nay, they were often positively injurious. He had seen that many of these little boards would not unite for harmonious action with neighboring road boards ; in fact, there was very often a narrow and illiberal spirit displayed, and members of these boards seemed to aim at improving their own private property rather than the benefit of the district —in short, they generally wanted a road to their own door. These boards, therefore, ought to be swept away, with all their narrowmindedness, petty jealousies, and squabbles, and abolished altogether, as they were utterly and irretrievably bad. The hon. member then described a piece of road in the vicinity of Wang.irei, under the control of one of these boards, which was beyond the power of man or beast to travel. The very comprehensive and spirited nature of this bill was calculated to bring forward a class of men to manage superior to those small-minded and prejudiced men who took charge of roads under the present system ; and when they succeeded in getting these men of higher intelligence to take charge of these things, they would find that the work would be done better, and with a greater view to the benefit of the districts at large, regardless of the plot of this man or that man. Besides, there were large slices of land in the Rangitikei and Manawatu districts which were not assessed at all. This alone was a forcible objection to the acreage system. He had another reason to urge to show how the acreage system was absolutely unfair. There was an enormous quantity of land in the Wainui omata practically valueless—bought, in fact, for 5s per acre, and a bad investment at that—there was land in the Hutt valued at £SO per acre, [Mr Ludlam: Will you give £4O for it, for you can have it ?] and yet, notwithstanding the startling nature of the anomaly, both were rated alike. It might be urged that there was a right of appeal; but in nine cases out ten the appeal was always defeated. Now he contended that the very fact that the necessity for appeal was recognised was indubitable proof that the system was radically wrong—wrong in principle and in practice. It was not right to say that it was a hardship on the poor man who worked hard to improve his land. If a man had an income of £IOO, and paid a tax upon it, that was no reason why the man with an income of £4OO should not pay in proportion to his income. On broader grounds, he thought the time had come» when the province, for very i-If-preservation, should push its roads to its uttermost verges and extend its power in every way. Not to do this would be fatal to Wei* lington ; because Auckland was pushing her way, increasing her power, by annexation and otherwise in this direction. If Wellington did not coutermine, as it were, in self-defence, she would be overridden by the superior province. The time was rapidly coming when the provincial system would expire from sheer inantion ; and no better opportunity could be given for preparing the people for local self-govern-ment than was afforded by this bill. He would vote for the second reading. Mr BRANDON opposed the second reading of the bill, which he looked upon as antagonistic to provincialism. The districts were altogether too large for the natural features of the country, and for that reason would be found unworkable. Let them take Castle Point as an instance. How could wardens from there attend the meetings of the board when they had to ride 40 or 60 miles ? If their piesence was required, as it would be very frequently, how could they attend unless they were paid for attendance. With regard to the rating, he thought it ought to be left entirely in the hands of the ratepayers. It should be for them to say whether they would be rated by assessment or otherwise. That at least should be conceded to them. He could point to districts—many of them—where the people had spent more than the actual value of the land itself in order to make it accessible; and now to make these people pay for roads to be made to Waikanae or elsewhere was monstrous —it would place people who would now take up land without haying a shilling spent on it, in a better position than those who spent years of toil and heaps of money on the roads through their property. Then again, in the election of wardens, was it fair that a person who owned the tithe of property of another, should have just as much power in returning wardens to assess the property of the district. Had the bill provided for the keeping of main roads, it would have been a different thing. He would much rather see the local boards manage it themselves. Should any dissatisfaction ensue from their acts, they might then a head board who could be appealed to. Look at the inconvenience that would be caused to aettlers not contiguous to where the board sat, incoming in time after time to see what was being done } how they were assessed 5 besideg vaviqqs Pthe?s thy H'iwty impwtiepte m§ uuwarift

Then there was no provision for Maori land. (Government Benches: How is it taxed now ?) It was not taxed ; nor could it be taxed at all under this bill. The result of this would be that the Government would reap the benefit in the end in the case of absentees. _ They could not claim it as a personal debt until they obtained judgment. (Voices : No, no ; read the act.) He had read it, and he would ask, was ho wrong in saying what he had? A man, too, was not only taxed for the benefit of the district, but it was possible to double the rate for the purpose of—yes, nothing more ncr less than jobbing, without the people most interested having an opportunity of saying a word in the matter. The Government said they were only bound by the principle of the bill; but members must remember that if they allowed the second reading, they accepted ail the principles of the bill, and nothing but the bill. They would find they would be far better off with the system of smaller boards ; and they would have far less jobbery—if jobbery there was at all in them —than by the proposed sysrem. The hon. member concluded his remarks by moving that the bill be read that day six months. Mr W. MILNE seconded. Mr BOELASE said he had been anxious to hear the opinion of country member upon the question. Having done so, he felt free to Bpeak in general terms upon the bill. It might bo novel here, but there was nothing new in it. The principle was" in operation in other countries. The system they were seeking to set aside was a narrow-minded and pettyfogging system, whose vitality and power entirely depended upon Government assistance ; and as soon as that fell off, the system became inoperative and practically defunct. After all it was only tho Government money which had been tho means of making the roads which had been made. (No, no.) (Yes, yes.) The sole direction of this legislation was- to provide something for the day when provincialism would be put on one side. As things were, they were not in a position to perform this duty by the province by making roads, bridges, and opening up the country; and unless they did something of this kind they might sit down and let things take their course. It might be well to'do this for the sheepfarmers who had made himself comfortable —to sit down, pipe in mouth, looking at his sheep, and say " I don't care twopence." They were here to colonise the province, to do their duty as settlers, to open up the country so as induce people to come and settle it; and to do this they must tax —not to do so, was to sit down savagelike and apathetic, and grin and bear it, not going ahead, but actually going back, closing up the country altogether. Under the small board sjstem, a little local jealousy would serve to neutralise the efforts of all. If Makara was more powerful than Karori, it could prevent the other from carrying out some necessary work to both, but perhaps a shade more advantageous to the other. Besides, these small boards were not able of themselves to carry out a work" or road of any considerable importance. How would towns work and improve under such a system ? If one street or ward received apparently no direct benefit from some large piece of work required, their arguments would not be received, and they would be taxed all the same. The principle was just, was long practiced as a principle of taxation —a principle recognised universally. For his own part, if he had to pay only £lO. taxation, he should be only too happy had he tho good fortune to be taxed ten times as much, provided he knew he was only being taxed in a fair proportion. He trusted that members would see that the Government, in bringing forward this measure, only aimed at lifting the province out of the rut in which she had so long stuck; and, in order to do this, they must all put their shoulders to the wheel. •

Mr MASTERS would not say much, but lie would not give a silent vote; the more bo, as lie believed he would, in voting for the Government on this measure', be voting in opposition to a great many of the settlers in his district ; but he felt bound to vote for the bill, because it meant progress to the province and prosperity to all. He did not mean to say that the road board in his district had not done its duty and a great deal of good j but lie felt satisfied that the bill would enable roads to be made and country opened up now quite beyond the power of any of the present road boards. If he apprehended the real scope and intention of the bill, it was to make such roads through the province as would open up portions of the country, which would otherwise remain locked up for an indefinite period. Mr W. MILJNE could not support the Government on this bill. In principle, he admitted that assessment was the fairest rate in an older settled country; but he contended we had not yet arrived at that period. At the time the acreage rate was imposed, he knew that they must look forward to one day paying an assessed rate ; but at the time that acreage rate was imposed, it would have been as unjust and impolitic to impose an assessed rate as it was now. As for the remarks of hon. members,, casting imputations on the gentlemen who managed these so-called petty road boards, he protested against such talk altogether. In a little board, to which he did not belong, but with whose working and personnel he was intimate, he knew they were anything but half-educated, narrow-minded men. One at least of the gentlemen on it had been repeatedly asked to stand for the General Assembly, but he declined the honor. ' It was not right to import remarks of that kind into the discussion; rather let them address themselves to the merits or demerits of the bhTitself. To the many points of the bill to which he objected he must except one—that was, it embraced the whole'province'; and he was free to admit that the time had arrived when it was clearly necessary, in order that they should go on, that they must make Bp their mi»da to suffer taxation of some kind.

He had seen an argument in a public print of the town in favor of a valuation rate ; but the writer seemed to forget that when the land was sold, the purchaser understood that roads were to be made by a uniform acreage rate, and this mode of assessing was therefore altogether new and unexpected. On the whole, although he could not support the bill, he felt that the Government had taken a very proper course, and therefore deserved every consideration.

Mr PEAECE said the bill before the house was one of those measures in which it was a difficult matter to distinguish principles from details. It was such a hard matter of fact measure that it was impossible for a member to speak freely and clearly on the bill except in committee. Of the rating clause he was not afraid, though he failed to see where the excessive amount was to come /Vom at the rate of a penny an acre. Hon. members could calculate it from the figures given in his Honor's speech. By this bill a sum of only about £IB,C )0 was provided for; yet if they referred to tho revenue expended in 1867 they would find it had reached a sum of £40,000. On the principle of assessment on valuation, he entirely agreed with the bill. He eondemned utterly that most iniquitous principle of permissive rating. It was only a short time ago since the Wairarapa organised road boards, and if they had had some such provisions as were contained in this bill in operation, it would have been a great good to the district to-day. There were many points i in the bill involved in some obscurity, or rather on which sufficient information had not been afforded, and on which he would like to know a little more; but he would not oppose the second reading of tho bill. As for the hardship and tyranny likely to be caused by the large districts, he considered that there was far more tyranny and injustice likely to arise from the small boards. Ho felt sure that the rate of one penny, instead of being much, would be, on the contrary, altogether inadequate. The PROVINCIAL TREASURES was glad to hear the remarks and suggestions of the hon member who had just sat down ; and also had felt great pleasure in listening to the speech of the hon member for the Hutt (Mr W. Milne). He deprecated the idea of casting any slur on the gentleman who composed those small road boards they wished to supersede. All honor to them for the good they had done, and done under great difficulties. But he contended they had accomplished the objects for which they were formed ; and were no longer adequate to meet the demands required of them now. As for the board of Rangitikei, he considered they had been eminently successful, and done more work continuously than most of the road boards ; but a great injustice was the result; for the more these boards did, the more fell upon them to do. Now this bill would remove this injustice. It would relieve them of all this trouble and expense, and place the burden more equally, and confer a great benefit —against their will —upon men who were opposed to taxation in every form. The effect of making roads in the Rangitikei district Lad been to raise the price of land from 10» to £2 and. £3 per acre; and that would be the result throughout the province by this bill coming into operation Another thing. There was no doubt that l.the Government had brought in this measure ' looking forward to the day when Provincialism would be passed away—not from its weakness, but through a great union, and strength, and sympathy between the compouent parts of the colony—when provincial barriers would fall down, and a community of interest and general fusion of institutions would supervene in the natural order of things. But until they made those roads—and they could not be made without funds—the country could not be opened up, the former would be shut out from markets, end all intercommunication would be inefficient. Besides, looking forward to the colonial policy of railways now in progress, of what use, comparatively speaking, would they be to the out-districts of the province, if they did not provide these feeders ? Without these feeders they could have no claim to share in the benefits of these railways; with these feeders, their claims would be irresistible. As to the principle of the bill, he might say that in nearly every respect the bill was based on the principle of Municipal Corporations Act. Looking at the way in which the boards would be composed, he would point out how it was the more likely to enable the ratepayers to have a fairer modicum of justice meted ont to them than by the present system. By this bill, which drew its representatives from all parts of the district, the ratepayers were more likely to get liberal and enlightened opinion, than with a board which, under the present system, might be composed of a few neighbors, taken from within a few miles of each other. Besides, it provided greater facilities for carrying on work. One chief point of resistance to the bill appeared to be the assessment rate. But lie would ask honorable members if the acreage rate had not been productive of the greatestinjustice. (Cries of no, no ; yes, yes.) The real opposition, seemed to be to absentees. Well, he didn't like absentees; in fact in a country like this, he hated absentees. But if they were so hostile to absentees, let them not make this a shelter by which to defeat the bill—by r , a side wind as it were. Rather let them face that objection fairly and impose a special rate on absentees. With regard to the objectionjbo a tax,upon improvements, what did it amount to ? What- did a man improve for ? Was it not to make money ? (Mr Ludlam ; no, np.j for his comfort.) He said it was only another name. If he wanted a fine house, garden, a good road on which to drive about in his carriage to see'his friends, it was only placing that within his possession which was equivalent to money, and it ought to be paid for.' There had been a disposition to find fault with the "Government for not having brought down an estimate of the,

valuation they expected ; but it must be recollected that the Government had taken up the affairs of a province in an embarrassed position, and it was utterly impossible for the Government to have done that as it should have been done in the time, and with the other work they had to- do, and, therefore, they bad never attempted it. But taking the rough estimate of £IB,OOO a yea** as something to spend on their roads, which one hon. member considered too small, he could say he would only be too happy to see that amount available to expend on the roads of the province, and it would be found sufficient to send the roads on at a very respectable pace; and if the province had had that annual amount being spent on their roads for the last few years, he ventured to say that the population would, by this time, have been doubled. Mr Brandon wanted to know why there was not a plurality of votes in proportion to the property owned. In answer to this, he could only say that the principle was that working in the Corporations Act, and no one heard any complaints of the injustice of that. As for the other objectionsraised by the hon. member—the voting power of unmarried women, and the difficulty of living at a distance from-the meeting place of the board, they were as easily answered. The only solid objection he could see himself, was in their treatment of the absentees; and there was no way of getting over it but by facing the difficulty, and providing for it specially. As for the difficulty apprehended from the possibility of the Government wanting to make a particular road as a main road. If the Government were anxious and willing to make a road, depend upon it any road board would allow them to make it. He trusted hon. members would waive all minor objections, and give the Government a hearty support in carrying the measure. Mr WATT regretted that, notwithstanding the many arguments ha had heard in favor of the bill, that he could not support the Government upon it. No such measure was wanted. He did not object to the Government doing work for the settlers, but it was possible the Government might do more than they were wanted to do. Who wanted the roads? not those who had already made their roads ; and yet they want3d to tax those very people for the benefit of those who had no roads. This was nothing but placing a tax upon industry, and could only have the effect of injuring a great many portions of the province improved by industrious and energeticsettlers. He was certain that this bill, if passed, would be protested against by the settlers of his district. Looking carefully at the bill, it seemed to him that it must conceal something more than was visible upon the surface, that made the Government attach so much importance to it; if this view was not correct, he was at a loss to see what the bill contained that might not he put on one" side without injury to anyone. He thought the proposition made by Mr Brandon was a good one, and might be advantageously embodied in the bill—that was, in allowing the power of assessment to remain in the hands of tho ratepayers. So far as he could judge, the act would not only be unsatisfactory in its worliing, but exceedingly expensive. Another pi-ovision wanting in the bill, and which no one had touched upon, was in a case where a road went through a native reserve. [Provincial Treasurer : The occupier will pay]. However, in opposing this measure, he should be sorry to see the Government turned out of their seats, as ho saw no one better able to fill their places. -He would vote against the bill. Mr HUTCHISPN said before he was compelled to vote either against the second reading or only against the bill, he wouhl like the Government to give some more information. The bill had a peculiar character—"lt was too good for a blessing; too bad for a curse." But such as it was, the Government seemed to be united in their opinion of it. Instead of finding fault with the bill, as many hon. members did, because the proposed districts were too large, he thought, on the contrary, they were too small. The real difficulty was in the rating clause not because he considered the valuation principle unfair, but because it was so in the meantime. They were rating simply for roads at present; not for the whole institutions of the country. The principle might be right—no doubt would in eight or ten years—butwas not so now. It was unjust treatment to rate a man who had spent his money on a fine and handsome building, an acj that was refined and liberal, and was practically educating the rising generation out of the four-roomed packing style of building they were too familiar with. Why, this was the very principle that led the people of the East to assume an appearance of real poverty so that they might not be robbed by the Cadi or Bashaw. One point about the acreage system that was unaswerable was that certain holdings escaped taxation altogether. He admitted that should not be so, and should be remedied. He fully recognised that large districts would bo rather an advantage than otherwise, as he knew by the work required to be done in parts of the Wanganui district. But on the other hand, to bring such accusations against the small road boards ae had been done by one hon. member, was something wholly undeserved, for he knew they had not only done good service, but had endeavored to do a great deal more than it was in their power to accomplish. While from'personal convictions, he was in favor of seeing the main lines of road in charge of the Government, he maintained its work could not be done either as expeditiously or cheaply as by these small boards. He might give an instance of a bridge which was opened for traffic in twenty-four hours, when if it had been under the control of the Government it would not have been opened for weeks. Some members said the bill was provincial, some anti-provincial. But h© had no doubt at all on the character of the

bill. Why, it was as thoroughly provincial as the seven smells of Cologne were unsuggestive of fragrance, and if, as the Pro* vincial Treasurer said, it was a measure to pave the way for the departing of provincialism, he could only say it was marvellously hard to see how it was going to be done by any such measure; in fact, it was the most thoroughly provincial measure he had seen for years, and tho proviuce was now revelling in more provincialism than it ever was. Still he should like to support the bill, if ho could find any excuse for doing so. Mr PHARAZYN then moved the adjournment of the debate, which was agreed to, and the Council adjourned at 11.40 till 3 o'clock to-morrow.