General Assembly of New-Zealander.

New Zealander, Volume XVIII, Issue 1720, 3 September 1862, Page 4

General Assembly of New-Zealander.

[by OUR OWN REPORTER.J

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

WEDNESDAY, AUGUST IStii. The Speaker took the chair at 5 o’clock. PETITION. Mr. O’ROIIKE presented a Petition from David Burn setting forth that lie had been twelve years editor of the Maori Messenger, and dismissed at a week s notice, the Government expressing their satisfaction with Ids services, and praying for some compensation. Petition received. PAPERS. The following papers were laid on the table; — Report of the land purchase department relative to the extinguishment of Native title in the Ahuriri District. Further papers relating to the reorganisation of Wanganui Militia. Papers respecting New Zealand Government agency in London. Papers from the Secretary of State for the Colony to His Excellency the Governor relative to address ol condolence to Her Majesty on the occasion ot the death of II lI.H. the Duchess of Kent. Return of copies of all correspondence relative to the Native reserves in the towns of Dunedin and Port Chalmers. SUPREME COURTS IN NATIVE DISTRICTS. Mr. FITZGERALD, with reference to the following notices,— “To ask the Native Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to bring in any BUI tor assimilating the proposed District liunauga system, to the Provincial system ot the rest of the Colony, by the formation of Native Provinces.

“ To ask the Native Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to bring in any Bill for enabling the Supreme Court to trv cases in Native Districts pending the formation of Jury and Grand Jury Lists in such Districts. “ To ask the Native Minister whether it is the intention of the Government to constitute separate Electoral Districts wholly or principally inhabited by Natives and to give a franchise to the inhabitants of those Districts which shall enable them to elect members to this House or to Provincial Councils, on the same principle as that in which it is proposed to give a representative to miners in gold fields,”

said he hail had a conversation with the Native Minister, and as it appeared to he better for the public service that he should abstain from putting questions 1 ami for the present, as, the subject being under the consideration of his Excellency's .advisers, it could he better answered in a few days. lie therefore simply asked No. 2. It was well known that cases had occurred of considerable importance, in which the Supreme Court was unable to act owing to the want ol a jury list in Native Districts. The lion. Mr. HULL replied, that a Hill had been prepared by the late Ministry, which would be taken up by the present Government, and as soon as possible brought before the House, and, together with another Bill, would meet the dilliculty. FINANCE. The lion. COLONIAL TREASURER moved that this House will to-morrow go into Committee of Ways and Means, and to take into consideration the supply to bo granted to Her Majesty. He would then make his financial statement. Motion agreed to. J.AN’I) POLICY OF THE tJOVEKNMENT. The hon. Mr. DOMETT informed the House, is he intimated ho would yesterday, that a Bill hail been prepared, embodying the views of the Government upon this subject, and of the sale of their lands hy the Natives, and he hoped the Native Minister won't! move for leave to bring it in to m Trow or next day. The principles of the Bill resembled in several points the Bill proposed hy the late Ministry. He need hardly remind the House that the Ministers did not consider themselves to stand in the position of living absolutely bound to bring in any new policy at ail. I’heir business under present circumstances was simply to carry out .Sir George Grey’s policy; though whenever they thought it should be altered or amended in any way, they intended of course to oiler their advice to the Governor, to make such amendment or alterations, always maintaining, however, the position they had taken up, that, while they had a right to advise, they did not assume the power of actual decision: because tb.it would necessarily carry with it the responsibility for the policy so decided on, a responsibility which they should not take, because clearly it was not their duty to the country to be answerable for the means of extricating the Colony from the difficulties it had got into under a government of the Natives, carried on from home by a representative of the Crown. But to return to the Bill, he believed it would he universally acknowledged, as appeared from all the Reports cm Sir G. Grey’s plan, that the greatest source uf the distrust entertained towards the Government by tin* Natives arose from the suspicion which they had of its intentions with respect to their lands, a suspicion which it was also admitted had arisen in a very great degree from the Governments maintaining its sole right of pre-emption. That policy every one seemed to allow had failed, and indeed it might be argued, that it had brought about the very disturbances with the natives which it was principally adopted with the intention of preventing. The general feeling therefore was that that principle ought to be abandoned, as the Bill of the late Ministry proposed. The present Government however had carried out the principle of their Bill a little further than the other did, because they thought that when making a concession, it was best to make it without reserve, freely and lolly, and they proposed therefore to acknowledge absolutely the proprietary rights and title of the Natives to the lands they hold by native custom. (Hear, hear.) Government proposed to give them the power of ascertaining their titles for themselves, and for this purpose they intended to institute Native Courts with an European presiding, which Courts shall have the power of issuing certificates of title, having the power of Crown Grants, in enabling the natives to dispose of their lands to whomsoeverthey pleased, (cheers). The only reservations would he a power to the Government to make reserves in certain cases where the natives might be tempted to part with the whole of their lands, which reserves would he made their inalienable inheritance. The Government did not think this ease very likely to occur, though it was feared by the Governor that it might, and accordingly at his desire they inserted this power in their Bill. The other limitation, if it could he called so, was a declaration that all contracts made before the issue of the certificates should be null and void. With these limitations the Governor fully agreed to the course proposed, and was willing to leave the question of responsibility as it stood before. Of course they could not have pressed this measure on the Governor, if he had been disinclined to adopt it, without incurring the whole responsibility of it, but the Governor having fully acquiesced in it, the responsibility remained as it was. The measure proposed was broader and fuller than that of their predecessors in olliee, going in a bolder way to the root of the evil, and in concessions ma le, would have more chance ol attaining the desired effect. 1 be grace of the concession would not be marred by any suspicious reservation or overcautious limitation. A measure bad been prepared bv the late ministry lor organizing a Military force, which the Government intend to proceed with. Although the name did not denote so much, he meant to proceed with it as it would enanle the Governor to establish a kind of Police luce, to he mounted and armed when necessary, composed of mixed Europeans and Natives. A force of this kind, similar to the Irish Constabulary Force, would be one of the best means that could be adopted to settle disturbed districts without (he employment of regular troops ; and tb's measure seeming to he intended to establish such a force, which lie knew was part of the Governor’s policy, the Government would take that measure up, and introduce it in a few days. There wasalsn another measure of the late Government relating to the Supreme Court, referred to a few minutes ago by the Native minister, which, with some material alterations, they would proceed with. 1 hese were all measures ol conciliation, except, perhaps, the Constabulary force, which w. s, however, such at all events, a> to tend to the establishment ol taw and order, and, together with the establishment of settlements on the outskirts of the old settlers, would bo, he thought, tim best pacificatory measures they could take under

present circumstances. He would shortly be prepared with a Bill to ask the House for the loan of a million, and lie had made enquiries, the result of which showed that some useful immigrants with that view, ot protecting the settlers, could be introduced into the country. He hoped these measures Would be satisfactory to the House, and would meet with Its support. Mr. FITZGERALD asked if the Government would place on the table to-morrow, the resolutions they intended to prOpese with reference to the Duke of Newcastle’s despatch, be'eause what had just fallen from the hnn. member was directly opposite to both wlnt has been written by the Governor to the Duke of Newcastle, ahd by the Duke to the Governor. The lion. Mr. DOMETT replied that they would not be able to do so till Friday. The House adjourned at 7 o'clock.

THURSDAY, AUGUST Urn, 1802 The House met at 12 o’clock. RETURN OF CORRESPONDENCE.

Mr. STAFFORD, in moving for copies of Correspondence between the Government and Officers of the Colonial Forces, relative to distinctions conferred by Her Majesty on account of Military Services iu New Zealand, in'which the Colonial Forces were engaged along with Her Majesty’s Regular Iroops—said, that when the correspondence in question was before the House, hon. members might consider whether it might not he fining (or the House to express some opinion with respect to the position, as to distinctions of merit of those Colonial Forces which served, or might be called upon to serve along with Her Majesty’s regular troops, in respect of what the colony has already done. The Duke of Newcastle was under a great misconception if he believed that the people of the colony had not already made great sacrifices, in providing forces in support of Her Majesty’s authority. Not only had portions of the inhabitants of the colony, generally, conic forward, hut iu one province every adult male, down to lads of sixteen, had for the last two and a half years been fulfilling, and liable under martial law, to fulfil every duty of a soldier, which the officer in command of Her Majesty’s troops might call upon I them to perform. How they had performed their duties, the House well knew, not only as to garrison duties, without the shelter of sentry boxes, or even great coats on night guards, for a considerable time, hut in action in the field, cither alone, or with the regular troops (hear). With respect to their conduct iu action, it was, after Waircka and Mahoetahi, unnecessary to speak at length, but one characteristic distinguished them, and was entitled to special notice, it was that they never deserted their killed or wounded comrades in the field (hear). From Waireka, which was the first occasion they were under fire, and where they held their position alone, although short of ammunition, after the rest of the forces engaged had retired, —• to the last engagement they had always defended and brought off their wounded or dead comrades, and by so doing, had stimulated and maintained their spirit and dash as an armed force in favourable contrast, to what on many occasions had been the conduct of other forces; for nothing was calculated more to take the heart out of an armed force, than the feeling that if they were hurt, even temporarily, in action, they might he left by their comrades to the perils which it was well known often held wounded men left on the field of battle. If, therefore, colonial forces behaved well, and underwent equal danger and hardships as the regular troops of the empire, the Imperial authorities might fairly he asked to consider whether distinctions might not be at times awarded to them by the Crown, whose subjects they were, and the sacrifices which the Secretary of State for the Colonies called upon them to make, thus somewhat stimulated by a share ot the rewards given by the Crown to subjects living in other portions of the empire (hear). MAJOR RICHARDSON would make a few remarks with reference to the stigma cast on the military by the hon. member. There were times when it was the duty of the commanding officer to prevent the men stopping to save n wounded comrade because of the danger sometimes incurred by so doing. He believed that the affair alluded to by the hon. member was in obedience fo specific command. Mr. STAFFORD disavowed any intention of saying anything which should he construed into a charge of cowardice on the part of the British soldiery. The motion was agreed to, KEPOUT OF COMMITTEE. Mr. CARLETON brought up an interim report from I ho Standing Orders Committee, with reference to the limitation of time for presenting petitions on private grievances. chamberlain’s petition. Mr. CARTER moved “that the petition of William Edinborough Chamberlain, presented by the mover, he referred to the Private Grievance Committee.” He said that the petitioner was a very trustworthy settler, and his case should be taken into consideration. Mr. COLENSO would just remark tine if the petition referred to was sent to the Prime Grievance Committee, it would he the signal for ilmus.uids of the same discription being presented next session. The petitioner should wait quietly as many others were doing, where much larger sums of money were involved. This was the first petition of the sort, but he believed that next session the Private Grievance Committee would be inundated with similar ones. Mr. FOX would support the motion, us lie thought the petitioner should have his case taken info consideration by (lie House. Mr. CARTER said that the claim of the petitioner was a serious one. He had applied to the Resident Magistrate, and his claim was admitted to he just, but when he applied for an execution he could not obtain it. Motion agreed to. UPTURN OP CORRESPONDENCE. Mr. JOLLIE moved, pursuant to notice, “ for a copy of all communications addressed to the late or the present Governor by Mr. Justice Johnston, relating to the execution of his functions as Commissioner, appointed by the letters patent of May 28, 1861, for the purpose of determining any differences arising ‘ among members of the Ngatinwa tribe who may claim proprietary rights iu the land taken possession of by Her Majesty’s forces at Taranaki,’ pursuant to the terms on which His Excellency Governor Browne accepted their submission.” The NATIVE MINISTER believed that nothing even of a formal character, existed with reference to the subject, hut, if there did, it would lie forthcoming. A formal amendment was made in the motion, and it was agreed to. REMISSION OF SENTENCES. Mr. FITZGERALD moved, pursuant to notice, “fora return of all cases in which the sentences of criminals have been remitted in whole, or in part, by His Excellency the Governor, since flic first of January, 1860, so far as the same can he given: together with the correspondence relating to each ease.” He briefly explained his reasons for making the motion. Some discussion ensued, in which Messrs. Ward, Stafford, Gillies, Fox, and Fitzgerald, took part. The motion was finally agreed toBURN’S PETITION. Mr. O’RORKE moved that the petition of David Burn lie referred to the Private Grievance Committee. After some remarks from Messrs. Stafford and 8011, the motion was agreed to. THE FINANCIAL STATEMENT. | Mr. Bell’s Financial Statement, which occupied almost four hours in its delivery, is postponed at his own request, to enable him to revise the figures of our reporter’s notes.] NOMINATION OF SUPERINTENDENTS’ BILL. Mr. FI I’ZGERALD, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said he need not occupy the House long, the question being one that had been so widely and thoroughly discussed in the Colony during the last few years, and proceeded to give a history of the reasons why the Bill had been introduced now. Early in the session, lie happened in the course of a debate to drop a few expressions in favour of nominated Superintendents, and when he sat down several hon. members came to him and said “ We had not the least idea yon wished to have nominated Superintendents,—why that is what everybody wants;” and they desired him to move in the mutter, which he declined to do till he know more fully the opinion of the House upon it. But in the meantime the hon. member for New Plymouth put a resolution on the paper asking the House to declare itself in favour of nominated Superintendents, which ho (Mr. F.) asked the hon. member to withdraw, thinking that it might he possible not merely to pass a resolution hut to make a complete change in the law this session. He thought, however, that it would not he fair to run a Bill through the two Houses in the present session, as the inhabitants of the different parts of the colony would have no information of it, and consequently lose their right of petitioning against it. After some consideration, therefore, lie thought a Bill such as the present would meet both objects. He had always Celt that there was something very wrong at ihc basis of the Constitution of this country, not only with respect to the powers of the General Assembly hut of the Provincial Councils also, in that they should tic aide themselves to pass measures affecting their own constitution. 'Phis was a grave constitutional fault which would lead to trouble in future, for the parly in power might, by passing mi Act at one particular moment, confirm and cpniinnc its yy/n power; tq the dotrirgept and eve|qß}qr, <ff tip;

influence of what maj be a few months alter the opinion of the majority of the country. The States ot America, with the most democratic Constitution in the world, had no power to alter their own Constitution,— but if any alteration may be wanted they must go back to that from which their power was derived the people; and he felt that in making a change this House ought to retire on the people themselves, and give them the power of expressing their views. He had thought this on several occasions when he had seen representation Bills passed by Provincial Councils, in doing which they had the power of giving the whole political power of the country into one class or another by the mere alteration of districts and the number of representatives. Unless this were a popular Bill, it would he wholly inoperative; it could not possibly do any harm, could not possibly take from the people any power which they possess or fancy they possess; and in making this change it was important to persuade them of that. The Bill was a very simple one, proposing to enact that Superintendents should be norn mated by the Governor, with a few clauses to accommodate that provision to existing law. The 7th clause enacted that a Superintendent should hold office only five years. This limit was desirable, because it might he desiiablc to remove the officer nominated without passing on him anything like a slur or censure. A further object of the Bill was to provide for the appointment of Deputy Governors. It would he a question for the people of any Province whether a Deputy Governor should be appointed to it; but this Hill would prevent the anomaly and absurdity of a Deputy Governor and a Superintendent exisliug at the same time. The Sih clause, it had been pointed out to him, was in contravention of the third clause of the Constitution Act, in saving that when a Deputy Governor was appointed the ofliee of Superintendent should cease. That, however, was merely a theoretical objection, which he proposed to meet by the substitution of the words “shall he exercised by the said Superintendent or Deputy Governor.” Supposing they were now for the' first time called on to make Provinces and appoint Superintendents for those Provinces, he put it to the House whether they would fall hack on the system of nomination or of election. When the Constitution Act was passed iu 1852, he, with the late Mr. Godley—a man of the greatest political foresight—and others in England, felt, and the opinion was shared with few exceptions by all the leading men of this colony, that a grave mistake had been made in placing the nomination of Superintendents in the hands ot the people. They knew that when the Constitution Act was framed it was intended to have made the appointment of Superintendents similar to that of Governors, &c., as was still apparent from the other clauses, which were wholly inconsistent with the idea that the head of the Executive of the Province should he elected by the people, creatingan anomalous office never before established under British rule. The hon. member next argued against the idea held by some that the Provincial Legislatures were intended to be merely municipal bodies with only municipal powers; for in the Constitution Act the powers given to the Provincial Council were conveyed in exactly the same words as to this House, though there were certain reserved subjects upon which the Provincial Councils were not permitted to act. [The hon. member then pointed out the wide distinction between a municipality and what might he called a Government ] With the exception ot those thirteen subjects he argued, the Provincial Legislatures were intended to have the same power as the General Legislature, No advantage had been gained by departing from the ordinary mode of Government of British colonies, because the people had gained no more power by it, hut rather lost; for a Superintendent when once in office could virtually maintain himself in office if he chose to make use of the means to do so. He next then pointed out the difference between election to a legislative office and an elective office. If a man agreed with him in his opinions as to what ought to be done he could vote for him to represent his opinion in a Legislature; but in an election for an executive office, what they wanted to know was the candidates capacity for governing, whether lie w r as an honest man, and possessed of peculiar administrative power —on which points the electors must be profoundly ignorant. Before an English minister attained to power, he underwent a most perfect competitive examination in his long course of trial as a member of the House; but the man who appeared on the hustings for the first time as a candidate for the Superintendency, what could they know about his power of administration and honesty? These arguments had been long working in the minds of the people, and they were dissatisfied with the present system, for, he repeated, they did not gain power, but absolutely lost it, because, as he had said before, the only mode in which the people could gain power, and the only real power they could exercise was by their determined, long continued, j and well considered will, constantly expressed—a power which they sacrificed by the election system to a momentary expression of will under any passing influence that might happen to he brought to bear upon them at the time. Then camo conflicts between the officers so elected and the Council. The Council said “ We will do so and so, for we arc the representatives of the people;” and the Superintendent replied “ So do I represent the people, and it shall not be so.” One great fault of the Constitution Act was that the Superintendent had no power to dissolve a Provincial Council, or a machinery provided by which a more wide spread intelligent feeling he brought into the Council. Again, the Superintendents were charged with the expenditure of a very large portion of the revenues of the country, giving him an enormous power of rewarding votes out of the public funds, which a legislature could not directly do. If he wished to spread bribery and corruption throughout the land, he would adopt precisely this elective Superintendent plan. He was not referring to anything that had taken place, nor did he wish to say anything unkind to any member in this House. So long as the Superintendent existed, it was their duty to maintain his power to the utmost; but, although elections have been, comparatively speaking, pure hitherto, they must not judge of what had gone on already, but by what it would in future come to if the svstem remained. He did not know if his honor the Superintendent of Canterbury was so attached to his position as to be willing to risk his character to retain it; but he would say this that if he (Mr. F.) were iu that position he would defy the whole Province of Canterbury to get him out of it. (Laughter.) With £200,000 a year to spend amongst a population of 16,000, he would like to see the man that would get him out of that office when he once got in. (Great laughter.) He did not wish to insinuate that his hon. friend would take such a coarse, for he believed that if he could get out of his present situation he would do so. He did not believe that hon. member would do anything dishonourable; but he certainly had the power to keep himself in if he wished to do it. ( ' No, no.”) Well lie (Mr. F.) thought so, and he would undertake to do it. (Great laughter.) The people had lost power by this system, and, therefore, if this House could give them the opportunity to alter the system when they pleased, it would be justified in doing so. Another important point was that at first this country was not one Colony, hut six—six settlements which were as much distinct Colonies as any Colonies that England had founded, having no communication or interests with one another, no common machinery of Government, and no common objects in view, founded, in fact, upon different interests and for different objects. The Constitution Act was intended to meet this difficulty: and it did meet it; but in the passing of that there were two questions to he considered—the one the giving of power to the people, and the other the giving of local powers to each of these distinct divisions of it, for it was most justly felt that if they placed supreme power in any one point, created one great centre of Government, there would he a tendency to central expenditure there to the detriment of the other portions of the islands. Of these two things, therefore, it was far more important that the powers of Government should be localized than that power should be given to the people, because they knew perfectly well that if they carried on the colonization of the country, the people must acquire power in time. Now this object, he contended, had been in a gieat measure frustrated by the system of electing Superintendents, by creating an authority in each oi these local Governments, not a part of, but distinct from, and which must he in many cases opposed to the General Government of the country. There was hardly a Superintendent in the Colony who had not been at one time at loggerheads with the General Government. The General Government would not trust powv to authorities over which they had no control, and therefore was obliged to hold in its own hands the powers which it would most gladly delegate to local authority and exercise through air agent on the spot. He had now, he thought, given sufficient reasons to ask the House to vote for the second reading of this Bill. The evils to which he had alluded had grown to such an enormous head, that they could only be satisfied by dismembering the Colony, and had resulted in the separation movement of Otago, which was not a mere cry, not a desire for Government expenditure—but something real was wanted. They wanted that a digger should not go to the Superintendent about anything, and be told, ‘ My good man, you arc perfectly right, hut I have nothing to do with it,’ and then when lie had found out the proper department, go to an officer of the General Government who hail to write to Auckland about it. Otago was able to maintain a Lieut.-Governor of its own. and it was a place to which he should look to take advantage of the feature of this Bill in which the

powers of the Superintendent might be vested in a 1 Lieutenant Deputy Governor. If they were true and t rea) in y.’hitt {hey not want separation

for the sake of making the whole Middle Island. administer to their needs and to their dignity, but for the sake of Otago itself, they would be thoroughly satisfied with the provisions of this Act. In conclusion, whether it were as a matter of theory to reduce the Constitution Act to the form in which it came from the theoretical politicians who drafted the Act; whether for averting the evils which would come on this Colony if the present system were maintained; or whether for the purpose of meeting the particular movement springin"- up at Otago,—the House could not do better than to°pass the Bill of which he Lad the honor to move the second reading. Mr. WATT briefly seconded the motion, going into an account of the origin of this part of the Constitution. and stating that it was owing to the change in the English Government from Earl Grey to Sir John Pakington that we had elective Superintendents in the Constitution Act. He also drew the attention of the House to the fact that this was not the first time the subject had been mooted in the New Zealand Legislature, for in the other House last session a resolution was’ arrived at “ that the appointment of Superintendents by election is attended with grievous inconvenience, and is inconsistent with the proper working of the Government.” He had himself only the other day proposed to move a resolution on the subject (which lie withdrew at the instance of the hon. member for Ellesmere), but was actuated by no political provincial motives relating to Taranaki, the present Superintendent of which, and also his predecessor, cordially agree with him (Mr. W.) in the views he had taken of this matter. . Major RICHARDSON referred to this Bill as another instance of tendency towards Superintendents prevalent this session. It appeared he was to suffer first, and he hoped he would die with becoming dignity. He really was not aware that he had such powers as the hon. mover said. With the Executive checks he had had the honor to introduce into Otago it would be imjiossilile for him to do a single dishonest or arbitrary act, (‘‘Oh, oh,”) and he did not know how in any single instance he could effect his own return, even if he desired it; and he had done all he possibly could to prevent it. Ihc hon. member for Ellesmere appeared to draw a distinction between the executive and legislative powers of the Superintendent. He (Major R.) held that the Superintendent was an essential part of the legislature. (Hear.) Without his concurrence no enactment became law. His own Province the other day was very anxious to remove him, but he put his veto on it, recommending to the General Government that it was not desirable for the public service. He saw in this Bill a great centralising tendency. He wanted to know which was the Governor in this 'Bill, believing himself that it would be the Governor in Council. If the Superintendent were to perform his duties “ in accordance with instructions received from time to time from the Governor,” the local Government of the Province eould have no influence whatever. He could not see what the Legislative Council and House of Represcnmtives should have to do with the removal of a Superintendent. The hon. mover thought that honesty of purpose and administrative power would he best secured by leaving the appointment to the Governor. B t howcould they tell political influence would not be used there. The Deputy Governor he was sure could not possibly act with Provincial institutions, and lie looked in fact upon this Bill as an attempt to destroy Provincial institutions. He knew the time would come when all these Provinces would he merged into one united Government, hut till that time came there was no need to impair the usefulness of the Provincial Governments. He moved that the Bill lie read a second time this day six months

Mr. FOX seconded the amendment pro forma.

Mr. MOOIUIOUSE thought the House ought not to pass such a Bill as this without its being first fully discussed in the different Provinces, and he could not support it till he had personal communication with his constituents, and had a distinct declaration of their approval of it. Suppose the present system changed, what certainty had they that there would not be corruption to an equal extent—what certainty that the nominated Superintendent would refrain fom using corrupting influences to gain him a majority in the Council? The hon. member (Mr. Moorhouse) then referred to the disrespect which it had been the custom to show to Superintendents in this House, and the tendency to stifle them which had existed, and said this Bill was simply the offspring of a riotous desire for change, which would have a mischievous effect on the people, who would not be inclined to receive it well, and think it a good thing because it was forced upon them. He therefore strongly advised his Lon friend, after the discussion, to withdraw the Bill and v introduce it at a more fitting season. All the good would follow the nomination of gentlemen with whom: the country was not acquainted, might result from tile election of Superintendents to hold office either during good behaviour or for a much longer term —at least ten years; or the people might he requested to nominate six men, of whom the Governor (not in Council) should choose one. He looked on this Bill as assisting the central Executive to exercise gross influence over all the country. He defended the honesty and capability of members of Provincial Councils, and argued with reference to a General Government Executive, that large experience and extensive education were no guarantee for honesty. All were men alike. It this Bill should be passed, the Governor alone must be made responsible for the nomination, and the House of Representatives and Legislative Council must have nothing to say as to his removal. He would rather encourage the preservation to the Provincial Council of the power of justifying by its votes a dismissal by the Governor. Another course that might be taken instead uf this Bill was that the Provincial Council should nominate half a dozen men, and the Governor select one; or let the Governor nominate a number of men, out of whom the people of the Province or the Council of the Province should choose one. All these courses were compromises at best. He objected to anv legislation at present, but if the House was determined to legislate, these were better than the Bill as it at present stood. He did not like the principle of refering important changes to the Provincial Councils in this way, and for this reason, that if this reference were made now, all the Provincial Councils might, lor anything he knew to the contrary, pass a resolution iejecting the measure, but in six months time there might be such a misunderstanding between a Coancil and its Superintendent as would lead to the Council's committing itself to a determination in tavour of the nomination system. A mischievous exchange might thus be effected to indulge a pique on the part of the Council. He hoped the House would wait before it committed itself to a course which it afterwards might regret having taken. Mr. CKACROFT WILSON, C.8., in a humorous speech expressed his intention to vote for the Bill, as a means of putting a stop to the desperate antagonism that had existed between different elements ot the Government of this country since he adopted it, an cud which every member of this House should wish to accomplish. Mr. O’NEILL would vote for the second reading because he saw in it a reasonable hope of getting rid of what had become a common nuisance in the Province he represented. He further expressed the opinion that a Superintendent ought not to have a seat in this House. Superintendents had spoken to-night as it they had a vested interest in the Superintendency. He questioned if the electors took the same view as the man who would stand up here and say, my Province and my Council. They might think so, aud with some reason, for he believed it was impossible to root a man out of the Superintendency when he had set his mind on keeping in. The expenditure of heaps ot money gave the opportunity tor lots of corruption. The Superintendent ought, he considered, to be elected out of and by the Provincial Council, for it was a difficult matter in Auckland Province to secure men of standing for the Provincial Council on account ot the difficulty of securing harmony between them and the Superintendent. He therefore supported this Bill, believing that by brimring round some better mode of appointing Superintendents it would he productive ot more peace in the different Provinces than ordinarily existed When a Superintendent happened to be elected by a .minority of the Province, as he would when there were three candidates, it was impossible for him to act in a proper spirit with his Provincial Council, who would naturally represent the whole Province. A further recommendation of the Bill was that the unpleasantness that occurred at the election of a Superintendent would be put a stop to. Mr. COLENSO thanked the lion, member for Ellesmere for bringing this forward, though it was not i exactly the right time ; Lut he would not he able to vote for it. He was sorry to see Superintendents speaking on this measure. He agreed with the last speaker that Superintendents, however appointed, should he disqualified from silting in this House. Could not the Constitution Act he modified without a Bill of tins kind, by electing them from Provincial Councils? They were so elected in the Province ho represented, and it had worked well. If the people still wished to fliold this power, might it not also be made more available by electing the Superintendent by a much higher franchise than members of Provincial Councils? Superintendents should not he available for re-election, he thought. If the Superintendents had power to dissolve their Councils, it might sometimes have been dissolved in a week from coming together. The fault was rather, he thought, that it should have been imperative on tiie Government to remove a Superintendent when obnoxious to a large majority of the Council. When Native Provinces were spoken of the other day they were to he elected; but, ot course, if others wevo uniiiinated. they would bo so too.

thought there should be a provision in the Bill that the Superintendent should be a settler, or, at all events, that no military man not a settler in the Province should be appointed. lie also disagreed with the clause providing that a Superintendent should act according to instructions received from the Governor; nor could he agree that the legislative Council or the House of Representatives should have anything to do with the removal of a Superintendent, but thought that a petition of three-fourths (not two-thirds) ot the Provincial Council should be sufficient to remove a Superintendent. Mr. THOMSON felt it his duty to oppose the Bill, if it was only for the reason that the Bill by 6th clause deprived the Superintendent of his legislative functions, and it also placed the Superintendent under the tyranny of the Provincial Council, depriving him of the power of appealing to the people. The elected Superintendent was the representative ot the people in the aggregate; but this Bill would give representatives of small constituencies the power of swamping large constituencies. What guarantee had they that Governors would succeed any better in the appointment of Superintendents than the people? Harmony would be no more likely to be gained at all; and he could not, therefore, support this Bill. Mr. WARD said the lion, member (Mr. Fitzgerald), was actuated by two reasons in bringing forward this Bill. One being, that an elective head to an elective body is an anomaly, and must be got rid of: the other being, that a nominative Superintendent is much better than an elective one. He has made a mistake when he says we must not look to the present circumstances, but to what may in future arise. It would be wrong to supplant Superintendents (after a trial of nine years) after a discussion of one week. If they wished to alter the Constitution they should do it by little and liule, and not forget the way in which the English Constitution grew up. Was there any proof that elective Superintendents did their duty unsatisfactorily ? or was there any proof that nominative Superintendents would do their duties more satisfacfactorily? Do we approach this subject from the point of view, that the Superintendents had not perfonned their duties satisfactorily? Was it not a fact, that in all the original Provinces the same Superintendents have been more than once elected. Is it not apparent from the fact, that the form of election gives to each Province the governor which satisfies that Province, lb- was sure that the experience of the past nine years was so far in favor of elective Superintendents. When we wish to change one sort of an officer for another sort of officer, we should consider well the causes of that change, and be sure that beneficial results would spring from it. What is the nominative Superintendent to be, that he is to be belter than the elective one? There was this disadvantage in the change, there was the chance of persons being nominated who are not accustomed to legislate. Is it intended that the various departments of a Province is to be governed by this nominated Superintendent, or are there to be departmental heads? Is the government of a Province to bo n reality or a sham? We know that we live under an English Constitution; but if we give the control of our

affairs to persons appointed without our consent or

approval, what cheek have we upon its abuse. The case admits of being resolved into an absurdity, which ever way we look at it. if you still believe that a local government is the one required for a Province, you are committing the colony to an absolute denial of it by the Kill. If you say they are to have the same powers as an elective Superintendent,you are removing from the Province those powers which you before have said are to be left with the Provinces. The question is not whether there are objections to the present mode of government; there will and there must be objections to any system while there is one colony, and yet are nine.' If you want good government, you must to a certain extent give up the idea of colonizing from nine different points. By leaving the election of a .Superintendent to the people, they arc sure to elect a man who has some interest in the Province; mid it is better that a man should he placed there who has some interest in the Province than a man who has none (hear, hear). He would dread to see the day when, in place of having an elective man knowing the requirements of the Province Miperintendent, we should have a stone, a stick, or a puppet, lie advocated refraining from tinkering with the Constitution. The real machinery for the country was the Superintendent and the Provincial Council. By interfering with that machinery we stop the progress which it has begun. A great constitutional change like the one proposed should take months to consider.

Mr. HARRISON said the Bill appeared to him to

, be a retrograde piece of legislation, and one which t nould be distasteful to the people, besides taking from *>hem the beneficial exercise of their judgment and rare to put the right man in the right place. Such an important change should not he proposed unless strongly urged by the people themselves. He should, therefore, vote against it. Mr. CARLETON then moved the adjournment of the debate till Tuesday, which was carried after some little discussion. LAW PRACTITIONERS* BILL. The hon. the ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved the second reading of the Law Practitioners’ Bill, based, he said, on the principles of free trade Mr. FOX made a few remarks, and Mr. Gillies having replied, the Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow. THE COURT OF APPEAL BILL was also read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow. miners’ franchise bill. The hon. Mr. GILLIES, in moving the second reading of this Bill, said, it must be apparent that while they could not ignore the right of the mining interest in this House, on the other hand they ought not to give them a privilege enjoyed by no other class. He, therefore, proposed to take away the full right of franchise which they at present enjoyed. This Bill, therefore, repealed the Miners’ Franchise Act, 1860, and lie would leave them the right to vote for election of Provincial Councils, hut not for the Superintendents, or they might be able to swamp every other interest in the Province. In exchange for this deprivation, however, he would give them the advantage of not being obliged to register, but having a right to vote on presentation of his miner’s right held for a given time. But when holding the ordinary qualification he would, of course, on registering be entitled to vote at all elections. At the suggestion of Mr. FITZGERALD, the debate was adjourned till to-morrow. otaoo representation bill. The second reading of this Bill was also postponed till to-morrow, as depending on the other, adjournment. The House then adjourned at a quarter past 11 o’clock. FRIDAY, AUGUST 15th. The Speaker took the chair at 12 o’clock. petitions. Major RICHARDSON presented a petition from John Russell, of the Province of Auckland, lute of Invercargill, praying for relief against the decision of a Court of law. Petition being informal was not received, Mr. F. I). BELL presented a petition from certain inhabitants of Southland. Petition received. the estimates. Mr. BELL said, in accordance with what ho had stated yesterday, he had taken steps to have the estimates as prepared by his predecessor printed and had them distributed to-day. The course he intended to pursue in this matter was to advise his Excellency to send down a message or two messages separating the part of the expenditure for Provincial Governments from that part for the General Government, he would then propose “ That the House go into Committee on the Estimates, taking first the general charges on the General Government and then go hack to the permanent charges of the civil list. He hoped that mode would bo satisfactory and that it would enable members to get them.

NEW STANDING OUDEU. Mr. FOX, on behalf of Mr. Carleton, moved the adoption of the following as a Standing Order of this House: —At the commencement every Session a Standing Committee shall he appointed, to which shall be referred all Petitions relating to Private Grievances; and no such Petition shall be received by the House after thirty days from the meeting thereof, unless such grievance shall have arisen during the Session. Ihe motion was agreed to.

CROWN I.ANDB BILL. The time for the Select Committee on the Crown Lauds Bill, to bring up their report was extended until Friday next.

CROWN GRANTS TO NATIVE RILL. Upon the order of the day being read for the second reading of this Bill Mr. DILLON BELL said he had really to apologise to the House for not being able to ask the House to proceed with this Bill. They were in great difficulties with regard to the printing-this Bill ought to have been in the hands of members yesterday. He moved that the second reading of this Bill be made an order pf the day for Monday next.—Agreed to.

ADDITIONAL SITTING DAY. Mr. BELL moved, and the motion was agreed to, “That this Hotiso at its rising today do adjourn tißtll MoßcUy at Hi o’clotsk#

BIRDS PROTECTION ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Mr. A. J. RICHMOND, in consequence of the 'absence of Mr. Stafford, moved “That the second reading of this Bill be made an order lor the next sitting day.”—Agreed to. LAW PRACTITIONERS BILL. On the motion of Mr. GILLIES, the House went into Committee for the further consideration of this Bill. Mr. O’ROUKE, in the absence of the Chairman of Committees (Mr. Carleton), was made Chairman. The Bill was reported with amendments. COURT OP APPEAL BILL. The House went into Committee for the further consideration of the Court of Appeal Bill. Some verbal amendments having been made, the Bill was reported with them. MINERS FRANCHISE ACT AMENDMENT BILL, Mr. GILLIES moved, “ That this Bill be now read a second time.’’ The motion was agreed to and the Bill was ordered to be committed presently. OTAGO REPRESENTATION BILL. Mr, GILLIES moved, “ That the Otago Representation Bill be now read a second time.” lie explained that when the constitution was granted, representation was not given upon any one fixed principle. Still the population of a [dace must bo taken into consideration as a very great and important element in the distribution of representation. He thought it would bo admitted that it was manifestly unjust that Otago, with the largest population, should have the smallest share of representation. Last December the population of Otago was 27,000; if they took ten or twelve thousand away from that number as the mining population there would still remain 15,000 or 17,000. He thought such a large population was entitled to a larger number of members than five. Canterbury and Wellington with much smaller populations had each 8 or 9 members, and Taranaki with a still smaller population had 3 members. He merely professed by this Bill to give Otago an instalment such as no member would object to. He had no doubt that before long the whole question of representation of the Colony must he considered, and that representation be remodeled. (Hear, hear.) The Bill would give four additional members to Otago, two of them should be for the Gold Fields. The other two would be divided among the electors of Dunedin. It was proposed to divide Dunedin into two electorates, North and South, to give to the North the two existing members and to give the South the opportunity of electing two. Mr. O’NEILL would vote against the Bill, it would be better to postpone the consideration of the measure until they were prepared to deal with the whole question of representation. Mr. FITZGERALD thought that the alteration which had taken place in Otago made this measure very necessary. The only objection he had to it was to the second clause, which fixed the number of members of the House at 57. lie looked forward to having a number ofMaories returned to this House at no distant period. Mr. COLENSO considered the Bill a most reasonable one, and trusted there would he no opposition to it.

Mr. DICK was sorry to hear the hon. member for the Northern division raise any objection to this measure, he thought instead of exceptions being taken to it, they (the Otago members) would have been complimented upon being so reasonable in their demands.

Mr. A. J. RICHMOND thought that they should not fix the limit of the number £t 57 as the second clause proposed. Mr. WAKING TAYLOR also objected to the second clause, and recommended that a change should be made in it

Mr. J. C. RICHMOND hoped the Ministers would during the recess form some plan for more equal representation throughout the colony. If the valuable system known as Mr. Hare’s was taken into consideration it might bo brought into beneficial and practical operation in this colony.

Mr. GILLIES, in reply, said with regard to the second clause, there was a practical difficulty in the way of altering it. There is an Act which says this House shall consist of 53 members, that Auct must he altered, and when they altered it, they should say how many members the House shall consist of. He apprehended there must be some limit stated to the number of members. Perhaps the difficulty might be removed by inserting a clause that this Act may he altered or repealed during the session (hear, hear). The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed presently. The House then went into Committee on the Miners Franchise Bill, and the Otago Representation Bill. STEAM COSTAE COMMUNICATION. The House went into Committee of Supply for the consideration of the resolutions of the Select Committee on Communication. Mr. WARD moved the third resolution of the first interim report as follows: —“ That this Committee recommends the appropriation of a sum not exceeding £30,000 per annum, from Ist January 1804, for five years, as a contribution towards the colonial portion of a subsidy for such a service. Mr. BELL was confident that if the House agreed to the amount, he was confidenMhc colony would he able to pay it, commencing on the Ist January, 1804. The resolution was agreed to.

Mr. WARD then moved the adoption of the first resolution of the second interim report as follows; “That the requirements of the colony will not be fully satisfied with less than three Hues of Intercolonial Steam Service, viz., between Melbourne and the South, between Auckland and Sydney, and between Cook’s Straits and Sydney respectively.” He remarked that he was not of the same mind as the Committee on the mutter, in fact, he had never been in a Committee in which opinion was so divided. Some advocated that the service should he peculiarly postal and peculiarly commercial. The intention was to make the whole colony pay for the service so far as it was postal, and to make each particular part of the colony pay for the advantages such part receives commercially. The interests of the colony could not be served unless three lines of communication were kept up; viz., between Otago and Melbourne, between Cook’s Straits and Sydney, and between Auckland and Sydney. It was another thing, and not for him to say, whether the colony was in a position to do all that the select committee had reported desirable. He believed if they put their hands into their pockets now, they would be relieved from putting themselves into a position to pay three times as much more some years hence. Mr. RICHARDSON thought the word “ Otago.” should be substituted for the “South,” as the termini was expressed in the other case, it should he expressed in this.

Mr. W. WARING TAYLOR would like to know whether the Government had made up its mind on this question. The hon. DILLON BELL said the Seat of Governmeat was a question on which a Government could not be expected to have made up its mind. Mr. STAFFORD thought it would be objectionable to say that a steamer shall run to a certain place and stop there, as the hon, member for Dunedin proposed by ids amendment. He would suggest that there should be three lines of steamers, —between Auckland and the Australian ports. Cook’s Straits and the Australion ports; and between the Australian ports and the South, without fixing the termini. The lion. Mr. GILLIES,'said there was a principle in this resolution which he considered very objection able. He held that the House had no right to interfere in providing communication for commercial purposes. Their duly was to provide the necessary postal communication, while the resolution as it stood provided for postal and commercial purposes; and as full postal communication could bo given by two lines of steamers as by three. (No, no.) Ho repeated his statement. (Cries of Nelson.) The mail might certainly be delivered a day or two later at Nelson. (Mr. Stafford : four days,) In the case of Canterbury and Wellington, he believed they might be delivered even earlier, 'i he House had nothing to do with the commercial requirements of the country in considering the mail service, and would only be creating a grand monopoly for the contract steamers. Ho believed the maintenance ol three lines, was beyond the power of the colony, the cost would almost be £44,000. He contended that Provincial Governments would be able to obtain steam communication very much cheaper than the General Government would bo able to get it for them. The required sum was much too large to be placed on the estimates in face of the other heavy liabilities to which they were exposed. If the colony undertook this matter it would cost much more than if undertaken by the Provinces (No, no : have they done it yet cheaper.) They had been prevented by the General Government going into the field and bidding against them. The management of the Steam Service by the General Government had been from the first a'bungle, lie believed if one central line was maintained, and the mails then conveyed from the central point by the Provinces all the postal requirements of the colony would bo met with. Otago would require a line of its own, and would pet a steamer at a much cheaper rate than the General Government could. He admitted it was their interest to have the largest amount of postal communication, but providing for the commercial requirements of the colony was wrong in principle and voting money for that purpose was a waste of public money. He would not be doing justice to bis constituents if be did nut make this protest. It would be a gross injustice to too Province he represented to cause the people of , that Province to pay a largo proportion of the ureesgarj sum fw this service which they did net require.

| Mr. STAFFORD said the hon. member had no right to assume that there was any combination of the representatives of other Provinces to do an act of injustice towards Otago. He was sure every member was actuated in the fairest spirit. Mr. WOOD would ask the hon. member (Mr. Gillies) was o’ large steamer to be employed solely for the purpose of carrying the mails? Where they to say those steamers should take no cargo ? The Provinces could not make such arrangements for themselves in the matter of steam communication as the colony for them. Ho would point to the patent fact that the Province of Otago had failed to make any arrangements with Melbourne until his hon. friend, the late Post-master-General had to ncgociate it. The reason for this was, that companies preferred making contracts for different places, to making them for any one large portion. He would admit that the steam service as arranged by the late Postmaster General was unsatisfactory at the beginning, but defy any one to say they were unsatisfactory at the end (hear, hear). The service has been well, satisfactorily and completely carried out. They had had one central line, and it was well known how unsatisfactory that time was—it was abused throughout the Colony. Mr. GILLIES, explained he did not mean that they should have but one line. He thought they should have two lines, one to Auckland, and one to Cook’s Straits, hut had said with one central line to Cook’s Straits, with Provincial lines diverging oil from it, the same could he efficiently performed. Mr. WOOD said we had tried that one central line, and the people had felt the extreme disadvantage of it. All had complained. He should bo exceedingly sorry to see any ct angc made in the resolution. We now had a system which was satisfactory, and any interference with it would be for interference sake alone.

Mr. JOHN WILLIAMSON thought that the interests of any one Province should not be allowed to interfere with the arrangements on the General Government service as now existing, and he was sorry that the hon. member for Bruce should, forgetful of his duty to the Colony as a member of the Government, stand up in advocacy of a scheme which he fancied would he advantageous to his own Province. He (Mr. W.) contended that the service for the colony as a whole could only he efficiently performed by the General Government, and the House should take care that the service was provided for, so that no Province would have the power to prevent its being carried out. The fact of its being well known in England and in the other colonics that commercial men or travellers arriving at any port in New Zealand might visit the whole of the principal ports in a given time, would encourage commerce, and confer very great advantages in other respects on the colony. The hon. Mr. BELL said that as the official guardian of the public purse he could not agree with the reasoning of the hon. gentleman who had last spoken. It was of the greatest importance to know that there was one service which could be depended on. They had seen a line started and abandoned. Lines subsidized by Provincial Councils were liable to he stopped hy a change in the opinion of these Provincial Councils. He believed it was perfectly certain that a contract could he made by the General Government which would give to all the Provinces a hotter and cheaper communication than they could supply themselves with. He entirely denied that the Provinces had any right to complain of tiie way in which the general expenditure was apportioned. Supposing they had a right to deal with the ordinary revenue, this House had a perfect right to deal with the whole of the revenue, and the Provinces had no right to complain. He maintained that right inviolate. In these remarks he had spoken as Colonial Treasurer.

Mr. GILLIES would still maintain tiiat the House had nothing to do with providing communication for commercial interests. They were bound to provide for the postal requirements, and it such provision brought commercial advantages in its train, very good. In reply to the argument that the General Government could provide cheaper communication, he observed that the General Government paid Bs. Cd. per mile, whilst the Provincial Governments paid only iis. per mile.—[Mr. Ward: The contracts were already made the Government could not help it.] —The proposal was interfering with the free course of trade.

Mr. WILLIAMSON said he had always held the opinion he had now stated with regard to the advisability of tbo service being maintained by General rather than Provincial votes. In addition to reasons already urged, lie thought that the effect of competition by tbo Provinces singly or even in groups for steamboats to perform their respective services would be to raise rather than lower the cost to the whole colony. v

Major RICHARDSON then withdrew his amendment, and the question being put that this resolution he agreed to, the Committee divided as follows: Ayes ; Messrs. Ormond, Munro, G. Graham, .John Williamson, W. IV. Taylor, Harrison, James Williamson, C. J. Taylor, Butler, Colcnso, Watt, R. Graham, Cookson, O’Neill, J. (J. Richmond, Rhodes, Moorhouse, A. J. Richmond Stafford, Curtis, Wells, Bell, Jallie, Thomson, Mason, Russell, Weld, Mantell, Domett ami Ward,—30.

Noes: —Messrs. Dick, Fiuhcrbert, Fcathcrston, Ilfehardson and Gillies. —5. Mr. WARD moved the 2nd resolution as follows: “ That the Steam Service referred to in the foregoing resolution of the Committee he undertaken hy the General Government, and he borne on the general estimates.”

After some discussion, Mr. GILLIES moved as an amendment, that the following resolution he recommended in lieu of the foregoing ‘‘That the contract for the Northern and Southern lines be made on behalf of the General Govei'nment, and with its concurrence in the provisions of the contracts by the Provincial authorities of the Provinces of Auckland and Otago respectively. That such contracts once entered into he not altered or interfered with, except hy the joint consent of both the General and Provincial Governments, and that no steam contracts be made for a longer period than twelve months certain, with six months notice on either side of termination of contract.” The amendment, was withdrawn in favour of the following one proposed by Mr. DOMETT;—“ That in making any contract to carry out the steam postal service, the General Government shall avtil itself of the assistance of the Provincial Governments, and obtain if possible their concurrence of the same.” The amendment was agreed to.

The !i rd resolution was agreed to as follows: “ That communications should he maintained between the principal Provinces of the Colony four times a month, and between all the Provinces twice a month ; provided that the whole expense of such inter-provin-cial service do not exceed £20,001) per annum.

On motion of Mr, MOOKHOUSE, the following resolution was added to the report: —

“ That all future contracts with the owners of steam ships for the conveyance of Her Majesty’s mails shall he contracts extending oidy from year to year, terminable hy six months notice from either party to the other.” The resolution was agreed to without discussion, and the whole of the resolutions reported. IlillDS PROTECTION AMENDMENT ACT. On motion of Mr. STAFFORD, this Bill was read a second time. It met with a slight opposition from some members who looked upon its introduction as the thin edge of the wedge, opening the way for the enactment of the game laws. The Bill was committed, and slightly altered in some of its clauses. The House adjourned at 10 o’clock, MONDAY, AUGUST 18th. The Speaker took the chair at 12 o’clock. NEW MEMIIER. Mr. Cargill took the oath, and his seat for the District of Brace, Otago, PETITIONS. Mr. STAFFORD presented a Petition from John Baillie Williams relative to u question of disputed boundary. Petition received. Mr. WELD presented n Petition from Robert Park, surveyor, in the Province of Wellington, complaining that, after 20 years service, ho had been dismissed without notice. Petition read and received. MESSAGE FROM lIIS EXCELLENCY’. Message No. 2 was received from the Governor, enclosing a Bill to amend the “ Land Revenue Appropriation Act, 1858.” Bill read a first time, ordered to be printed, and to be read a second time to-morrow. LAND CLAIMS COMMITTEE. On motion of the lion. Mr. DILLON BELL, Mr. C. J. Taylor was added to the Land Claims Committee. suirley’s petition. Mr, COLENSO moved, That the Petition presented to this House from Henry and Thomas Shirley, of Tutackuri in Hawke’s Bay, he referred to the Committee of Private Grievances. Agreed to. The hon. Mr. DILLON BELL moved, For leave to bring in a Bill to remove the restrictions which now exist upon the sale and occupation of Native Lands in New Zealand, and made an explanation of the policy proposed similar to that recently made by the Colonial Secretary.

Bill read a first time, ordered to he printed, and to he read a second time on Tuesday,

THIS LAW J’ItACTITIONHUS HILL was, on the u.ofiou uf Mr, MLjUUMj valid H third time, nnd passed.

TUB COURT OB APPEAL HILL was also read a third time, and passed. STEAM COMMUNICATION. The Resolutions agreed to in Committee of Supply on Friday were read a second time and adopted. MINERS’ FRANCHISE AND OTAGO REPRESENTATION BILL. On the motion of the lion. Mr. GILLIES, Mr. O’Rorke took the chair, and the House went into Committee on the Miners’ Franchise Act Amendment Bill, and the Otago Representation Bill, which, after some further consideration, were reported with amendments. Ordered to be considered to-morrow. MESSAGE PROM IDS EXCELLENCY. Message No. 3 was received from His Excellency, transmitting Estimates of General. Government Expenditure provincially charged, for the year ending June 30th, 1803. Also, — Message No. 4, transmitting Supplementary Estimates for the past year. Ordered to be considered in Committee of Supply presently. CROWN GRANTS TO NATIVES BILL. The hon. Mr. DILLON BELL moved the second reading of a Bill empowering the Governor to give Crown Grants to the Natives. The Bill having been read a second time, was considered in Committee, reported without amendment, read a third time, and passed. COMMITTEE OP SUPPLY. On motion of the COLONIAL TREASURER, the House went into Committee of Supply, and having passed the Supplementary Estimates sent down in Message No. 3, proceeded to consider the Estimates for the ensuing year, till about five o’clock, when the Chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on to-morrow. A MESSAGE PROM THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL was received, announcing that they had passed the Election Petitions Act Amendment Act, with certain amendments, to which th-y requested the concurrence of this House; also, the following Bills without amendments, —the Arms Act Continuance Act, Joint Stock Companies Act Amendment Act, and the Customs Duties Act Amendment Act. House adjourned at a quarter past five o’clock. TUESDAY, AUGUST 19th. The SPEAKER took the chair at 12 o’clock, PETITION. Major RICHARDSON presented a petition from Mr. John Russell, late of Auckland, applying for a fresh trial of a law ease in which he conceived himself wronged.—Petition received. WAIT AKA INVESTIGATION. Mr. FOX asked the lion, the Colonial Secretary whether it is the intention of the Government to take any and what steps to continue the investigation into the title to the disputed block of land at Wuitara? The hon. Mr. DOMETT should decline to give any answer such as would fetter the Ministry in the advice they might hereafter have to give to the Governor. At present, however, Ministers were not aware of the actual state of the case, and could not therefore give any answer at all. MILITIA LAWS. Mr. FOX asked, the hon. the Colonial Secretary whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce any Act this Session to amend the law relating to Militia and Volunteer Forces? The hon. Mr. DOMETT replied in the affirmative. NEW PROVINCES ACT. Mr. FOX asked the lion, the Colonial Secretary whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce any measure to repeal or amend “ The New Provinces Act, 1858”? The Hon. Mr. DOMETT replied in the negative. LAND REGISTRY ACT. Mr. FOX asked the hon. the Attorney-General whether it is the intention of the Government to put in operation the provisions of the Act of 1860, establishing a new system of registration and transfer of title thereby ? The Hon. Mr. GILLIES replied that such was the intention of the Government, and it was a great pity it was not put in force sooner. LOSSES IN TIIE “ WHITE SWAN.” The hon. Mr. DILLON BELL moved, That a Select Committee lie appointed to consider the question of losses sustained by Members of Assembly and other passengers engaged in the public service, by the wreck of the “ White Swan.” Report to be brought up on Friday, 22nd August. The Committee to consist of the following Members;— Mr. Rhodes, Mr. Jollie, Mr. Atkinson, Mr. John Williamson, Mr. C. J. Taylor, and Mr. Ormond.—Agreed to. GOVERNMENT PRINTING PRESS. The hon. Mr. DOMETT moved, That the Report of a Board of (Ifficers, appointed to enquire and report to the Government as to the expediency of establishing a Government Printing Press, he referred to the following Select Committee to report thereon. The Committee to have power to call tor persons, papers, and records ; to report on August 26th. Committee— Mr. Jollie, Mr. Stafford, Mr. Curtis, Mr. A. Richmond, Mr. Ormond, Mr. Ward, Mr. Fox, Mr. O’Rorkc, and Mr. Cargill—Agreed-to. PETITION OP J. B. WILLIAMS. Mr, STAFFORD moved that the petition of Mr. J. B, Williams be referred to the Committee on Private Grievances. —Agreed to. DOCUMENTS LOST IN THE “WHITE SWAN.” Mr. O’NEILL moved, That the Return made to an Order of the House, and laid on tiie table on 23rd July last, relative to documents lost in the “ White Swan,” be printed. —Agreed to. RESIGNATION OF JUSTICES OP THE PEACE. Mr. A. J. RICHMOND moved, That there he laid on the table of the House, copies of all correspondence with reference to the resignation of Justices of the Peace for the Colony, since the Ist of January, 1862. —Agreed to. PETITION OF R. PARK. Mr. WELD moved, That the petition of R. Park, be referred to the Private Grievance Committee. —Agreed to. LEAVE OP ABSENCE. On motion of Mr. WARD, leave of absence fora fortnight was granted to Mr. A. E. White, member for Akaroa. THE IMPERIAL BILL —ADDRESS TO HER MAJESTY. Mr. DOMETT said, that the motion lie was about to propose to the House, —that an address he presented to Her Majesty on the subject of the Duke of Newcastle’s despatch of the 26th May, 1862, did not require any lengthened statement in explanation of it. All the essential points of the address had already been discussed on the question of the resolutions relating to the responsibility and duty of Ministers in Native affairs, which he had lately had the honour to bring before them. In brief, the address prayed that the responsibility of governing the Natives might not at this moment be transferred to the colony, because lhe acceptance of such responsibility necessarily involved responsibility for the expenditure that might lie a consequence of such Government, including that of troops necessary for the defence of the colony ; it believed that such transfer was unjust, because the present disturbed state of the country was not brought about by our misgovernment of the Natives, and it asserted the impolicy of withdrawing the Imperial troops at the present time, as the colony could not bo adequately defended by Militia alone. The opinions thus expressed were nut new, but had been frequently assorted by the House on previous occasions. Only last session, the report of the Military Defence Committee, adopted by the House, had declared this was not a settlers’war. The report said that “ whatever expenditure of that kind took place, it would be incurred for the maintenance of the Queen’s authority in these Islands ; and in consequence solely of a Native Insurrection, raised while the responsibility of Native affairs remained with the Imperial Government and not with the colonists; and having regard to the losses which in other ways must inevitably fall on the settlers if that insurrection continue, the Imperial Government would be willing to take a generous view of the liability, and would retrain from imposing such a proportion of the whole burden us would crush the finances of the colony, and render impossible the requisite provision for its internal service and for the maintenance of the Provincial Governments, on which depends the colonization of, the country.” Again in an address proposed by his hon. friend, Mr. Stafford, and agreed to on the 3rd July, 1861, it was declared hy the House that “ the maintenance of Her Majesty’s sovereignty in New Zealand we regard as a matter of Imperial concern. * * * At the same time this House is of opinion that the employment of the colonists as a Militia force, besides interrupting the industrial pursuits of the colony and thereby greatly diminishing its resources, will he far more costly than the employment ol a larger number of Her Majesty’s troops, if those troops could he procured.” And the late Governor, Colonel Browne, stated in the message to which the above address was an answer, that “the colony has not the means of meeting the outlay which may bo required for organizing and maintaining the Militia forces in an efficient state,” Once more, in an address to the Governor at the end of the session, the House remarked “wo must trust that the measures wc have adopted may not he without their use, in restoring confidence and tranquility, and that by these means the Imperial Government may he assisted in asserting the supremacy of the law and the authority of the Queen,” To which the Governor answered, “ I thank for flic mtuuiei in which you lifivo expressed your

readiness to aid the Imperial Government in the maintenance of law and order.” All these extracts showed that the House had frequently maintained the chief positions taken up in the address before them. That the war was a Government, not a settlers’, war; was undertaken to establish the Queen’s sovereignty, and that the colony could not be defended by Militia alone nor bear the whole expense of Imperial troops. The sneers that had been levelled at the tone of the address by some lion, members were equally applicable to former resolutions and addresses of the House. He would say no more about the address, which spoke plainly enough tor itself, but would call their attention to the resolutions proposed as an amendment by the hon. member for Ellesmere (Mr. Fitzgerald), which asserted diametrically the opposite of the opinions of the address, and recommended a course' precisely the reverse. The hon. member proposed “ that we should accept the responsibility of governing the Natives, with the cost attending it; that incase Imperial troops are required, the Home Government should supply them, and consider them as part of its contributions towards the government of the Natives; and further that any Military force thus sent should be entirely under the command of the Government of the colony.” Now these were very strong, he had almost said wild, propositions. The assumption of the responsibility of the government of the Natives implied of course that we were able to govern them; that was, had both wisdom enough and power enough to do so. As for the wisdom, the capacity to govern, he did not doubt that there was enough of that in the colony,—at least we were as likely to find it here as in the Colonial office, or in ttic agents generally employed by them; but the itower to govern was another thing; the hon. gentlemen must cither consider that physical force was a necessary element of such government or not, —requisite or not to support the laws. If he thinks it requisite, I suppose he would establish a police force, say, like the Irish Constabulary force, —perhaps raise Native regiments. Well, the Minister proposed to give the Governor power to do this if he thought fit. lint it was obvious that all this was a work of time; such a force to maintain order and support the law could not be organized and disciplined in a day. So that an interval must necessarily occur, during which no force of the kind required could exist, if the troops were to be withdrawn, as the hon. member seemed willing that they should be. 'But the organization of the force that should take their place eventually could be carried on far better if they remained here, indeed could hardly he carried on at all if they were removed. But, after all, from the general tenor of the hon. member’s remarks and eloquent speeches relating to this subject, be (Mr. D.) could not help suspecting that tln-re was at the bottom of the hon. member’s motions thereon a lurking idea that the Natives could he governed without any physical force to fall back upon at all. The hon. member seemed disposed to trust entirely to the power of generosity, on our part, and good will and conciliation. He had unbounded faith in the power of sentiment and great ideas. Nowfar he it from him (Mr. D.) to refuse to recognize the power of large and noble ideas and generous sentiments upon the human mind. Ho would most readily acknowledge that great momentary effects might be produced upon individuals and races by faith in these things.. Even whole nations might be excited to great convulsive efforts, continued even for a considerable time. Every one remembered how the crusades were brought about. It was undeniable that under the stimulant ot such ideas the nobler impulses of our nature might be called into violent activity so as to exclude and keep down the baser passions and instincts. But this is a condition of the mind, whether of individuals or nations, essentially transitory, and cannot be made the normal, regular, and permanent mode of their mental existence. Whenever sentiment alone bus been tried as the means of keeping a people in the straight course of order and obedience and law, under the ordinary considerations of their daily life, it has failed. The lower passions then conic into play, they are no longer absorbed and consumed as it were in the lire of exalted feeling. It is then that permanent restraint is wanted, —some physical force requnedas tlie basis for the maintenance and administration of law. He remembered in some life of Goethe, who certainly of all men ot those times had about the profoundest knowledge of human nature, there was described a kind of allegorical seal which the poet had designed representing the qualities necessary for the government of mankind. There was an eagle at the top to indicate vigilance and foresight, what came in the middle he .forgot, lor it was many years since he read of it, but he well remembered there was a lion at the bottom to represent physical force; this was Goethe’s idea at all events. All this was doubtless commonplace enough, mere ordinary maxims of common sense. But they were really provoked by the hon. member’s resolutions, which looked as if they ignored them altogether, and to apply them to the present case, to the Natives. Supposing wc attempted to establish “ law and order,” as the phrase was, solely by trusting to their reason and good sense and our good will, possibly tiie older men and some of the middle aged might he guided and restrained by good feeling and reason alone. But would not the passions of the younger men sometimes excite them to breaches of law, to give way to license and occasional crime ? Indeed, who ever heard of a race governed in this way? Certainly neither the English or Scotch could be; whether the hoi:, member’s own countrymen could he would not presume to say, though the names of “ Dounybrook,” “ Galway,” and “ Tipperary” did not exactly suggest the p ssihility of it. Were the Natives then so superior to these races; such pure creatures of reason ? The only people, or set of people, he had ever heard of who were to he ruled by sentiment alone, was that company of Helemites in Rabelais’ Rantagrucl. But they are expressly stated to have been all well born, well nurtured, and well educated. But now if it be allowed that the presence of troops at least is necessary while no other adequate force exists, howdocs the hon. member propose that they should be paid? Ho proposes that the Home Government should give them at its own expense; even though it hands over to us the whole control of the Natives and the responsibility for our use of it. Is there any reason to think the Home Government will agree to this ? To take upon themselves the consequences of our acts, over which they are to have no control, in which they have no voice. Was there not the example of the Cape of Good Hope colony before them? Did not every one remember how the colonists had been accused of desiring to have troops there solely to get the benefit of the Commissariat expenditure? If that was the temper in which the Home Government looked at this question of troops for the colonies, was it possible to conceive that the hon. member’s proposition would he accepted by them? It is clear they will not listen to it for a moment. Still less, if possible, would they listen to another proposal of the hon. member s, that any military force sent hero should be placed under the sole command of the Governor. They would not place the troops under the late Governor, a soldier of reputation who had seen much service. Nor would they do this for the present Governor, with till his reputation, and though sent out here on a special mission. He (Mr. 1).) could not but think these resolutions were visionary, quixotic; and the whole idea of taking the responsibility without the cost was equally so. No doubt the hon. member would support his views, including these, with his usual eloquence and ability. That eloquence even when the arguments it clothed were not convincing, was not without its use. The hon. member’s eloquence broke like Hashes of lightening across these cloudy debates, —purified the atmosphere they breathed, —and sent, as it were, richer and nobler currents of thought and feeling through the veins ot the House. But let not hon. members be too much dazzled by them. The flash of lightening was not a lire to warm nor a star to guide. If they followed it too implicitly, they might find it sometimes a mere will o’ the wisp. Ho thought they had better adopt the address than the resolutions, however attractive the latter might he rendered by the great talents of the hon. member. The former was certainly more practical, and, lie believed, expressed opinion more in accordance witli the people of the colony, and better suited to the necessities of the crisis. Most Gracious Sovereign,—

“ Wc your Majesty’s loyal subjects, the Legislative Council and House of Representatives of New Zealand, in Parliament assembled, in all faithfulness and zeal to your Majesty’s service humbly pray your Majesty’s interference to avert from this Colony the evils with which it is threatened.

“From n despatch just received from your Majesty’s Secretary of State tor the Colonics, dated 26th May, 1862, we have learnt with deep concern and anxious foreboding that it is the intention of your Majesty’s Government to relinquish the duty of governing the Native inhabitants of these islands, to cast the whole burden and responsibility thereof upon ourselves, and prematurely to withdraw the troops necessary lor the protection of the English settlements and the maintenance of your Majesty’s authority. “ We humbly represent to your Majesty that this course would he fraught with injustice to ourselves, would probably bring the settlements to the brink of ruin, and issue in the destruction of the Native race.

“ Had the evils which distract this country been produced by onr own mis-government of the Natives, it might have been considered just to throw upon ns the obligation to remedy and remove them. Hut from the first settlement of the Colony the government of the Natives has been m the hands of your Majesty’s representatives, and of officers responsible to them alone. Au absolute control over any legislation affecting the | Natives, aver tlio fulimaisiratiaa of law? reladag to

them, and especially over all transactions for the sale and disposal of their lands, has been strictly retained by your Majesty’s representatives, under the orders of successive Secretaries of State; and the settlers as a body seem to have been viewed by Government as .objects of suspicion and distrust to preserve Natives from whom it was necessary to pass peculiar enactments, and to establish especial protectorates. “It was under a Government conducted on these principles that war with the Natives broke out in 1845 —a war which commenced with an act on the part of the insurgent Chief Heke, the cutting down of the Government flagstaff, intended as a distinct rejection of your Majesty’s sovereignty. This was undeniably a Government war and not a settlers’ war. And all the present disturbances have arisen either from a desire felt by the Natives for law and order among themselves—the establishment of which, while the Government maintained its exclusive right to govern them, devolved as a duty solely upon the Government; or from a determination to found a separate nationality—a sentiment which is antagonistic not to the settlers but to the Government, and has naturally manifested itself in an insurrection against the latter, not in a war against the former, “ There is abundant proof of the correctness of this view in despatches and declarations of your Majesty’s representatives themselves. And your Majesty’s Secretary of State, in the despatch which has given occasion for this our humble appeal to Your Majesty, acknowledges that the system of keeping the management of the Natives under the control of the Home Government to the exclusion of the English settlers has proved a failure. The proof of this failure is assumed to be the present disturbed state of the country and the repudiation of your Majesty’s sovereignty by so many of the Natives. It is therefore clear that the Governmcat and not the settlers are account* able for the evils of the present state of things. “ If then it is unjust to hold us responsible for disorders which we had not the power of preventing, it seems still more unjust as well as impolitic, to transfer to us alone the obligation to extricate the Colony from its difficulties at the present moment. Had the Natives been in a state of peace and prosperity, and of acknowledged allegiance to your Majesty, the transfer of authority to govern them or of the responsibility attending it, might have been accepted by us wilh gratitude for the confidence displayed in us, and a reasonable anticipation of favourable results. But your Majesty’s Secretary of State proposes to make this transfer at a time when the exercise of the duties it involves is full of difficulty, and must entail upon the Colony expenses it is not in a condition to bear, and dangers it cannot without the aid at least of the presence of your Majesty’s troops successful)' contend with. It is to bo made at a time when a large body of the Natives arc endeavouring 10 establish a separate nationality, and have set up a “King” and raised bands of armed men to maintain it; when many other tribes arc alienated or disaffected ; and at the close of a war which has failed to convince the Natives of the superiority of your Majesty’s arms, and has reduced to a mere military garrison one British settlement, where the insurgent Natives at this moment hold possession, avowedly by right of re-conquest, of one of its principal agricultural districts which had been occupied and cultivated for years b) r peaceful and industrious settlers.

‘* To extricate the colony from these difficulties and restore tranquility and prosperity, will be a work of time, involving much expense, and require a firm, and cautious, and wise administration of Government. \Yc are very sensible of the prompt and generous assistance afforded to us by your Majesty at the outbreak of the late insurrection; and our best endeavours will always be loyally and cordially given, to co-operate with and assist to the best of our power, your Majesty’s Representative in this arduous task. But we cannot think it just that this task should be imposed exclusively upon ourselves, and that the powerful aid of the Imperial Government should be withheld from us. And we are grieved to perceive that your Majesty’s Secretary of State appears to be under the impression that there is a disinclination on our part to take upon ourselves a fair share of the burden of the defence of the country, either in the raising of money or men. The losses and the share of expenses connected with the late war, which the colony has borne or is called upon to pay, amount to half a million sterling. The taxation requisite to meet these losses and demands, would, with that already paid by the colonists, amount to four times as much for every individual in the colony as is paid per head by the people of England; while with regard to raising men for your Majesty’s service, the number of Taranaki settlers, actually engaged in military service for the last two years and a half, amount to more than three-fifths of the male population of the whole Province, from 16 years of age upwards. “ The Secretary of State seems also to think that the colony can be defended by Militia alone. The opinion of all your Majesty’s Representatives—of the Generals and Military commanders acquainted with the country —has often been given against this view. The fact that the settlements are isolated one from another, situated at great distances on an extended line of sea coast, with tracts of impervious wooded and mountaneous country behind and between them, but inhabited by hordes of warlike Natives, who, occupying a central position with regard to them all, could concentrate their forces to attack any one of them separately, is sufficient to show the impossibility of any Militia force in this stage of the colony’s existence being adequate for its defence. “ There is another consideration which we humbly venture to present to your Majesty. If the colony lie left for its defence, to its own resources, and the settlers be unaided by your Majesty’s Government, it will be obviously impossible for them to assert or maintain your Majesty’s sovereignty over the largo portions of the Northern Island not occupied by them but inhabited by the aboriginal population. They might in self-defence be obliged to confine themselves to the government of their own districts, laying down lines of demarcation, outside of which the Native population of a country, comprising a large extent of sea coast, would be left in a state of virtual independence,—a position which might lead to grave complications. “ Moreover, if the settlers were thus left to their defence, any war that might arise, would degenerate into a guerilla warfare of continual surprises and massacres, —the ultimate consequences of which would be, after incalculable loss to the settlers of life and property, the certain extermination of the Native race.

“ To avoid all these evils, to give a chance for the restoration of prosperity to the colony, to secure the safety of the settlers, and the preservation of tho Native race, we implore your Majesty to cause this proposal of your Majesty’s Government to withdraw its support from the colony to be reconsidered. Wo pray your Majesty, to direct that measures may bo resolved on, consistent with the welfare of both races inhabiting these islands, with the preservation in its integrity of this portion of the empire, with the maintenance of the honor and dignity of your Majesty’s" Crown, and with the magnanimity of the people of England.” Major RICHARDSON seconded the motion.

Mr. FITZGERALD would have been glad to have obliged the hon, member, but he could not speak on a subject which he knew nothing about. The address had only been put in members’ hands last night, and he therefore moved that the debate be adjourned till this day week. Dr. i'EATHERSTON seconded the motion. Mr. J. C. RICHMOND moved that it be adjourned till to-morrow, which, after some discussion, was agreed to. REPORT OB' SELECT COMMITTEE OX LAND CLAIMS. A week’s further time was given for bringing up this Report. REPORT OP SELECT COMMITTEE ON CROWN LANDS BILL. A week’s further time was also given to this Committee. THE MINERS’ FRANCHISE ACT AMENDMENT BILL was read a third time and passed, and ordered to be transmitted to the Legislative Council, THE OTAGO REPRESENTATION BILL was also read a third time and passed, and ordered to be transmitted to tho Legislative Council. ELECTION PETITIONS ACT AMENDMENT BILL. The amendments made by the Legislative Council in this Bill having been read, were agreed to, and a Message ordered to be sent to inform tho Legislative Council of the same. RESERVED SIXTHS. The second reading of the Land Revenue Appropriation Act Amendment Bill was postponed till tomorrow. MINISTERIAL RESPONSIBILITY—ADJOURNED DEBATE. Mr. FOX resumed the debate, and referred to the extremely obscure and misty character of these resolutions. This was tho principal objection which had been made to his own resolutions, but they were as the mid-day sun to the midnight darkness as compared with these. The Native Minister, in the former debate, had declared that it was useless to attempt to distinguish between Native affairs and Colonial affairs, but that distinction was drawn in the first of tlicsc resolutions. Ministers were to “ advise tho Governor in Native affairs as well as in Colonial affairs whenever His Excellency desires.” _ He (Mr. Fox) apprehended that was the simple condition which attached to all advice given to His Excellency. Ministers were not in the habit of foisting their opinions upon the Governor unasked. Then, they should ala* ' tender advice on all occasions of importance wheu.thcy

deem it their duty in the interests of the colony to do so. What understanding could the House arrive at by this resolution? it simply amounted to stating that thev would tender their advice when they thought fit. They would advise His Excellency whenever he desired it’ and other times too if they thought lit. In the second resolution was another ground of mystification : “ That Ministers should at His Excellency’s request undertake the administration of Native affairs, reseiving to His Excellency the decision in all matters of Native policy.” What was the distinction between Native affairs and Native policy? What Native question could arise the administration of which should not be in some degree connected with Native policy? What was rcaily meant? Did it mean that His Excellency the Governor was to dictate a line of policy which Ministers, as blind unreasoning tools, must carry out? Ho could see no other meaning. These resolutions would only place His Excellency in difficulties from which they knew from his despatches he would be very glad to escape. The third resolution was also very obscure. Of course it was a fundamental principle of the constitution that Ministers could not bind the colony to any liability not authorized by the House of Representatives. What need then was there for stating it here? But if it was intended as a threat to the Imperial Government, it was just so much waste paper. Ho hoped Ministers when they rose would throw some light on these utterly unintelligible resolutions. If any hon. member opposite understood what these resolutions meant, let him rise and say so. But suppose the resolutions understood, and that they were intended (as he believed was the case) as an utter repudiation of the principle of ministerial responsibility in Native affairs, Ministers were bound to tell the House how far His Excellency was prepared to acquicse in such a decision and carry on the government of the Natives on such a basis. If these resolutions had any meaning it was the very reverse of what His Excellency had when he penned that often-quoted despatch of the 30ih November, 1861. Was His Excellency prepared to retract what he then said? The House was entitled to be informed of this before they were asked to pass these resolutions. Hon. Mr. GILLIES thanked the member for Rangitikei for having let in some light as to the relations that were intended to exist between His Excellency and thu late Ministry. He had thought that there was not much difference between the opinions of the press ana the late Ministry on this subject; he had thought that the late Ministry did not intend to take the whole responsibility for Native affaire having stated in their resolutions that the House disclaimed on the part ot the colony the exclusive responsibility of governing, &c., the Native race and the liability for the principal share of the cost of suppressing insurrections. If appeared now, however, from the remarks of the hon. member for Rangitikei, that the late Ministry were prepared to accept that despatch of His Excellency ot the 30th November, 1861. He had not believed that they were prepared to advise and accept the for that advice, ou Native affairs as on all others. The position the present Ministry took was that the Governor should consult his Ministers but form his own decision. The meaning of these resolutions he contended was very' clear. The difference was distinct enough between administration and policy. The Government proposed these Resolutions not as a great mental result, but as an enunciation of what they' believed to be the opinions of the House. The Ministers were bound to do what was expressed in the first resolution, but this was controlled by the third resolution as to the extent their advice was to go. The first resolution truly did separate Colonial and Native affairs, and there was a broad line of distinction between them, according as the result was immediately’ Native or immediately Colonial. If this line was not kept broad and clear, Ministers and this House might be led into responsibility' which they never intended to take. By the second resolution Ministers would be bound to’act under His Excellency in carrying out his policy, as agents carrying out his ideas, reserving to themselves the liberty of refusing to carry out a policy which they considered wrong. This was the true responsibility. Ministers were to be responsible to the House for the advice they gave and also in their administration, but this House was not to be responsible for Native policy, the decision of which rested with the Governor. He would remind the member for Rangitikei that there was other liability besides pecuniary. They repudiated any liability that was not undertaken by this House. No Ministry should have the power of binding the House in honour to pay for plans they might recommend, unless authorized by the House. The decision ot this question would have a material effect on the question of Colonial responsibility for the cost of managing the Natives and pu.ting down insurrections. The colony was not to be responsible either legally or morally for the conduct of Native affairs, because the Imperial Government had undertaken it and could not hand it over without the consent of the Natives. They were not prepared to accept any' responsibility- for past affairs but left the responsibility where it now was admitted by the Duke of Newcastle himself to rest. They wish the colony to declare that it would not take the responsibility for the evil past and theevil effects of the past. It mattered not that we might be taunted with desiring to repudiate liabilities which our conduct had incurred, with having a disinclination to make sacrifices for our own benefit, with shrinking from responsibility justly falling upon us. We could easily clear ourselves from such taunts. He asked the House carefully to consider what these resolutions involved, and he declared that they went no further than advising His Excellency and carrying out his Excellency’s decision. He now left the resolutions in the hands of the House, believing it to be the best course they could adopt, especially now that it appeared that the late Ministry were prepared to adopt His Excellency’s despatch and accept the whole responsibility. These resolutions contained the deliberate opinion of Ministers which they were prepared to carry out or compel any future Ministry to carry out. Mr. FOX, in explanation, said he had said nothing conveying the idea that the late Ministry were prepared to adopt His Excellency’s despatch in toto. Mr. CARLETON would not pretend to understand these resolutions very perfectly nor did he believe these relations could he very definitely and clearly expressed. The main difference between these resolutions and the late Colonial Secretary’s appeared to be in the second resolution. He could not see why any Ministers should object to act as agents to carry out his plans but there was no occasion for thorn to be so. Let there be only one office, the officers and clerks of which should carry out His Excellency’s plans as well as Ministers. The third resolution contained a play of words upon the responsibility to the Imperial Government. The complaint made against the Stafford Ministry was that through being too profuse in their advice they had led the colony into liability for the Taranaki difficulty. He should vote for the resolution, believing that, till a clear start could be made free from past difficulties, on the Government and the Home Government should rest the whole responsibility. He voted for Mr. Fox’s resolutions on the ground that the Ministers should have the right to determine what position they should take, and ou the same grounds he would support the present resolutions, understanding them to make the Ministers responsible to the House, but not making the House responsible to the Home Government.

Mr. MOORIIOUSE could not vote for the resolutions. lie could not clearly sec the difference between the effect of advice and responsibility. It they passed a resolution that Ministers should advise His Excellency, they must pledge the House to a certain extent of responsibility for the result of their advice. He did not think there was any substantial difference between these resolutions and those of the late Ministry. Hut we stood now in a different position, since the receipt of the Duke of Newcastle’s despatch, giving a distinct challenge to the Colony to take Native affairs on its own hands, and expressing a direct opinion that, in the hands of the Imperial Government, the administration of those affairs had been a failure. The reason why the House shrank from taking the responsibility was that they were more desirous to escape certain pains, penalties, and costs, than to do justice to the subject of Native management. His advice was to do one thing or the other, not to temporize. If they wished to leave these affairs in the hands of the Government, let them retire from these affairs altogether, and not, by fingering tbe pie, let ns in for a share of the expense. The other course, and the more dignified one, was this, —the Home Government being too far off the scene of action, the affairs of the Natives would be best in our hands, and lie was willing to accept the responsibility of them under certain conditions. Say to the Imperial Government, you cannot manage the Natives, and we can, and we will take the whole management. But he would not advise to take over these affairs without staling our opinion of the value of the estate. He was of opinion that the Governor still stood in the same position to the House as before the Taranaki war. Ministers advised the Governor then, but without authority from the House, and ho denied that there existeil at this moment any responsibility tor that war and its consequences. The adoption of a course like that proposed by the member for Ellesmere would, he believed, free us from all debt. He felt it his duty to record his opinion that to pass resolutions like these was a very unadvisahlc course for this House to adopt. lie begged to move the previous question. Mr. CARGILL differed from both sides of the House. It appeared to him a mere question of time as to when the whole responsibility should he taken, and the present was the time to take the whole rcsjjonsibilitv, and put an end to these doubts and difficulties. He thought that was the course the House was bound to take. It was universally admitted that the system hitherto pursued had been bad and vicious, and it had

failed, and the Home Government said, take the whole management. The House was, he thought, bound to accept the trust. He did not think the quesiion ot our liability to the Home Government would be at all affected by any system of ministerial responsibility we might adopt. He entirely agreed with the last speaker with regard to this part of the question. The despatches from the Duke of Newcastle had been referred to in a spirit which this House should not cultivate. He believed that, notwithstanding these smart despatches, the Home Government would judge our case upon its merits. The House should go upon the principle of considering simply this —by what means could they secure the best administration of Native affairs. He believed it could be best done bytaking them into our own hands, and he would there* fore vote against these resolutions. The hon. Mr. MANTELL would very much like to know who had the power of transferring the whole responsibility and control of the Natives to us? Until they were under the control of Her Majesty’s Government, it was absurd to speak of the control ofthem being handed over to us. (A laugh.) Mr. FITZGERALD spoke in strong terms of condemnation of the way in which this question was being made a party battle-ground, and of the retractation by hon. members supporting these resolutions ot the opinions they had held in former days. The resolutions were the same as those of the late Ministry, and the present Ministers were asking the House to adopt them now because they were theirs, as they had opposed them before because they were brought forward by the other party. Having compared the two series of resolutions, and show-n that they were substantially the same, he argued strongly in favour of the Colony taking the whole responsibility of Native management, and denied that there was any difficulty in the way of the Crown handing it over. Mr. COLENSO said, important as the subject bcfor them was, he had not intended to take any active part in discussing it; but, ns the three last speakers (FitzGerald, Mcorhousc, and Cargill) were all Southern members—all speaking against the Ministry and the resolutions before them, —and all saying much upon Native affairs, of which they practically knew nothing,—ho could not possibly he silent; especially since hon. members on his side had been so broadly charged by those hon. Southern members (from Heathcote and Ellesmere) with bein*; about to vote on this occasion under the influence of party, or of fear of past pecuniary liability, or of self-interest; all which, he (Mr. Colenso) emphatically denied. Seeing then that such charges were made, it behoved him, as a plain, practical men, *o state, in a few words, his reasons lor voting for the resolutions. First, however, he would briefly notice a few remarks which hon. members on the opposite side had made. He regretted very much having heard the newly arrived hon. member (Mr. Cargill)—who had only made his advent among them yesterday, and whose face was as yet scare ly known in the House —express himself in the way he did; for while that hon. member had stated, that having but just arrived, he had not had time to go into the matter, and that he had almost stood hesitating which side to adopt, reminding him, Mr. Colenso, of what he had heard of a certain animal between two bundles of hay (laughter.) That hon. member had not hesitated to “go the whole hog” and jump to the very farthest conclusion, of our taking upon ourselves the whoi; responsibility in Native affairs (hear hear). The hon. member for Ellesmere (whom he was sorry to sec not in his place) had, in his usual truly felicitous strain, again appealed largely to their feelings ; adding thereto his prophecy as to the tenure and destiny of the present ministry (laughter). He, however, (Mr. Colenso) was reminded of a passage in the life of the celebrated statesman Mr. Fox—the hon. Charles.!. Fox —who, on one occasion in the British House of Commons, in replying to some similar prophecy, had said, “ I cannot argue with a prophet, but I can disbelieve him” (hear hear). And this was his (Mr. Colenso’s) answer to the hon. member. The hon. member for Ellesmere had also pointed to the resolutions and statements of 1854-5; and had asked, “why this House was not willing to accept full responsibility in Native affairs now, seeing it was so very desirous to do so then ?” Why not now ? Could not that hon. member see the great, the distinguishing difterance ? Their situation now was much like that of a gallant ship on shore, whose commander had absolute command ; the error or errors which placed her there were by some attributed to the old pilot, who was about to he changed for a new one; a new one was got, to whom, on entering on his duties, the old one whispers in his ear, “ Look out after the captain.” It was the captain and not the pilot; just so in Native matters, as things had been and were. The hon. member for Ellesmere had also spoken much of the resolutions before them being “ unsatisfactory”—but if unsatisfactory, were they not the best? (hear hear). He had said there was little or no difference between these resolutions and that proposed by the late Ministry; and lie had farther asked, “should not the present one also go out, if beaten in division on these ?’’ But that hon. member could not fail to see that the late Ministry themselves elected to go out upon that question, and that the despatch from the Duke of Newcastle, since received, had placed the question itself in a very different light (he. r hear). Had the late Ministry not chosen to go out upon that division, (and certainly no one in the House then wished them to do so,) and had they remained in office until the arrival of the Duke of Newcastle’s despatch, no doubt they would still have been found upon the Treasury bench, more firmly fixed than ever. The hon. member for Heathcote, had tuanted hon. members on his (Mr. Colenso’s) side of the House, with mean fears of pecuniary liabilities as regarded the past, and of self-interest as to the future ; such however was not the case. It was a very far greater fear of the amount of liability as to the unknown future (hear hear). While, however, some hon. members from the South had thus spoken against the resolutions, he (Mr. Colenso) had been gladdened in hearing other hon. member from Otago, speak in a very different strain; the lion, member for Dunedin in particular, had spoken of the treaty between the Crown of England and the natives of New Zealand, as an honorable and high,—he might almost say, holy. — contract, which could not be broken without the consent of both parties ; and in this he (Mr. Colenso) fully agreed with him. There was yet, however, another point of view, from which to look at such proposals—or schemes—as those of the hon. member for Ellesmere and his supporters,—a point of view which had not yet been once adverted to by lion, members in the House ;he meant, from and by the natives. Viewing such proposals as those of that lion, member from the Natives’side, they could only be considered as most injudicious and unwise. For. had it not been assiduously propagated by word, writing, and print, throughout the length and breadth of the land (by those too who ought to have known anti acted better,) that there was a “war-party” in this House, and that even the present Ministry was composed of a semi-war-party ? What then, if the proposals of the hon. member for Ellesmere were accepted, would he their (the Natives’) thoughts and belief, at this juncture too of a change of Ministry, in hearing, that the Queen of England, and the Parliament of England, had given them over into the hands of those whom they had been taught to look on as their enemies (hear hear). For these, and lor many other reasons, which time did not permit him to enter on now, lie should cordially support the resolutions (hear hear). EVENING SITTING. Mr. J. C, RICHMOND made a few observations in reply to the remarks of the lion, member for Ellesmere. He believed that sooner or later we should have to take the whole responsibility, and he looked upon these resolutions as the beginning of the end. He should therefore vote for them.

Major RICHARDSON observed that the interchange of compliments was evidently an order of the day; independently of the allusion of a bovine character to the member from Ellesmere, an honourable member from the East Coast had likened the new member from Otago to an ass between two panniers of hay, alluding to tlie bewildering condition in which he found the House, but he (Major R.) regretted that out of the deep recesses of classical illustration within reach of the honorable member he had not selected a more attractive piece of imagery. He could assure him, and he referred him to the census papers for satisfaction, that asses were not so numerous in Otago, and that none could be spared. It was necessary that we should fall back on first principles, and avoid the seductions of oratory and the bewilderment of subjects foreign to the question before the House. There were three parties. The first represented by the members on the Ministerial benches; the device on their banner was clearly legible —-nonresponsibility in native affairs; but he regretted that the standard-bearers wer; incomplete in number. The second represented by the members of the late Ministry—complete and formidable in their appearance, but the device on their banners cannot be read. The third party, which might be termed the Philo-Maori party, were for the acceptance of responsibility with all its burdens, past, present, and future. He could not discover the real sentiments of this party; they evidently were notfollowers oftheGreat Frederick, who asserted that Providence always favoured strong battalions, fur they would do without the military ; but as they advocated an extensive police force instead they might bo regarded as deciples of Cromwell, who urged his soldiers “ to trust in Providence, hut keep their powder dry.” He would recommend that each party should flaunt its banners to the breeze so that the House might know beneath which to rally. The real question, audit must not be blinked, is ibis —is this House prepared to take up the power which Lord Caernarvon declined in May, ISdL), to “abdicate,” which Sir George Grey urged tho Home Government

to lay down, as the price they would receive would be an absolution from the expenses of all future wars, and which the Duke of Newcastle is prepared to “abdicate” on these terms? This is what lias to he decided at present. He protested against die power of the Crown to abdicate. The contracting powers were the Crown and the natives. I’he hon. member for Ellesmere has remarked, that the transfer of power to the Assembly is only a change of the “ despository of power.” He (Major R.) asserted that this was a grievous fallacy. If the transfer were made with the Consent of the natives, then the power would absolutely leave the Crown, not for a time only; While it rested in the Governor the argument Was sound. The language of scorn had been freely heaped on the advocates of non-responsibility. They wore told by the member for Heathcote that they were afraid of “ pains and penalties.” For himself, he would say that he was not; and more, instead of confessing it with humiliation, he thought the avoidance of obligations which there was no power to fulfil was an act to be highly commended. To take the ottered responsibility where there is no power to meet the pecuniary liabilities, is the more fitting subject of scorn. We are advised to “ accept the responsibility of native affairs and strike a balance,” to “ take the entire management out of Imperial hands,” but he would ask where are the items necessary for the calculation—in the womb of the future. Tims we know that already a heavy burthen of half-a-million, it is our lot to bear. He would earnestly entreat the House to pause before it saddled posterity with a debt which would <• ■ >n it tc, the earth. Even it we would, we could no.— md if wo could, we should not, fur the gravest consequences might result to both races. He (Major R.) would not detain the House any longer, but simply express an opinion on what had already been commented on hy a member on the Ministerial benches. He referred to some vile calumnious reports which had been spread about at home, and which were operating most injuriously on the British mind, and causing a feeling of alienation to spring up between the mother country and this Colony. The noble heart-inspiring lane wage of His Grace of Newcastle, as may he read in tin; despatches immediately preceding the arrival of Sir George Grey, was now entirely altered. The language bad become terse, and to say the least, not character iz d by that courtesy and open-heartedness which funnerh prevailed. He (Major R.) was prepared, in the fac of that House, to assert that the ill-treatment of the natives by the Europeans was a gross calumny —for if there was a dominant race in this Island, it was the Maori, not the European. As regards the Middle Island, where the natives were very few in number, scarcely to be reckoned, and where arbitrary power would, if anywhere, show itself, lie had never known a single instance of oppression or injustice. It was high time that these disseminators of false allegations—these sowers of discord among brethren, were stopped. Major R. remarked, that when the most important interests were at stake—an alienation between the parent state and this its offshoot—it was the part of the coward to speak with bated breath. He must confess that, pained as he was, the words of Sir \V r . Scott on the love of country came unbidden to his memory: 4t High though his rank, anti proud his fame, Boundless his wealth as wish may claim, Despite these honors, power, and Jielf, The wretch, concentred all in self. Living shall forfeit fair renown. And, doubly dying, shall go down To the vile earth from whence he sprung. Unwept, unhonored, and unsung.’’

Mr. WELD considered these resolutions were plain and clear, which those of the late Ministry were not. He would he glad to see his hon. friends advising the Governor, for he had never been against Ministerial responsibility, hut he was against Colonial responsibility. He indignantly repudiated the charge tlia*. we were caring more for our own pockets than for the natives. He believed the financial responsibility would come to much the same whichever resolutions were carried, hut in those of the lion, member at the head of the Government ho spoke out his mind; the others were unintelligible. His lion, friend’s resolutions acknowledged the truth, and therefore he would vote for them.

Mr. REN ALL made one of his usual humorous speeches. He did not think the resolutions were worth a rap either way, but he preferred the late Ministry to the present one, and he should vote for the previous question.

Mr. WOOD said that he thought the debate on these resolutions, and the debate on the resolutions which his hon. (fiend Mr. Fox introduced on the same subject, proved most clearly the value of the suggestion made in the first instance by his friend to this House; that it was nut advisable to attempt any further definition of the relations between His Excellency the Governor and his advisers than that which already existed. Nothing could by any possibility shew more clearly the insuperable difficulties in the way of that definition than the failure of his hon. friend and the equal failure of the hon. gentlemen opposite to linng down resolutions upon this question satisfactory to this House. The resolutions must to a certain extent he indefinite. No resolutions can provide for the requirements of each particular case; and it is nothing hut folly to attempt that which in its nature is impracticable. He rose, he said, at this late period of the debate, upon a subject which had been debated over and over again in this House, for the purpose of drawing attention to a single point which had not, he thought, been brought out so prominently as it deserved. There could be no doubt that many hon. members were about to support these resolutions mainly, if not altogether because they were under ilie impression that by these means, this country would be relieved from all liability in ease of any future war. If hon. gentlemen thought that by any fiiiiii of words that they could devise, this colony would he relieved from such demands ns those of the Duke of Newcastle; if they thought that the colony would for the future be freed from liabilities to the Imperial Government such as those which have been so often under discussion in this House, they were greatly mistaken, lie said that if any form of words could have that effect, it would be that form which was taken in the memorandum of 1856, and which fixed the relations between Governor Browne and his advisers. Those words were, “ The Governor alone is responsible for the tranquility of the colony, which would be endangered by the ordinary and inevitable change of opinions consequent on a change in his advisers.” Now, nothing could he stronger than that; nothing which the Governor can agree to will ever he so strong again, and if the colony has incurred liabilities under the late system, under a system by which, in the oj inion of Mr. C. W. Richmond, as far as native policy was concerned, “ The Colony of New Zealand, being for this purpose a Crown Colony as completely as before the establishment of Ministerial Government;” if, then, heavy demands on account of the expenditure of the Taranaki war have been made against the colony under the late system, can any one in his senses suppose teat the colony will he relieved from all similar demands in ease of any future wars by such bits of flimsy resolutions as these ? Does any reasonable man suppose that, if in accordance with the advice of hon. gentlemen opposite, war should arise in the Waikato, that this House could appeal with certainty to these resolutions in relief of any demand that might be made upon the Government lor any portion of that cost? What would be the reply of the Imperial Government under such circumstances. What, if a little bill for another war were sent in by the Secretary of State, and we were to plead these resolutions, what would be the reply of the Home Government? Why, they would say directly, yon put an interpretation on your resolutions which they will not hear, an interpretation which cannot be for one moment admitted, and in spite of your Ministerial resolutions yon must pay the bill. Then, again, he asked, what position are Ministers placed in by these resolutions? If the Governor asks their advice and they give it, are they, then, entirely responsible? Or, if His Excellency does not ask their advice, arc they satisfied that he should govern the colony without it? He must confess that he could not understand the position of affairs. Hon. gentlemen opposite could not understand the resolution introduced by Mr. Fox, and hon. gentlemen on this side cannot understand the resolutions introduced by Mr. Domett. He must confess he did not understand how they were to he carried out in practice. In one place they state that Ministers are to advise the Governor when he applies for their advice ; and then by turning to the Native Lands Bill, —a most important measure, requiring the greatest caution and care in bringing it into operation, productive it may be, when in operation, of results which it is difficult to foresee or to guard against,—the last section of that Bill requires that its provisions should he carried out by the Governor in Council. Now, hero is a contradiction in terms; by the resolution, the Governor may when he likes ask the advice of Ministers; by the Bill, he must whether he likes or not; this little anomaly has never been explained. Then, in the second resolution, Ministers, “at His Excellency’s request,” are to administer native affairs. Now those words," at His Excellency’s request,” are a mere surplusage, a mere piece of pretence or device to catch votes with. They know that the Governor has requested, and will request it, that, in fact, His Excellency has said that the public business of the colony cannot he carried on in any other way. The third resolution, which consists of five lines, might he compressed within the limits of live words, that Ministers should obey the law, that is the meaning of that resolution. Who has ever taken tip the position that Ministers can hind the colony in matters of finance? The late Government clearly not only never attempted it, lint placed it on record in one of their memoranda to the Governor, that such a thing was absolutely impossible. The words used in that memorandum —we Ministers “ have no constitutional power tg bind the

identical with those used in this resolution, and which have been filched hy the present Government from the records of the last. [Mr. OotENs’O: Then why do you vote against them?] I did not say I was going to vote agAirtst them) the hon. gentleman jumps too rapidly At conclusions. I am going to vote with the Superintendent of Canterbury on his amendment u that the question be not now put,” because I think it mo.'t unwise at the present time, with the Taranaki question, which I regard solely as an Imperial question, still unsettled, to disturb the relations now existing between Ministers and His Excellency; and if the House affirms that the question be now put, I shall vote against the resolutions, because I think that they are not half so clear, not half so intelligible. [Mr. Russell : Gh, oh.] That hon. gentleman, too, is jumping at conclusions; he had better hear me out. I say that these resolutions arc not half so clear, not half so intelligible, and will not he found nearly so good in practice as that resolution of Mr. Bell’s of last session, which was unanimously adopted by this House, which has been the basis of the relations that subsisted between His Excellency and the late Government, and under which no liability or responsibility of a pecuniary kind has fallen upon this colony (hear, hear.) ’The question was then put, “That this question he now put,” and the House divided as follows ; Ayes:—Messrs. Russell, Domett, Wells, Atkinson, Richardson. Bell, Oarlcton, Jollie, Man tell, Cookson, J. C. Richmond, A, J. Richmond, Watt, O’Neill, Curtis, Colenso, Weld, Wilson, Ormond, Butler, C. J. Tavlor, James Williamson, Dick, Nixon, Mason, Stafford, and Gillies.—27. No-s :—Messrs. Brandon, O’Rorke, Carter, Rhodes, Renal!, Knzherhert, Ward, Fox, Fitzgerald, Wood, Harrison, K. Graham, Featherston, W. Taylor, Thomson, Cargill, Munro, G. Graham, John Williamson, and Henderson. —20.

The Speaker, accordingly, put the first resolution to the House, and the following division took place:— Avcs : Messrs, Bussell, Domett, Wells, Atkinson, Richardson, Bell, Caricton, Jollie, Mantel), Cookson, J. C. Richmond, A. J. Richmond, Watt, O’Neill, Curtis, Colenso, Weld, Wilson. Ormond, Butler, C. J. Taylor. James Williamson, Dick, Nixon, Mason, Stafford, and Gilies.—27.

Noes : —Messrs. Renal), Brandon, R. Graham, Thomson, Henderson, Fitzherbert, Ward, Cargill, Wood, Rhodes, G. Graham, Carter, John Williamson, Fox, < )’Korke, Fi'zgcrald, Featherston, and W. W. Tavlor—lß.

The Hon. Mr. BELL, in moving the second resolution, explained to the House that Ministers, before bringing these resolutions forward, informed His Excellence of them, and His Excellency hail been pleased to snv that if the 1 egislaturc desired that these relations should be those which should subsist between himself and his Ministers, he would adopt them for the present, hut he would refer the question for the consideration of Her Majesty’s Government. The House would therefore understand that in adopting these resolutions they must not be taken as final. The two remaining resolutions were then put and agreed to. THE NATIVE LANDS BILL. The second reading of this Bill was made an order of the day for Thursday. A Message from the Legislative Council was received informing the House that they had passed a Bill to extend the jurisdiction of the Resident Magistrate’s Court. Bill read a first time and ordered to he read a second time to-morrow. Also, that they had passed the Relief of Trustees Act, with amendments, to which they requested the concurrence of the House. Amendments ordered to be considered to-morrow. Also, that they had appointed three members to confer with a similar committee of this House, upon the amendments made in the Law Practitioners Bill and the Court of Appeal Bill. A committee of three was accordingly appointed with this object. Mr. FITZHERBERT moved that the debate he further adjourned till Tim reday next, and after discussion the motion was negatived hr 30 to 10.

Major RICHARDSON moved that the House do now divide on the question before it. Negatived on the voices. Mr. CARTER objected to the Bill before the House, on the ground that it was introduced without consulting the people of the Colony. If the country were not allowed to pass an opinion on the Bill it might pave the way for other fundamental alterations of our Constitution. The only argument that had been brought in favour of this change was that in one or two instances a deadlock between the Superintendent and his Council had occurred. As far as Wellington was concerned, he admitted there had been a difficulty at one time, till at length the electors saw it was absolutely necessary to elect members to the Council who would work in harmony with the Superintendent He believed after the experience they had had it would never occur again in this Province. It was too soon to begin tinkering the Constitution yet, before it had been in operation long enough to see how it r -«’ !y worked. He considered that this was an attack on the rights of the people. For many years they hj id been deprived altogether of representative institutions, and thereby incapacitated for the enjoyment of them, and they had not yet had time to get accustomed to all their bearings. He was sorry this had not been first discussed by the press and by the people. If this had been done, and the people had pronounced in favour of the change, the House would have been right to do it. but such was not the case. A quarter of an hour since the member for Dunedin’s motion having elapsed, he begged to move the adjournment of the debate till to-morrow. Mr. W. W. TAYLOR seconded the motion, reminding the House that they had already sat ten and a half hours to-day. The question being put, the motion was carried by 17 to 14. SUPPLY. Committee of supply and committee of ways and means were made orders of the day for to-morrow. ADJOURNMENT. The House then adjourned at a quarter to eleven o’clock. WEDNESDAY. AUGUST 20xn. The SPEAKER took the chair at five o’clock. GOLD FIELDS REPORT. Mr. WARD brought up the Report of the Gold Fields Committee: —“ The Committee having carefully con sidcred the New Zealand Gold-fields Acts, iBSS and 1860, and compared the Acts and proposed measures of the neighbouring colonies on the same subject, and having also taken evidence upon the subject, has now to report that it has compiled a new Bill, which contains the greater portion of the New Zealand Acts of 1858 and 1860, together with some additional provisions which have been suggested in the course of the inquiry; and in now bringing up arc port of its proceedings it has to recommend for the consideration of the Legislature the Bill which is brought up herewith.” Report read and received. PRINTING. The lion. Mr. BELL in apologising to the House for being unable to put before them the estimates of expenditure, complained of the difficulty of getting the printing done here, and said that when he sent this morning for a revise of these estimates, he was told that they had not thought it worth while to go on with the alterations as there was going to be a change of Ministry so soon (laughter). After some severe observations by Mr. STAFFORD on the conduct of the contract printers, Mr. BELL said that on receiving that answer lie send word that if he did nut get them in two hours he should break the contract, and he need hardly say he got them. LIGHTHOUSES. Mr. STAFFORD asked the hon. the Col. Secretary whether the Government intends to move in this session (or any Select Committee to take evidence and report upon the question of erecting and maintaining lighthouses for facilitating the navigation of the coasts of New Zealand; and what provision the Government proposes to make, generally, for that purpose? Hie hon. Mr. DOMETT replied that ho scarcely knew where the evidence could be obtained if a Committee were appointed. The Government would not oppose the appointment of such a Uommittee if the hon. member moved for one. It would he better, however, not to take any such action till the report of the select Committee on the Marine Boards Bill was brought up. MAORI .LEXICON. Mr. COLENSO asked the lion, the Colonial Treasurer whether, now that the revenues of the colony have so largely and unexpectedly increased, the Government will be pleased to act upon the resolution of this House, of August 13, 1861. viz.:—“ That it is highly desirable, ns soon as the finances of the colony will permit, that a sum of money be devoted for the purpose of commencing a standard library dictionary or lexicon of the Maori language,” which lexicon is now the more required in support of His Excellency Sir G. Grey’s scheme of Native policy. He believed, or rather, he hoped, the Government would consent to place u sufficient stun on the Estimetes to meet the purpose he had in view; hut whether that amount be in a small annual vote, or a lump sum, would be for the Government to determine, lie had stated last year, in his place in the House, that he thought they should do something to save a record of the Polynesian language—of the New Zealand dialect—while it could be saved; a language which was spoken throughout a large area—from the Sandwich islands, several degrees north of the equator, to New Zealand, and to Faster Isltind) near the South America!] shores. And; cer*

tainly, if it was desirable, philologically, to save sue a language, this island, this colony being 1 6 argest, most wealthy, and most civilised should undertake the work. They had heard much concerning the intellectuality of the Maori; what, he asked, wou _ so greatly conduce to lead on the aspiring Maori student seeking to become acquainted with theEnglis language—remembering their very retentive memories —than a good Maori-English lexicon? Again, sue would be found a most efficient auxiliary in furthering Sir G. Grey’s scheme of Native policy—aiding his many new European officers and R. M. Courts—although such a work could not possibly be available, he (Mr. Colenso) regretted to say, for some considerable time. Hence he had thought it unfortunate that it was not agreed upon and so begun last year. He hoped the Government and the House would be liberal in the matter; And he took this Opportunity (as he should nt have another) of informing the hon. the Colonial treasurer, that he would veiy gladly otter him his ideas on the subject, before he left Wellington if the Colonial Secretary would accept them. The hon. Mr. BELL replied that it would not be necessary to place a sum for the purpose on this year s Estimates. There would be plenty of money for the purpose this year (as well as fo- the improvement of the Maori Messenger ) out of the votes for Native purposes. REMOVAL OF SEAT OF GOVERNMENT.

Mr. DICK, before moving, That it is the opinion of this House that the interest of the colony require the removal of the seat; of Government to Wellington, asked permission to substitute for mi \\ ellington the words “ C< ik’s Straits” (oh, ob. and great laughter). The SPEAKER having put the question, declared “ The nccs have it.” upon which Mr. DICK withdrew his motion, and said he would give notice for Friday of a motion so amended. TARANAKI PETITION. Mr. H. A. ATKINSON' in moving ” That it be an intimation to the Committee of Supply to consider the Petition of the Provincial Council and Superintendent of Taranaki to His Excellency the Governor.’ said, air, it was not my intention to have addressed the House upon this subject at this time, but to have rny remarks until the question came to be considered in Committee of Supply. I have, however, since thought it would be desirable that the House should, at ?s early a date as possible, know the grounds upon Which we hope to induce it to consider favorably onr propositions. I will therefore, proceed at once to s’ate to the House what those grounds are. In order to understand the question aright it will be necessary to go back to the time when the late war, if I may so call it, broxe out —in fact, we must go even further hack still, anil consider the wild and lawless state the natives had been in for years in the Province of Taranaki. I take it for gran' 1 that the war is now admitted to have been an linprri .1 war, that is, a wa. for Imperial purposes, a war to assert Her Majesty’s supremacy. Wo all well know bow that war commenced : the purchase of the now (araous Teira’s block of land at Waitara was the nominal cause, the real question being whether the decison of the Governor or William King was to be carried out. I am not going to say whethe- the Governor or William King was right, I will only say what we at Taranaki believed and do still believe to this day. We, sir, knowing at we do the high character of the man who had to investigate the title, knowing tli-» tim- anu patience used in the enquiry, and above al l , knowing the Governor and tbe simpleness of his heart, we were satisfied that bis decision was right —well, sir, that is what we believe. 1 am qui e aware that there are sincere and consci ntious men who have come to a different conclusion, they mar be right and we wrong, or we may b- light and they wrong —all I say is, is that we have come to this belief. I ask that no more base motives may be attributed to us, but that those who differ from us will do us the justice to admit that we have acted an honest, although to their view, a mistaken part. Well, sir, the land was bought and ordered to he surveyed, then came the proclamation of martial law, and at the o-ime time the militia was embodied for actual service. Here iis tbe point to which 1 wish to call the particular aiu-ntion of the House ; the proclamation of martial law may he considered an Imperial act, having been done by Her Majesty’s representative, but the callin ; out of the militia was umler the authority of au Act of this Hone; by that Act the whole male population of Taranaki was embodied in a militia, placed under tl Mutiny Act and Articles of War, and handed over ,o the absolute control of the commander of Her Majesty’s troops, as any other regiment of regular troops w..uld ha»e been had they come into the Province, Now, sir, 1 understand that the chief object and duty ot a local militia is the defence of tbe lives and property of Her Majesty’s subjects within their disinct. Sir, I shall presently show that not only were we, the Taranaki militia, not allowed to defend our property, but that our properly was wantonly destroyed by order oi the military authorities. Well, sir, as I have said, the militia was embodied and placed absolutely under the control of Colonel Gold. As soon as we saw that war was Certain, the seitlers naturally thought it desirable ' to have blockhouses built in the country districts in order to protect property and keep the enemy in check. Colonel Gold would only sanction the construction of two, the one at Omata, the other al Bell Block. And, sir, we soon found that these were not sanctioned with anv idea of allowing us to protect our property, hut as posts of observation only. We also alter the war had continued for a month or two wished to export our slock, as we by that time had very grave misgivings as to the way in which the work was conducted. One la'ge sheep owner b'ouihi his sheep to town in order to ship them, but was refused permission by Colonel Gold, on the grounds that they might be wanted in the place. An order was then issued prob bitnig the export of either stock, potatoes, or anything ot ib t class; well sir, we thought that if these things were to be kept in Taranaki, because they might be wan ed by Colonel Gold, that it would be onlyreasonable that the Commissariat Department should buy them, but no, it, the English Commissariat being always, if possible, supplied by contrac.ors. would not buy, and so it was evidently our duty to keep our stock at our own ri-k and againstour own wills, until Colonel Gold should require them in the regular course of business. We were not allowed to expoit even a cheese without the permission of the military authorities, and yet, it will be hardly credited by this House when I tell it that Major-General Fratt, at a subsequent time tbuueht it his duty to write a letter to the Superintendent ot tbe Province, upbraiding the settlers for not disposing of their slock, aa it was impos-ible to clear the country ot the enemy as long as unlimited supplies ot food could be obtained by them, so that by Colonel Gold we were forbidden to export our stock, and by General Pra't abused tor not doing so; our stock therefore had to remain, and the Maoris having the free run of the country up to the very gates of the town, took what they pleased, tor it seems, it was no part of the business of Colonel Gold or of General Piatt to protect our property. The militia was told that the first duty of a soldier wa- obedience, and required to reduce this maxim to practice, by standing patiently by and seeing, yes, sir, seeing with their own eyes, their houses burnt, their stock driven away or slaughtered before their (aces. The Maoris would come to our farms close round the town, yoke up our bullocks, fill our carts with our potatoes, and quietly drive to where they chose to spend (lie night ; all this could be s< en, not only (rotu the stockades, but from the town I have said that the stockades were only considered by tbe authorities as posts of observation; and first with regard to the Omata. While Major-General Pratt was pushing on with great vigour that renowned sap, which was to end by the utter discomfiture ot ilie unfortunate W. King and his friends the Waikaios the Southern natives, the Ngaiiruauui and Taranaki encamped on Waireka hill, distant about one mile and a-balf from tbe Omata stockade, these tribes, feeling satisfied hat their friends at Waitara were quite able to take care of themselves, very wisely turned their attention to despoiling ihe enemy. So near were they to the stockade, that you could see them quite distinctly with ttie naked eye ; with a glass you couid identify men, and in many cases favorite animals we c seen being killed; on one occasion a native on the Waireka hill was killed by a rifle shot from the stockade ; this we have since learned from communication with those gentlemm who were theu in arms against us. These Mmris spread themselves over the country, iu small bauds of tens and twenties and collected everyth ng they thought worth taking, and in no instance that I am aware of were the garrison allowed to interfere, except sub rosa by the captain, but on many occasions permission was refused to persons, both from the town and the Omata stockade, who were anxious to go out to secure their properly. I be same thing went on at Bell Block; one day, a lady and a little boy, a Maori lady, 1 mean, sir, came down and drove away a small flock of sheep, a very choice flick, a flock upon which the owner bad spent much time and money. An escort went that day from town to the Bell Block, with provisions, I happened to be on that escort, and myself saw tbe sheep then in the enemy's country, on their road to Mataitawa; but', sir, as the blockhouse was only a post of observation, no one was allowed to meddle with the lady and little biy.-the duty of the escort was only to take provisions to the Blockhouse, it of course could not interfere. Sir, these are not single instances, 1 could produce any number of these, in fact, 1 have seen things occur during the war which 1 can now scarcely believe happened. I do, sir, know of my own knowledge, that long before any of the houses of the settlers were destroyed, that Col. Gold was asked to allow a bodi of settlers to volunteer, and to go and live in the country, passing from house to bouse, and so keeping tbe country open ; this proposition was refused, ii was treated by Col. Gold as though a favor vra* being asked. I have said, that not

■ only was our property not protected from the enemy, but tliat it was wantonly destroyed by the military authorities. After the war had continued for some time, it was found out that the town was quite unsafe, that it wf.s necessary that it should be trenched aod palisaded round ; moat hon. members have seen how that was done, how secure the town was made by the formidable palisading put round it (a laugh.) When it wes done w felt of course quite safe within the lines ; the fence that we put up no Maori who bad only been used to tbe miserable palings of his own pa would ever think of attempting. To the settler it seemed that the stuff for this work should be got from the bush, which was within two miles of the town, but in those days trees were very dangerous things, and so all the fences round abdut and in the town were taken for the purpose, and our defences were made of flimsy fencing rails, good, bad and indifferent. By this exceeding act of folly the whole of our gardens were destroyed, not a vegetable could be grown or a cow kept ; this, sir, to my mind was one of the causes of tbe great mortality that our poor children suffered. An agricultural population, used to an unlimited supply of milk, butler aud vegetables, was suddenly shut up in tbe town and deprived of articles which habit made necessary to their health, and all this might have been easily avoided bad the commander of the forces postered only an ordinary capacity for his office. But not content with this our church-y-rd was taken and turned into a stock-yard for the commissariat bu'locks. la® not one of those who consider that no occasion can arise when it may be right to use a church for any other object than that for which it was built, but I do say that such a wanton disregard as was here shown, without the least excuse, to the most sacred feeling* of our nature, should not (a»s without the most severe censure (hear, hear.) Such, sir, was the treitinent to which we were subjected by those who were placed over us to enforce the law. We were few and powerless, we could not even raise our Voices, for, as I have said before, we were not onlv under martial law, but under the Mutiny Act and Articles of War. I submit that I have here shewn good grounds upon which I might ask tins House for compensation ; hu sir, this is not all: this House not content with handing over the whole male ponulation of Taranaki bound hand and foot to the military commander, after all that which 1 have described, passed an Act of Indemnity, thereby taking upon itself to say that what bad been done was right, and necessary for the public s-rvice, and in so far identified itself witb those acts. I say, sir, that if this House hands over to the absolute control of a military ommander any part ot the population of these islands without their con-ent, aod for either Imperial or Colonial objects, that those people bars a perfect right to come to the House and a-k for a most liberal consideration of the sufferings and losses that follow. But, sir, lam not even going to ask this House for the pecuniary compensation that it mt;ht give us. Of course, sir, no money can possibly compensate us for what we have lost and gone through. No money can replace houses which we bad built, tr-es that we had planted, and gardens that we had made with our own hands ; but, above all, nothing can restore to us those who have be“n taken during this war. The places filled by our friend* and child-eu must for ever remain blank. But I am not asking ibis House for compensation. We, paradoxical as it may «p;>-ar, gave ourselves freely although we were under compulson, to the work the colony set us to. We put our shoulders to the wheel, and I believe quitted ourselves as men (hear, hear). We are crippled aod ruined, and we come to this House and sav give us help ; we are willing and anxious to do all that we can for ourselves ; we eay lend us this money without interest in order to set u» upon our legs again ; we are willing to be bound in any way that you like . r thiuk fair for the repayment of the p incipal * 1 say, sir, that not only is the proposition of the memorialists fair and reasonable, not only will it, if granted, be a great boon to them, but it will be the best and most economical arraugement for the country. The settler, if not helped in some such way as is here proposed or kept almost entirely by tbe Goverment, must, in a very short time, leave the Province. When 1 think of the position of almost the whole of the people of Taranaki when I hear, as I have lately heard, in letters from that Province, that men who have till now struggled manfully on, and supported their families wi bout Government aid —when I hear that these men are not on y coming, but have actually applied for Goverment aid - when I think to what a strait these men must have been driven before they would come and ask for a slit ling a day to support their wives, I do, sir almost lose heart. As in most other Provinces, so in Taranaki a great many of the firms are morgsged, and the interest is running on, without, of course, any means of meeting it. Hon. members have, I have no doubt, at some lime in their lives known what pecuniary difficuiiies are. and have known the distress it causes to an honourable ,rair.#_ when a man is, through circumstances, unable iq his engagements ; if gentlemen Will cons der this, add to it all the other things we have bad to go through for the last two yeirs and a half, they will then be able to understand the wear and tear of bodv and mind that we have suffered. 1 do believe that were this House to grant what is asked, a very great weight would be taken off the Taranaki people. lam satisfied that bv granting wbat bis asked you have the best chance of keeping the Taranaki people in that province. There is a good deal of open land round about the town that might, and I believe would, be safely and profiiably cultivat-d. The bon. gentleman (the la' 6 Colonial Secetary) said in bis place in this House that Taranaki must be treated in relation to the re*t of the Colony ; that is, that whatever we do there must be done with a due consideration as to the effect it will produce upon the rest of the Colony, Sir, I accept this position, I say it would be very wrong to plunge the country into a general war it we can avoid it; but I also say that if we are to be kept out of lands that we have bought of the Crown —it our property is to be left in the hands of the natives, and the progress of a Province to be stopped for colonial objects, then 1 say, sir. that w# have a right to come to tins House for compensation (hear, hear.) I should nut have said anything about the tone of the memorial had not the hon. the Native Minister made some remarks upen it. I may state, that had I had to write that memorial I shruld certainly not have drawn it in the same form, but I must also state tha l , after I heard the Governor’s speech upon opening this House, I felt exactly as the memorialists evidently do. 1 may here say, sir, that Ido not believe that the iaie Goverment meant to do nothing for us, or that all mention of us in the speech was omitted from want of feeling for us. I have had the pleasure of talking with the late Colonial Secretary on the subject, and I am satisfied that it was not with any idea of slighting us that no mention was made of Taranaxi in the speech; on ihe contrary, I am satisfied that they really sympathised with us. That omission I believe to have been a great mistake, and one w hicb I very much regret. But we must considei ou reading this memorial what the writer* knew about the state of affairs. Governor Mr George Grev has been nearly one year iu New Zealand, yet the only communication we have had from him wag his answer to our address upon his arrival in the Colony. No minister had been to us, or given us any encouragement, or any grounds lor hope that our troubles were being considered by those in power, whi’e on the other hand we knew that it was unsale to return to our farms —that our property was still in tbe hands of the rebels —thai a large block of our land was claimed and held by the natives as theirs by the rght of conquest—that we were forbidden by the Maoris to make a road upon our own land within six miles of town, and that they were considering whether they would not cut a line close behind ihe town, and forbid anyone under pain of death from crossing it. Can it be wondered at, that with this state of things, which has now lasted more than two years, men should become angry, and write as the memorialists have done? I, for one, am not at all surprised at the tone of that memorial. Before I sit down, sir, I will say a few words as to the relations supsisting between the two rac-s in these islands; I say that the Maoris have uniformly been treated by the stetlers with kindness and forbearance, that no two people ever came in contact b-fore in any part of the world between whom a better feeling existed. I deny most emphatically that even in Taranaki, after all that we have suffered at tbe bands of the Maoris, feelings such as are at ributed to the settlers by the Rev. Canon Stowell ever had any existence. As has been weil said the only apparent object in making those statements was the desire to make a smart speech. The Rev. Canon Stowell has been written to upon the subject and has refu*ed to withdraw the charges ha made—has dared to sav that his assertions are borne out by letters and books from the Colony, and quotes among others tha late Colonial Secretary (Mr. Fox) as one of his authoiltes, who will, I have no doubt, very soon undeceive the rev. gentleman upon the matte'. A t Taranaki, at this present time, many of tbe men wbo have been in arras against u- may he seen in the town, ami with those they know they talk freely of the incidents of the war, and in two instances, to my own personal knowledge, they have told the settlers, laughing, when and where th y had had shots at them, lb’* is hardly like the “ hewing down and cutting up de.-cribetl in the R-v. Canon Sto well’s speech. I now refer to a pastoral letter which a Right Reverend Father in God, the Bishop of New Zealand, thought it his duty to address to the people of Taranaki some years ago, a id which might seem ts) justify to some extent the views of tbe Rev, Canon. In that letter, the Right Rev. Falbet made some insinuations about Naboth’s vineyard, and hinted that we desired to possess ourselves of other men’s lands. Those asperst® 1 -* have, as far as 1 know, never been withdrawn; whethtT the Right Rev, Prelate still believes them I do not know ; but, sir, I do know this, that all through tie most trying times of the war, the people of Taranaki never saw big Lordship, never reg«iv<*d one word to

comfort and strengthen them. I say for one, and I ipeak as a member of the church of which his Lordship [, the head, 1 most deeply r gret this, not only on account of my own church, hut on account of religion in general. When, sir, i think of these accusations mnst the settlors, and view the advice that has been given to the natives in many insiances, I am reminded of another passage of Scripture. 1 remember the un--ofilable servant in the parable the one talent of the JJaori is the land, the talent «(hicb, if properly used, jjiight civilise and save him. And this, his only talent, (jo tint's been recommended to shut up, to bury as it wflr e in the eanh. I trust that the doom of the unprofitable servant has not yet been pronounced—that there is yet time to avert that doom—.that tbe action to ba taken by this House this session may be yet in lime to save tbe Maori from himself; but if not, it it be too late then I sav that moat of the blame must ami will be 0 n those who counselled the burying of his talent fapp lau ''')- ~ . Mr. FITZGERALD felt it a great honor in being asked to second this motion. After hearing the speech of the hon. member they could not but wonder that such tilings had happened in our own time, and wonder even more at the great modesty with which the people of Taranaki put forward their claims. Strictly speaking, this was a claim against the mother country. The House was in this position—not that it had a legal ch’ : ni made upon it, but it bus an honorable claim made upon us. lie thought the request was an exceedingly moderate one, that this question ba referred to the Committee of Supply, and ho believed it would he agreed to unanimously (hear, hear). After a discussion as to whether it was competent to debate the question now, the Speaker ruled that it was not. Motion then agreed to. Mr. FOX, in moving “ That before proceeding further with the business of the session, it is expedient that this House should have more information as to the composition of the Ministty. particularly in reference to the offices of Colonial Treasurer, AttorneyGeneral, and Postmaster-General. And also, that full information should be given to it by the Government to the particular plan nr scheme on which it is proposed to establish frontier settlements, for which purpose the Government has intimated its intention of rsking this House to authorise the raising of a loan of one million pounds sterling,” said, that in tabling the present motion he had no intention to propose any Vote of want of confidence or censure on the Ministry. His on I v object was to obtain information on the points involved in it; and thought lie of course would not excite the virtuous indignation of the hon. member representing the head of the Government by saying that he was a foul that if he simply put questions to the Ministry they would evade a reply, yet experience had taught him that he would probably get such a mere categoilcal answer as would convey no information at all. By embodying bis questions in amotion, he hoped to be able to extract some definite replies, and at all event" if the answers were evasive, he would be able to comment upon them. He begged to disclaim the smallest intention of throwing any difficulties in the way of the Government. The man mustbe a fit tenant for a lunatic asylum who at this moment would do anything to impede the success of Sir George Grey’s plans for solving the difficulties of the present cilsis. But he conceived that nothing could more impede their success, nothing more contribute to embarrass His Excellency, than that he should beadvised by so ill-organised and unconstitutional a fragment of a Ministry as he saw on the Treasury benches. The hon. member at the head of the Government had on a previous occasion when announcing his Ministry to the House in (boned it that he hoped to secure the seivicesof ft Auckland man is Treasurer, and he (Mr. F.) was afraid that the hon meinb r had been trading on the name of Ills late (olleague Mr. Wood. A fortnight, however, had now elapsed, and the Treasury was still held in commendun with the Native Ministry; a combination of offices quite incompatible, and which no man. if he had the shoulders of Atlas and the muscle of Hercules, could satisfactorily fill. The laboured financial statement of the hon. member for Wallace (Mr. Bell) must have satisfied the House that it was quite beyond his power to execute the onerous duties of both offices; and he hoped the Col. Secretary would not any longer defer what was essential to the very existence of his Ministry. Then, the position of the Attorney-General was most unsatisfactory. That hon. member had been accidentally but mod happily designated “ the Attorney-General for Otago,” and it appeared that as soon as the session was over he was to resign his office and return to that Province. The House ought to be informed who was intended to supply his place—a place at the present crisis of the utmost importance and involving the most serious considerations. Then, it was generally circulated of doors that the hon the Postmaster-General had am unCed himself unable to stand the enervating climate „.f Auckland, and would retire from the Ministiy the moment that it returned to that place. But supposing that these offices were permanently filled, and not merely temporarily, the Ministry exhibited a most one-sided construction, being absolutely without a representative of the Northern Island.—[Here the hon, Mr. Russell leant forward on the Ministerial bench, and caught Mr. Fox’s eye.]—l beg pardon, sir, the hon. member continued, there is a small amouotof Northern Island element in the Ministty. I had forgotten the hon member for Auckland City East. But, sir, we do not accept him as a sufficient representative of the Northern Island. His oositiou in this House as a public man does not entitle him to be regarded as in any way a sufficient representative of Northern Island interests. Every one remembers the story of the London fop entering his club and calling to the waiter, *• Bring mo e. beef steak and rub the plate with a siialot.” Sir, this is exactly what the Colonial Secretary has done, he has served up to His Excellency Middle Island Ministry, and to give it a smack of the Northern Island, he has just rubbed his plate with the hon. member for City East (great laughter). But, sir, this is not enough. We Northern Island men demand a flavour more appreciable than what might be mistaken for the taste of a dirty knife (laughter). Sir, before the House can have confidence in the Ministry the Northern Island must he properly represented in it, which no one can say it is at present. But, sir, there is another direction also on which I take the liberty of recommending the honorable member to strengthen his position. I consider it a most unfortunate thing, sir, that, at this crisis, when the eyes of the Natives are upon us, men in whom they had confidence, grounded on their antecedents, should be displaced, and that there should be put at the head of the Government a gentleman who, if not one of the loudest, was one of the staunchest supporters of Governor Browne’s policy and of the old war party, and who has been accustomed to speak of the Natives in this House in language the most opprobrious and offensive, language which must have reached their cars and created feelings of irritation not likely to he easily allayed. Sir, I have reason to know that very great apprehension and alarm exists in the Native mind on this subject; that they dread a reversal of the pacific policy of the late Government, and a return to the policy of the sword of which the hon. member has so long "been a supporter. But, sir, the hon. member tells ns that all that is changed; that a magic despatch from the Duke of Newcastle has worked his conversion —that having been informed that war will not he countenanced by the Horne Gevernrncnt he is now prepared to support pacific measures. Well, sudden conversions are not without precedent I remember a friend of mine who used to relate that travelling once in Yorkshire, he asked an hostler at an inn where he stopped, “ what sort of dog do you call that?” “ Why, sir,” the man replied, “ he were a mastiff, and we used to call him Lion, but master has cut his ears and his tall and made a greyhound of him, and now wo call him Fly.” 1 am afraid, sir, that greyhound would catch few hares, and I fear the Natives will be little inclined to trust the sincerity of one whose name they have only known in connexion with such unprepossessing antecedents. It may be that the names of the hon. members Mr. Bell and Mr. Mantell may counterbalance the hon. member at the head of the Government, but as the latter is not likely to retain office, I do earnestly press on the hon. member to find some coadjutor whose known friendliness to the Native race may redeem Ids Ministry from the imputation under which his own presence in it may cause it to labour. The hon, member then proceeded to comment on the propositions of the Ministry to raise a loan of a million sterling, to be expended in establishing frontier settlements consisting exclusively or almost exclusively of men; and requested that the Ministry would lose no time in giving to the House and the country further information on a subject which had created such surprise generally, and in some quarters such consternation and alarm.

The bon. Mr. DOMETT admitted that the Ministry was not exactly such as he wished, but be thought the burden of the two offices of Colonial Treasurer and Native Minister would not so completely overburden the hon. gentleman who held them as the hon. member for Uangitiki seemed to think. If he could accomplish the duties of the two offices in this House, there was not much fear that the outside duties would be too much for him With respect to the AttorneyGeneralship a motion on the paper showed that the House had not made up its mind with regard to the constitution of that office, and therefore he might be excused Iron nut having made permanent arrangements respecting it. 11c did not pretend absolutely to know the intentions of the Postmaster-General. The other hon. member was one that gave more satisfaction ft) tin’ country than the lion, member for Kangitikei seemed to imagine. Ho could not say that that hon. member fully represented the Northern Island, but they need not consider every member ns taking a nar

row view confined to his own local interests. The Ministry was confessedly shorthanded, but two offices had been held by one hon. member several times without any great inconvenience. They had all heard of the man who, on being told he had a very bad cough, said, “ I am very sorry, sir, but it is the best I’ve got.” He was very sorry that hon. members did not like his Ministry, but it was the best lie had got, and he was afraid it was the best Ministry the House had got. He did not allude to ability but to the fact that none of the leaders of the House had been able to form a Ministry, and if the House did not approve of the Ministry, he saw no alternative fatit a dissolution, a course which lie should be sorry should he necessary, as it would be very detrimental to the business of the country. The hon. member lor Rangitikci must have a singular idea of the Maoris and their habits of judging. What the hon. member had said about the effect upon the Maori mind was all moonshine. The hon. member for Wallace who had at least as much experience as the member for Rangitikci would tell them their need bo no fear on that score. He himself had always been willing to offer every measure of conciliation to the Maoris, but desired at the same time to show that if necessary we were prepared to take the other course. He remembered a time, when they both lived atNclson, when the honorable member for Rangitikci was more warlike in his sentiments titan himself (Mr. Domett). In reference to the colonization scheme,the motion was not the present Ministry’s own, but Sir George Grey’s. This was not the lime to go into the details of it, but ho hoped to bo able to bring down a Bill before the close of the session which would give the House an idea of the plan. With respect to the motion, which was after all a vote of want of confidence (no, no), the Ministry was quite willing to receive an accession of strength, if any hon. member would give it. The colleagues of the member for Rangitikci had refused to do so. The offer was still open. Mr. FITZGERALD thought the speeches just made proved that there was no real reason why the two hon. members (Mr. Domett and Mr. Fox) should not sit together on the same bench, and referred to the responsibility resolutions ns an additional proof. He believed the country was in such a state at the present moment that if any man could do it any good by taking part in the Government, it was his paramount duty not to allow any party reasons or questions of dignity to prevent it. He earnestly advised the hon. member for Rangitikci to throw aside the question of Premiership and accept with others of the late Ministry the offers made to them by the Colonial Secretary. Mr. STAFFORD conceived the nature of the tender made was not an invitation to the hon. member for Rangitikci to accept office in the Ministry. It appeared to him the very reverse of that. Referring to the hon. member for Ellesmere, he said that the conduct of that gentleman was such that if he were again asked by His Excellency to recommend a Ministry he should not feel that he would be absolutely right in proposing the name of the member for Ellesmere.

Mr. DOMETT' said his hon. colleague tor Nelson had rightly interpreted his remarks. He had merely stated that he had asked the members of the other Government to join, and the offer was still open; except that with regard to Mr. Fox, that gentlemen had given a final answer which precluded all further ncgociation. Mr. MOORHOUSE expressed the gratification he felt at seeing a few moments ago a chance of paltry political differences being sunk in the desire to fill up a gap that had been seriously felt. He regarded the hon. member for Nelson (Mr. Stafford) as the destroyer of this spirit. The country would derive the greatest advantages if the hon. member would enter the Ministry without standing upon dignity, and he did not see any difficulties in the way. The wants felt by the country might be fully supplied from the opposition benches. They wanted a Treasurer, and a Treasurer might well be found there, ami a political leader too. The hon. member for Rangitikci ought to offer his services to the other side, and take a secondary position, and there was an opportunity now for an individual in a secondary position to take the major share of credit. Who so fitted as the hon, member for Rangitikci to fill the Native department?

The hon. Mr. BELL assured the member for Ellesmere that the Government were perfectly able to take care of themselves, and did not want Idm cither to make a policy for them or a ministry. The Colonial Secretary had made a statement which would probably have been satisfactory to tbe hon. member; but the member for Ellesmere had. as usual, succeeded in drawing a red herring across the scent, and by misinterpreting the words of the Colonial Secretary, placed him in a painful position. However gratifying it might be to him (Mr. Bell) to hear the compliment which his hon. friend was continually paying, he could not appreciate their remarks when the whole scope of them was to turn him out; for that must be the result of the entrance of Mr. F'ox into the Ministry. [To show the circumstances attending the formation of the present Ministry, the hon. member read the following minute.] PRIVATE CIRCULAR. Wellington August r>, IB‘J2. For the purpose of avoiding misconstruction ns to the reasons which have induced me to decline joining tbe present Government under Mr. Domett, I make the following minute ; The result of the division and the tenor of the debate in the House of Representatives upon Mr. Fox’s resolution respecting Ministerial Responsibility cleaily showed that it would be hopeless 10 attempt to cany through the Assembly the measures deemed by Government essential to their Native policy. They accordingly tendered their resignations to I s is Excellency on Tuesday morning last. After several ineffectual attempts to form a new Government, Mr. Domett undertook to do so On tbe following day Mr. Domett proposed to me to join him. 1 understood from him that he desired that Mr. Fox, Mr. C. Ward, Mr. Wood, and myself (in fact, the members of the old Government), should join linn, he being at t tc head ol the new Government. 1 told him I thought the question with Mr. F’ox would be one of precedency. So lar as I was individually concerned I had no personal objection to such a combina, ion. 1 told him at t|ie same time I thought that the question of precedency mo insignificant to be mooted ; and that i' would be equally his duty, as Mr. Fox’s, to waive such a poiu* if it became an obstacle to the a.rangernent.

I afterwards saw Air. Donn-tt and Mr. Fox together. I said to them the same thing. I added, that in my opinion the one who under present circumstances waived the question ol piecedency would stand highest in public estimation. I understand, however, that neither Mr. Domett nor Mr. Fox would waive the point, and so tbe negociation terminated.

I had no further communication with any one formally on the subject of a reconstruction of the Government till Friday last, when Mr. Crosbie Ward informed me that a proposal had been made to him that he and I and Mr. Wood should join Mr. Domett without Air. F’ox. Altera conference with Air. Ward I reduced my views in writing in tbe following Memorandum :

“ It has been proposed to Mr. C. Ward, Mr. Wood, and myself, without Mr. Fox to join Mr. Domett's Government. This proposal I have, for myself, declined.

“ I am, however, deeply impressed with the necessity of settling the Government without delay on a fixed basis, so as at all events to carrv on and complete the work of the Session without further interruption. The circumstances ofthe Colony require tins. •• I should have desired greatly that the present Government should have bee i permitted to carry through and complete their proposed measures of Native policy. All parties agree that this must be done. The question of reconstituting the Government should have been, in my opinion, postponed till these measures were settled. But the temper of the House of Representatives has been so decidedly manifested the other way, that it is usele-s to consider that view ot the case. “Two points may be regarded as settled by the House of Representatives : “First.—That effect shall be given to Sir. George Grey’s Native policy. “ Secondly.—That the Government shall be re-con-structed.

“Anew circumstance is that Sir George Grey has committed to Air. Domett the formation of a new Government.

“ Accepting’these conditions, it is, in my opinion, the duty of all public men, without regard to personal or party considerations, to unite in constructing lor Sir George Grey the best Government which the case will admit. The question is how to do this. “ 1. It is above all things desirable, if possible, that we should present to the Natives the appearence of an united Government representing the whole mind of the Colony, and not party or sectional div sions. “2. In a B3Condary degree, it is in portant that the work begun should not have the appearance to them ol being deranged or materially changed by party divisions in the Assembly. I may add, that J think it desirable that as far as possible there should be no material change in the agents engaged in it. "3. The task of carrying the proposed measures through the Assembly should as iar as possible, be left practically to those who have prepared and are responsible for them. “ If these propositions are, as I believe them to he, true, the position of n Government formed of new elements, and in exclusion of Mr. L'ox, would in my opinion be a false one. It would be one which the Natives would he certain to regard with suspicion ; and of which, I am equally convinced the Colony at large would not approve. 1 by the term 4 in exclusion of Mr, Fox' a OovenmuiiH from which Mr, Ft* iball

be intentionally excluded, If Mr. Fox should decline on personal considerations to join the Government, no responsibility will rest on those who succeed him. “I think, therefore, (measures being agreed on ) Mr. Domett would take a right course in now distinctly and finally proposing to Mr. Fox to take his place in the Government —Mr. Domett being Colonial Secretary and Mr. Fox Native Minister; and lam decidedly of opinion that if such a proposal be made, it is the duty of Mr. Fox and his friends to accede to it without allowing the question of precedency to be raised. Sir George Grey has practically decided that point, and I am satisfied the Colony at large will, in the present circumstances, demand from every one acquiescence in that decision.

“At the same time, for practical purposes, it will be impossible that the Native and other measures prepared and matured by the old Government (and which are to be substantially adopted by the new) can he properly introduced, explained, or defended, except by their authors.

“It would also be necessary for Mr. Fox, as Native Minister, to be in direct communication with Sir George Grey upon all matters connected with his Department. “ Such, in my opinion, is the arrangement demanded by the circumstances ol the Colony at the present crisis ; and which ought now, without any reference to past negocialions, to he proposed to Mr. Fox in a distinct form. lam equally of opinion that it is his duty to accede to it.

“ If, on such a proposal being now distinctly made, Mr. Fox should finally decline to join the Government, it is, in my opinion, the duty of all public men to unite in assisting Sir George Grey by framing the best Government which the circumstances will admit, and that without delay, so as to allow the work of the Session to proceed without interruption. “ If Mr. Domett should refuse to accede to such an arrangement with Mr. Fox, 1 shall consider it my dmy individually to decline joining the Government under Mr. Domett. At the same lime I consider circumstances of the country are such that no impediment ought to be thrown in the way of a new Government : and, that the business ofthe Session should be facilitated by all possible means without further party struggles to which I will, personally, be no party. “11. S.”

Mr. Ward and Mr. Wood concurred in those views. I left the Memorandum with Mr. Fox that he might consider and consult his friends upon it. I read the Memorandum to Mr. Bell, and authorised him to convey to Mr. Domett an intimation from me of its contents; and to inform Inin that if Mr. Fox declined to join him, except as Premier, I (and I believed Mr. Ward and Mr. Wood also) would assist Mr. Domett in forming his Government, On Sunday evening Mr. Bell read me a note from Mr. Domett declining to make any fresh proposal to Mr. Fox.

On Monday morning I received the following note from Mr. Fox :

“ Wellington, 4th August, ISG2,

“My dear Sewell,; —I intended to ride out to the Hutt tins morning to consult Fi'zherbert on the proposals made by Domett through you yesterday. But the more I think of the matter the more I am satisfied that it is a case in which 1 am my own best auviser, in which, in fact, 1 ought not to be guided by any oilier judgment than my own. “ It appears tha 1 Domett is now prepared to adopt our relations to the Governor—to pursue our policy —and to carry through the House the measures we contemplated and had prepared. “Why then this Ministerial crisis? It can be founded on none but mere personal considerations, and those it is evident affecting m>self, and myselt only. For he is willing to take us all as colleagues on the sole condition that I descend from the Framierifiiip and hold office under him. “My mind is quite made up. I will not do it. Domett’s conversion to our views may be a reason why if there be a general dedre in the House, he should he taken into our Ministry. It is no reason for re-constructing it and putting him at the head of it. “ Fray consider this as final. I have o.ily to add that, of course, I release you and my other colleagues from all obligations to adopt my view. You aic all peifectly free to act for yourselves. “ Believe me, yours very sincerely, “(Signed) William Fox.” I afterwards saw Mr. Fox, with some of his friends, but without coming to any decisive result, and as time did not allow the negotiation to be further prolonged 1 w oto the following note to Mr. Bell.— “ August 4, 18(12. My DEAR Bell, —I find that it would be impossible to give a decided answer to Domett by- the time fixed by him, viz., two p.m. It will therefore be right, and on the whole best to let matters proceed without reference to any negotiations with us. “ Domett will therefore form his Ministry without us.

“ Yours sincerely, “(Signed) Henry Sewell.” —Not one of the present Ministry had sought office; but had taken it simply because the necessities of tbe country seemed to require it. He admitted the weakness of the composition of the present ministry; but how could they help it? ami alter the responsibility resolutions and the land policy they hail enunciated, was the hon. member for Rangitikci strong enough to turn them out? At present they retained the confidence of the House, both parliamcntarily speaking as holding their scuts, and in fact. The hon. member for Rangitikci need not fear tiic effect Mr Domett’s name would have upon the natives, tor the knowledge of there being now at the right hand of Sir G. Grey his friend and champion of old days, who had stood up for him in times when it was considered a crime to be a friend of Sir George Grey,— that knowledge had been received with that kind of feeling among’the natives which left no doubt whatever of their having confidence in his administration. There would never have been a ministry in New Zealand that would in so short time have had so fully the confidence of the native chiefs as the present ministry, because when they saw that it included the names of Domett, Mantell, and Bell, they would have confidence that pacific measures, bused upon a recognition of their just rights, and a desire to unite them in a common interest with ourselves, would be carried out. There was no fear that the ministry would be able to win the confidence and support of the natives, and his lion, friend the member for Rangitikci, it he should not he called again to those scats, would still have the opportunity, in ins own district, of telling the natives hv whom he was surrounded that, whatever might be the changes of ministry, there was no intention of any party to do anything but support Sir George Grey in Ids determination, if possible, under the grace of God, to arrive at a peaceful solution ot our present difficulties. He invited the hon. member, if not able himself to form a ministry, at least to assist them when, on a lair trial, they should be found to have the confidence of the colony; and to those who were in the position of not having made that final refusal which his hon. friend the member for Rangitikci had, he would say, “Let us unite, if possible, to form a government that shall be strong in the eyes of the colonists as well as the natives; and if unable to supplant us, don’t say that we deal unfairly if wo say we will resort to no discreditable expedients to carry on the business of the country; but, let the labour be what it may, we will do our best.”

Mr. WILSON licked ministers, having been forced by the House into oflice, to take no dictation from any bon. member in it; but to do the best to carry out the policy they had enunciated, though there should he blanks amongst them. Mr. COLENSO expressed his sorrow that the debate should ever have arisen at all, and especially that the bon. member should have made the remarks he did with reference to the effect this ministry would have on the native mind. With the Hawke’s Bay natives at all events, the name of Mr. Domett would prove a tower of strength. Mr. J. C. RICHMOND thought the effect of the ministry on the European minds should be considered as much as on the natives. It was a great relief to the Europeans that the member for Rungitikei was no longer at the head of the ministry, representing, as he did, the policy of pure concession. No man in the House, he was sure, could be more free from party spirit than the hon. head of the present government. Mr. CARGILL said that the resolution, if earned, must evidently have the effect of unseating the ministry (pio, no), in which case they were told there must be an appeal to the country; but upon what? There appeared to be no great difference of opinion as to the policy to be adopted. All this was a mere sorting up of parties. There was nothing to appeal to the country upon; it would be a monstrous absurdity, a waste of time, to postpone the business; and with what result? To send back l‘J out of 20 of the present members. He should therefore not support the motion. Mr. WELD said it would not be lor (he advantage of public business if this motion were withdrawn. It was a very proper motion under our system of party government. The bon. mover appeared to want a second trial of strength, and if this question were withdrawn, more time would be lost in the same way. The question resolved itself into this, —could the country he governed without the hon. member for Rangitiki. He (Mr. Weld) thought it could, and better without him than with. To combine him with the present ministry would be to effect one of those extreme coalitions which always led to confusion. A ministry composed of elements so discordant, would go to pieces at the first breath. He hoped the question would be settled now, and that there would then be no further party fighting this session The great (Mi

. o-cncc and ability of the present ministry was the more remarkable as they were shorthanded. In a short space of time they had brought down several useful measures of the greatest importance. Mr. CROSBIE WARD said the House could scarcely come to a division on this resolution, because it was not of such a nature as to admit of it. being simply a demand for information; and if the hon. mover were satisfied with the information lie had already received, the motion could hardly bo pressed to a division He (Mr. W.) had seriously considered, in the last few days, whether the time had not come when he ought to take the offer made by the lion, member at the head of the government, and still held open; and the hue Colonial Treasurer and Attorney General agreed with him in this. He would rather see work well performed, and assist any ministry to do it, than see it badly performed by his friends. In order to carry on those matters belonging to his department which he had commenced, and add, if possible, to the stability of the government at this crisis, he was now ready to Join them; and if tomorrow' the hon. gentleman at the head of the government repeated his offer, he would accept it. (Cheers.) The hon. Mr. DOMETT would be extremely happy to accept of the hon, gentleman’s services, and now made the offer publicly. Major RICHARDSON said, it the late Colonial Treasurer would favour the House with a few remarks ho would he g...d to hear him. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) Mr. WOOD said that when he took office last session, it was under circumstances of a peculiar nature known to some of his friends in this House, hut respecting which he did not think it necessary to enlarge on the present occasion. Those circumstances no longer existed, and when he sent his resignation to the Governor, a fortnight ago, lie had fully intended that it should be final. Any services that he could render to any government must neccssailly be slight, but it they were considered to he of any value at all, and if it was, rs it appeared to be, the wish of those who had supported him—he meant the majority of representatives of the province of Auckland (hear, hear), and as it also appeared to he the general wish of the House (hear, hear, and dicers), he did not think it would he consistent with his duty to decline to render such services as lay in his power to render in the present critical juncture of affairs. He therefore placed his services at the disposal of Mr. Domett. (Loud cheering.) Major RICHARDSON expressed his cordial thanks to the member for Rangitikci tor bringing forward this motion, which had led to so gratifying a result; and to the hon members for Parnell and Lyttlcton for the handsome and courteous manner in which (hey had responded to the invitation of the Colonial Secretary and hon. members generally. They now had a ministry strong in the house, in the eyes of the country, and one which he believed would bo strong in the eyes of the mother country also. The Hon. Mr. MAN FELL assured the House that it was his intention to have retained office until he found a better man to take his place. That time had now arrived, to his intense delight. The lion, member for Lyttlcton had rendered every possible assistance to him in his new office: he took this opportunity to thunk him for that; and also the hon. member for Rangitikci and others, who had contributed to his own happy release. (A laugh ) Mr. STAFFORD, on rising, was reminded by the Speaker that he had spoken before. He did not consider, he said, that he had addressed the House before, but had risen in explanation merely. He was only going now, however, to express his satisfaction that he did not address the House before, or they might not have had a result so gratifying to himself as well as to the House. (Laughter.) The Hon. Mr. GILLIES was placed in a most unfortunate position, that he could not, like his two colleagues, find a successor. Had he not had strong hopes that a more worthy successor would bo found to till his place before the end of the session, he would not have accepted the position, and he now hoped the late Attorney General would show the same spirit, and act as his colleagues had acted, so that he might not be ini’ch longer in the position of Attorney-General pro tern.

The lion Mr. DOMETT expressed his gratification at and accepted the offer of the member for Parnell. The offer was equally open for the late Attorney General, if he woulij consent. (Hear, hear.) Mr. RUSSELL said, but for the very happy turn the debate had taken, he should ha\c noticed the personal allusions made to him by the hon. member for Rangitikei; he would not do so now. He was quite satisfied with the result, and was glad that he had been instrumental in bringing about so desirable a result. He would however say, that the hon. member for Rangitikei had misrepresented him when he had attributed to him extreme war opinions. Since the arrival of Sir George Grey, and the announcement of his policy, he (M. 11.) held that there was but one course open to us, and that was to endeavour peacefully to settle the native question, lieforc he sat down he would allude to the very ungenerous attack made by the hon. member for Rangitikei upon a gentleman who once held a seat in this House (Mr. Firth), who, during the last session, represented the City of Auckland West. When that gentleman held a seat in this House, he ably took bis part, and before his censures the hon. member for Rangitikei bad more than once turned pale; and had that gentleman now a seat in this House, that attack wouldu ot have been made. Mr. FOX, in rising to reply sJd, it was usual on the conclusion of a successful melodrama, that an epilogue should be spoken; and as the duty of speaking it appeared to devolve on him, he would trespass for a few moments on the patience ol the House. The hon. member then administered a severe erstigation to the hon. member for Cheviot (Mr. Weld) lor his having persisted, in spite of his (Mr. F.’s) assertions lo the House in his opening address, in alleging that this motion was intended as a party one. It was usual for gentlemen to give each other credit fur speaking the truth, and the hon. member’s conduct on this, as on many similar occasions, he was sorry to say did not tend to raise his character for candour in the eyes of the House. The hon. member (Mr. Fox) then proceeded to comment on various points raised during the debate, pointing out particularly the unconstitutional conduct of the member for Nelson (Mr. Stafford), who, after having declined to attempt to form a ministry, advised his Excellency to send for Mr. Fitzgerald, who in his turn acted as improperly in advising his Excellency on the subject. The only persons to whom his Excellency had a right to look for advice were his sworn councillors, and when Mr. Stafford declined, his Excellency should again have sent for him (Mr. Fox), and requested further advice, a id so on till some one was found successfully to undertake the task. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. Fox) attributed no blame to his Excellency, who was new to the practice of Responsible Government; but the hon. members for Nelson and Ellesmere were not, and they ought to have declined respectfully to put themselves in the place of his Excellency’s responsible advisers in the matter. He (Mr. F.) hoped that this instance would not he drawn into a precedent. The hon. member then commented on the inconsistency between the resolution of the House of 1861, on the subject of ministerial relations in native affairs passed on the motion of the hon. member for Wallace, with those passed by the House on the motion of the present government, cot tending that Mr. Hell had entirely receded from the position taken by him in 1861. The hon. member expressed his feelings of gratitude towards his late colleagues for the manner in which they had supported him during their joint tenure of office, and particularly during the late ministerial crisis, and then concluded as follows. “ Sir, 1 retire from the ministry with entire satisfaction to myself. I consider that my mission has ended, for the present at all events. Previously to the session of 1860, 1 had almost retired from colonial politics, and was living in retirement on my farm in the Rangitikei. Rut the unhappy events of the Taranaki war forced me, on the meeting of the Assembly of that year, into the position of leader of a party in this House, whose business it was to stand between the natives and the great injustice which was being perpetrated upon them, and to avert, if possible, the calamities which the then government was preparing for the whole population of this island. Sir, we fought that battle on the floor of this House, and gained all the substantial fruits of victory. Wc exposed the falsity of the statements which Governor Browne had made to the Homo Government on the events of the Waitara purchase; wc denounced the unhappy war into which lie had plunged the colony; we compelled the attention oi the home public and the home government to the subject; and we take credit to ourselves for having • been instrumental in forcing the Colonial Office, however reluctlantly, lo recall Governor Browne, and to replace him by the man to whom wo all look as the day-star under whose guidance we arc to find our way out of our present difficulties. Sir, we stayed the sword—wo averted the great crime of the extermination of the native race, and the ruin, destruction, and beggary of the European settlements ol this island, which, it appears from Governor Browne’s despatch of the 6th July, 1861, it was his intention to bring upon us. Sir. this was our mission, and we accomplished it. But we did more—we rendered it impossible that such a stum of things should again occur. No Government and no Governor will dare lo repeat in this colony the episode of Waitara. The spirit which led to such a catastrophe has been laid. We shall hear no more on the floor of tins House the roar of the British lion. I allude not to that British lion whose flag has often floated over the great commanders of our parent state, but that miserable imitation which we have sQtffi in this Hpusg Sir, Ms teeth are cirawrh-4

trust for ever, and his claws pared, and I firmly believe that, for the future, there is, under Providence, no possibility of the renewal of any such policy as that which Governor Browne indicated when, in the despatch I hare referred to, he urged the Home Government to enable him with fire and sword to devastate this island and exterminate the native race—for that is what is meant by the document which he addressed to the Home Government the very day after the Stafford [Ministry was turned out of office, and when the unpleasing prospect was before him of being controlled by advisers with other views. Sir, it was, I say, our mission—the mission of myself and those with whom I have acted since 18(10, to avert those evils—we have averted them, and 1 repeat that for myself I retire with great satisfaction to those less onerous pursuits in which I was engaged before the emergency of the last unhappy war forced me into a position of political prominence (loud cheers). Mr. WELD disclaimed any intent of conveying such a meaning by anything he had said as the member for llangitikei supposed. Mr. STAFFORD also made an explanation. Mr. FOX asked permission to withdraw the motion. Motion withdrawn. MESSAGE FROM THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. The SPEAKER announced that he had received a message from the Legislative Council informing the House that they had passed without amendments “A Bill to amend 1 Tue Bills of Sale Registration Act, 185(3,’ ” and “A Bill to authorise the issue of Crown Grants iu certain cases.” ADJOURNMENT. The House th*n adjournal at about a quarter to eleven o’clock till five o’clock 10-morrow. THURSDAY, AUGUST 21st. The Speaker tcoktho chair at 5 o’clock. U AUERS. Hon. Mr. DOMETT laid on the table papers relative to the appointment of Mr. Justice Gresson. DISTRICT COURTS. Mr. HARRISON asked the Colonial Secretary—1. Whether it is the intention of Government to make any provision for carrying out the “ District Courts Act, 1858,” by the establishment of Courts? —and, 2. Whether it is the intention of Government to include Wanganui in the Circuit of the Supreme Court for the Middle District, and when it may be expected that a sittings will be held there. Hon. Mr. DOMETT replied that the “District Courts Act ” was not intended to he acted on by the present Government, as it was not intended by the late Ministry, in consequence of a resolution of the House last session. Measures to supply its place were now before the Legislature. With respect to the latter question he could scarcely reply without consultation with Mr. Justice Johnstone, but the feelings of the Government were strongly iu favour of there being such a Court at Wanganui. A MESSAGE. A Message from the Legislative Council was received, informing tire House that they had passed the Southern Boundaries B 11, and requesting the concurrence of the House. Bill read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time. CROWN LANDS RILL. Hon. Mr. RUSSELL brought up the report ot the select Committee on the Crown Lands Bill, Ordered to be considered in Committee of the whole to- morrow. LAW PRACTITIONERS’ BILL. Hon. Mr. GILLIES brought up the report of the Joint Conference on the Law Practitioners’ Act. LOSSES IN WRITE SWAN. Mr. WILLIAMSON brought up the interim report of the committee on compensation for losses sustained by the wreck of the steamer White Swan, requesting all members of the Assembly, or persons engaged in the public service, who sustained such loss, to send in a statement of such losses at once. APPOINTMENT OF SUPKEM COURT JUDGES. Mr. ST A FI'ORD, in moving,—“ That, in the opinion of this House, the tenure ot office of Judge of the Supreme Court ought to be assimilated as nearly as may be, lo that of Judges ot England. That the Judges of the Supreme Court ought not to he removable except by Her Majesty on an address from both Houses of the General Assembly; and should only be liable to suspension by the Governor on a like address. That for the next ten years the appointment of Judges should be will) her Majesty; but to be exercised on the recommendation of some of the Judges of the Superior Courts in England, who may be from time to time designated in that behalf by the Colonial Government on behalf of the Colony. That a respectful address be presented to His Excellency the Governor, praying him to take the necessary steps towards effecting the abov -named objects,”—said there was an especial reason whv he should move in this matter, because during bis Government the existing tenure of Judges was altered. When they came lino office there w«s nothing to prevent the dismissal of Judges by the Governor at any time. nc of their first acts was to briny down resolutions, such as those on the paper, and thev were passed and sent lio ne to be made into law. \ir. Labouchcro replied that the objects desired would bo better secured by local enactment; but to the fifth resolution, corresponding to the third of the present series, they took objection, in accordance with which lie would ;isk leave to amend that resolution. An Act had been passed, in 1858, carrying out the resolution with one exception. But that Act effected more than was ever intended, and more than lie remembered haring assented to, having held for so long a time a strong opinion to the contrary. Believing that an error was committed in allowing that Act to have ihe effect now assigned to it by the Law Advisers of the Crown, it was now incumbent on him to take the earliest opportunity ot projxrsing an alteration. Flic strongest safeguards should be thrown round the position of the higher judges, and till such safeguards had been established in England, there was not that security of obtaining justice that there now is. [The hon. member here quoted from ilallam to show the vacillation and partiality of judges so long as their tenure of office was dependent on the Government of the day and Star Chambers.] It was only when they were made independent of such influence, that was secured that purity of the judicial bench which was now the admiration of all nations. He doubted if Judges Gresson and Johnston would have come out had they known they were to be under such a tenure as was implied by the' Act of 1858. He now proposed that for a limited time the Colonial Government should be deprived of the power of appointing judges, except so far as having the nomination of a judge of one of the superior Courts of England, on whose recommendation our judges should be appointed. To meet Lord Taunton’s objection, he would amend it by inserting the words “by the advice of the Ministers of the Crown in Great Britain.”

Mr. JOLLIE luid great pleasure in seconding the motion. It was the duty of the House to carry out the object os soon as possible. He did not think the existing system was one which ought to be continued. The Hon. Mr. GILLIES cordially concurred with the sentiment expressed by the lion, member for Nelson as to the great desirability of preserving the purity of the judicial bench above suspicion, but he did not sec that these sentiments were arguments for his present motion. He did not, however, intend to oppose the first two motions, as there could be no real harm done by them, but the third he would oppose to the utmost otitis power. The hon. member’s arguments, in fact, only applied to the first two resolutions. There were no grounds, however, for any suspicion that the power given by the Act of 1838, would bo abused by both Houses of this Legislature, the Executive, and the Governor. He denied the possibility ot such a thing, and that there was any need to go further than the Act of 1838.

Mr. O’ROKKB inquired if, in assimilating to the tenure of the English Judges, it was intended to exclude them from seats in the Legislature as they were in England, except the Master of the Rolls? Mr. STAFFORD was not aware they were so excluded. The Lord Chancellor sat there.

Mr. FOX: Undoubtedly he did, but it was a very anomalous position, lie considered that judges should not sit iu the Legislature, to be biassed by political influence. He should not oppose the first two resolutions, regarding them as insignificant; but he considered it was going back from the principles of self government we have been working on for years. Ihe third he should certainly oppose. Mr. STAFFORD having replied, The first and second resolutions were agreed to. Mr. STAFFORD moved the third resolution with the following amendment: —to insert the word “ exercised ” with the advise of the Ministers of the Crown iu Great Britain.

Mr. WELLS seconded the motion. Mr. GILLIES felt it his duty, as an individual member of the House and as a Minister, to give this resolution his most strenuous opposition. It was a libel on the Colony, and a libel ou the profession to which he belonged. The Home Government had, moreover, expressed their opinion against it in replying to a Despatch by Colonel Gore Browne. The fact of a judge having taken part iu local politics was no disqualification for the office. Ju England they were invariably political appointments, and ho contended that political men were better qualified to sit on the bench and judge on the motives and actions of men than those who were shut up from the world. He saw no reason why wo should depart from the practice at home, of appointment by Kespisible Minister?, The elesire to preserve

the purity of the Bench would alone be sufficient, even when politics are highest, to prevent the appointment of improper persons from political motives. Why should they thus so debar the men of the profession from aspiring to high honor—reach one day this high h onor would, he contended, tend to lower the character of the profession. Some of the first judges in the Australian Colonies had been practising attornies in those Colonies. . . ~ Mr. WELD said this resolution involved considerable difficulty. There was great weight in the argument that by depriving the bar of this Colony of the power of attaining its highest prizes, its tone would be lowered, lie would advise the lion, mover to shorten the term he proposed, but the difficulty would not bo seriously felt even within ten years, he thought. He did not see, however, why the Colony should exercise its power with its own hands. The question resolved itselt into this—ls this the best way to get judges or not? He thought it was, and should support the resolution; but he was sorry the bon. member had added the words which he had. He trusted, however, that it would not really affect the appointment by the judge. Mr. BELL' regretted he could not agree with tha opinions just expressed by the bon. member lor Cheviot. The principle advanced in the resolution was this, that at some future time the Colony would be fit to exercise a responsibility which it was not fit to exercise now. If there was anything in tho argument that it was desirable to withhold this power from the Colonial Government for ten years, there was far greater reason why it should be withheld after that time, for the Legislature would never be more independent and public spiiited than now. But he should oppose the resolution chiefly because he believed we ■were not justified in withholding from the colonists of this country the aspiration to the highest offices of state. But, apart from that injustice, we had now at the present time in the Colony men as perfectly fitted for the position of the judges of the Supreme Court ns any who could bo induced to come out from England, in instance of which he motioned C. W. Richmond, whom the greater part of the people of this Colony would rather see on the Bench than any one whom you could get from England for £ISOO a year. There were members of the Bar now in the House, members of Universities, from whom it would be a cruel injustice to withhold that advancement in the profession which they had a right to look for. He did not believe they would have any one at the head of affairs within these ten years, who would dare so to exercise his power as to give the Bench an appearance of corruption and partiality. If there were the indignity of the coramunity r would drive him from the place he so prostituted. Mr. J. C. RICHMOND could not agree to the resolution. He believed, with the Native Minister, that the Legislature and Executive were more to be trusted now than ten years hence; and if the Legislature should become corrupt this resolution would not restrain them at all.

Mr. MOORHOUSE could not vote for the resolution. There were material reasons why we should preserve this power in our own hands. We wanted a “ Bar ” liere. Public opinion and an educated Press were quite sullicicnt to restrain immoral propensities on the part of the judges. The business of the judge was simply to interpret the law. it was a common thing forjudges in England to assist their memory by reference to members of the Bar on points of law. But here there was no Bar, and judges were without that assistance, which was really a material one. We should publish to the world that we want members of the Bar here, even if only such as arc junior counsel in England. But if this resolution were passed, that chance was gone. lie did not agree with the Native Minister that in ten years the Legislature would not be so pure and independent as now. He believed that society would progress in all that was valuable, year after year. No members of the English Bar would come out here knowing that they had to wait some years before they could look for advancement in his position. The resolution ought to read this way, that after ten years judges should be appointed by Her Majesty, taking tea years to prove the fallacy of his idea, and of the Ministry’s. Mr. OARLETON, after refeuing to many of the arguments which had been used against the resolution as savouring of stump oratory, proceeded to support the resolution. He did not think that the Executive of this Colonv was to be trusted as the Executive in England; not'that they were worse men, but in England there was a public opinion which they must fear, while here public opinion was almost dead, with regard to political corruption. If anything could raise the character of this Colony, it would be the drafting into it some of the ablest men of the English Bar; and we should be gratefe 1 to the home country if it would send them. Mr. FOX read a memorandum by the late AttorneyGeneral on the question, expressing the opinion that the Colonial Government ought not to give up their right of appointment, though the recommendation of an English judge would be advamageous. Supposing the House legislated as the hon. member proposed, he did not think Her Majesty’s Ministers would undertake the duty. After what the Duke of Newcastle and Mr. Laboucherc had already wiitten, it would seem extremely probable that they would reply “ act for yourselves.” On the hon. member’s for Cheviot theory it might be said that we should refer all important questions to the Home Government. If it was so necessary, on account of local influences and our political’ comiption that we should refer the appointment of the higher judges to the Home Government, why did we appoint the judges for the minor Court which it was just as ueccssary should be pure as the higher ones? And not only judicial officers, but the same might be said of the Speaker of this House, or other high officers. But what security had we that even by an Euglish judge a fitting man would be recommended? He had no fear that under our present svstem we should in any way lower the character of our courts. He cordially concurred with the AttorneyGeneral that the proposition was an insult to the lawyers of this Colony. If he were in general practice in this conntrv, and were able to afford it, and this resolution were canied, he would refuse ever again to go into the Supreme Court of this Colony. Hon. Mr. DOMETT could not agree with these resolutions. He thought we were in no danger now of any such debasement of the character of the Bench as had been spoken of. There was a public opinion in this Colonv; New Zealand could make the boast “We are a people yet.’’ Another reason was, that were we should get one man sent out as judge we should get fifty come out to try for those prizes, if open to them; half of which, perhaps, would be as well qualified as the man sent out. He would vote against the motion. Mr. STAFFORD replied at some length, inquiring, with reference to the remark of the Native Ninister, why Mr. Richmond had not had the offer of the judgeship for Otago. Believing that one day manj lion, gentlemen who now opposed him would think as he did, he should call for a division, even if he stood Mr. FOX, in explanation, expressed his regret that Mr. Richmond's name had been drawn into this debate. No such ofler had been made because the late AttoueyGcncral had positively declined to take any step in the matter till a sufficient salary had been voted and placed on the Civil list. Had they remained in office, it was more than probable that offer would have been made. The question was then put and negatived on the following division: — . Ayes: —Messrs. Stafford, Curtis, Nixon, Butler, Carleton, Weld, Wilson, Wells, and James WiliiamS °Noes:—Messrs. Domett, Wood, Mantell, Hat.lson, Bell, J. C. Richmond, C. J- Taylor, Moorhouse, Cargill, Russell, Richardson, Colenso, Watt, Munro, Atkinson, Dick, Fitzherbcrt, G. Graham, J. O’Neill, W. W. Taylor, O’Rorke, Carter, R. Graham, Thomson, John’Williamson, Renall, Featherston, Gillies, Fox, Brandon, Henderson, Mason, Rhodes, and Cookson. —34. Mr. STAFFORD then moved the fourth resolution, and wished to know whether the Government would prepare the necessary legislation. Hon. Mr. DOMETT said the Government would bo prepared to bring down a Bill to legalize the principal resolution. Motion agreed to.

POSITION OF THE ATTOENEY-GENEEAL.

Mr. STAFFORD, in moving, “ That, in the opinion of this House, the duties of the office of a Minister of Justice should not be exercised by the AttorneyGeneral, and that the latter officer should not necessarily be a member of the Executive Council ot New Zealand, nor his tenure of office necessarily determinable on the retirement from office of any particular Ministry,” said, this was a mere matter of convenience and expediency, and proceeded to show that it was only by an accident the Attorney-Goneral ever was made a Responsible Minister at all. It was very difficult to find a man suited for the office of AttorneyGeneral, and this was often a difficulty in changing a Ministry which should not be. But whether that officer was a Responsible Adviser or not, he should not be a Minister of justice. That function should be exercised by the lion, gentleman at the head of the Government himself, who should be responsible for all inteference with the administration of justice. To that extent his resolution was peremptory, the other provision was merely permissive, and not compulsory. ~ Mr. CARLETON seconded the motion, but naa nothing to say, the hon. mover having so compete y exhausted the argument. , „ Hon. Mr. GILLIES asked the mover whether he meant to give any Ministry the pon cr o app g permanent Attorney-General? Mr. STAFFORD explained that ho meant that when a Ministry resigned for political reasons, the

.Attorney-General should not be required to retire with ’ them. The new Ministry coming in might continue him in office, or request him to retire (hear, hear.) Hon. Mr, DOMETT would vote for the motion, ■believing that it would make the working of Rcspon siblo Government easier here.

Mr. FITZHERBERT strongly supported the motion, and spoke of bringing forward a motion to the effect that none of our judges should take part in the politics ■ of the country. Mr. HEN ALL moved as an amendment that all the words after “New Zealand” bo struck out. They ■were capable of a doable construction, and without them a now Ministry could always invite the Attorneyto continue in office, if they wished, Mr. STAFFORD accepted the amendment. .Amendment put and carried on the voices. Question put Motion as amended, agreed to. MESSAGE FROM THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL.

The SPEAKER announced that he had received a message from the Legislative Council, informing the House that they had passed the Supreme Court Act Amendment Bill, and they requested the concurrence of the House.

Bill read a first time, and ordered to bo read a second time to .morrow.

Also, an Act to amend the law relating to juries. Bill read a first time, and ordered to bo read a second time to-morrow.

Also, that the Council had passed a Bill to facilitate the Remedies on Promissory Notes, &c„ with an amendment. Amendment ordered to be considered to-morrow. NATIVE RESERVES. Hon. Mr. DILLON BELL moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Native Reserves Act, 1856.. Bill readua first time, and ordered to be printed, and to be read a second time to-morrow. WASTE LANDS BILL. Mr. JOHN WILLIAMSON moved for leave to bring in a Bill to authorise Charles St. John Herbert to select land in the Province of Auckland under the Waste Land Regulations thereof, as a retired military officer. Bill read a first time, ordered to be referred to the Joint Committee on Private Bills, to determine whether it be a private or public bill. Mr. JOHN WILLIAMSON moved for leave to bring in a Bill to authorise the issue of Grants for certain lands to Daniel Keefe and others. Bill brought in, read a first time, and also referred to the Joint Committee on Private Bills. GOLD-FIELDS’ BILL. Mr. CUOSBIE WARD moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the laws relating to the management of Gold fields within the Colony. Bill read a first time, ordered to be printed, and read a second time to-morrow. REMOVAL OF SEAT OF GOVERNMENT. Mr. DICK moved—“ That it is the opinion of this House that the interests of the Colony require the removal of the seat of Government to some place in Cook’s Straits.” The time was passed, he thought, when Auckland was the proper place for the seat of Government. Not having railway communication, the sent of Government should bo central. This Auckland was not; Dunedin was as central as Auckland, and as good a place for the seat of Government. (The hon. member hero quoted statistics to show that Otago was more important than Auckland.) If it came to a question between these two Provinces, then the preference would be given to Otago; but he thought in fairness it should be neither in one nor the other, but in a central position. By making Cook’s Straits the seat of Government, every place would be brought nearer except Auckland itself, or perhaps Taranaki. It had been argued that the Natives could only be governed from Auckland, but if the Natives only were to be considered, let the Southern people have separation at once. Otago had deeply felt its position in this respect. A reply from Melbourne might be generally got in a fortnight, while from Auckland it took a month. No wonder, then, the Otago people, almost as one man, had demanded separation; but in this they had only followed the lead of other Provinces, which now held back from the idea. Would they not then, help to make separation less necessary? If this resolution was negatived, there would be a louder cry for separation than ever: and such a cry could not be considered as of no consequence. He thought the present motion was the smallest modicum of justice he could ask for, and would do good to nearly every Province, and injury to none. Major RICHARDSON seconded the motion.

Mr. STAFFORD would at once dismiss from the consideration of the subject the question of vested rights. He could not conceive there could be such in a colony so young. He regarded it as a question of propriety, but doubted if this House were the best place in which to decide this question. He believed there was a more satisfactory manner of deciding in the question. In Canada, after long disputes, the case was submitted to Her Majesty ; but he was nof altogether prepared to recognise that as the best plan, for the decision of Her Ministers might be much influenced by the representation of some influential colonist. Though not much accustomed to refer to America, yet, in the constitution of the United States, he found a plan which, he thought, would be a fitting precedent for New Zealand to adopt, viz., that all the electors of New Zealand should each vote for two places which they considered most suitable. As he could not, however, suppose that any such proposition would deter the House from coming to a decision on this question tonight, the hon. mover was, he thought, bound to have made a more specific proposition than he had done. The hon. member did not say what place in Cooke’s Straits. It might be in a floating palace in the Straits; and, considering the earthquakes in this part of the colony, he was not sure that that would not be the best place for it. Supposing the hon. member, however, wished to have an earthly position, there* were three places in Cook’s Straits from which to select—Nelson, Picton and Wellington. Wellington was the oldest settlement in the colony ; has a magnificent harbor, and good communication with the East Coast. He would not say anything in disparagement of Wellington with regard to earthquakes. It was perfectly true Wellington hud suffered more from earthquakes than any place colonized in New Zealand [Mr. Russell: The earthquakes have done Wellington a deal of good.] He believed they had so far as raising the coast line was concerned. He did not think, however, that was any disparagement to Wellington, because they had proofs that there were more than one centre of earthquakes shocks, they having been felt in other places when none was felt in Wellington ; and there was just as many chances that any other part of the colony might be visited with as severe earthquakes as had visited Wellington. Wellington, he admitted, had largelclaims for this honour, but not the only claims. Nelson, as compared with Wellington, had two or three disadvantages—worse communication with the East Coast, and an inferior harbour, not suitable for a naval station. With reference to the Panama service, Nelson was at a disadvantage, as it would not admit the class of steamers likely to be employed on that service. It was, however, much more accessible than Wellington to the great centres of native population, and also to the West Coast, on which there was likely to be several large centres of population. These things put Nelson on an absolute equality with Wellington. Picton was a young colony, and had not progressed as it ought; but it possessed advantages over both Wellington and Nelson. It had as rapid communication with the East Coast as Wellington, with peculiar advantages in case of a southeaster; and with regard to the West Coast it stood in as good a position as Nelson. It had a magnificent harbour, with an inner harbour that could easily be fortified against an enemy. If a place in Cook’s Straits were to be selected, then he should place Picton first, and Nelson and Wellington indifferently for the second. But there was a larger question behind all this. He entirely sympathised with the position of Otago; and thought it a great pity that a minister had not been ( sent down to Otago some time ago, with great powers of enlargement of establishments, —full authority to meet the enquiries of each case as it arose. That and nothing else would have prevented the separation movement. (Question.) This was a large question, and ho was not going to record his vote on it without making sufficient explanation. He stated at once ho was going to vote against the motion. He was not to be caught by the ail captandum alteration of Wellington to Cook’s Straits. Ho knew what the hon. member meant by it, but it would not do. It could not convince him, because ho believed Auckland was the proper place at the present moment. Ho absolutely denied that a geographical centrality was at all necessary. Very few cases could be found in which it was so. Was London anything like the centre of the United Kingdom, or of England alone? There must be other considerations overruling this one of centrality. The position of Auckland of all others ho recognized ns having the largest amount of advantages. Auckland was not at the north extremity of the colony, but 180 miles from it, and its population was north of the city of Auckland, and would be seriously injured by a removal far south. At the time of the census the population of Auckland was oue fourth of the population of the whole colony. Then Taranaki, with a population of 2000, could be best cared for from Auckland. Napier with 2GOO was within an hour or two as near to Auckland as to Wellington. Adding these together wc had 3000 or i of the whole population in a position to be best governed from Auckland. Then the harbour of Auckland was unrivalled even by picton. It must f>c cashiered fjiGi, in moving the

seat of government from Auckland, they wore moving it from one-third of the population. If the hon. member proposed a removal to Dunedin, it would be nearly in the same position as Auckland with respect to population; but ho would get very little support for such a proposition. If this resolution were carried Auckland would immediately demand separation, and Otago would be no more satisfied with having the seat of government at Wellington than with its present position at Auckland. This motion he believed would effect no good result, but many evil ones; and if the hon. member were to substitute Nelson for Cook’s Straits he would vote against the motion, lie warned other hon. members of Nelson that they could not commit a more fatal injury to the interests of Nelson than to vote for this motion.

Mr. O’NEILL said : Sir, I rise for the purpose of expressing my thanks to the lion, member for Nelson for the impartial and manly speech made by him on the subject now before the House. I have ray doubts as to whether the hon. member for Dunedin is really in earnest in moving such a resolution, because I cannot understand what sympathy he can have with Wellington; and my doubts are strengthened by the fact that the hon. gentleman has placed himself in the proud rank of the “ new identity ” in Otago, which have raised a flag of a very different colour—that of separation; and 1 am sure the House will be glad to sec that the hon. member has a reasonable hope of leaving to his descendants that celebrated silver cup on which is to he engraven “ Great is the name of Dick.” Sir, I deny the right of this House to change the scat of government, that being a matter of sale between the Imperial Government and the settlers of Auckland who made purchases under the guarantee of both the colonial and the imperial authorities; therefore if Her Majesty’s Government, who alone can effect the change, considers it expedient go do so, they will accompany that decision by a declaration, that the injustice ami wrong shall ho repaired by a fair amount of compensation. 1 deny most emphatically that the interests of the colony requires that the seat of government should be removed to Cook’s Straits ; it is a matter of perfect indifference to the Middle Island provinces whether their communication is kept up by steamers to the Manukau or to Wellington, and especially is this the case now when we have superior steam ships plying on the coast. If a more central position is absolutely required, no one for a moment would say that Wellington is the most eligible position. I think that Picton of all others could lay claim to that supremacy. About 22 years ago, when Capt. Hobson took possession of these islands for Her Majesty, he planted a small town in the Hay of Islands, and immediately proceeded to look for a proper place for the young capital, which, after some time, he selected on the isthmus of the Waitemata (five miles wide), and every person who visits Auckland must pronounce it to be a most judicious choice for the capital of a colony. The superiority of Auckland is manifest to everyone who knows that Auckland has two great harbours ; its eastern harbour is one of the safest and best in this hemisphere, and that on the west large and commodious and from which the steamers now proceed to the Southern Provinces. Auckland has water communication by the river Kaipara, far to the northward and southward, for an immense distance inland by another magnificent river—the Waikato. Auckland has also the great rivers, Thames, Waipa, Tamaki, and many others, all of which taken in connection with the numerous creeks and arms of the sea, bringing, as it does, water communication to every settler’s doors, in fact all the natural advantages combined make Auckland a singularly judicious choice to bo the capital, both political and commercial, of a great colony; indeed, there is not another city with such advantages in this part of the world. Sir, before the scat of government can be removed, if one can judge from the debates of this session, you must first either remove or exterminate the native race from the Province of Auckland.

Mr. CAKLETON, after referring to the alteration made by the hon. member for Dunedin in his motion, said, he had thought some hon. member would have moved, before the question was discussed, “ that it be amended by the substitution of Wellington for Cook’s Straits.” The motion was now left indefinite, and this was all time thrown away, unless the motion was made more definite. The question was not one of convenience alone, as had been said, but “ a bargain’s a bargain,” and town property was acquired here at a pound an acre. The first sale in Auckland was £2OOO an acre' simply because it w f as a bargain that it was to be the seat of government. It might have been a bad bargain, he had made several bad bargains himself in his time, but, good or bad, a bargain should be kept to; and if the bargain was broken were hon. members prepared to pay compensation? [Major Richardson: Who were the contracting parties to this bargain?] It was given out publicly by the Government. [Mr. G. Graham: Lord John Russell and Lord Stanley, sir.] Mr. FOX said it was no use discussing this question, every one bad made up their minds about it. The arguments of the hon. member for the Bay were fallacies, especially that about the bargain. How could a bargain bind third parties who did not agree to it? But that was not the question; it was perfectly competent at any moment for the House to remove the seat of government where they pleased. His own serious and deliberate conviction was that there was no greater difficulty in governing from here than from Auckland, but rather less ; for by the seat of government being so close to the Waikato tribes they were kept in a constant uneasiness by the rumours proceeding from the seat of government. He thought they should proceed at once to a vote, every one’s mind being made up, Mr. G. GRAHAM enquired if this was what the hon. member for Kangitiki called face to face policy. He could not believe (hat the hon. gentleman thought that the natives could be governed so well at Wellington ns in Auckland. Hev. as surprised to hear hon. members from the south speak of Auckland as the extreme north, and would ask those that were ignorant of its real position to look at a chart and they would see that it was nearly 200 miles distant from the extreme north. Ho would call their attention to the number of fine rivers that ran into our harbours; and do what they would Auckland must become a great commercial city. He would remind them of the existence of the Bay of Islands, Mongonui, Hokiianga, and other ports where a great many foreign vessels annually called in for supplies, and where so many American whalers meet there should be some attention paid to British interests. Let it be remembered that the war at Kororarika was encouraged by these foreigners. He would remind them also that Auckland must remain for years the head quarters for the missionary bodies ; and none could question that it must continue the principal station for the navy and troops Situated ns Auckland was, with one of the finest harbours in the world on the cast, and at a distance of six miles another fine harbour on the west coast, nature seemed to have formed it as a fitting place for the seat of government for a great nation. He would also remind hon. members that the mineral wealth of Auckland promises to equal that of the most favoured parts of this fine country. With the gold at Coromandel, copper in many parts, the extensive coal beds, the convenience to the whale fisheries, and fine kauri forests, some thousands of people would be attracted to her, and her population is now about one-third oLthat of the whole colony. In his opinion it was the best place for the seat of government.

Mr. MOORHOUSE would never rest till Wellington was the seat of government; and notwithstanding what the member for Nelson had said about this being injurious to Nelson, he ventured to predict that next session so greatly would the inconveniences he felt, that there would be a positive majority not in favour of Cook’s Straits hut of Wellington, every southern member advocating it. On this question Canterbury was unanimous even now. With regard to centrality he held that it was a necessary quality of the seat of government, and he found by the map that Loudon was centrally situated with regard to all the important places in England. Auckland, no doubt, must always be a considerable community, but Otago must be a greater and no place in the southern island was standing still. He did not believe that the removal of the scat of government would affect the value of property in Auckland much; but if it did it was nothing to this House that extravagant prices had been given for property in Auckland. [Loud cries of “ divide.”] Mr. JOHN WILLIAMSON said, that no doubt his hon. friend supposed that he having spoken, Canterbury was of course “ unanimous,” for, indeed, it had been said that the hon. gentleman regarded himself as Canterbury. (Laughter.) Now he (Mr. W.) would venture to say that his hon. friend would be mistaken on this occasion Canterbury would not bo unanimous on the vote about to be taken. (Hear, hear.) In corresponding with the Government of the day on matters relating to his Province, no doubt the hon. member would prefer personal interviews to written communications. (Hear, hear.) Well, the means were now provided which would enable him to visit Auckland as frequently and almost as speedily as Cook’s Straits, and, indeed, he (Mr. W.) thought that occasional trips to Auckland would be of great value to his hon. friend, for he had observed with pleasure that whenever his hon. friend had honoured Auckland with a visit ho looked to bo exceedingly well and happy. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) In the early days of the Colony the complaints made by the people of the Southern Provinces because of their distance from the scat of Government, and the delays and inconvenience arising therefrom were not unreasonable. At that time the Government brig was almost the only means of communication between Auckland and the South, and her movements were slow enough. A very different state of things existed now. Our steam arrangements afforded opportunities of rapid intercourse between Utc chief port* wf tlic t'rorinccs—North an<!

South—and the complaints now urged on this ground wore not tenable. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member who had brought forward the motion had given the House some information relative to the statistics of Otago. Now, what the items of sheep and pigs, of cattle and goats, had to do with the question of the sent of Government he (Mr. W.) could not conceive. (Hear, hear.) Why did the hon. member omit the item of asses? (Laughter.) The remedy for the old grievance of distance from the seat of Government was found in the powers of local self-government provided in our Provincial institutions. (Hear, hear.) Almost everything in the way of Government that was required could be done by the Provincial Governments themselves. (Hear, hear.) He might instance the management of gold-fields. Powers relating to the management of them had been delegated to the Superintendents. [Mr. Dick; The powers arc not sufficient without reference to the Governor.] Well, they can shortly be obtained. Reference had very properly been made to the very efficient police force of that Province, and ho was glad to hear his hon. friend the Superintendent get credit for the establishment of that force. (Hear, hear.) The powers in the Provinces were very extensive. Everything relating to the peace, order, and good government within their respective boundaries could be accomplished for themselves, so that there was really no longer any excuse for the revival of the old agitation of the question of removal of the seat of Government. (Hear, hear.) Almost every argument that could he urged against this motion had been expounded by the hon. member for Nelson, whose speech ought to have been sufficient to convince the House of the inexpediency of entertaining this question. lie (Mr, W.) most cordially united with the hon. member for the Northern Division in thanking that hon. member for the part he had taken on this occasion. (Hear, hear.) In the consideration of this question, however, he must say that ho did not attach so much importance ns had been given to the prices paid for land by the first buyers at Auckland; he would rather ask the House to be guided by the considerations of greater moment which affected the Colony, and especially the Northern island, at the present time, (Hear, hear.) If they were sincere in their desire to leave to the Governor the untrammelled management of Native matters, they ought not to proceed to dictate to him the place from whence those affairs were to he conducted. (Hear, hear.) He could not sec how Dunedin was to he benefitted by the removal of the scat of Government to Cook's Straits, and urged the hon. mover to withdraw his motion.

Mr. WILSON, in reference to some remark of the member for Hcathcote, said, he should he perfectly unworthy to represent Christchurch if ho did not resist any dictation as to how he should vote. He looked upon no member in this House as his Honor the Superintendent, but all as private members [“ divide, divide.”] Mr. FITZGERALD said it was his opinion as well as the member for Hcathcote, that the constituents of Canterbury were almost unanimous in wishing for the removal of the scat of government to Wellington. Mr. MOOKHOUSE explained. All he had wished to convey to the House was that he believed nearly all Canterbury were in favour of the removal of the seat of government to Wellington Nothing was farther from his thoughts than dictation, especially to the hon. member for Christchurch. Mr. JOLLIE should consider it a dereliction from his duty if he did not do his utmost to secure the removal of the seat of government to a more central position, being convinced that unless it were wholly accomplished there would be a serious disruption of the integrity of this colony. Major RICHARDSON would vote for Cook’s Straits as the geographical, commercial, and political centre.

Mr. MANTELL, from personal experience, had come to the conclusion that we could not hope for any permanent settlement of the native question so long as the forces of European powers in these islands were placed so close to the great strength of the native population. Hon. Mr. BELL was of the entirely opposite opinion. If the House now resolved that the seat of government lie removed to Wellington, they must understand that they relieved him at once of the duties of Native Minister. The House must not dream of the possibility that anyone living here could start these institutions of native government with any chance of success.

Mr. J. C. RICHMOND said the remarks of the Native Minister alone had decided him to vote against this motion.

Mr. BRANDON protested against the unfairness of the course taken by the Native Minister.

Mr. BELL explained that he had intended to say nothing, but his lion, colleague lor Wallace’s positive statement for gaining votes the other way placed him in tin unfair position, from which he was hound to relieve himself. lie had not referred to the scat of government especially, but to the government of the natives. Mr. KENALL said the hon. member was perfectly right in arguing from the authority of his position as Native Minister, but had no right to throw his office into the bargain. Hon. Mr. GILLIES said this question had no right to be decided on native affairs. It was quite impossible the country could bo governed from Auckland. Mr. RHODES explained the reasons why ho should vote for the motion, and shewed how it happened the seat of government was ever placed at Auckland. Mr. WELLS thought it was the duty of the House to affirm the principles of this resolution, and, if carried, leave it to Sir George Grey to decide at what point of Cook’s Straits it should be.

Mr. CURTIS thought the seat of government should he removed as soon as possible, but that the native difficulty would not admit of it at present. He had offered therefore to vote for the motion if the hon. member would add the words ‘‘as soon as in the opinion of the Governor the circumstances of the colony should permit.” That offer had been declined, and be must vote for the Government remaining at Auckland for the present.

Mr. COLENSO was undecided us to which way he should vote, but was inclined to vote against the motion.

Mr. WELD supported the motion, Mr. CARGILL would vote for the motion merely as the affirmation of a general principle. Mr. R. GRAHAM spoke against the resolution. Mr. WATT looked upon it merely as a question of time, and he thought under the present exceptional circumstances with the natives, it would not bo wise to remove the scat of government from Auckland. He therefore moved as an amendment the addition of the words “ at the earliest possible period consistent with a due consideration of the general interests of the colony.” The amendment not being seconded fell to the ground. Mr. HENDERSON spoke against the motion. Mr. WARD said a few words in favour of the removal of the scat of government to Cook’s Straits. Mr. DICK having replied, the House divided as follows:

Ayes 22:-Messrs. Fox, Featherston, Fitzherbert, Brandon, Rhodes, Renall, Gillies, W. W. Taylor, Carter, Moorhousc, FitzGerald, Thomson, Harrison, Jollie, Weld, Dick, Richardson, Ward, Wells, Cargill, Cookson, Ormond. Noes 23:—Messrs. Russell, C. J. Taylor, Nixon, G. Graham. Atkinson, Domett, Carleton, Mason, A. J. Richmond, O’Neill, Henderson, O’Rorke, Wood, K, Graham, Wilson, Butler, John Williamson, James Williamson, Curtis, Munro, Colenso, Bell and Stafford. Pairs: —Mr. Mantell for the motion, and Mr. J. C. Richmond against. Mr. Watt absented himself from the division. Hon. Mr. BELL made a further personal explanation. The House then adjourned at five minutes to two o’clock, FRIDAY, AUGUST 22nd. The SPEAKER took the chair at 12 o’clock. MESSAGES FROM lILS EXCELLENCY. Message No. 5 was received from His Excellency, transmitting the Judicial Estimates for the ensuing year. Also, Message No. 0, transmitting Supplementary Estimates. Ordered to be considered in Committee of Supply. I‘UBLIC MEETING AT MONOONUI. Mr. WEED moved for all Correspondence between the Resident Magistrate, Mongonui. and the Government, relating to a public meeting held there in the early part of May lust. Motion agreed to, CASES BETWEEN EUROPEANS AND NATIVES UNDER NEW INSTITUTIONS. Mr. WELD moved for a Return of all cases between Europeans and Natives, tried in the Bay of Mongonui Resident Magistrate’s Courts and District Courts, from the first day of January, 18C0, to the latest possible period, shewing the decision or verdict in each case; and the number of cases, specifying such cases, it any, in which execution followed judgment, together with any correspondence in the possession of the General Government relating thereto. Return to he made at the earliest convenient date in the next session of the Assembly. Agreed to. Mr. CARLETON moved for a return of all eases between Europeans and Natives tried in the Bay ol Islands District Resident Magistrate’s Court and District Courts, from the first day of January, 1800, to the latest possible period, shewing the decision or verdict in each case; the number of cases, specifying such cases, if any, in which execution followed judgment, togetho r ' Trjth" anj cffiTcppomtencfi in the position of fl*g

General Government relating thereto. Return to be made at the earliest convenient date in the next Session of the Assembly, Agreed to. HAWKE’S BAT PETITION ON QUEEN V. COLBNSO. Mr. ORMOND moved, That the Petition of certain inhabitants of the Province of Hawke’s Bay, relating to proceedings in the Resident Magistrate’s (Colonel Russell’s) Court there, bo referred to a Select Committee, to consist of Messrs. Fox, T. Russell, J. C. Richmond, Carleton, Mautell, and the mover, with power to call for persons or papers—explaining that he brought forward this motion at the request of the petitioners, but he believed condemnation would rather fall on them than on the officer complained of. After some remarks from Messrs. Bell, Russell, Gillies, Fox, Stafford, Carlotoa and Ward, the motion was agreed to. PRIVATE BILLS. Mr. CARLETON brought up a Report from the Joint Committee, declaring the Bills referred to it yesterday to he Private Bills. ENLARGEMENT OF LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Mr. COLENSO moved, That, as faithful representatives of the people of the Colony of New Zealand—as promoters and defenders of the high integrity and consequent utility of our Constitutional Institutions—as supporters of free popular Government—and as jealous guardians of sacred public trusts and liberties this House resolves—That a Select Committee be appointed, in order to draw up a respectful address to His Excellency the Governor, requesting him, in exercising file powers recently committed to him by Her Majesty the Queen, of increasing largely the number of the Members of the Legislative Council, by nominating “prudent and descrect men” thereto, to do so wholly irrespective of party, so as to ensure the necessary status of the said Council, and the cordial co-operation of the whole General Assembly, and, also, the respect and confidence of the people. The said Select Committee to consist of Major Richardson, Mr. FitzGerald, Mr. Cracroft Wilson, C.B, Mr. Stafford, Mr. Filzherbcrt, Mr. Carleton. and Major Nixon. —He impressed the importance of this question in the House, and said that he was actuated by no party spirit in bringing forward this motion, hut simply by the conviction that only by the mode hero pointed out could the Legislative Council have any efficiency or a proper status, lie would propose instead of this resolution one precisely the same, mulalis mutandis , as the one already carried in the Legislative Council. He thought there should be disqualifications for seats in the other House as well ns this, yet a Resident Magistrate had been recently appointed to the Legislative Council though disqualified for this.

Mr. O’NEILL seconded the motion. Mr. CARLETON rose to move an amendment, lie heartily supported the object of the hon. mover upon constitutional grounds, but objected to the form of the motion. Unless a. remedy was applied to the present manner of appointing the Legislative Council its doom was sealed. Each new Ministry of course wanted to put some of their own supporters in, and the Council would soon, if this system continued, be as large as the Commission of the I’eace. A reckless Ministry might get into office, and when the feeling of this House though not the votes was declared against them, advise the Governor to fill up the Council with their supporters He moved that all the words after “ That” in the first line, down to the word “ Select” be omitted, with a view to insert the following, “ a Select Committee be appointed to draw up a humble address to Her Majesty, praying that a limit may be named to the number of members to he appointed to the Legislative Council.” Hon. Mr. DOMETT was not inclined to rote for this resolution. Though it did not convey a direct charge that appointments had been improperly made, it was the natural inference and it would he very objectionable for a Select Committee to go into the motives for past appointments. It was impossible to make these appointments totally irrespective of party, and the adoption of the course proposed here would throw difficulties in the way of the working of representative institutions. They had better, he thought, leave the constitution of the Legislative Council to that body itself. lie should therefore vote for the amendment of the hon. member for the Bay.

Mr. ORMOND replied to one or two remarks made by Mr. Colenso. Mr, BRANDON did not like either resolution or amendment, as they would throw great difficulties in the way of the working of constitutional government. Mr. REN ALL trusted the House would put an end to these constant attempts to tinker up the constitution. Mr. FOX could not agree to the motion. It was often desirable when a new Ministry came in to put one of their number in the Legislative Council The difficulty occurred when the late Ministry came and they were obliged to ask a gentleman to resign, to make room for an important officer of the Government. The constitutional composition of the Legislative Council was by no means satisfactory. He would prefer the plan adopted in the United States of giving nn equal number of members to every state, large or small, the object of this Council being the protection of minorities. .Mr. COLENSO in replying, said he had not intended to imply any censure on His Excellency.! In reply to Mr. Fox, he asked if any such body was ever known to improve itself. He was not in favour of limiting the number of members, that was in the amendment. He could not accede to the amendment, though ho looked upon it as merely nn extinguisher on the motion, because he saw the motion itself would not be carried.

The original motion was then put and negatived, and on the Amendment being put the following division took place. Ayes 11.—Messrs. Colenso, Ormond, Weld, Domett, Nixon, Butler, O’Neill, Mason, Atkinson, Jollio, and Ward (teller). Noes 21—Messrs. Fox, Fitzgerald, O’Rorke, Brandon, W. W. Taylor, Watt, K. Graham, Thomson, Gillies, Featherston, Munro, Cookson, Dick, Renal), John Williamson, James Williamson, G. Graham, Fitzherbert, Russell, C. J. Taylor, and Carlcton (teller). The remaineder of the motion was then put and negatived. SPECIAL ADJOURNMENT. On motion of Mr. GILLIES, the House resolved to meet at 12 o’clock on Monday next. A motion for meeting to-morrow was proposed by Mr. Gillies, hut in deference to the general opinion of the House, it was withdrawn. REPORTS OP COMMITTEES. The order of the day for bringing up the report of the Administration of Justice Committee was dis charged. The losses by wreck of “ White Swan” Committee was allowed till Tuesday to bring up its report. LAW PRACTITIONERS’ BILL. The report of the Joint Conference on the Law Practitioners Bill was adopted. COURT OF APPEAL HILL. The report of the Joint Conference on the Bill for establishing a Court of Appeal was adopted. SUMMART PROCEDURE ON HILLS HILL. The amendments made by the Legislative Council in this Bill were read and agreed to. TRUSTEES’ RELIEF BILL. The amendments made by the Legislative Council in this Bill were read and agreed to. BIRDS PROTECTION BILL, The report of the Committee of the whole having been adopted, the Birds Protection Bill was read a third time and passed, and ordered to be transmitted to the Legislative Council. RESIDENT MAGISTRATES’ JURISDICTION EXTENSION BILL. The Hon. ATTORNEY GENERAL moved the second reading of a Bill to extend the Jurisdiction of Resident Magistrates from X2O to £SO, in civil and also on other points. Bill read a second time, considered in committee, and ordered to be farther considered on Monday. OTAGO AND SOUTHLAND BOUNDARY BILL. Mr. FITZGERALD moved the second rending of the Otago and Southland Boundary Bill, explaining that this Bill was one which had been introduced into the other House by Dr. Menzicsand passed. Its object was to give to Southland a tract of land lying East of the Mataura river included in the Petition upon which the Province was formed, but excluded by the Government from the Province, the river Mataura being made the boundary.

Hon. Mr. GILLIES opposed the Bill in a speech of very considerable length, contending that the House should not consider a Bill of tin's nature without full notice, and ample opportunity given to the Province of Otago to produce the overwhelming evidence which they could bring to prove that this alteration would be not only an unfair injury to Otago, but an injury to the whole Colony. He moved that the Bill be read a second time this day six month*.

Mr. STAFFORD, while supporting the Bill proposed that the different Provincial Governments should employ surveyors to report on natural boundaries and send them up next session to give evidence before this House which should then consider, apart from Provincial interests, whether the boundaries of all the Provinces could not be improved. Hon. Mr. BELL supported the second reading. The relations of the inhabitants of this tract of land were with the Province of Southland, to which they had*tor a considerable period desired to he joined, and a memorial had been passed by the Provincial Council of Southland in favour of such a union, us the authorities of Otago well knew and might easily therefore have jffWHml th? THKwsmy erittem Give an quality of

right and wrong; the proper course was to consider the interests of the people most concerned, and unless such a feeling could be shown on the part of those people as would justify an inquiry into the circumstances it would not be right that the rest of New Zealand should oppose the wish of the people most particularly conMr. CARLETON would vote for the second reading in the hope that the question would be more fully dcvclopled by taking evidence. Mr. FITZHERBERT opposed the second reading, Hon. Mr. RUSSELL would support the second reading, being satisfied from personal observation of the necessity of it. . , Mr. FOX argued that this was a Private Bill, ana moved that it be referred to the Private Bills Committee to decide whether it be so or not After a few remarks by Mr. FITZGERALD the House divided on Mr. Fox’s amendment, which was negatived by 23 to 12. , A . Mr. CARTER would support the amendment of Mr. Gillies, on the ground that Otago was taken by surprize in the introduction of this Bill Mr. COLENSO would support the amendment, for a similar reason. If it were brought forward again next session he might then support it. , Mr. W. W. TAYLOR, and Mr. CARGILL spoke against the Bill, as also did Major RICHARDSON, who stated that on Monday last was the first time he ever heard of any intention to bring in such a Bill as this. Nor was ho aware of the resolutions passed by the Provincial Council of Southland. Ihe petitions referred to, from a few inhabitants of the coveted tract, was sent to him to transmit to the Governor, which he did with a protest. These two petitions, signed by 30 or 40 people, did not represent the general opinion of the district in question, containing nearly 2,000,000 acres Mr, MANTELL having spoken in favour of the Bill, and Mr. MOORHOUSE against it, Mr. FITZGERALD replied. The question was then put on the second reading, and the House divided as follows; —

Ayes 13.—Messrs. Bell, Russell, Curtis, Butler, Munro, Atkinson, Watt, Stafford, J, C. Richmond, Ormond, Carlcton, Mantcll, and Fitzgerald. Noes 23. —Messrs. Wilson, G. Graham, Carter, Dick, Fox, C. J. Taylor, Rhodes, R. Graham, Gillies, Moorhouse, John Williamson, James Williamson, O’Rorke, Featherston, AV. W. Taylor, Fitzherbcrt, Richardson, Cargill, Ward, Colenso, Harrison, Wells, and Wood. LAND REGISTRY - ACT. A Message was received from the Legislative Council informing the House that they had passed a Bill to amend the Land Registry Act, 1860. Bill read a first time and ordered to be read a lecond time next sitting day. SUPREME COURTS BILL. Hon. Mr. GILLIES moved the second reading of a Bill to define and extend the powers of the Judges of the Supreme Court, to provide for the more speedy administration of justice in certain cases, and to amend the law relating to the administration of the Estates of deceased persons Bill read a second time and ordered to be committed presently. JURIES BILL. Hon. Mr. GILLIES moved the second reading of a Bill to provide for the proper construction of Juries. The Bill not being in the hands of members, the second reading was made an Order of the Day for tc-morrow. NATIVE RESERVES ACT AMENDMENT BILL. Hon. Mr. GILLIES moved the second reading of this Bill. Mr. HARRISON hailed the Bill with satisfaction. Bill read a second time and ordered to be committed presently. goldfield’s management bill. Hon. Mr. WARD, in moving the second reading, explained that this was a compiled Bill, prepared by the Select Committee appointed to consider the subject. Bill read a second time and ordered to be committed presently. COMMITTEE. On the motion of the Hon. ATTORNEY GENERAL, the House went into Committeeon the Supreme Court Bill, the Native Reserves Act Amendment Bill, and the Goldfields Bill. The two former were reported with amendments, — ordered to be considered next sitting day, the latter ordered to be further considered in Committee next sitting day. The House then adjourned at a quarter past eleven o’clock. MONDAY, AUGUST 25tii. The Speaker took the chair at 12 o'clock. PAPERS The hon. CROSBIE WARD laid upon the table Papers relating to the Inter-Colonial Steam Navigation Company. GOVERNMENT reporting. Mr. FITZGERALD moved, “That, in the opinion of this House, it is essential, in order to secure proper responsibility of members of this House to the constituency of the Colony, that full and accurate reports of the debates in this House be published by the authority of this House, and that it is expedient that the Government should take steps for securing this end before the next session of the General Assembly.” —l he House had already had sufficient experience of the impossibility of procuring fair reports of their debates. There was not a sufficient stuff of reporters in the country fully to report the debates of the House, as it was necessary they should he if representative government was to be a reality and not a sham, as it must he if constituents could not get reliable information of the views expressed by their representatives. There would be very little expense about this matter. Subscriptions throughout the colony to such a work would pay the expense, the rule being adhered to of giving away no copies. Mr. CARLETON supported the motion. If properly carried out, an end would be put to a system that for years past had been a standing disgrace to the colony—the system of wilfully falsifying reports for political purposes. Mr. O’RURKE supported the motion, and suggested such a system as that carried out by the Victorian Government with the Argus, the proprietors of which were paid £6OO a year for their reports, which they delayed two days, in order that members might examine them. Government reporting itself would be rather expensive, he thought. The Hansard at home was hut a reprint of the best reports of the London press, lie suggested that if a government press was established, all the debates since 1854 should be printed. Mr. FITZGERALD having replied, the motion was agreed to. native lands bill. The hon. Mr. BELL moved, That the Native Lands Bill he taken as the first order of the day. Mr. FOX objected, because there was an understanding come to on Friday that this Bill should not come on till Tuesday, in consequence of which several members might be absent. Some discussion then ensued with reference to this understanding, or rather “misunderstanding,” and on the question being put, the motion was carried. The order of the day for the second reading of the Bill having then been read, it was postponed till 7 o’clock that evening. NOMINATION OF SUFERINTENDENTS’ BILL. The adjourned debate on the second reading of this Bill was resumed by Mr. FOX, who did not see, except as getting the thin end of the wedge in, that there was much harm in the Bill, for he did not think there was much chance of the provinces adopting its provisions. As the bill stood, however, the nomination was to be made by the Governor, and not by the Governor in Council, in which case it would have been a machine of enormous corruption, converting the Provincial Government into branches of the General Government. The persons nominated by the General Government would not be those that would be elected by the people. Instead of escaping from dead locks, therefore, you would have one universal dead-lock, the Provincial Council stopping the supplies, till, to promote harmony, a bill would have to be passed to make nominated Councils; but the result of the present provision would bo that the Governor having no constitutional position, except as acting by the advice of hit. responsible ministers, or as representative of the Imperial Government; if he was not to take the former plan, he must act under instructions from the Colonial Office, and the inevitable consequence would bn that clerks from the Colonial Office would be sent out to be appointed Superintendents. He did not see how to escape from one of these alternatives. He trust' d the lion, member would show some way of escape. The principle of the Constitution Act—of government by tiro people—was gradually being destroyed. The people by this bill would be deprived of one of the most worthy objects of their ambition. The member for Ellesmere, if he proceeded in his present course, would have one day to write us an epitaph for his own tomb—“ The man who destroyed the Constitution of New Zealand!” Ho trusted the hon. member would pause in that course Mr. WELD would bo disinclined to vote for the bill if lie supposed by it they were giving up one single power to the Governor himself. He understood that ns in all other European matters the Governor was only to act upon the advice of his Council. [Mr. Fitzgerald: Hear, hear.] So far, then, the argument of the member lor liangiiikci fell to the ground. On the- second point laid down by tho memhep for Ran’

gitikei—that the appointment by the Governor in Council would be a source of great corruption—h e thought that while it might be an improper thing to give ministers the appointment of judges, they mast always trust ministers in the exercise of functions. With regard to the other point, he thought dead-locks would really be prevented. The Superin. tendent not being able to claim to represent the people would have to abide by the decisions of the Council’ For his own part he would support the Bill, because it would cure a great anomaly hitherto existing in our system, viz., that the General Government* should have no officers through whom to act in the provinces Another great advantage of the bill would be in a local point of view. If the Superintendent were nominated, he saw the way to the delegation to the provinces of every power which the Superintendent and Provincial Council had ever wanted, for there would be a proper check on the exercise of those powers. He could not see that it would take away any of the power of the people. Mr. REMALL did not care whether the power of the people would be destroyed or not; but this bill was such a deviation from the Constitution Act, that he could not vote for it without consultation with his constituents. All of them he had met since this bill was proposed had expressed themselves against it. The evils complained of they had no evidence would be cured by it. He would not object to an alteration in J the mode of election, but to do away with election Jl. altogether would take away a proper object of ambition from the people. Many people would not like to have political opponents appointed over them, as in this case they might be. If these nominated Superintendents were to work out, by means of responsible government the wish of the Council, he would vote for the bill; but he did not exactly see the way to that, and the bill as it at present stood left the Superintendent all the powers which he exercised at present. He must record liis vote against the bill.

Mr. STAFFORD would not support the. Bill but for the clause making it merely permissive. He d d not like the Bill in its present shape. The Superin tendents had large executive duties, ami it wasdesirable they should have still more ; ai d if this Bill were passed it should be imperative that the Superintendent should be advised in the execution of I)is duties bvan executive composed of, at least, three members of the Provincial Council, responsible to them and that he should act in accordance with their advice. He would a : so absolutely require that the nominations of the Superintendents should be made by the Governor in Council. Under such conditions, he did not see why Superintendents should not have delegated to them all the powers of the Governor except the higher ones of appointing Judges but, on the contrary, saw great reason why they should, lie should therefore support the second reading. Dr. FEATHERSTON, after referring to a remark of Mr. Colenso’s, about the impropriety of Superintendents taking part in this debate, said he did not believe that the hon. member for Ellesmere had succeeded in convincing any ban. member that this Bill was not a great innovation on the right - of the people. The lion, member was not justified in propping the measure unless he could show that it was a measure for the public good, and shew that the opinion of the people w’as that it was so. He had failed to produce evidence that any such opinion existed outside of the walls of this House. Although the hon. member failed to elicit any public support in favour of this Bill, he had <io doubt enlisted the sympathy of many hon. members of this House, defeated Superintendents and others, who, knowing they stood no chance of being elected by the people, thought there was some chance that .hey might be appointed by the Governor. He challenged the hon. mover, or any other boa. member, to prove that in any instance the electors had abased the privileges conferred on them by the Constitution Act, and that they had not always made a better selection than could have been made by His Excellency or his Responsible Ministers. For many years it had been advocated by many leading men in England that the colonists should have the election of their own Governors. He fully agreed with that opinion, and were they now going to lake away from the people the right of electing their own Superintendents. The chief defect of the Constitution was the conferring on the Provincial and General Governments power to legislate concurrently on every subject but the thirteen excepted ones. He agreed that what was wanted was a localized administration of the General Government, but he denied that that could not be done by elective Superintendents. Unless the interests of the General Government were assumed to be adverse to the Provincial interests, there was no reason for supjiosmg that elective Superintendents could not as., oharge General Government duties as a nt.Mfiiated one ; but if the two interests were adverse, listen that was the best possible reason for not placing Provincial interests in the hands of a nominated Superintendent. All that was wanted was a simple letter to the Superintendent authorizing him to act on behalf of the General Government in all cases of emergency. He denounced this Bill as the most dishonest and most insidious attempt ever made to overthrow the privileges of the people given them by the Constitution, and cordially supported the amendment, Mr. J. C. RICHMOND spoke in favour of the Bill. The hon. Mr. BELL would vote against the second reading of this Bill He did not deny the advantage 10 he gained by localizing administration in the Superintendent*. But there were two objections to this Bill which he considered fatal. In the first place, before making any fundamental and organic change in the Constitution, they should ascertain the opinions of the people. The answer made to this was that the Bill was only permissive, but this would give rise to the great anomaly and inconvenience of being a nominated Superintendent in one Province, and an elected one in another.

Mr. ITTZHERBERT supported the amendment in a speech lasting over two hours, chiefly for the reason that the people had had no opportunity of expressing th'dr opinion on the Bill. Mr. FITZGERALD, in replying, would only comment on one or two of the principal objections which had been expressed to-day. It had been repeated over and over again, especially by the Wellington party, that this Bill was an invasion of the powers of the people, and it occurred Throughout that there was nothing those hon. members were more mortally afraid of than the people. This was not a great change as had been said. When this Bill was passed the change would still be unaccomplished. Those hon. members were afraid, not of the Bill, but that the people would accept the Hill (hear, hear.) He had never proposed or supported any political measures hostile to the will of the people. He simply asked them to change the hasty expression of their will in the excitement of an election for the expression of their well considered will, extending over a long period of time. Though not advocated by public meetings, this proposal, he contended, had been quietly discussed in political circles, and public opinion expressed on it. It was erroneous, he considered, to look upon our Constitution as a perfect one which must not be altered. He cordially agreed witli the hon. member for Nelson, that the word Governor always meant the Governor in Council, where ih« Governor had a responsible Executive Council.

Question put that the word “ now” stand part of the question (i.e., that the Bill be now read a second time). House divided as follows:

Ayes 22—Messrs. J. C. Richmond, Domett, Stafford, Gillies, Atkinson, Jollie, Carle to a, Russell, O’Neill, A. J. Richmond, Wilson, Watt, Wells, Cookson, R. Graham, Butler, Nixon, James Williamson, Mason, Weld, Colenso, and Fitzgerald. Noes 20 —Messrs. Munro, J. Moorhouse, O’Rorke, C. J. Taylor, Richardson, Harrison, Renail, Featherston, Bell, Cargill, John Williamson, Dick, W. W. Taylor, Fox, Henderson, Fitzherbert. Carter, Ormond, Ward and Thomson. Pairs—For the Bill: Mantell, Curtis. Against: Brandon, Ward. The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Wednesday next, and the Speaker left the chair as usual till seven o’clock. EVENING SITTING.

NATIVE. LANDS BILL. The lion, the NATIVE MINISTER, in a speech of considerable length, moved the second reading of this Bill, and was followed by Mr. Jollie who did not approve of the Bill, bur would not vote against it in deference to the opinions of the Government and the members of the Northern Island; Messrs. Mantell and Carleton warmly supporting the Bill, Mr. Renall opposing it, and Mr. G. Graham also warmly supporting it. The adjournment of the debate was then moved by Mr. W. W. Taylor at ten minutes to eleven o’clock, and negatived on a division by 33 to 9. Mr. W. Taylor and Mr. Curtis then addressed the House condemning the Bill chiefly on the ground that it would destroy the Land Fund and ruin the Province of Wellington. Mr. O’Neill, Mr. Moorhouse, and Mr. Weld, having spoken in favour of the measure. Mr. Brandon moved the adjournment of the debate at about half-past twelve, which was negatived on a division by 24 to 16. Mr Brandon having addressed the House against the Bill, a motion was made to proceed to a division, which was not seconded, but called forth a storm of indignation from Mr. Fitzgerald, who moved the adjournment of the debate, and several other hon. members, after which the motion wts agreed to, and the adjourned debate made first order of the day for Tuesday.

House then adjourned at twenty-five minutes past one o’clock.