TO CORRESPONDENTS.

New Zealander, Volume XVIII, Issue 1724, 17 September 1862, Page 2

TO CORRESPONDENTS.

“ Siberia” has been received; wc understand, and can sympathise with the annoyances to which the High" ay Commissioners of the Fukekohe District have be* subjected; but we do not think that the difficul y will now he got over by merely writing about is a question of public right to roads and to facility of communication which must be settled by law, an wo understand, the matter will be very speedily before rtm Supreme Court,

charm'. And the principle on which we proceed is one which has been so often recognized in discussion on Finance ; viz., that on the whole the best plan for us to do is to adhere as strictly as we can to the Financial Settlement of 1856. By it the whole ordinary Revenue W as placed under the control of this House, merely providing that after wo had made our own Appropriations, the balance should be returned to the Provinces ; and the Territorial Revenue which was declared to belong to the Provincial Governments for the purposes of colonization and public works. Without wishing to renew the discussion in this House which the subject has led to in previous sessions, wo think it the best course to revert from the commencement of this Financial vear to the status quo utile and relieve the Provincial Governments of the North Island for the future from this deduction of Land Revenue. 111. —Progress of the Country. I now propose to take a brief glance at the progress that has been made in the general advancement of the country; a subject to which the House would naturally direct its attention at this time, just after the Triennial (jensus. Hon. members have probably seen the statistical paper recently compiled by that indefatigable Officer, Dr. Bennett, the Registrar-General; and will have gladly seen the unmistakenblo signs of improvement in the condition of the people and in the wealth of the various Provinces. Now, I will not weatr the House by details; but still it is desirable now and then to review the Financial Statement, the causes of any increase that may have taken place in the revenue of the proceeding period, or to consider any ground of apprehension of deficiency in the future. I wifi therefore ask the Committee to follow me into a very few facts. The European population has grown in ten years, 1851 to 1861, from ‘26,000 to more than 100,000, the centesimal increase being 282 per cent, over 1851, and j-2 per cent. over 1858 (the last census) ; and the population of the single Province of Otago at the end of 1861, exceeded the whole European population of the Colony at the end of 1851. Our staple export is wool, and the number of sheep which in 1831 was only 233,000, had reached last December nearly 2,800,000, The improvement of private circumstances which has taken place, will best be seen by the last Bank returns. The Union Bank had on the 31st March, 1862, besides Government Deposits, private deposits to the amount The lb.uk of New South Wales 382,832 And our u vn Bank of New Zealand 206,462 £1,355,736

The lust item Ims greatly increased in the lust quarter, and when the accounts up to the 30th June are published, I um told that our own Bank will have deposits to the amount of nearly half a million sterling, including the Government account now kept there. Turning to the import trade, I find that the imports of 1861 amounted to £2,493,811, against £1,548,333, for last year, being an increase of nearly a million ; and of this amount £937,385 came into the North Island, and £1,556,426 into the Middle Island The Exports of 1861 amounted to £1,370,247, against £588,953 in the preceding year, or more than double;'and of tins amount £212,540 went from the North Island, and £l, £1,157,707 from the Middle Island, including the gold exported to 31st December from Otago. The balance of trade was thus against us to the extent of a million ; but I will read a few words upon that point, spoken in Parliament by the Chancellor of the Exchequer last year, which may be satisfactory to any who suppose that this balance of trade really represents an unsound condition, Mr, Gladstone said in his financial statement in 1861, referring to a similar state of the English Import and Export trade —“If a great increase of importations has taken place, I do not suppose there is any one here, as there might have been in previous times, who will deplore that fact as a great calamity, and will insist that as it must have been paid for in gold, it must constitute an impoverishment of the country. I shall presume that you have faith enough in free trade to believe that an increase in our exports must have accompanied or in due time must necessarily accompany an increase in our importations.” There is, Sir, another subject connected with the progress of the Colony which has naturally excited the interest of all the inhabitants of New Zealand, I mean the Gold discoveries in vat ions parts of the Colony. Now, the a i ount exported since the first ounce was got out of the earth at Nelson is as follows From the Province of Auckland, 334 ounces, exclusive of any thing lately received from Coromandel field : from Nelson, 46,591 ounces, and from Otago, 388,673 ounces, amounting altogether to £435,618, officially valued at £1,660,863. The Gold Revenue of Otago alone is estimated to produce £69,000 this year to that Province. It will be remembered that the Gold Export Dat.v is treated as Revenue arising from the Waste Lat’.N q( the Crown, and therefore goes to the Province. On t* ether hand, the charges for the management ot the IL dd fields (delegated to the Superintendent of Otago), arc necessarily extremely heavy ; indeed they are estimated by that Province to reach over £51,000 in the present year, and there can be no doubt on any one’s mind who has seen the manner in which the Police establishments of that Province are conducted, that the money is well spent. It is not for a moment to be supposed that this House and the country generally have no interest in the proper administration of the Gold Fields’ Revenue; for upon the right appreciation by the Provincial Government of its duties in respect to the protection of life and property, greatly depends the security of the neighbouring Provinces. Amoung the people who have been attracted to Otago, there is of course a certain number belonging to the “ dangerous class,” and if the expenditure of the Gold Revenue had been such as to allow that dangetous class to get abroad among the settlements where Gold Fields have not been discovered, we might have found ourselves the victims of the prosperity of our neighbours, and we might have been obliged in self-defence to reconsider the question of the Gold Revenue, and to take its administration into our own hands. It is therefore with great satisfaction that we are in a position to say that the manner in which these matters are conducted by the Province of Otago has excited the admiration of everybody who has seen what the Police of that Province really is. At Coromandel, no Gold Revenue has yet been raised; but the House will be glad to hear ’that under arrangements which His Excellency has made with the Natives, that part of the country has been opened to the enterprise of gold mining; and 1 believe from the latest information that large results will soon show themselves. For so far as I have the means of judging, the Coromandel quartz reefing will not only yield a considerable Revenue, but will yet attract a European population that will materially aid us in the settlement of many questions of a complicated character. Wc have as yet no measure of the extent of Gold Fields in the Middle Island or at Coromandel, and we really don’t know what is likely to be the prospect for the future. 1 see by returns recently published and Despatches from the Government of Victoria, that the yield ot gold in that Colony has greatly fallen off: and it may perhaps be our fate to bo the greater producing gold country after all. It is easy to see that in the workings which have taken place in Otago and other parts of the Colony, the land has not been exhausted of its gold, for abandoned claims have been found again to yield a considerable profit to the worker and yet may be a source of good fortune to those engaged in the enterprise; reminding mo of Mr. Gladstone’s quotation of Virgil’s lines, under circumstances to which they were perhaps less applicable then they arc to our own:—

Aureus, et simili frondescit virga metallo.” IV. —Estimates o r 1862-3. I now turn to the subject which will probably be of the greatest interest to the Committee, the Estimates for the ensuing year. Sir, it has been perfectly impossible in the week during which the present Ministry has been in office, to give that detailed attention to the Estimates for the necessary services of the year which it would have been their desire and their duty to give under other circumstances. We could not, moreover* have got the necessary printing done in case of our preparation of new Estimates. We have been obliged therefore, though with much reluctance, to resort to the same expedient as our predecessors; for _we were not prepared to ask the House for a long adjournment to revise the various services of the year. We shall do, therefore, exactly what our predecessors did, we shall lay before you the Estimates which were prepared by the late Government. [Mr. WOOD.—When we took office we found no Estimates prepared, . . Mr. STAFFORD.—Were there not written Estimates prepared ? Mr. WOOD. Written estimates of the Customs only; nothing printed.] —Then L was under a misapprehension, arising from the statement made by my predecessor in his Financial Statement last year. I am glad to be corrected; but 1 certainly was under the impression last session, that my hon. friend the then Colonial Treasurer did bring down substantially the same Estimates as had been prepared by his predecessor. [Mr. WOOD.—My Estimates were prepared in a similar manner, that is all.] —Then if he prepared altogether new Estimates of his own, ho did an amount of work which I could not have ventured to undertake myself. However that may be, the difficulty which stopped us was that wo <x>uld not under any circumstances have got the printing done; though we would much rather have done so if we could. 1 will proceed to state the changes we

propose to make in my predecessor’s Estimates; and I should say that I shall adopt what I think will he a better course than that of previous years. Ifhon. Members will merely take these Estimates for the purpose of present information, I shall be ready at the earliest possible day to advise the Governor to send down a Message, asking the House to make provision for gross votes, leading the Committee afterwards upon the several items of the services to be provided for. To some extent we have pursued an inconvenient practice in former Sessions; wo have given to the Executive Government by the course pursued, what is in my opinion an unnecessary power over the Estimates. We have continually seen in this House that when private Members have wished to exercise their legitimate functions of either checking public expenditure or making alterations in the votes, they have been met by the Government with the statement “No! wo have made up our minds as to the proposal and we will not suffer any alteration of the Estimates to be made.” Now I am very desirous that this House should exercise a practical control over the expenditure; but on a point like this, so many considerations are involved, that I shall not desire to press my paiticulur view on the House if they should think the old practice the best. Sir, 1 will not detain the House by going into details, but will for the present purpose merely call the atten tion of the Committee to the totals. I think the Estimate formed by my predecessor of the probable Ordinary Revenue of the Colony for 1862-3 is reasonable; in fact, my hon. friend (Mr. Wood) and 1 have had several communications as to the basis on which his calculations were founded, and weare substantially agreed upon them. Sir, it has not hitherto been the practice to inform the Committee of Ways and Means in detail of the Revenue Estimated ftom Customs for the various Provinces, and we have been contented with a statement of the sum in gross. But I see no practical objection to stating the basis upon which the Estimate of the Customs is framed; and J may add that the proposals of my predecessor have this advantage over the previous practice, that the expenditure is divided imo two classes, one relating only to the General Department of Government at Head Quarters and the other relating to the Expenditure on General Departments within the Provinces. The old Kstimatcs classified the expenditure under the several Departments; for instance you saw under one head the Customs Expenditure fur Auckland, Wellington, Lyttlcton, &c; and could compare each item of expenditure proposed for one Province with the corresponding expenditure in the same Department for another Province. That was an advantage no doubt; but the plan now adopted affords a better means of letting Members see what is the general expenditure within the Provinces with which each is connected; and they will be able to compare the expenditure in each Province with the Revenue.

The following is the Estimated Ordinary Revenue for 1862-3: Customs £413.000 Postal • • • • • • • • • • • ■ 20,000 Judicial •• •• ■■ •• 14, WK) Registration of Deeds •• ■■ 7,<K1(l Registration of Birth?, Deaths, and Marriages 1,500 Crown Grant Fees ■ •• •• 1.6(H) Miscellaneous •• •• •• •• 1,111)0 £‘450,000 The detail of the Customs Estimate is as follows: Provinces 1861-2 1 802-3 Auckland •• •• •• 70 750 •• •• 92,000 Taranaki 6,303 •• 0,000 Wellington •• •• 30,500 •• •• 40, 000 Hawke’s Bay •• 0,470 ■■ 9,000 Nelson 20.705 •• 22.500 Marlborough •• •• 1,063 •• 2,000 Canterbury •• 43,312 •• •• 50 000 Otago 133,470 •• 100,01)0 Southland •• •• 7,791 •• 9,500 £‘339,393 £*413,0(0

Now, I am disposed to think that on the whole, those Estimates will be come up to. Perhaps the Auckland Estimates will be found to he too low, and the Receipts for the year may approach £IOO,OOO. (Hear, bear, from Mr! Williamson, Superintendent of Auckland). 1 think also that wc shall realize more than £40,000 at Wellington, and more than £22,500 at Nelson, and there can hardly be any doubt whatever of realising more than £50,000 at Canterbury. But I am not so sure about the sum put down by my predecessor for Otago. The actual receipt in that Province for the last quarter is not quite £37,000, and for the quarter before that £43,000; but £IBO,OOO represents £45,00n a quarter, and I am not so sure that wc can rely upon receiving that amount throughout the coming year. At the same time, as during the last twelve months so great an increase has actually occurred, I have not felt justified in rejecting the calculation of my predecessor, and I may add that my coming into office only in the last few days, and without access to the main sources of information at the Treasury, I should not under any circumstances have made any great difference in his Estimate of the Probable Revenue. The Postal Revenue is put down at £20,000, and Z think it will be exceeded. 'The whole amount of Ordinary Revenue under the heads of Receipts is £458,000. Well, that is a large sum, but wc have got a great deal to do with it: and I am afraid I shall not be able to promise any large surplus, notwithstanding the increase on the Receipts of the previous year. Sir, while it has been my pleasing duty hitherto to refer to increases of Revenue, paying off Treasury Hills,

settlements of old accounts of Unauthorised Expenditure and so forth, I am now in that unpleasant position in which the Treasurer always is towards the end of his statement, when he has to ask the House for large sums of money, which might otherwise have been used for the extension of colonisation and the construction of public works. I find that my predecessor proposed to change the Civil List from £19,000 to £06,000. I do not mean to propose that myself, because we should he placing out of our power that control over the expenditure of our money which we ought to hold. [Mr. WOOD.—The Civil List is repcalable by the House.] —Certainly not: the Civil List is a grant to Her Majesty of a permanent amount. [Mr. WOOD: It can be repealed at any moment.] Can it though? If my hon. friend thinks he can repeal the existing Civil List of £19,000, he is quite mistaken. But to proceed, I find my hon. friend proposed to increase the Governor's salary to £4,500: in which the present Government entirely concur with their predecessors; though we must till feel that in making this addition to the Governor’s salary, while the Governor is Sir George Grey, we can but very ill pretend to oiler him any compensation for the personal and pecuniary sacrifices which he made in assuming the Government of this Colony. While, therefore, we cordially agree with our predecessors in asking that increase, I hope no one will suppose we offer it as a recompense to Sir George Grey, but simply as a Governor’s salary, whoever he may be. Our predecessors also proposed to increase the salaries of the Chief Justice to £1,500 a year, find of the Buisne Judges from £I,OOO to £1,200 a year. We however propose a larger addition; we shall propose a Salary of £1,700 to the Chief Justice and £1,500 to each of the Puisne Judges, of whom by the way, there will now be three, instead of two. The fact is, we don’t look at the matter as a question of a few pounds more or less. Perfect indifference, complete freedom in pecuniary matters, and that dignity which always accompanies a good income (laughter), ought to be placed securely in the possession of the Judges of the Supreme Court. We have no business to ask Judges to come here from England, and spend their own money. They arc placed in a position which requires the exercise of hospitality, and they have therefore to spend a good deal of money which the Government has no right to ask them to do out of their private means. A salary of £I,OOO is notoriously too small, either for the work done, or the maintenance of the Judge in a proper position. But \vc go further; for wc want to carry out that proposal mentioned in a recent debate, and which 1 believe is

favoured by the Judges themselves, namely to incicaso the amount of work in tile Supreme Court, by handing over to it business which would have been done by the District Courts had they been maintained, so that our proposal will bo really found to be an economy after all. The Ministers salaries we propose to leave as they were, .£BOO a year, with the exception oj ,the Postmaster-General’s, which, (so long as he is Minister) ought to be on the same scale as that of the other Ministers. We also propose as our predecessors did, to raise the Salary of the Under Secretary (Mr. Gisborne), to .4000 a year, and every one who knows the services that gentleman has rendered to New Zealand will say that this salary is no more than a decent remuneration. I am very glad it should have fallen to me as his old friend to ask for this increase. Ihe Assistant Law Officer's salary we propose to leave ns it is. That Officer (Mr. Fenton) is one of the ablest men in the country, and has on various occasions rendered most valuable services; but the foci, is, he win not accept any higher salary, as he will not throw away his professional income uidcss you offer him something like £1,200 a year. We also propose an increase of XIUO a year in the salary of two other most valuable servants, the Auditor and Treasurer. Then there is a Salary which we propose to retain on the Civil List, but which was intended by our predecessors to be struck out. ! mean the salary of the Minister for Native Affairs. [Mr. FITZGERALD,— Docs my lion, friend want i to take two salaries?] —Certainly not. . , [Mr. WARD,—How many Ministers Sabines am ! provided for?]

Xhc old number, five; as to the salaries of £BOO each for a Secretary and Solicitor-General for the Middle Island, we do iiot intend to adopt them. Our predecessors’ plan was agreed to he dropped when the members of the Middle Island assembled to consider what improvement could be made in the administration of the Government in that Island. With respect to the £50,0(10 for carrying out Sir George Grey’s schema, which my lion, friend proposed to place on the Civil List, 1 certainly do not intend to charge that sum on the ordinary Civil List; but I will refer to that presently. Before going any further, 1 wish to point out to the Committee a few items in the Estimates of the late Ministry with regard to which the present Government will not be able to make the same proposals. In the first place, ns regards the item £IOOO interest on £20,000 to be raised on loan during the current year, we do not propose it to be adopted, because we intend bringing down a plan of larger extent, into which I will not however go now, as it will form part of the Native Policy to be discussed next week. Nor do wo intend to borrow money for our liabilities to the Imperial Government if we can help it. The item of £I2OO for the Middle Island departments wc shall of course, omit; while wc must increase the sum proposed by the late Government lor the expenditure of the General Assembly. I will now state generally our proposal of expenditure for the year, amounting to a total sum of £292,323 12s. Bd. But I must ask the Committee not to consider me pledged to these items exactly, as 1 shall shortly bring down a Message slowing the precise amounts; with regard to the General Expenditure within the Provinces, that will be about £91,000. The following are the details of the Expenditure: — General Expenditure. £' (I. Civil Gist • • • • 211,500 0 0 Permanent Charges •• !WI,7IM> 0 It Executive 1,07-1 5 () Legislative •• •• 12,5ii0 0(I Judicial •• •• dan (t 0 Registration • • • ■ 2,1110 0 o Customs • • • • 675 •• 0 Postal 3d,000 0 O Militia and Volunteers 9,281 0 o Miscellaneous • • 11,902 15 0 Provincial Expenditure. £ (| . Auckland • ■ 18,260 15 0 Taranaki •• 2,8:0 0 0 Wellington •• 9,970 5 0 Hawke's Day • • •• 3,801 o o Nelson • ■ • • • • 6,852 o o Marlborough •• 2,6(55 O O Canterbury •• 1-1,321 3 O Otago ■ • • • ■ ■ 29,393 10 0 Southland • • • 3,780 0 O Three-eighths of Customs • • •• •• 1.51,875 o o Surplus •• ■■ ■■ •• 19,801 7-t £•158,000 0 0

Tim Committee will thus see that after deducting the three eighths Customs Kevenuc to he paid to the Provinces, I shall still have a considerable surplus. Before going on to another subject, I should like to say a few words with respect to the Steam Postal Service. Last year the contribution of the Colony to the main lire (England to Australia) amounted to £7,000, and this year weeannot fairly estimate it at less than £IO,OOO I shall take the liberty, with the leave, I hope, of my Iron, friend the late Postmaster-General, to rely upon him for acquainting the Committee more thoroughly than 1 can do, with the details of the service which has been in operation in 1861. There was one inter-Colonial and one iuter-Proviucial service, costing the Colony £ 10,000 a year, in addition to which there was granted as a contribution towards a second inter-Colonial service to Auckland, the sum of £3OOO, making £13,000, which sum has not been exceeded during the Financial year of 1861-2, hot 1862-3 the Postal Service is as follows. When my hon, friend the late Postmaster-General went to Melbourne, he made arrangements the effect of which is, that we have two inter-Colonial Services costing the Colony £6OOO, and two intor-Provincial Services costing £15,000; together £21,000, which is the amount to which we actually stand committed by existing engagements. But it is now proposed to add a third inter-Colonial Service, between Melbourne and Otago, which is estimated to cost another £15,000 a year for two steamers, which would bring up the total cost to £36,000 a year for the three lines, if that be the plan ultimately adopted by the House. lam not going at present into the advisability ol the scheme, because that has been before considered by the Steam Postal Committee,w hose resolutions are now before you for confirmation; but remember that i! you are to have a third line in addition to those existing, you must enable me to pay .£36,000 a year for tbs three. V.—Sin Gkouok G key's Plan of Native GOVKUNtfKNT.

I now come to the consideration of the appropriation of £50,000 on the Civil List proposed by our predecessors, for Sir George Grey’s plan. I will tell the Committee the course which the Government is, at present, inclined to propose; at present, inclined, I say, because it must he quite obvious that, although in deference to the general desire of the House L make a Financial statement now, the whole question of Native Government is involved financially and politically in the question of the relations between the Imperial Government and the Colony, raised by the Duke of Newcastle s Despatch. Wo arc admittedly in a crisis where we have to reconsider altogether our relations with the Imperial Government. It must be understood, therefore, that the proposal which 1 make now is only the one I should have asked the House to assent to if the question of those relations had not arisen. I should simply have asked the Committee to adopt the proposals of the Duke of Newcastle; and to pass an Act grunting to Her Majesty' for three years, the sum of £20,000 annually (that is to say, £19,000 in addition to the £7,000 already on the Civil List for Native purposes), and also granting a further sum of £5 a head for all of the Troops which should bo in the Colony during that period of three years. I shall assume that the £7,000 appropriated for National Schools is not our property to deal with, for we cannot take it away from those schools : nor ought wo to make the fact of our having appropriated, this £7, out) to schools a ground for reduction it) any appropriation which we may consider it just to make to Her Majesty for Native Government under Sir George Grey’s plan. What we want to do is this—standing as we do on the basis that we will not he responsible for Native policy, hut that while giving the Governor our best advice and willingly' undertaking the business of administration, we will not assume the right of determining those questions which really' involve Imperial interests; and I say they arc involved every daystanding in that position, I say, we are ready to give the Governor our best co-operation and assistance in carrying out the plan which he considers best for the government of the Natives; and approving as we do the general principles of that plan, we will give him the pecuniary means of carrying it out. Wo will do what the Secretary of State tells ns we must do to

obtain the approval of the Imperial Government; we will, without trenching on the £7,000 for schools, make good the sum of £2(5,000 a year for three years, and pay a further charge of £5 a head for every soldier serving in the* Colony,—which the Governor is to appropriate to such extent as he requires for his plan, the accounts of the whole expenditure being laid before Parliament: helping him as far as wo can, and ns the guardians of Colonial interests responsible to this House for their protection, urging our respectful remonstrances where wc cannot approve, but practically adopting bis general proposals, and desirous to afford it so far as our efforts are concerned, every chance of success. There is, however, another matter also involved in the consideration of the general question of Native affairs. It is the intention of the IVlinisteis, as stated by my hon. friend at the head of the Government, the other day, to ask for the loan of a million for the purposes of colonization and immigration. I am nut going to anticipate here the discussion that must necessarily ensue on this proposal, or go into debatable questions while a decision on the main question of our relations with the Imperial Government is adjourned for another week : but I ought to state that a part of the advice which we thought it our duty to tender to the Governor was, that the House should he asked to authorize that loan. Nor is this, for the same reason, the proper time Cor me to disclaim any' intention on the part ot the General Government to interfere with the legitimate functions and rights of the Northern Provincial Governments; hut Ido say, that a necessary part of Sir George Grey’s plan, and a necessary means to its success is, that wc should not merely deal with the Native question as one requiring onlv institutions for the Native people, hut us one which must be met by carrying on Hritish colonization and adding large numbers of Europeans to the present population of the Northern Island. The General Government will not think of imposing, and still less will Middle Island members think.of imposing. Oil the Provinces of the North Island any burden which is not admitted by Northern Members to be for the best interest of their provinces. 1 invite, therefore, all the hon. members representing the Northern Island to give their must serious consideration to the question, whether it would he advisable to grant to the Governor this means of converting our relations with the Native

people from a source of difficulty and danger into a source of prosperity and contentment. If you enable tiic Government to raise a sufficient sum ol money for this purpose, and if the Provincial Governments and the representatives of the Northern Provinces consider it will be best for the interests of the whole Northern Island, that that course shall be taken, I shall be pre-

pared on my part to bring down a more specific proposal, and to state the plan on which the Loan would be spent. [Mr. FOX —From what source is the interest of the Loan to be paid?] Wc propose to charge it upon the Ordinary Revenue of those Provinces of the North Island which it will benefit; but there are questions arising out of our Native Lands Bill which materially atiect this financial part of the plan, and, therefore, 1 purposely refrain from going into it. Until we have had the question of the Native Land Policy and our relations with the Imperial Government made clear, 1 will not make a specific proposal as to the funds against which the interest of such a loan should be charged ; but my hon. friend opposite (Mr. Fox) may be sure that the principle of any proposal whatever w ill be, that the Provinces of the North Island being supposed to be benefitted by a large expenditure within their limits, will have to pay the interest in proportion to the benefit which they receive. [Mr. MOORIIOUSE—It will be a specific charge, then, upon the Northern Island ?]

—Yes. [Mr. FOX—Will no new taxes be made for the purpose?] —No. I believe myself that no such plan could possible lie proposed with any success unless it rested on the faith of those engaged in it that it will be a selfsupporting transaction. If we are to raise a Loan which shall be a permanent burden upon the people in the North Island, and not in itself a paying transaction, it will not, either financially or politically, be a scheme worthy of being entered into at all. But, if it can be shown that, in the long run, it must be productive ol such a revenue as will far more than cover the interest ol llie Loan to be raised, then I think a scheme ot that kind can be carried into effect without the imposition of any heavy burden on the people. 1 will not, I repeat, anticipate the discussion that must take place on this subject; but in order that my hon. friend (Mr. Fox) may not suppose the question has been lightly taken up* I will, in the same spirit in which I beg to invite his consideration to the political part of the measure, also call his attention to its financial side. It

is admitted that we may fairly estimate that our population, numbering 100,000, will pay £400,000, Customs Pcvcmic in the ensuing year. If this bo a reasonable basis of calculation, it is evident tiiat a population introduced as wc propose, would contribute to the Customs alone a sum far greater than the interest upon the Loan raised for their introduction; for this estimate of £400,000 gives an average receipt of £4 a-head from every man, woman, and child in the Colony: and you will find that, at Otago, for instance, where the proportion of contributors to the Customs Revenue were naturally higher than the proportion of contributions in other Provinces, the amount raised was at the rate of more than £5 a-head over the entire population, in Auckland, with a population of 27,000, as rich and as successful as any that there is in the Colony, the Customs Revenue is estimated this year to reach £92,000, including the contributions of the Maori population. The contribution ot the Natives to the Customs was carefully measured in 1858 by Mr. C. W, Richmond, of whom 1 take this opportunity (as 1 shall always take every opportunity) of saying, that the paper he has left with us will ever remain proofs of his rare ability, his foresight, and his just and comprehensive views. He estimated the Customs Revenue contributed by the Maoris of the whole Northern Island, in 1858, at £IG,OOO. Assuming that to be a fair calculation for the present year, you will see that (the Maori population having remained stationary) the £92,000 of Customs expected to be raised in Auckland this year represents a rate per head which, though very much lower than the rate per head at i itago, is still about £3 a-hcad for the European population. Just apply these calculations to the financial transaction of paying the interest on a Loan for introducing people, by the Contribution ot the people to the Customs, and 1 think it will he admitted that there will be no necessity to resort to additional hardens on the people. But I say again, that if the opinion of members of the Northern Island should be that the proposal would lie one neither self-supporting nor ensuring (what we believe it does) a permanent settlement of the Native question, then will be the proper time for you to say, “it is a proposal politically unsafe and financially imprudent.” Hir, I avow, in the meantime, that I have faith in the opposite conclusion ; in being able to prove byc-and-bye, that the bond of common interest on which wc propose to rest our future transactions with the Natives will, applied to a transaction like this, make it politically safe and financially sound. There remains another subject to be considered, on which I am not able yet to say anything certain to-day, since any attempt on our part to make up our minds, or to ask this fWhso to make up its mind to a s»| ecific proposal, would improperly anticipate the determination to which the House must come on the larger question ol Native policy to be discussed next Tuesday. But while I reserve to the Government the right to conic down presently with some definite proposal on that subject, I do not hesitate to say, in the meantime, that the state of the Taranaki settlement demands the earliest attention of the House. The Taranaki settlers have just sent a Memorial to the Government, which I shall not be trespassing too much on the attention of the House if 1 ask to be allowed to read. [The Treasurer then read the Memorial dated Bth August.) This Memorial of the Superintendent and Provincial Council of Taranaki was passed only a few days ago, and published in the Provincial Government Gazelle ot the Blh August, and which reached me bythc “ Lord Worsley,” on Tuesday. Sir, 1 regret that the Superintendent and Provincial Council of that Province should have thought it right to advance against Sir George Grey and the late Ministers a charge such as is made in this Petition, of a want of sympathy and good feeling; for I am perfectly satisfied that when the settlers of Taranaki reflect on all the circumstances that have occurred they must themselves admit it is without foundation. At the same time this House will be ready to make every allowance for the feelings of disappointment, irritation, and almost despair under which these hard words were penned. I think, Sir, our practical course on the receipt ot a Memorial like this, must he to dismiss from our minds every feeling hut the one that it comes from men embittered by disasters which it is otir duty, as far as lies in our power, effectually to relieve; and that, while not admitting a legal right of compensation against the Colony, on the part of any settlement or Province, for the evils of what was in reality equal to a Foreign aggression, and not a mere riot which as in England would entitle the inhabitants to have their losses made good out of tho£public purse, this House should be ready to fulfil the moral obligation which His Excellency’s present advisers think the country is under to replace, if possible, the inhabitants of Taranaki in the prosperity they enjoyed before that aggression. The Memorial having only come down three or four days ago. I trust the Committee will see that I am not yet in a position to make any specific proposal about it ; but the Government will give the matter their best consideration, and will be ready to ask the advice and the assistance of the House as to the proper course to pursue. I cannot dismiss this subject without referring to the arrangements which have been made by the late Government with respect to the Taranaki Militia; because that is a matter which must necessarily be considered in connection with any further relief to the Taranaki people. The arrangements for the Militia may ho shortly stated to be these:—Last year the Government found that the Militia Expenditure at Taranaki was going on at the rale of nearly £32,000 a year for pay and rations, which was producing no return beyond the Military services performed. ’Hie late Ministers wished to make the money paid available for the construction of roads, and they made arrangements which have reduced the expenditure to something like £12,000 a year for Militia, besides employing about 30 / men of the 57th Regiment, at the rate of lOd per day. It will easily be seen that the expenditure, even to the lesser extent which is now going on (unde'-’ guarantee of this House for tnc repayment of Commissariat advances) must bo an clement of consideration in dealing with the Taranaki ease, and 1 propose when the Native policy is finally settled, to come down with a specific proposal on that head.

V. Imperial Charges. I now turn, Sir, I am thankful to say, to the last question which it will he my duty to bring before the Committee ; namely, the Imperial charges against this ■Colony. Sir, I am not, in doing so, about to give any fmarcs of mine. I have hitherto been dealing with figures representing only the Colonial accounts and records ; but in this matter of the Imperial Bill, and in most of the observations I shall now address to the Committee, I intend only to deal with ligures stated bv Imperial Officers. I desire that by and bye, when tfiis Financial Statement comes to be read elsewhere, its I suppose it will be, it shall not bo said that I have advanced anything that has not been clearly stated by Imperial Officers themselves. The annual charge of the force now In this Colony, as stated by Deputy Commissary-General .lones in his Minute to General j Cameron, (printed in the Sessional papers of this year I No. 1. sec. 2.) is under existing circumstances as ; follows : Regimental Pay of the Troops •• ■■ £171,000 General, and Commissariat, and Hospital Staff-• 11,000 Hospital Expenditure •• •• . r »,(IOO Land and inl and Water i’runsport ■ ■ • ■ (5,000 1 Field Allowance 500 , Military Store, llarrack, and Royal Engineer, Civil Department ■■ •• •• 2,700 j Local Expenditure • • •• 500 I Lodging Money •• •• 8,000 j Hire of Buildings ■> ' 11 >■ 3,000

Wages and Extra Labour 1,000 Clothing 100 Provisions, &c., including Pecuniary Allowance 110,000 Warlike Stores •• •• •• •• •• 500 Itoyal Engineer Works •. ... .. .. 5.000 Sea Transport • • • • • • • • • • 5,000 making a total estimated charge under existing circumstances (in time of peace) of £329,000 or about £50,000 a year for every 1000 soldiers. But this amount really represents money which would have had to be paid at all events to a great extent, by the British Treasury wherever the troops had been stationed ; and it cannot therefore be said that the whole cost of the Troops is properly chargeable upon New Zealand. When it is urged that New Zealand costs the British Treasury so much per annum for the force stationed here, it is forgotten that these Troops (or at any rate a great number of them) would have had to be employed somewhere else if they were not employed here. With regard to the £IIO,OOO for provisions, I was at first under the impression that this amount was a larger sum than the provisioning of the Troops would have cost in England ; but now I find that is a misapprehension. Under arrangements in existence since last February and April, with respect to provisioning the Army, the soldier pays threepence half-penny a day for his provisions ; and it costs the Imperial Treasury less here to feed the Troops than it would cost at home. In the debates oflast March, in the House of Commons, on Colonial Military expenditure, the amount which New Zealand costs was put down at a much greater sum than the one I have just stated. I see that Mr. Adderley said in the debate of the 13th March that he had heard from a New Zealand Colonist that the total expenditure of the Imperial Government in the Colony was about £900,000 a year, add that, adding the cost of stores, Transport Service, and Naval Establishment, the total expenditure could not be less than £1,500,000 a year. Ido not know who Mr. Adderlcy’s informant could have been ; but this wc know, that Mr. Adderley spoke a year after hostilities had ceased ; and his

informant represents us as costing the British Treasury at the rate of a million and a half in times of peace. You cannot wonder then] that people in England when they find these statements made on the high authority of Mr. Adderley, should feel that New Zealand is a heavy burden upon the British taxpayer and that so enormous an expenditure ought to be stopped. But I have shewn by the figures of the able officer at the Inal of the Commissariat himself that the cost of the Troops under existing circumstances is estimated at less than a fourth of what Mr. Adderley’s informant led him to believe. Indeed I have to refer the Committee to another Statement, also by Deputy’ Commissary General Jones, showing exactly what was the extra expenditure actually incurred during the recent war ; and this is a material point for us to bear in mind when we are dealing with the expenses of the Troops in New Zealand, for I believe that a misunderstanding of the facts is at the bottom of the apparent determination of the House of Commons to relieve themselves as much as possible of the Military Expenditure of Colonies as evidenced by the Resolution on the subject which they passed last March. Now, the amount which was actually paid by the Imperial Government during the twelve months that military operations were going on in the Colony as stated by the Imperial Officer in the charge of the Commissariat (I mean the extra expenditure occasioned by the war,) was £143,048. This sum, it is true, was only up to March 1861 ; but in March 1862, it had not grown to a much higher figure, for in his Financial Speech of this year Mr Gladstone said: — “ With respect to New Zealand we have only brought to charge at present £250,000. But that dbes not include the question how far the 5000 or 6000 men in New Zealand would have been kept up if not wanted for service there. It is only what we paid up to 31st March, 1862, and lam bound to say it docs not cover the whole war expenditure in New Zealand.” Wc therefore have this astonishing fact, that though the Colony was said to cost a million and a halt annually, the Chancellor of Exchequer in his Budget speech only calls on the House of Commons to provide for a quarter of a million as the expenditure known up to April this year, to have been made up to the termination of hostilities. So that if we consider what is the actual cost to the Imperial Government of the force now in the Colony in a time of peace —apart, of course, from that which we all of us most earnestly hope will not happen, the renewal of military operations—the total amount is not more than £2,500 a month over

ami above regimental pay, staff-allowances, and provisions, which would have been paid anywhere, while during the whole time of the war it did not exceed £12,000 a month. I come now, Sir, to the practical matter before us, I mean the Imperial Bill; and I will state to the Committee as shortly as I can what that Bill is. When Governor Gore Browne was at New Plymouth in March 1800, he demanded from the Colonial Treasurer a guarantee for the repayment to the Crown of any money that should be issued by the Commissariat for pay and rations to the Taranaki Militia. That guarantee was given by Mr. Richmond ; but the Colonial Government having afterwards found that there was a Horse Guards memorandum authorising the issue of these monies from the Commissariat chest upon the Go vernor’s order, the Governor withdrew his demand. When the matter was referred to the Secretary of State, he objected to that withdrawal. In a Despatch which ho sent out on the 2Gffi January, 1861, after reciting the circumstances, me Duke of Newcastle directed the Governor as follows :

I have now to instruct yo,t| not to make any further advances to the Colonial Government from the Commissariat chest, in respect to the expenses of secret Service money or for the maintenance of any local force, except on a district pledge given by the Govern* ment of the Colony that all such advances will be repaid from Colonial funds so far as the Imperial Government shall require repayment.’’ But that Despatch was written under a misunderstanding of the Horse Guards memorandum ; and in a late Despatch of 25th of March 18GI, the Duke of Newcastle renewed his determination that the money should be refunded if required. The Governor, on the 25th June, scut down a Message to the House in the following words : “ The Governor is aware that the Colony has not the means of meeting the outlay which may be required for organising and maintaining the Colonial Forces in an effective state ; and he is prepared to sanction the issue from the Commissariat chest of the money required for the purpose ; but he can only do so upon the conditions prescribed by the Secretary of State in his.Despatch of 2Gih January, 1801.” The House accepted this condition in a Reply to the Message : and later in the Session (on the 3rd September) the House came to the following Resolution :

“ That this House guarantees the necessary provision to moot the Expenditure authorised by the Address of this House, in reply to His Excellency’s Message No. 2.” The Colony has therefore entered into a solemn guarantee to the Imperial Government that it will repay the money ; and I think there can be no question whatever that the time has arrived when some arrangement should be made to meet the liability wo then undertook. The demand made by the Imperial Government, as stated in the accounts sent in by the Commissariat, is as follows :

£ s. (I. Arms ami Ammunition • ■ ■ • • ■ 5,072 4 II Fay and Contingent Expenses of Militia and Volunteers •• •• •• •• 00,273 2 Clothing and Equipment of ditto •• •• into - 4 l nations and Forage •• •• •• 24,896 3r>

Hire of Steamers •• ■■ Hi.422 2 10 Field Defences •• •• •• •• 2,12(1 0 4 Graluiiy to Officers and Crews of Her Majesty’s Ships • • •• •• S,OiH) 0 0 Miscellaneous •• •• •• 87 o 0 Demand of £'s per head for troops, from April 1858, to.'llst March 1802 •• •• 53,58? Id 0 Harracks at Taranaki • • •• 7><H)o 0 0 Estimated Amount for Troops to 30th June, 18(12 •• •• • •• 6,750 0 0 Estimated Amount for Taranaki Militia ditto 3,363 0 0 £186,163 lit 4 I call hon. member’s attention to these figures, because the Duke of Newcastle's Despatch of 2Gth May last, refers to £192,000, as having been incurred to the end of October, 1801, whereas the whole amount of bills scut in by the Commissariat, including the estimate ior Troops to 30th June 1002, being six months more than the Duke requires the Colony to give, is only £186,000. But, sir, in this bill arc included certain items which it docs not appear to Ills Excellency’s present advisers, nor I believe to the late Government, that the Imperial Government would, on a consideration ol the case, insist upon our paying. There is, in the first place the sum of £2,238 in cash, which the Colony has actually paid ; in the second place, there is the expenditure on account of tho Barracks at Napier and Auckland, amounting to £7,397, which we understood tobc included in the £5 ft head contribution for troops, granted by this House since 1858. There is a demand of £5,072 for arms and ammunition, and of £16,422 for hire ol steamers at Taranaki, which last item was incurred for sending supplies bv sea to the Waitara camp, instead of by an escort overland. That is a peculiarly military transaction, adopted for military purposes, and does not come within the terms either of the Duke of Newcastle’s condition of January, 1861, or of our own guarantee. We are bound by every item included in the guarantee, but wo arc not bound tor items not so included ; indeed 1 a question may arise whether wo arc rightfully bound fgr advances made prior to the Governor’s Message, for

the Duke of Newcastle says—“ I instruct you to make no further advances without a pledge of repayment” should also mention with regard to the item for field defences, that I hope the Home Government will relieve us of it, because at first sight it would seem to be as equitable an interpretation of onr guarantee to charge us for General Pratt’s immortal sap. Another item which the Duke ofNewcastle now proposes to charge us with, and it is one of too much importance for the Government to come to a hasty determination upon immediately on the receipt of the Duke’s Despatch, is the cost of the road from Drury to the Waikato. Sir, it will be in the recollection ofhon. members who have read the papers laid before the House this session, that when the Governor returned from the meetings he held with the Waikato chiefs, he determined upon the formation of a military road between Auckland and the bunks of the Waikato River, and I think it clearly appears ("though perhaps we ought not to go farther than the words of the Despatch in which Sir George Grey announced that decision, or of the Speech with which His Excellency opened the present Session), that in point of fact that road was constructed with a strategical object and for military purposes. What course was taken by the late Ministers upon that question I am not able to say, because the Minute Ministers sent to the Governor is not in the possession of the present Government, If, therefore, any advice was given by the late Ministry to the Governor on the subject of that road, it will probably be thought desirable by the members of the late Government to state to the House what the nature of their engagement with the Governor on behalf of the colony really was, so that we may sec precisely our position. Sir, in referring to the questions pending between the Imperial Government and the Colony, the Duke of Newcastle tells us that “ he secs no adequate apprtehension on the part of (he New Zealand Government, of the obligation under which the colonists themselves lie to exert themselves in their own defence, and to submit to those sacrifices which are necessary’ from persons whose lives and property’ are in danger.” Sir, upon the political question involved in that statement I am not about to enter now ; they will come more properly under discussion in the debate of next Tuesday and should not be anticipated in a Financial Statement; but I think it is right that the House should have before it only a few items showing the amount of sacrifices already made by the Colony or demanded of it, for maintainance of the Queen’s authority. Let me present the purely financial part of the question, and when you come to the political part, you will be able to say whether it is true that no sacrifice has been made by the Colony. If the whole amount of this Bill is really insisted upon by the Imperial Government and we have to pay XI 86,000, if we take the expended war loan of £150,000 ; if we count our appropriations of £17,000 in the last two years for Millitia and other military expenditure ; if we add the extra votes given to the Native Service of £IO,OOO ; and we assume the actual losses of the Taranaki settlers (besides the £25,000 voted last year for their relief), at only £125,000 instead of £200,000 which they ask in their Memorial, wc shall find already a sacrifice made by' the Colony to the extent of nearly half a million of money. Whether wc are called upon or not to provide for all these claims I say that if those figures do justly show what the war has really cost us, £500,000 barely represents the amount of the sacrifices already made by a population of less than 100,000 souls. Even assuming that we may obtain a reduction of some items of the Imperial Bill or a fair representation of our interpretation of the guarantee, this sum represents Five Pounds per head for every man, woman, and child in the Colony. Do hon. members realise this? do they see that it is equivalent to this, that if the calamity of war should unhappily fall on England, and the English people should be required to make sacrifices on their part, the sum we have already paid, lost, or arc called upon to meet is equal to £150,000,000 sterling on the population of Great Britian and Ireland ? Sir, the whole sacrifices imposed upon the English people, as far as money goes, by the Russian war, does not equal in its rate per head, the sacrifice which has already been made by or claimed from the Colony for the Taranaki war. I desire to speak with the fullest recognition of the prompt and generous ail afforded to us by the Duke of Newcastle in our time of need ; but I must say it seems to me that hard words are used towards us, when we arc told we shrink from any sacrifice that we ought to make. The Duke calls upon us for farther sacrifices: but is this money all the sacrifice we have made ? Are we to count for nothing the destruction of hundreds of home-steads, the utter ruin of a thriving and peaceful population, the desolation of an entire British settlement, the sufferings of innocent women and children turned adrift into a strange place to receive the charity of their fellow colonists or staying behind to breathe of the pestilential air of a beleagured town ? But, Sir, even the amount I have stated by no means covers all we have to pay. In addition to the extraordinary claims on account of the tvar wc have to keep up the ordinary establishments for maintaining peace and order and the security of property ; we have to pay more than £IOO,OOO a year in the various Provinces for Police and Gaols. Every calculation of the Expenditure of a country on purposes of self defence includes its contributions for Police and Gaols ; and the fact is, that we pay more than £1 a head on our whole population. Now, Victoria with five times the population, pays 13s. 6d. a head, including its contribution to the Imperial troops and the maintenance of a ship of war ; lS T ew South Wales, with a population of 321,000; pays only 15s. per head : Queensland, having a Native Police, pays upon its population of 30,000 a rate of 245. a head. But the whole cost to the people of Great Britian for Army, Navy, Police, &c., is estimated to be only 18s. a head. We, therefore, in addition to the sacrifices caused by the war, have to make an annual Appropriation for the preservation of peace and order, and this will, I hope, not be forgotten in any reconsideration of the claims made on us.

I will now, Sir, state what the Government specifically proposes for the settlement of the Imperial claim. la the first place, we must admit that we are liable clearly for £49,387 for our contribution of £5 a head to the troops up to 31st December 1861, the time fixed by the Duke of Newcastle’s Despatch of 26th May last; we arc chargeable for £60,273 for the pay and contingent expenses of Militia and Volunteers; we arc clearly liable for £7OOO the cost of Taranaki Barracks which we have guaranteed. The items alone amount to about £120,000. Now, what is our duty in this matter ? In the first place, what is the interpretation of the Duke of Newcastle’s Despatch 2Gth January 1861 ? Here is a Despatch imposing a condition that no further advances shall be made, except a pledge of repayment by the Colony to such an extent as the Imperial Government may require. We think that the guarantee given at the commencement of the war and renewed last Session, docs not apply to some of the items claimed. Now, I propose that we should do this, —pass an Act reciting that certain advances have been made by the Imperial Treasury for these specific purposes, the Duke had prescribed as to further advances certain conditions which we have accepted ; that doubts had arisen as to the interpretation of the conditions, and our guarantee ; that in order to arrive at a final and equitable settlement, it should be left to the Secretary of State to name some referee, to whom it should be left to determine what sum wc actually owe on a fair interpretation of that guarantee, that the sum so determiaed should be certified by the Secretary of State ; and that we should presently enact (without waiting lor that determination) that the sum certified should be read as the schedule to the Act; and lastly, that we should make a payment of £ 20,000 a year till that sum was wiped off. Sir, Ido not want to get further into debt in reference to this claim. I want the ordinary Revenue of the Colony to pay it off, but at the same time I want toask the Imperial Government to deal with us in the same way that we should deal ourselves with a debtor in a private transaction, and let us pay it off by instalment. We believe, Sir, that this proposal will meet fair consideration by the Imperial Government. We believe that Her Majesty’s Government, when they see that we desire to evade no liability that properly belongs to us,will not peremptorily demand an immediate payment of the whole sum, which after the sacrifices we have already made as colonists, in support of the Queen’s authority, and after our willingness to contribute liberality to Sir George Grey’s Native plan, would be a very heavy burden upon our resources. Wc believe that they will not drive us to the necessity of raising another Loan, and of damaging our credit by going into the market to create a further permanent debt for repayment to the Imperial Treasury of a sum which is insignificant in the vast financial transactions of the Empire. Wc believe that they will allow us after the amount of the debt is settled by a referee named by themselves, to pay it off by instalments secured by an Act of the Assembly and not by a simple resolution of this House. But much depends upon the manner in which we shall ourselves state our case. I hope I have myself been able to do so in a temperate manner. Let it never he said that even while chafing under the sting of an undeserved reproach, we forgot for a moment the prompt assistance which England sent us in our time of need. Let us appeal, not to the charity, not to the compassion, of England, but to her ' justice anil generosity ; and Isay, Sir,that this Colony need not fear the result.

I now, Sir, place the following resolution in your hands:— “ That in the opinion of this Committee the charge upon the gross Revenue and Receipts arising from the Sale, Letting, Disposal, and Occupation of Waste Lands of the Crown within the several Provinces of Auckland, Wellington, Hawke’s Bay, and Taianaki, created by section V. of the Land Revenue Appropriation Act. 1858, be repealed from and after th«? first day of July, ISf^.”