HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVE

New Zealander, Volume XVIII, Issue 1717, 23 August 1862, Page 4

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVE

THURSDAY, JULY 31st, 1862; The SPEAKER took the chair at 12 oVliwV The Hon. Mr WOOD moved the the House, as, under present circumstances it Z ~o f undesirable to proceed with business. ’ to Mr. STAFFORD, in seconding the motion adjournment, said—Sir, with the leave of the Itf will make a short statement of occurrences W hi w right the House should be informed of T i state, sir that on Tuesday last, shortly before tR 10 appointed for the sitting of the House, I Jj* summons from His Excellency requesting me him with a view to form a Minktry.l proceeded to Government House, and, at an intT •- f with His Excellency, I stated certain reasons whiß once compelled me respectfully to decline undm.v the office which His Excellency had been kindly to request me to undertake. His Extalß was then pleased to call upon me to offer any JzJ ' tion in connection with the subject of ray'intfrv which. I might think proper to make. I then His Excellency that there was in the Houseanh * gentleman, the hon. member for Ellesmere (it v° ngerald), for whom a large amount of personal ship and regard was very generally entertained bv .n parties in the House. That, owing to his alto from the House for several sessions, he was not hW fied with political parties within it, or withtb* animosities engendered by them; that [ twf I therefore, that His Excellency might advantages] I consult with Mr. Fitzgerald with respect to a Mink; ’ being supplied to His Excellency. His ExcZJJ was pleased to signify that he would act in confcmdre with my suggestion. With respect to what hasJ! taken place. I will leave it to other hon. gentlemen, render such statements as they may think required B Mr. CARLETON desiring to proceed with some routine business, e Mr. WOOD, by leave of the House, withdrew hk motion. RELIEF OF TRUSTEES BILL. Mr. GILLIES moved for and obtained leavetabrin# in a Bill for the Relief of Trustees, which was read* first time, and ordered to be printed. Second readin? fixed for Tuesday next. “ GOLD FIELDS COMMITTEE. Mr. WARD, in the absence of Mr. Domett, mired, —“ That the Gold Fields Committee have leave to confer with any similar Committee appointed bv the Legislative Council, and that power be given tp’iach Committee to send for persons, papers, and records.” Motion agreed to. FORMATION OF MINISTRY. Mr. FITZGERALD moved that the House proceed to the last notice of motion, passing over the intermediate two, which, being applications to the Government for Returns, should not be proceeded with till there was an organ of the Government in the House to inform them whether such Returns could be made’ &c, ; and he would take this opportunity to mention to the House, that Mr. Domett had been with His Excellency, and was charged with the construction of a Ministry. It would be unbecoming in him (Mr. F.) in the meantime to make any remarks on the negociations which had passed between His Excellency and himself, because such remarks might induce discussion which might possibly embarrass the negotiations now pending. He therefore claimed the indulgence of the House to postpone any such remarks till a future occasion, when there might be an organ of His Excellency in the House (hear, hear).

STANDING ORDERS. On motion of Mr. CARLETON, the Report of the Joint Committee on Standing Orders was adopted. The House then adjourned.

FRIDAY, AUGUST Ist. The SPEAKER took the chair at 12 o’clock. PROGRESS IN FORMATION OF MINISTRY.

Mr. DOMETT said that, before proceeding to business, he had a short statement to make. The House, had, he believed, already been informed that the Governor had sent for him to form a Ministry; it was with the greatest reluctance that he had accepted the duty, and only after the most pressing requests, which His Excellency thought it his duty to make, is the public service require it. His obvious object was of course to make as strong a Ministry under the present circumstances of the country as could be made, and with that view, he had taken the step of asking lie hon. member for Rangitikei to join him; but that hon. member could only consent on conditions which he (Mr. D.) thought he could not accept consistently with his duty to those hon. members who had promised to support him. He thought that if he accepted those conditions, which he understood to be sine i/ua non. he should be defeating the object to be gained by cooperation,—that of forming aGovernment, haring a considerable majority in the House, —that many would withdraw their support from such a Ministry, which would thereby have no chance of such a majority as the circumstances of the country seemed to require. He did not find fault with the position taken by the hon. member for Rangitikei, but thought he was justified in taking it. His Excellency desiring him not to give up the task, he then sought to form a Ministry without that hon. member’s aid, and he believed he was iu a fair way of forming one; but his arrangements were not yet completed, and he hoped, if the House would give him till Tuesday, that a Ministry would be formed which would be acceptable to the House and to the Governor (hear, hear). The only condition on which he would hold office was, that some very large remedial pacific measures should be adopted by me House. Anticipating that the House would not reject any rational measures of that kind, he had menaonta as much to His Excellency, who, he need hardlv sav> would be delighted if such measures (which might oe His Excellency’s own) could be carried, and would be satisfied with a Ministry that could cany them.

COMMUNICATION COMMITTEE.

The Hon. CROSBIE WARD brought up the following interim Report from the Communication Committee ; “ Your Committee having taken into consideration that part of the subject committed to them which relerno communication with the United Kingdom an Ocean Postal Sendee, have agreed to the foW resolutions, which they recommend for adoption . House. . fc. “ 1. That, in the opinion of this Committee, t tablishment of regular monthly stcam connnmii between New Zealand and the United K' n o Panama is calculated to confer very great benefit up this colony. . ~ j cnc h “2. That, considering the probable expense an undertaking, it is desirable that the serTl be so constructed as to confer advantage upo i obtain the support of the neighbouring colonies. “ 3. That this Committee recommends the approp ron of a sum not exceeding £30.000 per annum, Ist January, 1864, for five years, as a towards the colonial portion of a subsidy t service.” _ , , Ordered to be considered on Tuesday next

NATIVE POLICT RESOLUTIONS. Mr. FITZGERALD gave notice that 'on next, he would move the Resolutions pnn “motion of the hon. Mr. FOX, the Ho** 8

TUESDAY, AUGUST 5,1862. The SPEAKER took the chair at 12 o’clock.

PRIVATE PETITIONS. Mr. THOMSON presented a Petition from Hughes, praying for compensation for os of during the Maori disturbances m the ±to Wellington about 1846. Petition received. . , • col r. pctio oll Mr. FOX wished to know (hr vmg himself to present to-morrow) in what position • regard to Petitions relative to P n J ate .£f!® days must, he believed, be presented wi - profiom the commencement of the hMr were rogation having been to the <th, i M running days they were just over, i S f had vet some days to run. . ~ hj rtC koncd The SPEAKER said the Session would bnt from the day the Governor delivered the rule of presenting a private Petmon wrm days no longer existed on the Standi g

tue new ministry. , veo fthe Mr. DOMETT said he would now, by House, state the result of the nc S , A® Friday he told the House he was him and had then stated, when the Governo un( j er take the expressed a strong desire that he a s tn>ng duty', he consented, and, desirxn- member a tl^e Ministry, he went at once to the t0 accept head of the then Government, a “ , (jjgctission. a seat in the new Ministry. A not take ant that hon. gentleman replied that hj nrev i o position lower tlian that which he P o ftjce be as Premier and Native Minister, which had been offered. He (Mr- D-) jt would hj« possibly accede to that proposition, beca -e he putting himself in a secondary P* ’ r forming a lieved, would defeat the desired 0 J Ministry strong enough to cany on

—Trained, therefore, to endeavour to form a H« ,“ et oUt 0 f the men of moderate opinions,—the > men on both sides of the House, who were not able 8 * . red against each other by party struggles 10 orevent them working cordially together: be- '° fhe time to be particularly favourable for such lie*?' tQ jj 0 formed, because the main subject * rould come before them, the Native question, tha { flt ex tcnt taken out of the hands of this ture * a Ministry of that kind might agree jo giving support to the Governor in carrying g ener ,“ plons. He therefore next proceeded to offer ODt .Several other members of the previous GovemseßtS l f Mr. Sewell, Mr. Ward, and Mr. Wood, who, » various negotiations and discussions, ultimately I (yesterday) to take scats in the Ministiy. i as very anxious that those hon. members should S® W jgi ne d him, being precisely the men who could , “ tt . ve A ye joined in forming such a Ministry as he had a ibed their talents and their opinions being well 2 esc ” ,<)’ every member of the House. Ho thought kno they would form a Ministry acceptable to this « se arid to the country', and he thought that in kinir these offers ho had shewn that he was not m ateld by adverse feelings to that Ministry or that BCt “ asa party (hear, hear). He wished that to bo P? r y tly understood. They declined his offers, how- , dl and ho would now state to the House what Ministry was at present formed, and in what position u was/ He was happy to say ho had secured the lC . j 0 f his hon. friend Mr. Bell as Native Minister, 80 . better, the House generally would concur with *? coU id not be found (cheers). Mr. Mantell would hi* Postmaster-General and Secretary for Crown Lands, w , the office of Attorney-General would be for the ent filled by Mr. Gillies, who he hoped would also he acceptable to the House, as his talents were well known there (hear, hear). The Colonial Treasurership he had not filled up, and he wished to state particularly that he was keeping it open in the hope that ho might * some Auckland member to take that office, as it was due to the members of that Province to give them more weight than they would otherwise have in this Ministry. 0 Ho himself look the Colonial Secretaryship. c„ flts jn the Executive Council, without office, had been accepted by Mr. T. Russell and Mr. Tancrcd. If in the Ministry proposed all the Provinces were not represented as much as they would like, he could only «av it had been his sincere desire to get them so represented, and to compose a Ministry not actuated jJ stron( r party feelings on either side, but which would carry on the business of the country, unembarrassed by previous political combinations. He had not sought the position he now held, and was not anxious to keep it otherwise than the necessities of the country, as they appeared to the Governor, might reouire' it. The Ministry was still short handed in some respects, and he could only hope the House would rive them credit for having assumed the Government golelv from the conviction that it was their paramount duty to His Excellency the Governor, to this House, and to the colony, to endeavour to afford to the House, as far as was in their power, one chance of avoiding a result of its difficulties, which on all hands would be considered most deplorable (hear, hear). Mr. FOX trusted the House would indulge him so far as to allow him to make one or two remarks, not to raise debate or comment on the statement they had just heard, but. simply to clear up one point and set right some hon. members who had been under a false impression. He was glad to hear the hon. member state distinctly in this House, with that candour which they would expect from him on all occasions, but especially one like the present, that on receiving Sir George Grey’s commands to form a Ministry, he at once considered it his duty to open communication with him (Mr. Fox). He was glad to hear this statement, because (probably in consequence of the hon. member s not communicating with him for more than 24 hours,) a general impression had sprung up that that bon. member had first made every endeavour in his power to put himself in the hands of the extreme men of his own party, with the view of forming a Ministry from which he (Mr. F.) might be excluded. It was therefore with the greatest satisfaction he now heard that the first thing the hon. member did was to come to him.—[Mr. Domett : I did not mean that I went straight from the Governor to the hon. member, but I mean that I bad the idea in my head from the first to offer that hon. member a scat.] —He was extremely glad to hear, then, that the hon. member did not attempt any other combinations before he made the oiler to himself (hear, hear) ; though the idea had existed that he had done so—[Mr. Domett: No]— and that though the hon. member was 24 hours before he communicated with him (Mr. F.), it was not owing to negotiations of a character to exclude him. Mr. FITZGERALD Sir, I hope to be allowed to claim the same indulgence which the House has extended to the hon. members who have just spoken. I wish to explain what took place between His Excellency and myself, in order that it may not be supposed that I made any attempt to form a Ministry and failed to do so. The only communication between His Excellency and rpyselfwas one in which I informed His Excellency definitely that, for reasons with which the House has nothing to do, and which therefore I need not mention, it was not in my power to accept any office. The Governor was pleased to ask me to advise him as to what course he should adopt. He suited that he had seen Mr. Stafford, who had declined to form a Ministry. Sir, I thought it my duty to advise His Excellency that there were no differences of opinion, so far as I could see, existing in the House of so substantial a nature as to preclude the formation of a Ministry’consisting of the ablest men on both sides of the House; but the leader of the party who opposed the late Government having formally refused to undertake the task of forming a Ministry. I was of opinion that such a coalition could only bo formed between members of the late Government and those who had held subordinate positions on the opposite side. His Excellency was pleased to request me to take twenty-four hours to consider what could bo effected, and what advice I should be prepared finally to give on the subject. I did so ; and the result at which I arrived was. that the strongest Ministry which could be formed would be one in which my hon. friend (Mr. Domett) should take a principal part in conjunction with the hon. gentleman who had been at the head of the late Ministry. It did not occur to me, sir, that any difference was likely to arise as to who should take the precedence in such a Ministry ; but had such a point occurred to me. I should have advised that that was a point to be decided by the Governor ; I should have supposed that both these hon. gentlemen would have readily abided by such a decision ; and in doing so they would have merely been following a precedent when events of a similar nature occurred in our old country. Sir, I advised His Excellency to send for Mr, Domett, under the impression that a Ministry comprising both that gentleman and Mr. Fox would have been formed without difficulty : I thought that those hon. gentlemen could have formed a Government in which a very large portion of the colony would have had great confidence. I still regret that any circumstances should have occurred to prevent a more perfect coalition of opposite parties in this House— a coalition which I think would be of permanent advantage both to this House and to the colony at large. inter-colonial steam services. Mr. CROSBIE WARD brought up the following second Interim Report from the Communication Committee— -11 Your Committee beg to report the following resolutions:— “Resolved, —That the requirements of the colony will not be fully satisfied with less than three lines of Inter-Colonial Steam Service, viz.—between Melbourne and the South, between Auckland and Sydney, and between Cook’s Straits and Sydney respectively. “July 26, Resolved,—That the Steam Service referred to in the foregoing Resolution of the Committee he undertaken by the General Government, and bo borne on the General Estimates. “ Resolved, —That communications should be maintained between the principal Provinces of the colony, four times a month, and between all the Provinces twice a month, provided that the whole expense of such Inter Provincial Service do not exceed £20,000 per annum.” Report read and ordered to be considered in Committee of Supply to-morrow. CONDUCT OF BUSINESS. Mr. DICK, not knowing to whom ho should address himself, postponed the question standing in his name till Thursday. Mr. DOMETT would state the course which he Proposed to take. On Thursday morning he would be prepared to make a general statement of the policy which the Government intended to pursue, and in the meantime as hon. members were anxious to get on with the work of the Session, the House might meet tomorrow evening, which was devoted to the Resolutions °t the hon. member for Ellesmere. If the House uhose to support the Ministry and render it strong •mough to go on with the business quickly, nil the measures the Government would propose might be got over by the end of the month. If this course met the approval of the House, he would move that the House do now adjourn till to-morrow evening. The Notices of Motion on this day’s paper having been renewed, the House adjourned at about half-past twelve o’clock.

WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 6tii, Tha SPEAKER took the chair at five o’clock.

»HB MINISTBBIAI/ I‘OMCT. TH* jIM, tlw «OMIW< SBOBWA«T .Htt

mon! d bo Bbou,cl be Obliged to postpone his stateaccountf Jf 6 Vl6 - WS of the Gov emment till Friday, on of f® important despatch having bee/ reived from the Duke of Newcastle (which the Native lay on the table) which Effected th n nni llarly the q uestion of the share of expenditure o/rat nn 7 W !f , t0 bear for P aßt and military • “5? the question of the responsibility of the Native affairs on which subject ho would move the following Resolutions on Thurday, unless it were the wish of the House ho should defer them. i. " That m the opinion of this House, the relations pSblo Ad Excclle " c - V the Governor and his ResponsibJo Advisers should rest upon the following

rovll\ : n^ a i ?linißt T- Bho u Uld A in confo ™ity with the K^ trUCtlon f- adviso the Govcrn °r in native affairs SSSL-S < r olom t l a<^ irs > whenever his Excellency OWUM to Obtain such advice, and should also tender “l a ™? n , al occasions of importance, when they deem it their duty m the interests of the colony to do

’ T i Wt . llinis^. rs sllould und crtoke the administlfe V °,, affttlrS * res F vin £ t0 His Excellency the decision in all matters of native policy, “3. That, as the decision in all matters of native policy is with his Excellency, the advice of ministers shall not bo held to bind the colonv to any liability past or future in connection with native affairs, beyond the amount authorised or to be authorised by tne House of Representatives.” PAPERS. * P\ Ho J 1 :. the NATIVE MINISTER laid on the table the following despatch, which, having been read, was ordered to bo printed forthwith. 1 Hespatcli appeared, in our issue of Wednesday * ,T he . H ? n - COLONIAL SECRETARY laid on the table the following Papers;— Farther Papers respecting proposed Lighthouses at Port Chalmers, Otago. Further Papers respecting appointment of Clerks Assistant of the House of Representatives. Papers relative to the Taranaki Relief Communication. IMPORTATION OP GAME. Mr, R. GRAHAM in moving, “Thatall correspondeuce between the Colonial Government and Mr. Mornson, the New Zealand Government agent, relative to sending game to this colony, bo laid on the table of the House,” said ho wished to ascertain why the orders given by the Stafford Ministry had been countermanded, and referred to the late Prince Consort having very kindly sent a quantity of game to London to be sent hero, which had arrived and found their way into the hands of private individuals and members of the House.

Mr. WELD seconded the motion, and, as one of the private members alluded to, would venture a few words in explanation. He understood that Mr. Morrison, the New Zealand Government agent in London, had purchased certain deer in accordance with an order from this colony; this order was afterwards countermanded, but Mr. Morrison could not very well send back the deer. Sir Charles Clifford and himself (Mr. Weld) were then asked if they would take the deer. A portion of them were taken, and paid for, by Sir Charles Clifford, and the rest were taken by some other gentlemen.

Mr. FOX said that there never had been any money v °ted by that House lor the importation of game. Mr. Morrison had been commissioned to procure some game for the colony, but the only source from which the very heavy expenses could bo obtained was from a fund known as the Domain Fund, appropriated for the improvement of the Domain at Auckland. But in this there arose a difficulty which ho would explain. When the late Government took office they found that Mr. Richmond, the then late Colonial Treasurer, had initiated a very peculiar system of finance. This system was, in effect, that whenever he was short of money for any one purpose, he would take it from some other fund where there happened to be something to his credit. When he (Mr. Fox) took office, he inquired what sum there was to the credit of the Domain Fund.and he was informed that there was about £3,000. This fact was hardly ascertained, when he discovered that, although this sum was to the credit, yet he could not have a sixpence of it—it having been lent to the Provincial Government to build a Resident Magistrate’s Court. In consequence of his having no money to defray the expense, he was obliged to inform Mr. Morrison of the necessity of discontinuing the importation of deer. If the House would vote a sum for the purpose, there would be no difficulty in continuing the importation of animals, birds, &c., proposed by Mr. Stafford, and the bumble bee in particular, the only practicable way of importing which he explained to the House. [His remarks on this topic created much amusement in the House, and he concluded his very humorous speech amidst loud cheers and continued laughter.] After a few remarks from Mr. HARRISON, The motion was put and agreed to. THE CREW'S OP THE BRIO “ PRINCE EDWARD.” Mr. WELD moved “ For the copy of any report of the Resident Magistrate at Mongonui of recent occurrences connected with the European and Maori crews of the whaling brig ‘ PrinceEdward,’ or if no such report has been yet received, that application bo made to the Resident Magistrate to furnish a report on the subicct Motion agreed to, the ATTORNEY-GENERAL stating that no report had yet been received, but that immediate steps would bo taken to procure it. PRIVATE GRIEVANCES, The Hon. Mr. MANTELL moved, “ That the petition of Tamihana Te Rauparaha, Matcne To Whiwhi, and Hohepa Tamaihengia, be referred to the Committee of Private Grievances.” Agreed to after a short discussion. Mr. THOMPSON moved, “That the petition of Thomas Hughes be referred to the Committee of Private Grievances.” Agreed to. AMENDMENT OF THE LAW RELATING TO DEBTORS AND CREDITORS AND MINOR CIVIL CASES. On the motion of the Hon. Mr. GILLIES the following gentlemen were appointed a Committee to con aider and report as to the expediency of introducing some more simple and less costly procedure for the trial of civil cases of minor importance, and also to consider the expediency of amending the law relating to debtors and creditors. The conimittc* to consist ol Mr. James Williamson. Mr. Brandon, Mr. Thomson, and Mr. Russell, with liberty to confer with any committee of the Legislative Council on the like subjects. f!o report on the 13th instant.” NOMINATION OF SUPERINTENDENTS’ BILL. Mr. FITZGERALD moved for and obtained leave to bring in a Bill intituled an Act to provide for the nomination of Superintendents of Provinces by his Excellency the Governor, and for vesting the powers of Superintendents in certain cases in Lieutenant or Deputy-Governors. . . . Bill read a first time, ordered to he printed forthwith and to be read a second time on Friday next, returns. On the motion of Mr. STAFFORD the following Returns were ordered, . . „ A return of the number of persons in the L»ommission of the Peace for New Zealand on the 2nd July, 1861; and of the names of all persons since added to the commission, to the present date, with their respective residences, and the dates of their appointment. Also, for copies of all correspondence with the Government between the 2nd July, 1861. and the 30th July, 1862, relative to the appointment of justices of the PC “ C Copies of all communications from, or instructions issued to commissioners, resident magistrates, or other officers of Government, relative to the natives, ot to native questions, since the Ist January, 186- m addition to papers already presented to the House. “A return showing the number of troops m New Zealand during the year ended 30th respect of which the contribution of ( the colony towards military expenses is calculated. REPORT ON TUB PETITION OF MAJOR HERBERT, DANIEL KEEFE, AND OTHERS. Mr JOLLIE moved and Mr. JNO. WILLIAMSON 'seconded the adoption of the report of Private Grievances Committee on above letitions. “The Select Committee on Private Grievances beg to submit to the House the following report on the petitions of Major Herbert, Keefe, and others P “ Petition of Charles St. John Herbert. -In ~ Muior Herbert states that ho served in ' “ the North and South of Now Zealand during the war of 1845-46 when ho was Severely wounded ; that he subsequently ret.rcd from the army, and settled in New Zealand; that he has • wMn the colony for two years and a-half since his resided the colony .or of which timc he w“tkcly employed m command of the Taranaki lu-iitin that ho was not aware at the time of his Sem’enf of the particular provisions of the Land retirement o i Province G f Auckland, but was Regulations that an officer retiring from the - - J c C tiling in the colony, would be entitled to army? within five years after such retirement, • an t d »H ofwithin one year from that date, as is required I"® Waite Lands Act of 1858, at present force A and the petitioner prays for relief accordingly. 'Phn inmmitteo having considered this petition, and 1 tafc ß g#* 1* W-

the case, is of opinion that the claim for special consideration may fairly be considered, and that the provisions of the Auckland Waste Lands Act requiring the application of a military officer to be made within twelve months from retirement, for a money certificate, enabling him to acquire land free of cost, should be waived in this particular case. “ Petition op Keefe and Others. —The petitioners are discharged soldiers who obtained their discharge in 1855, for the purpose of settling in the Province of Auckland, and selected land there under what are .called the ‘ special occupation clauses’ of the Auckland Waste Land Regulations of that year. Those clauses impose the condition that improvements to the amount of ten shillings an acre shall be made on the land before a crown grant of it can be acquired; and, as that condition has not been complied with by the petitioners, they are unable to obtain a title, although, as they state, ‘ if they had been discharged at the present time they would, under the land regulations now in force within the Province, have been entitled to select land without any such condition being attached.’ The claim of the petitioners is in point of principle the same as that of Colonel Balneavis, which the Private Grievance Committee of last session reported on, and the Assembly recognised by special enactment. The committee beg to recommend the passing of an Act authorising the issue of grants to the petitioners for the land which they have respectively selected. It may be as well for the committee to mention here that besides the eight persons who have actually signed the petition, there would appear, according to u memorandum by the Waste Lands Commissioner at Auckland, which has been laid before them, to be nine others (or their representatives) similarly situated in every respect, and whoso cases therefore will, equally require to be disposed of in any measure which the House may think proper to entertain on the subject. In connection with the petitions just reported on, the committee have agreed to the following resolution, which they submit for the consideration of the House; —‘ That in the opinion of this committee no petitions for compensation in land, nor any claims for special consideration arising out of the land regulations of any Province, should bo entertained by the House of Representatives until an opportunity shall have been afforded to the Council of the Province concerned, to express its opinion thereupon.’ ”

Mr. WATT spoke in favour of amending the Act of 1858, so as to enable retired and discharged men to select in any Province. He was opposed to legislation for excepted cases. Mr. JNO. WILLIAMSON had no objection to the adoption of the suggestion just made, if Major Herbert desired to select land in Taranaki ho ought to be enabled to do so; all that he (Mr, W.) desired was that the technical difficulty which prevented that officer from obtaining his land in the Province of Auckland might be removed. That difficulty could only be got over by the legislation of the Assembly the Waste Lands Act of 1858 having taken it out of the power of the Provincial Council to pass laws relating to the disposal of the waste lands, otherwise the petitions under consideration would not have been brought before the House. Mr. FITZHERBERT, Mr. CRACROFT WILSON, Mr. CARTER, and several other members objected to the passing of any law by the Assembly which would interfere with the action of the Piovincial Legislatures in dealing with their own waste lands. The cases set forth in" the petitions from Auckland were sped alones, and ought to be so dealt with. Major RICHARDSON thought that these cases ought to be referred back for the consideration of the Provincial Legislature, and would move an amendment to that effect

Mr. ROBERT GRAHAM would support the adoption of the report. He thought that the explanations given by the Superintendent of Auckland were sufficient to show that the power of granting the redress sought by the petitioners did not now rest with the Provincial Legislature. Mr. CARLETON would not object to the adoption of the report, further than that he thought it should be referred back to the committee for the purpose of having the recommendation to “ waive the provisions of the Waste Laud Regulations” in tiiis particular case put into some other terms. The House ought to take care how they interfered with regulations that had become law in the Provinces.

Mr. O’NEILL was agreeably surprised at the carefulness of Provincial Council privileges which was displayed on this occasion. When he, in a former session, moved in that direction he was not supported by those who were now so jealously careful of the rights of the Provincial Governments. He supported the adoption of the report. After further explanation by Mr. WILLIAMSON, pointing out the delay that would be caused by the adoption of Mr. Richardson’s amendment, it was withdrawn and the report was adopted without alteration. NATIVE POLICY. Mr. FITZGERALD rose to move the following resolutions: — “I. That, in the adoption of any policy or the passing of any laws affecting the Native race, this House will keep before it, as its highest object, the entire amalgamation of all Her Majesty’s subjects in New Zealand into one united people. “2. That this House will assent to no laws which do not recognise the right of all Her Majesty’s subjects of whatever race within this Colony, to a full and equal enjoyment of civil and political privileges. “ 3. That a recognition of the foregoing principle will necessitate the personal aid of one or more Native chiefs in the administration of the Government of the Colony ; the presence of members of the Maori nobility in the Legislative Council, and a fair representation in this House of a race which constitutes one-third of the population of the Colony. “4. That the same principal ought to be respected in the constitution and jurisdiction of all Legislative bodies subordinate to the General Assembly, and of all courts of law within this Colony. “5. That a respectful address be presented to His Excellency the Governor, praying that His Excellency will be pleased to cause such steps to be taken, us he may be advised will bring the policy above indicated into operation with the least possible delay.” —Mr. Speaker, if I were to say that I rise with a feeling of great diffidence to move the resolutions standing on the paper this evening, I should very feebly express my sense of the weight which oppresses me when I contemplate the task I have undertaken. It is not only a sense of my own inability rightly to fulfil so great a trust—although that is a consideration which is painfully present to me—nor is it the conviction that I am addressing so many who, being far better acquainted with Native affairs, may regard with little interest anything that may full from myself; but it is, sir, a recollection of the grave responsibility which rests upon any man, who takes upon himself, in the present critical relations of two races openly suspicions and covertly hostile, in any way to interfere with the policy affecting those relations. Sir, I should feel this responsibility to be far greater than it is, if the resolutions I am about to move were opposed to the policy of the Queen’s Government in the Colony; but I hope I shall leave the impression on the mind of the House before I sit down, that the resolutions on the paper, in so far as they affect the policy of the Government at all, in reality aid and assist it; and, in fact, that they spring out of the same idea, go in the same direction, and tend to the same result. Sir, under the charge which may bo brought against me of presumption in attempting to give advice upon Native matters to those who arc much better acquainted with the subject than I can pretend to be, I am sustained by considerations arising out of a perusal of the papers, not only those laid on the table this session, but also those more voluminous documents which have been before you during the last two years; for I think no man who has given Ids attention to the questions discussed in this Colony during these last two years, can fail to be struck with this idea, that the application of the old proverb, “doctors differ,” ought not to be confined to professors of medical science only. There is hardly a fact stated by one native authority which is not contradicted by another—scarcely an opinion which has been expressed on one side of the House which has not been the subject of ridicule on the other. Although the greatest ability, the widest experience, and the most extensive information have been made use of by the Government in Native affairs, wo shall all agree that the condition of those affairs at this moment is a sad and miserable mess. If, therefore, the policy I have the honor to propose in these resolutions should, after being tried, fail of success, I shall have the satisfaction of thinking that it will have shared no worse a fate than the wisest of the schemes which have preceded it. But I venture to believe that we have hitherto been placing too much reliance on small points of technical knowledge, and forgetting those great elements of human character, common to all men in virtue of their common humanity, I venture to believe it is not by any particular acquaintance with this or that characteristic of the Maori people, or with their peculiar traditions or customs, that wc shall be able to fix our grasp on those powerful affections, which he feels in common with his fellow-man of every race and under all climes. 1 venture to believe that it never has been by poring over little details of character, or peering into the little accidents of society, that great men have ever been able to master the turbulent passions of savage races. And therefore, at starting, I protest against the doctrine that it is only those who arc acquainted with native superstitions, or j who arc accustomed to deal with the natives in the 1 daily intercourse of trade, who arc able to expound to 1 i»f the social $K| political relations wo may

or which it may he possible to establish. Not that I would underrate the valuable knowledge acquired by those who have studied the Maori language and customs: all I am saying is, that a man may bo a very fair Maori scholar without being a great statesman. My hon. friend the Native Minister (Mr. Dillon Bell) will understand that I do not intend to apply that remark to him, for I recognise in him for the first time one i° rr*? exerc ' se< l considerable influence in the political affairs of this House and of the Colony, and who, at the same time, has a thorough acquaintance with the native language and character. It-is for the first time we recognise such an individual at the head of the Native Government in this country. I am perfectly aware that it would be impossible to carry even the wisest policy into satisfactory operation, if we were deprived of the assistance which men who have acquired that information must necessarily be able to afford. All I say is, that the Maori students and scholars can tell us in a few words all that is necessary wo should know, to guide us in the adoption of a policy one way or the other. It is only necessary for us to know the broad and general outlines of Maori characters from the time that the race first came under our observation to enable us to guago and measure the possibility of the value of the institutions we may wish to establish.. I will allude for a moment to this Maori character. It will be admitted on all hands that the Maori is a man who exhibits in a remarkable degree a capacity for intellectual and social improvement. I remember when I was a child reading the few books then existing on the subject of New Zealand—poring over the massacre of the “ Boyd,” and the career of Hongi. It is more than thirty years ago since I first listened to tales of New Zealand life, from the mouth of a missionary who had seen what he described. When I remember what the Maori was then, and when I know what he is now; when I see how readily ho grasped the mysteries of a lofty faith, and to how great a degree he accommodated his conduct to the requirements of his new belief; when I sec how rapidly he penetrated the intricacies of commercial intercourse, and know to what extent he has sacrificed the constitutional lassitude of his disposition to engage in the paths of industrial enterprise, I say I know of no race in any period of the world’s history which has made in so short a time so great a stride. Looking at other nations in similar circumstances, it seems to me that the transformations which we arc accustomed to consider as the growth of slow years, have in this race been brought within the experience of a single life-time. Again, I shall not perhaps be contradicted if I say that the Maori is a man of generous and courageous disposition. I do not take this fact simply from the struggle of the Maoris with ourselves in the recent, or in former wars, but from all the facts which have come under our cognisance in every day life—for example, from the knowledge of them as sailors and whalers both in the longshore service and in deep-sea fisheries. Again, I suppose I may be allowed to assume—l suppose all those not greatly prejudiced will admit—that the Maori is a man of remarkable intellectual capacity, with a strong and vivid imagination, considerable power of reasoning, great political aptitude, and great diplomatic capacity. 1 have seen speeches and letters emanating from Maoris, in the course of the recent struggles, which shew me that he has a most keen perception of his policy, towards us, and of the result of our actions towards him. I do not say that he agrees with us; but it is just where he docs not agree that he seems to possess the independent capacity of weighing motives and actions. I have seen documents from Maoris that would have done justice to any diplomatist in the world. And these papers before me on the tabic teem with evidence of the extraordinary intelligence of the Maoris in matters connected with the policy of the British Government towards them. I wish, in ray remarks this evening, to avoid tiring the House with long extracts; but on this point, which is an important one—the character and capacity of the Maoris—l cannot help asking the attention of the House to a single short quotations from the report of Mr. Gorst, a gentleman of all those who have furnished reports to the Government, who gives perhaps the lowest view of the Maori character and prospects. Now what docs he say in speaking of the Council of King Matuteare, at Ngaruawahia:—“Of the acuteness and wisdom of these men, I feel bound to speak in the very highest terms. In all questions which 1 have heard discussed by them, they have argued with calmness and good temper, kept steadily to the point at issue, looked at the question from every side and faced all its difficulties, and have usually come to a just decision. In their opposition, they have never behaved with anything approaching to rudeness. It would be impossible to find a body of men with whom the Government could more advantageously consult upon the subject of laws and regulations for the Natives.” Now, sir, when I think what Mr. Gorst himself is—a gentleman who stands in a very high rank of intellectual capacity - who has attained the highes thonours at one of the English Universities—when I think that there is no man in this country better able to measure the character of those men, and to compare them with the high standard of those with whom he has been accustomed to associate—l think the House will agree with me, the language he has used fully justifies the desepiption I am givingof the Maori character. Then, I suppose, again, it will be admitted that the Maoris are a remarkably justice-loving people. Why, sir, I have heard the Maori spoken of as in t e same category with Algerine corsairs and Chinese pirates. Now, I wish to ask, is it not the fact that these pirates and corsairs know they are repudiating all human law and justice whatsoever—that they know what right and law is,but arc living in opposition to it, for the purpose of plunder and gain. Now. has there over been one fact shewn indicating such a spirit on the part of the Maoris since they have been under our cognizance ? It is notentirely true -I ask these even who have recently been engrged personally in the strife with them—that were the Maori differs from us, it is because he believes he is right? Let me allude for a moment to the unfortunate event which lately occurred at Wanganui; and I ask the House candidly to say whether, if in that unfortunate struggle it had been the Englishman who had been killed, do wo believe that the English settler, in the present irritated state of feeling between the two races, would have come forward as the Maoris did, in such an open and direct manner, and have said—“ it is our man who has been in fault.” I think, then, the House will agree with me that the Maories are a very justicelovin* "people. I do not say that they have no faults, 1. have been told that they are a very fickle and improvident race: but a recollection of the unfortunate failings of my own countrymen induces mo to ask the House to look on those faults with a somewhat lenient eye. But if you are inclined to despise the constitutional infirmity of the Celt, at all events you will be prepared to do all honour to the characteristic virtue of the Saxon—his power of bargaining and making money and of that vou certainly have a very fair imitation in Maori character. I do not think, sir, I have overrated the character of the Maori. And I have dwelt upon it for this reason, because in a clear appreciation of this point lies all our hope for the future, as ought also to lie the basis of all our policy for the present. I ask myself this question—is the Maori a man capable of being raised to the same rank of civilization in which we stand? and the answer I give is, that however we may be blinded by the unfortunate antagonism of our position, posterity will derive sufficient from the history of these times to decide, that the Maori is a man who might have been, and ought to have been, raised to that stage of civilization which we ourselves enjoy, if not by his own efforts, at all events by amalgamation with the higher race with which ho has been brought into contact. And 1 ask to what an extent has not that amalgamation gone already? To what an extent has not the Maori already adopted our manners, habits, and customs? What does he not owe to us? Is he not at this moment dependent on us for half the necessaries and all the luxuries of his life? His horses, his cattle, his sheep, and his pigs are our gifts. His clothing is the produce of our looms. His sugar and tobacco aro brought to him in our ships. The tools which he uses are forged on our anvils. The very guns which he points at us come out of our furnaces, and the gunpowder with which he shoots us is manufactured in our mills. And if we turn from the physical to the intellectual conditions of his existence, has not that barrier between nations, religious faith, been broken down between us; and when he lisps the petitions of a faith he has learned from us, does ho not do so in a language so modified by English ideas, and so changed by English words, as almost entirely to have supplanted the ancient language of his forefathers? Then, sir, the proposition which I have to the House to-night is this —that the amalgamation ot the two races which has gone on, has gone on in spite of a policy of disunion and severance on the part of our Government. And the practical issue which 1 put to the House is this,—l ask you to put an end now and for ever to that policy. I hope I shall not weary the House if I refer for a short time to the history of our relations with the Maori people over since they first came under our cognizance. I am not going to detain the House with a narration of dry facts with which all present are as well acquainted as myself. 1 merely want to get so much from the past as to throw some light on the futuro, and to enable mo to establish the justice of the propositions I am making to the House. It seems to me then that Maori society and European society have como iu contact in three distinct points irom which, as Irom three pebbles thrown into a pond, three separate circles of influences have extended themselves over the Maori people: these points I call the Colonists, the. Missionaries, and the Government; and I wish to say a few words upon each. First, I wish to ask briefJy, what has been the action ot the Colonists on the Maori people? I will pass over those early times in jvlud} those in with $ the qtlter is-

lands of the Pacific, were looked upon with a sort of superstitions horror, as the scenes of fearful massacre and bloodshed. And yet if we could draw up the veil which hangs over the history of those times, we should recognise that almost all those deeds of violence were acts of revenge for wrong upon our part, of which no record now remains in this world. We know how little restraint our countrymen aro sometimes in tbe habit of putting on their lusts and passions, when beyond the restrains of our law, and beyond the reach of public opinion. But it is a remarkable fact, that, after this universal opinion as to the native character, the moment settlers established themselves on these shores, their whole opinion of the Maori became entirely changed. Instead of being and irreclaimable savage, he was found to be a man of warm and kindly affections, capable of most generous friendships and lasting attachments. The history of the relations between the early settlers and the New Zealand inhabitants, exhibits numberless instances justifying what I have been saying. I have always found that those who speak most kindly of the Maories, are those old settlers who established themselves in the country when they had no protection to look to except their own conduct and the friendship of the Chiefs under whom they lived. I think I should be justified in saying that the view which the Maori took in those times of the English settler, was not altogether a very flattering one; he looked upon him as a sort of useful stranger, but inferior to himself in all the qualities which he most admired and esteemed; and there is some reason to suppose, that that opinion is not altogether changed at the present time. He looks upon us sometimes even now as useful mechanics, who makes his guns and blankets for him; but he has no personal respect for us as a superior race, or personal fear of us as an enemy. But nothing is more remarkable than the strong personal friendships which appears to have grown up between the two races, so long as they were free and uninterfored with. Had a fight occurred between two English countries, or, what used to he frequently the case, between two Irish factions, or between two Highland clans, I may safely assert that the state of animosity between those two parties would have been much greater than it is at this moment between the English and the Maoris, even on the scene of the recent hostilities. I take this as a remarkable proof of the possibility of the two races to live in union and in peaceful intercourse with one another. Some instances may be adduced in which Englishmen may seem to have a hatred and contempt for the Maori. You will find in these papers complaints by chiefs that some of the settlers are in the habit of speaking to them as “ black niggers” and “ bloody Maories,” But this is only as much to say, that amongst the English settlers there arc some ruffians and blackguards—and we did not come to New Zealand to learn that. But I do not believe, that this is the general attitude of the English to the Maori race. The history of the colony shews us that there is no personal antipathy or antagonism existing between the two races. Our men marry their women, and the late census shows that, in some few instances, our women have married their men. There are not more, if so many, personal quarrels between the members of the two races, as between members of either race amongst themselves. Where the antagonism first arises is when the Maori comes in contact with our commercial progress; only at that point where his possession of the land interferes with our industrial and commercial progress, there for the first time we trace antagonism between the two races; and I maintain that this has been increased, if not produced, by our peculiar laws for the acquisition of native lands. I come, then, to the general conclusion—that there is no disunion between the two races that is natural and necessaiy, that the difference between them is artificial and adventitious; and as it has been created by ourselves, so by ourselves it can and ought to be removed. This is the conclusion I wish to deduce in respect to the intercourse between the colonists and the Maories. I come now to speak of the Missionaries. And before I speak of them, as I shall have to do, in terms of qualified condemnation, I wish first to express my humble tribute of admiration at the successful and triumphant labours of this noble brotherhood. It is to them that the Maori owes the largest part of this civilization which he has at present learned from us. Speaking as politician, and wholly without reference to religion or religious feeling, I say that the work the Missionary has done in converting the Natives to Christianity, is one the magnitude of which can never be over estimated by a statesman. For history teaches mo that of all the obstacles to national and political union, the most terrible is that interposed by religious superstition, and by differences of religious belief. That is the great stumbling block in the statesman’s way, and that stumbling block the Missionary has cleared out of our path for ever. But when the influence of the Missionory first became injurious, was in his opposition to the colonisation of the country, and in the jealousy he exhibited towards the colonists. I am not going to say that if I look solely to the advantage of the Maori people the Missionary was not right. 1 know the Missionary had a great excuse for supposing that the colonists would exercise a pernicious influence on the Maories. I believe that this Province alone could offer instances in which civilisation and Christianity have been elevated and degraded in the eyes of the Maoris by some few of the first settlers, —and those not only of the lower orders. The mistake the Missionary made was, that he should have been very well assured he could stop the colonization of the country, before he gave utterance to the wish to do so. More fiir seeing men would have known that they might as well have attempted to stop the ocean’s tide, as to prevent the influx of European colonists to these shores; and their whole policy should have been moulded accordingly. But that 1 will not weary the House with quotations, I could prove without difficulty, by a thousand instances, that the attitude which the Missionary assumed towards the colonists was one of a hostile and jealous character, and, to that extent, an attitude which created and induced a policy of disunion and severance between the two races. But, whatever mistake the Missionary may have made on this point, it was repeated with far more pernicious effect by Ministers at home, and by the colonial Government in the colony. From the very moment when it became obvious that these islands were about to become the scene of British colonisation, all far-seeing men ought to have perceived that from that moment the doom of the natives was virtually in the hands of the British colonists. It ought to have been foreseen that ultimately the whole powers within these islands would some day be exercised by the British settlers. Statesmen had indeed a very difierent opinion then from what they have now, as to the rights of British colonists. There were politicians in those days who thought that a form ot arbitrary government in the hands of a Governor was a satisfactory, and indeed an enduring form of Anglo-Saxon society. Eut more sagacious men perceived that the time must come, when the word Government would only mean the will of the British inhabitants of these islands. And, foreseeing that, all their policy ought to have been moulded accordingly. What I am saying would have been true, had not the people been permitted, as they have been, to political power. It ought to have been foreseen that nothing in the world would ultimately prevent the natives being swept out of the path of the English settlers —as I now say nothing ever will prevent their being swept out of our path —except the determined resolution on the part of the settlers themselves to protect and preserve them. The one great error which has pervaded all our relations with the Maoris, from the first interference of the Missionaries to the last unfortunate clinging to personal power in Native affairs on the part of the late Governor—-has been this policy of disunion and severance, spreading jealousy between the two races. Why, what has been the policy of the Government ? Has it not been to assume Irom the first as a matter of course that the moment the colonists got power, they would inflict some terrible injury on the Natives? Has not this been the whole tenor of Colonial Ofllce instructions and Colonial Governor’s despatches ? and have we not heard the same charge recently echoing from the mouth of a respectable canon at home ? Look for a moment at our constitutional history. W as it not the case that wo were, for many years, defrauded of our constitutional rights, solely on the ground that we could not exercise them with fairness to the aboriginal inhabitants of the colony ? Was it not the case that until quite recently (for I am told that a despatch has been read in the House to day from the Duke of Newcastle which may presently alter this state of things)—that there were two governments in the colony, one the Parliament exercising authority over the English inhabitant, and the other the absolute will of the Governor, exorcising authority over the Maoris, thus symbolising in the highest quarters the fatal principle that a distinct line demarcation ought to be drawn between the two races. Then, again, let me refer to our land policy. Has not our mode of acquiring land from the Natives been basdo on this idea that the English were not to be permitted to intermingle with the Natives? We bought large tracks of lands from the Natives on which alone Europeans were allowed to settle, so as to force the Europeans to live in one part of the colony and the Maories in another. I do not say that under any circumstances or any policy that would not have been to a great extent the result; but what I complain of is that instead of recognising this as an evil to bo removed by time and mutual intercourse, the whole of our laws seemed to he aimed at perpetuating it as long as possible. Before the Queen’s Government was established here there was hardly a pah in the country which had not got a European living in it. It is not in the nature of things that that progress must have gone on, had not the Crown, with the colonisation of the country, i stepped in, and by its peculiar mode of acquiring the ' Native |gn4, put ah absolute hgt-fjor tp sf(t; iflfcrfph

■gling of the two races; separating them, one into one part of the country, tod another into another. I konw it will be said that if these laws had not been made the Maoris would hare lost all their land for much less than its value, and constant quarrels would hare occurred between the settlers and the Maoris on the subject of tide. That is exactly what I used to say myself. In 1854 when I was called on at a very short notice to frame a policy for the colony, in conjunction with my two hon. friends opposite (Mr. Weld and Mr. Bell) and the late Attorney-General (Mr. Sewell), I gave my voice in favour of the continuance of the present system of land purchase from the Natives. Further consideration of the subject and a larger acquaintance with facts, have induced me entirely to change my opinion on that point Sir, I will only add that I am now quite satisfied that sufficient guarantees might have been provided to have obviated both of those evils. Now, passing from the laws for the acquisition of land to our statute book, I am sorry to trace precisely the same policy of disunion pervading some of the laws of the colony. In all the Constitution we have had, there has been a power given for restraining the operation of English laws in what are called Maori districts. Even in the Constitution Act there was a power reserved to the Governor to set aside certain Native districts, within which Maori law and customs should be retained—though what rite term Maori law may mean I leave to the doctors of that remarkable system of jurisprudence to expound—but no Governor was ever so ill-advised as to act on this power. In the legislation of 1858, however, I find a distinction drawn between the law of the land in one part of the colony and in another; based on the difference of the ownership of the soil. I don’t wish my hon. friends opposite to suppose that I disapprove altogether of that legislation in native matters; I am only saying this in this one respect, we appear to have gone one step farther from the right direction, that is in drawing a dear line of demarcation between the law in Native and in European districts, based upon the ownership of the soil: and, sir, in these institutions which are now being imposed on the Natives, by the Governor, and by the hon. triends on that-bench, I shall have occasion to shew that the same fault exists. I have now traced the operation of the English upon the Maories through these three principal channels, the colonists, the missionaries and the Government; and I hope I have brought the House to the conclusion, that there has been, on the whole, a tendency between the two races to unite themselves into one—a tendency which has been opposed from the first, partly by the influence of the missionary, and more recently by the operation of the Government. I am now about to ask the House to look, for a short time, at what the present state of the Maori is in reference to ourselves. I spoke just now in terms which I do not think were exaggerated, of his character and capacity. But when you look at the reports before you, you must come to the conclusion that the Maori race at this moment is in a state of decay. It is painfully evident that the advance which be made in civilization through twenty-five or thirty years of intercourse with us, has come to an entire check ; and I proceed to ask what are the causes of that check. Now, for the facta alluded to in Mr. Gorst’a report, I think they are for for the most part attributable to the late war. And I must say that if anything could terrify me from a war policy again, it would be a perusal of these reports, and the view of the melancholy pictures they draw of parts of the Northern Island, —schools deserted—lands untilled—mills in decay, as if war had swept over the whole western coast of the Northern Island. Apart, however, from this, I think it is evident that before the war broke out, the Natives were in a state of retreat from a condition of civilization. Now, there are three principal causes which may be assigned as the origin of this check ; and this is a most important point to which I wish to call the attention of the House; because,

if these causes are beyond our control, we have nothing to do but to mourn over the grave of the Native race j but, if they are under our control, then it becomes our solemn and imperative duty to get rid of these causes. The first cause is one which has been frequently mentioned before, the state of anarchy into which the race has fallen owing to the decay of the power of the old chiefs. But I do not join in lamenting the decay of that power, because it was necessary before yon could establish any civilized institutions. lam satisfied that the power of the chief depended mainly on heathen superstitions and customs ; and the introduction of Christianity was itself the cause of the decay of that power. The race has fallen into a state of political anarchy, because no institutions have been given it in the place of those which it has lost The next point that occurs to me as a principal cause of this decay is that the Native seems to have lost the old arts of savage life before he has acquired the new arts of a civilized people. I will ask the attention of the House to one point, I will not say in evidence, ot this— for thoco groat principles wo must deduce not from single facts, but from a variety of collateral in stances—therefore, not by way of proof, but rather of illustration, I will quote one passage from the reports on the table. In the village rnnangas there has been a good deal of discussion as to the building of court-houses, and it has been a matter of discussion how they should build them. I find in the report from the Lower Waikato one chief, Noa, says, “I am in favor of a raupo building because I do not know how to build a wooden house—but I understand raupo work” ; whilst at another Runanga in the same district another chief says, “ If I could find sawyers 1 would have a wooden house : what is the good of a raupo building ? it is always out of repair; besides all my people are young men, and don’t know how to build raupo houses.” This is a remarkable illustration of the principle I was mentioning. The Natives have lost the old arts of savage life, which formerly enabled them to live in comparative comfort and plenty, and have not acquired the new arts of the people amongst whom they now live. Another, and more important cause of their decay is an intellectual one. The Maoris seem to me to hare got into that state in which their intellectual condition is inferior to their physical existence. I mean that state which we have ourselves seen in the Chartist at home, a degrading consciousness ot an inferior position, a longing for something superior to their present condition, and a entire ignorance how to attain it. This seems to me a patent cause of their present decay. They are growing: and we have not provided for their growth. It is like the growth of a child. If you give it the same food at ten years which you gave it at ten months, the child pinen and starves on what once satisfied and fattened it. That is the case with the Maori people. Looking, then, at these principles, I require no farther explanation whatever of ail this land league and king movement. * The Maori wants institutions and cannot get them. What did the old chief at Tongariro say to Mr. Law—speaking of these institutions of Sir George Grey’s? “If these things had been given before, there would never have been a King Native in Taupo.” This is the key to the whole thing. I do not wish to wake up another discussion as to the cauees of the late war, but there is one expression used in a memorandum before the House by the late Colonial Treasurer, Mr. Richmond—a gen - tleman whose name I cannot mention without expressing my own deep regret and that, I think, of the House generally, that in a debate of this kind we should be deprived of his wise counsels and sagacious and philosophical mind. In that memorandum Mr. Richmond seems to speak in terms almost of contempt of those who think that the King movement originated in the wish for law. He says it is not a desire for law, but for a separate nationality. Sir, I admit that what the Natives want is a separate nationality. But is not this pining for a nationality the offspring of a desire for law and order ? Is not the desire for a higher political and social organisation the very goal of nationality? Is it not the want of all that machinery which is involved in the idea of the word “ nation” which is the veiy characteristic of savage tribes aa opposed to a nation? And, I now ask the House, can there bo a more hopeful instinct on the part of any people ? When we see a nation for the first time pining for nationality, ignorantly striving to attain their end, but with very little idea of all the pain and labour to be endured before a nation can be bom into the world, yet still reaching upwards with instinctive longings, if so be the disjointed elements of their society may be united into the form and fashion of a perfect nation,—l ask, is not that a sign and token to us that one great step has been made in the national life of this people ? It is like the change from boyhood to manhood 5 on some men it steals slowly ; on others it comes with the snddenness of a revelation: event* occur which arouse the slumbering consciousness, and the man looks back and finds his boyhood gone for ever. And so it is with a people. You will never again make the Maori what he was before this King movement. He has been pondering, and enquiring, and reasoning, and undergoing a wonderful political education, —and I warn you, I warn this House, how you attempt to give him political institutions which yon fancy are suited to his present condition, when that condition itself is rapidly passing into another. There are few men who, in these times of revolution in the mind of a people, can look far enough ahead ; few men who can realize the transformation which, is taking place before their own eyes. And now, sir, as old Lord Chatham once said to the Commons of England, speaking of the Americans, “ Sir, I am glad that the Americans have rebelled,” so now I say to this Home, —I am glad that the Natives have setup a separata nationality. I say I am glad for yoursakes, because, next to the debasement of living in the midst of a slave population, there is nothing so corrupting as living surrounded by savage tribes : therefore, I am glad for your sakes that the Natives have given this one great sign of a spring-time in their national life; And now I say there was but one single answer to that actional movement of the Waikatos. The N»tivf|

were a long time pondering about this movement. I believe the Native department were not aware ot tnat fact; They were engaged in more impoitant avocations. They were looking about for little favorable investments in land at the W aitara, or giving a p g to this man or a little grass seed to that man, and to their special favorites a little valuable advice. The Native department, I say, was engaged in too important avocations to perceive a great mental and politica. revolution going on in a race whoso interests they wore lookin'- nfter. However, it is certain the Natives were along time before they took up this Kmg movement. And how did we moot it? I do not mention this as referring to one party or another in this House. This, sir, is a question in the presence of which party becomes utterly contemptible. lam speaking of us as a nation. And I ask how did wo meet this King movement? We looked on it with contempt; we thought it would die oat; wo thought a feeble and mercurial race would soon change this untoward mood. But we found that it was not a mood, it was a new-born instinct. And I say again, there was but one answer to this movement —it is the answer I ask the House to give to-night. The Natives wanted nationality. Say to them—- “ Accept our nationality, accept a far higher and noblci nationality growing up around you than any which you can create for yourselves.” Sir, I say, instead of denying or ignoring this precious new-born instinct, you ought at once to have appeased it by the fullest gratification, and thus to have absorbed the Native mind into your own. I turn now to the policy of the Government for the future. I have read with great attention all the papers laid on the table by the late Government, and cannot but express my opinion that the country is greatly indebted to those gentlemen for the activity and energy, and the decisive and judicious manner in which they appear in a very short time to have converted a paper scheme into something like a reality. I suppose my hon. friends on that bench are about to attempt and to carry out the policy of Sir George Grey and the late Ministry. No doubt you will meet with difficulties; bat if you carry that policy of the Governor’s to its legitimate conclusion—the conclusion indicated by these resolutions—l believe those difficulties will cease. But mark this—you are engaged in a career in which you cannot stop. There is a Chinese proverb T am fond of quoting—“ When a man gets on the back of a tiger, ho cannot get down.” That is the position of my ban. friends on that bench. They are engaged in a career in which they cannot stop. I believe the Natives will not very long be satisfied with these constitutional dolls you are giving them to play with. I believe there are elements in the system which you must get rid of, if you would have the slightest hope of success. You cannot maintain the principle involved in the Hunanga system that the law in different parts of the colony is to be co-extensive with the ownership of the soil At present you are rearing up courts of law and legislative bodies, and at the same time telling people there is the district over which their jurisdiction runs, but there is a part of the population which they cannot touch. Your law -will soon become contemptible in their eyes, if you attempt to keep up this distinction, lam very sorry that,Jin making these new institutions, the Governor did not at once adopt the distinct and obvious policy alluded to by tho Superintendent of Otago the other night (though in a manner which rendered it difficult to say whether ho meant tho suggestion in reality or as a sneer). I mean to say, that, in making these Native districts it is a pity you did not adopt the policy of incorporating them into your Provincial system—making the districts, in fact, new Provinces, and tho Civil Commissioners Superintendents. I believe in this way you might safely and speedily recognise the power of tho Maori King. Make him the Superintendent of his own Province, and 1 think he would accept tho position for the sake of tho great stability it would give to his own power, which he must bo aware is of a rather precarious character. I cannot help looking upon these paltry village Eunangas with considerable suspicion, on account of their smallness, their great distance one from tho other, tho great number of them, and the entire absence of all control on the part of the Government—all elements which will give tho Government great difficulty for the future. I want to know how you are going to get these village Eunangas to make a distinction between legislative and judicial functions? How are you going to prevent them conflicting with tho Assessors’ Courts in their immediate neighbourhood? These Ennangas are bodies at present exercising most unjust and unwise power, very often acting on no known law, but making a law for the occasion, and then putting it into force. If you arc not going to make tire Government responsible for these things, what machinery do you propose for avoiding that responsibility? How do you propose to provide that tho Government shall not bo responsible for tho cccentrio tioa of thooo occur to you that these small bodies, without control on the part of tho Government, may become centres of agitation, keeping the people from their work, keeping their minds occupied with small and petty grievances, and giving the Government a great deal of trouble? Whatever else they may be, these are certainly not English institutions of British law. Now, tho District Eunangas are something different, extending over districts of larger surface, comprising the more influential chiefs, their functions being more distinctly not judicial but legislative, and being under the presidency of n Civil Commissioner. For all these reasons, it seems to me that tho District Eunangas arc closely allied to the Provincial system; and, therefore, I look upon them with considerable hope. But, even in these largo District Eunangas, the one point I wish to impress on the Government is this—that they can have no real weight whatsoever, no real legislative authority whatsoever. Nor can your courts of law in these districts hare any real authority unless you make their jurisdiction co-extensive with tho whole of their geographical district. You cannot maintain that distinction of two authorities over the same district, one exercising tho power of the law over lands owned by the Natives, and the other the power of the law over lands which have passed to the Crown, keeping up that lino of demarcation between the two races which it should be the object of a wise policy, and which it is the object of these resolutions, to break down for ever. The House will now perceive at what tho fourth of these resolutions specially aims—at this conflicting jurisdiction evidently growing up between the Native courts and the European courts. Tho great point you have to instil into the Native mind is tho equality of all men in the eye of tho law. I would exclude, if possible, the word “ Native” from our legislation. You must endeavour to rear up in tho mind of tho Natives the conviction that there is something superior to these Eunangas, superior to the Assessors’ Courts, superior to this House, superior to the Governor, superior to the Queen herself—the abstract majesty of tho law itself, to which all must bow, from the Queen on her throne to the beggar in the streets—an idea which you will never get into the minds of the Natives unless you purify these institutions you arc giving them of this one great fault which pervades them ail. 1 should omit a very important part of this subject, if I were to say nothing on that great subject, the most important one to this Colony, how this principle of introducing English law amongst tiro Natives is really to aflect our land policy for the future. That is one great branch of the subject with which I ought to deal. I will not occupy the House very long iu enquiring what is'tho present state of tho Native title to land. I take it that the original title.of tho Natives to their land's when we came amongst them was tho single title of all savage tribes: that is to say, in tho eye of the law, little or no title at all. They had certain rights of use and occupation running over tho land, but nothing like a fee simple or legal estate in the soil. I take it that the Crown originally enters on land occupied by savage tribes either by right of discovery or right of conquest; but, in the case of New Zealand, by the treaty of Waitangi, and by tho preceding action of the Government in renouncing their rights by discovery to these islands, the Government did distinctly recognise a title to the land in the natives, entirely different to that which they recognised in any other savage tribes. Having renouncedall claims to the land, and therefore all power of disposing of it to the settlers, on the ground of discovery or conquest, it admitted that whatever estate it could obtain in the land would be through the natives. That is an important point in the native title, different from that arising from the conditions of any other savage tribes we know of. If, by the Treaty of Waitangi, the crown recognised that the natives had this title in the land, it recognised that it had no title itself but that which it might derive from them. But the important argument 1 wish to press upon the House 10-night is this, that whatever title the natives had to their lands at the time of the Treaty of Waitangi that title has been gradually changing, because the whole mind of tho natives as to the meaning of ownership has been changing front that time to the present. It is quite as idle on the one hand to say that the native title is in tho same state in which it was when they were entirely savage tribes, as it is on tho other to say that it is in that state that they understand the same thing of the rights and obligations of a fee simple as we do. Then if I have brought the House to this point that the native title is practically changing, what I want to ask is this —do you believe the time will ever arrive when the whole of the native lands will be disposed of under crown grant, when the whole of the native title will be extinguished and the land issued to settlers or to natives under crown grant? I am persuaded no man thinks anything of the kind, but that long before the time can arrive when the native title will be extinguished, that title will accommodate itself to our ideas of ownership. The question then is simply one of time, and I am myself persuaded that the time has arrived when Ihe natives have quite sufficient idea of title to enable us to deal with their lands in the ordinary way in tho qrdinary courts of law. I take it that there are

three distinct speoies of nativc ; tltle-to land (■‘first, the communal title, under which a great part of this Nurthern Island is held, over which there are no individual rights, but which is held by the tribe in common, just, as for example, as tho Irish Society hblds its estates in Ulster. The title to this estate in common seems to be of the same nature and as easily recognisable by law’ as the estate of a company such as that I have alluded to. The second description of title is that where a native has acquired a formal and specific property in a piece of land, but the right of the tribe is not extinguished. In the third case, "e know there are some very few cases in which land is held actually by individual title where there is no title on the part of tho tribe at all. Now, I do not wish the House to adopt all my explanations of the operation of these resolutions, but what I think they go to is this —that we should be prepared to recognize a distinct title on the part of the natives to their own lands. They are just as capable of being dealt with by British law as any titles amongst ourselves, That is the point to which these resolutions will lead. Again, I think that in this land question it is obvious that if these resolutions are to have any real meaning we must give up any idea of extinguishing native title by the crown. There can be no doubt in any man’s mind, who has watched the course of events, that tho reason the natives have set up these land leagues is to protect their race. They feel that they have disposed of one part of their lands and have got nothing for it, and they are anxious to preserve the other half. The Native Minister (Mr. Bell) could tell you of a speech which he heard made by an old chief at Otago, fully bearing out that view. They have disposed of their lands and have got nothing for it iu return. And, therefore, in any policy for the future, it seems to me to be an indispensable condition that this attempt to extinguish native title by the crown shall be entirely abandoned. Next, contrary to what you have done before, you must endeavour not to underrate the value of the estate which the natives have got, but to endeavour to shew them the gigantic property they possess; and so lead them to realize this idea,that it is only by disposing of a part of that estate that they can render the other part valuable; endeavouring to make them understand theirinterest in selling their land for their own sake. When the native once understands this, the time will come, and that very shortly, that there will be more land thrown into the market by the natives than there will be Europeans to buy. I know it will be said that there will be a great deal of difficulty in clearing up titles to native lands. Ido not wish to go fully into that subject at present, but I wish to put one important point, that this is not a question that we deal with now for the first time, but a difficulty which has been satisfactorily met and dealt with in other countries by the courts of law. The case of New Zealand in this respect is very much similar to the case of Ireland. There we had a race of Irish landlords [Mr. Fox: Not a race]. Well, I think I could shew that they were almost a distinct race. However, the Irish landlords were possessed of the soil of Ireland, and were too poor to be able to use it profitably. In Ireland, as hero, the proprietor of the soil had a difficulty in making out a title to his land. What did we do in that case? We established a court called the Encumbered Estates Court, the sole object of which was to ascertain title, and in the last twenty years I believe more than one-third [Mr. Stafford: More than a-halfj.—Well, then, more than a half of the soil of Ireland lias passed through that court. A perfect revolution has come over Ireland since that time. Instead of the landlords paying twenty-five shillings in the pound fur poor rates, as 1 have known in some instances, the poor rates in Ireland are now lower than in England. That court came to an end as it was only a temporary expedient to provide for a temporary emergency: but so valuable had this court become that it was made permanent under the name of the Landed Estates Court. Now, my hon. friend tho Native Minister will tell the House that he has passed through his court—the old land claims court — nearly half a million acres of land sold by natives to Europeans without the intervention of the crown. All of this land was sold between twenty and thirty years ago. Many of the witnesses to these transactions must be dead and gone. And yet the title of the whole of this half a million acres of land has been substantiated by Maori evidence, comparatively without dispute. This is a most amazing fact, and at once teaches us our future policy jn this country in respect to land, the application of the principles of English law to Maori soil. I would continue this Old Land Claims Court, and would give it the simple task of discovering whether the.title is good or bad. When a man purchases native land compel him to come into court to prove his title. When a Maori wants to individualize his title let him come into court in the same way and prove his title. If we get rid of the idea of the necessity of a crown grant and recognize the Maori title to the land in private transactions, I venture to say we should not have one case in five thousand in which any difficulty would occur. The native has quite intelligence enough to understand that if a number of Maoris sell land to an Englishman and do not bring all the parties interested in the land before the court, it is really an act of fraud, and would be punished accordingly. I would have notice given in a Maori Gazette of all cases to he heard in the court on a particular day before tire trial comes on. Judging from our experience of tire character of former transactions of a similar kind, I am certain there would be no difficulty whatever, in spite of the bugbears of the old native department, in clearing up all these miserable difficulties respecting titles to native lands. The House will perceive that these resolutions are directly opposed to the Native Lands Bill brought in by the late Government. For I do not think my hon. friend on my left (Mr. Fox) fully perceived the meaning of his Act. It simply says that the Governor shall have the power of ascertaining who were the real owners of native lands. But that is what lie does now. That is exactly what he did at the Waitara. That is just what we complain of. The Native Lands Bill only puts into the language of law what has been the miserable system pursued in the colony from time immemorial. If the crown itself buys land from the natives I would make it go into court and prove its title. But 1 will not go further into the Bill at present. I want, before leaving this part of my subject, to say a word to my hon. friends the members for Auckland on the subject of colonization. They must perceive that the present system of obtaining land has broken down by its own weight. And in abandoning the system of extinguishing native title by the crown they are only abandoning a system which was just abandoning them. The time will shortly arrive when you will get little more land from the natives, if any at till, under the present system, at all events without serious difficulties or disputes. The time has come when the system must cease altogether, and I wish to have it understood, and I think the people of Auckland will understand, that the time you will have to wait before the new system would come into operation would be a short one. The moment you cease nagging at the native for his lands, the moment you let him perceive the advantages to be derived from his great estate, and teach him that he cannot reap them without disposing of a part of his land, you will at once have more land thrown into the market by the natives themselves, at market prices, than you will have people to buy. I would wish to say one word before I sit down to the hon. members for Taranaki as to the effect which these resolutions will have on their present position. If we are going to extend British law, as a fact, to the Maoris, the last thing we ought to do is to deprive our own settlers of the protection of that law. The settlers of Taranaki are in the position of men who have hud their homesteads pillaged, and their houses burnt, not by foreign foes but by lawless subjects, and in England they would have a claim for compensation against the county, hundred, or borough, in short against that division of the country which was bound to protect them, that is, in their case, the colony. They stand precisely in the position of men whose properties have been destroyed by popular tumults. And I do not believe any policy will be honest or straightforward which does not look these difficulties in the face most steadily, and prepare to refund to the inhabitants of Taranaki the whole value of the property they have lost. The English settlers have been placed in this peculiar position by their obedience to the general policy of the colony. If you had left them alone to themselves; if they had been left to win their own way, sword in hand, like the pilgrim fathers of old, instead of being outcasts at this moment from tlieir ruined homes, they would be in possession of millions of acres conquered from a prostrate enemy. But, if, for the purpose of a general policy, they have been obliged to abstain from that course, we are bound to replace losses which we have forbidden them to retrieve. The whole test of the policy of lion, gentlemen on that bench will he tho solution of this Taranaki question. But you have it before you in this position: the colony is not now in a state of war, we come to this question after a do facto state of peace for two years. The colony will expect cither a peace policy, so wide and comprehensive, to be offered to the natives, as to enable the question to be satisfactorily settled and Taranaki to be restored quickly to its former position; or else it will expect some other measures to be taken. I will now say a few words in conclusion upon the future prospects of the Maori race us affected by this policy. I ask my hon. friends to look this in the face. What is the present aspect of the natives towards you? 1 say they distrust you. I say they do not believe in the peaceful professions either of tho Governor or of the Government. They think—l am speaking of a large portion of the population of the Northern Island which is still disaffected —they think that you are only waiting for an opportunity to pounce on their lands and supplant them for ever in the homes of their fathers. It is obvious, also, that a great part of them mistrust these institutions which you are inventing for them; audit is

natural that they 1 should mistrust institutions which they suppose are invented for our benefit, not for theirs. Should wo not do exactly the same in their place? Sir, I solemnly believe there are only two possible futures before thfe Maori people. You must be prepared to win their confidence, or you must be prepared to destroy them. If you do not win their entire confidence you will be compelled to destroy them. The present condition of things cannot last. The colonization of the Northern Island is almost stopped. The colony is eaten up by an enormous military force, and crippled l>y an enormous militarv ex—penditure, to which 1 see no reasonable termination, and which the lure advisers of His Excellency seem to have calculated on ns an important part of their scheme of government for some years to come. The present policy will break down in this particular. It does not, on the one hand, win the confidence of tho Natives ; on the other hand, it does not conquer them. On the one hand, the presence of that great army breeds such distrust in tho minds of tho Natives as to frustrate all your overtures of a peace policy; whilst, on tho other hand, your overtures of a peace policy do not win their confidence so as to enable you to dispense with the army. Now, sir, I believe that tho Governor is going in a right direction. I believe that he is right in endeavouring to obtain a peaceful solution of these difficulties; but you must go further than you have gone. You have not yet offered the Natives that price which they will ac< opt or ought to accept —I mean free institutions and equal laws with yourselves—the only price which they ever ought to accept in exchange even for that perilous and precarious independence they now enjoy. I propose now, that you offer them this policy, which recognises to the full equal laws and equal privileges as the right of all the inhabitants of these islands. Offer it to them not in,fear, not cringing for friendship or favor, not as a bribe to purchase their submission, but rather as a right which they may claim. Offer it—putting before them at tho same time the solemn alternative that no human power can avert their coming doom unless they unite their destiny with ours—offer it honestly, not with words of peace on your lips whilst in your hearts you are making ready for battle, and I for one believe they will accept your proposal. But, whether they vVill hoar or whether they will forbear, I solemnly believe this is the last chance for the Maori. The present state of things cannot last. The condition of the colony is not one of peace, it is a state of armed and suspicious neutrality. If you do not quickly absorb this King movement into "your own Government, you will come into collision with it, and once light up again the the torch of war in these islands, and these feeble and artificial institutions you are now building up will be swept away like houses of paper in the flames. Tribe after tribe will be drawn into the struggle, and you will make it a war ofraces. Of course you will conquer: but it will be the conquest of the tomb. Two or three yeai-s of war will eradicate every particle of civilization from the Native mind, and will elicit all, the fiercest instincts of his old savage nature. Tho tribes broken up, without social or military organisation, will bo scattered through the country in bands of merciless banditti. The conflagrations of Taranaki will be lighted up again in every border of tho colony; and in self preservation yon will be compelled—res other nations have been compelled before—to hunt the miserable native from haunt to haunt till ho is destroyed like the beasts of the forest. I am here to-night to appeal against so miserable, so inhuman a consummation. We arc here this evening standing on the threshhold of the future, holding the issues of peace and war, of life and of death, in our hands. I see some hon. friends around me whose counsels I must ever respect, and whoso tried courage we all admire, who will tell me that you cannot govern this race until you have conquered them. I reply in the words which the poet has placed in tho mouth of the great Cardinal —“ In the hands of men entirely great the pen is mightier than the sword. Take away tho sword, states may be saved without it.” I know, sir, well, that evil days may come when tho sacred inheritance of light and truth which God has given to a nation to hold and to transmit, may only be saved by an appeal to the last ordeal of nations—the trial by w’ar; but I know, too, how groat the crime which rests on the souls of those, who, for any less vital cause or for any less dire necessity, precipitate that fatal issue. I grudge not the glory of those who have achieved the deliverance of a people, or the triumph of a cause by any sacrifice of human'life or human happiness, but I claim a higher glory for those who, in reliance on a law more powerful than that of force, and wielding spells more mighty than the sword, have led the nations by paths of peaceful prosperity to the fruition of an enduring civilization. I claim a higher glory tor those who, standing on the pinnacle ofhuman power, have striven to imitate tho government of Him who “ taketh up the simple out of the dust and lifteth the poor out of tho mire.” And I claim the highest glory of all for that man who has most thoroughly penetrated that deepest and loftiest mystery in the art of human government—tho gentleness that maketh great. I have stood beside a lonely mound in which lies buried the last remnant of a tribe which fell, men, women, and children, before the tomahawks of their anc cat foes. And I sometimes shudder to think that my son, too, may stand beside a similar monument the work of our hands, and blush with the ignominy of feeling that, after all, the memorial of the Christian lawgiver is but copied from that of the cannibal and the savage. I appeal to-night to the House to inaugurate a policy of courageous and munificent justice. I have n right to appeal to you as citizens of that nation which, deaf to the predictions of the sordid and the timid, dared to give liberty to her slaves. I appeal to you to-night in your sphere to perform an act of kindred greatness. 1 appeal to you not only on behalf of that ancient race whose destinies are hanging in the balance, but on behalf of your own sons and your sons' sons—for I venture to predict that, in virtue of that mysterious law of our being by which great deeds once done become incorporated into tho life and soul of a people, enriching the source from whence flows through all the ages the inspiration of noble thoughts and the incitement to generous actions.—l venture to predict that among the traditions of tiiat great nation which will one day ride these islands, and the foundations of which wo are now laying, the most cherished and the most honored will bo that wise, bold, and generous policy which gave the Magna Charter of their liberties to the Maori people. Mr. MOUEIIOUSE seconded the motion pro forma.

The hon. Mr. BELL moved the adjournment of tho debate till to-morrow, in order that time might be given to lion, members to reflect on the eloquent speech which had just been addressed to them, but he should be ready to proceed if tho House wished it. After a little discussion, tho hon. Mr. BELL withdrew his motion, and tho House adjourned for half an hour, after which the debate was proceeded with. The hon. Mr. BELL: Sir, when in 1854 my lion, friend opposite (Mr. Fitzgerald) associated with himself my lion, friend the member tor Cheviot (Mr, Weld) and myself in the first attempt to bring into tho Government of this country the principle of responsibility iu the conduct of public affairs, we recognized in him those qualities which made us willingly accept Him as our chief. Wc know that to his commanding intellect, and to his comprehensive views on public affairs, wo might safely look for guidance in tho steps which we desired to adopt for the full development of our Ecprescntativc Government. We knew above all that he possessed that great gift of eloquence of which we had so signal an instance afforded us in the splendid speech which ho delivered to-night. But it has never been my fortune in tho House of Ecpresentatives to hear, even from him, a speech of such power, or one which made it so difficult for any other member to attempt to follow; and if, under ordinary circumstances, I should have felt great diffidence in following him through the various subjects ho has brought before the House, bow much more must I foci when X reflect that it is not only ns a representative of the people that I have to address tho House to-night, but that I must do so under a sense of the great responsibility imposed on mo by duties which I have only this day assumed? lam sure, then, that I may safely appeal to the indulgence of my hon. friend and of tho House if, in tho endeavour to pursue the arguments which ho has addressed to us, I shall fail to do tho justice to tho subject which it requires, but which I feel to bo so peculiar a difficulty to do, remembering the responsibility that lies upon me. Sir, I will say at once, on behalf of tho Government, that wc heard with great satisfaction the statement of my hon. friend that Ids Resolutions were not, in his opinion, antagonistic to tho scheme of policy winch has been proposed by Sir George Grey, nor different in their general direction from that which ho recognizes that the Governor intended to take. Wc had gathered as much when wo first saw the Ecsolutions on the paper as private members ; and on that more careful consideration which it was of course our duty to give to them when wo had to deal with them as Ministers, wo were confirmed in the opinion that there was nothing iu tho Resolutions which ho proposes for adoption lids evening which Ministers (concurring as they do with tho Governor in His Excellency’s scheme of Native policy) might not accept us an indication of tho general policy which ought to bo pursued towards the Natives. I shall presently proceed, in noticing the various points which my hon. friend has brought before us, to show, I hope to the satisfaction of the House, that the direction whicli lie proposes the policy of the country shall take, is really identical with that which Sir George Grey desires to lake himself; and I also hope I shall bo able lo meet, to bis satisfaction, some of the objections which lie appears to have raised to portions of tho proposals made by the Governor. I feel it will be more satisfactory to the House that, instead of attempting to

lay down to-night any specific definition of the views which I myself entertain -on the great subject which he has brought before us, 1 should take the various illustrations which he has given of hb meaning, and discuss them with him in order to show that he is himself pursuing the same idea which has bccn in the minds of all those who have given their attention, since tho introduction of representative institutions, to the question of the improvement of the Natives. I must begin by expressing my perfect concurrence in the protest which he has advanced against the doctrine that only persons acquainted with tho Native language and Native customs are capable ot formiog a true opinion as to the policy that ought to be pursued towards the Native people. Nothing has so utterly confused the policy of the Government in the last twenty years, as that fatal error of supposing that there was anything in the condition of the Native people, anything in the rolationslsubsisting between them and tho Europeans, which would necessitate or make successful a system proceeding upon the assumption of separate and conflicting interests between the two races. I cordially concur in that principle involved in the first resolution before us, that it is our bounden duty, and ought to bo our highest aim, to look to the ultimate fusion of the two peoples under tho same law, and their union under tho bond of a common interest; and if wc accept that as a cardinal doctrine, we shall see that the attempts made in past years to maintain a double government for the two races, and to make the government of one totally distinct from that of the other, really contained within themselves the seeds of certain failure from the commencement; and that much of the misery and most of the difficulties which have occurred during the last twenty years may bo traced to tho policy of administering the government of the Natives under principles, by a department, and with hands, different from those which governed the administration of European affairs. I remember that when, in a discussion which took place before the Waikato Committee, in 1860, several members who served on that committee desired to ascertain from the then heads of the Native Office what, specifically, was their plan of government for the Native race, we were met by the announcement that no plan whatever had been submitted to tho Governor; tiiat no proposal had really been made by which tho Natives should be made intelligibly to conceive what the special objects of the Government were in its separate method of. dealing with them. Wc heard it laid down that there was risk in acquainting the Natives with a new system, and we found that there remained, after twenty years of government, the same error at tho bottom of the conduct of Native affairs with which the Government had started (viz., the belief that there was some mystery in Native administration which could only be solved at some indefinite period by those who had practical acquaintance with the language and customs of tho Maori people. But many ot us, who had for years past been devoting some attention to the subject, remained, nevertheless, of the conviction, which had long forced itself upon us, that the same principles which were applicable to the government of the European people must be applicable also to the government of the Natives, and that the same rules of justice and right upon which wc professed to base our own ins’itutions might, if they could only be made clear to the Native mind, bo safely adopted as the basis for any legislation or institutions for them, without reference to those special considerations which it had been the business and character of many to hold up as antagonistic to the adoption of the same laws and institutions for both races. Wo felt that the King movement, which had been going on for years among tho Natives, was, in its origin, the expression of their protest against the endeavour to rule them upon principles different from those which we adopted for ourselves—that this movement had first sprung from the feeling that, whereas we were in the full possession of a system of representative government, and had all the benefits of law and order among ourselves, they, the Natives, were excluded from tho European Government, without having anything offered to them for their own. On the other hand, we drew a distinction between that particular phase of the Native mind which we called the desire for law and order, and tho ultimate development of tho King movement into its more dangerous phase. Wc drew this distinction, that, whereas the desire of the Natives to establish among themselves a government for themselves (since they were excluded from the European system) had first led them to the effort at establishing a separate nationality, the united effort of that agitation itself, and of the evils of raisgovernraent under which they had been suffering, had in the end given to tiiat original desire a new direction, and had made it the most difficult problem which had been presented to tho Government to deal with; and we arrived at this conclusion, that, whatever might have been the origin of the King movement, whatever might have been its ultimate development, we had reached that stage when it was necessary and inevitable that the political treatment of both phases should be tho same; and I believe wc unanimously agreed to this as the true result, that there was no safety for the two races,—no means whatever of preserving the Native people itself, except the union of both races under similar institutions and under the same law. So far, therefore, as regards the principle laid down in the first resolution, I believe that all tho«e who have given serious reflection to Native affairs will cordially accept it as the ultimate end and aim of any Government that can possibly exist in this country. My hon. friend, in endeavouring to trace the attitude taken by the Native people, referred (in terms with which I quite agreed) to the amount of diplomatic capacity manifested by them iu the various discussions that have taken place between the Government and themselves, and he gave ns one or two illustrations of it; but I rather expected he would have given that most remarkable illustration which is to be found in the letter from William Thompson to the Government, in answer to the declaration of Governor Gore Browne to the Waikato tribes last year. I must be allowed to say here that I believe one of the greatest errors we have ever committed has been, that, while we recognised the intellectual capacity and development of the Natives, wo refused to believe that they really meant what they said when they told us unpleasant things. When they told us things that were agreeable to us, wo praised them as being a people that could understand and agree with any proposals made to them for their benefit; but when they told us they were determined to establish a separate nationality and to reject our rule, wo refused to believe them, and tried to delude ourselves into the idea that they were not serious in the objects they professed. Now, that letter to which I referred was as signal an instance of the capacity of the Natives concerned to entertain the idea of independence, as it was of their determination not to come into that form of government to which wo required them to submit. If, in former years, we had been disposed to place that faith in the sincerity ot the Natives which recent events have compelled us at bast to place, wc should earlier have been able to stop, or at least to give a safe direction to, the movement in the Native mind which is at the bottom of all our present diffieuliies. We should have been able, had wc thoroughly believed what the Native mind was, to do the very thing which my hon. friend has pressed on us so eloquently to-night, we should have succeeded in persuading them that their best interest lay in a complete fusion with ourselves into one people, and in the recognition of the supremo authority of odr law and of tho Queen, But wo lost the opportunity which was given to us. We threw away a great chance that was once in our hands; and we find ourselves now, after so many years, iu the position which has been so truly described by my hon. friend, —that large numbers of the Natives still have a rooted distrust of our intentions. That there are great sections of the Natives, — many thousands of them indeed, —who are still loyally attached to the British Crown, and do look forward with anxious hope to anything that may give them the moans of complete union with ourselves, there can bo no doubt; but on the other hand wo must not conceal from ourselves that there does exist a powerful portion of the Native people, who, even at the present moment, hang back and refuse to trust us that in tho proposals we make to them we are actuated by a desire for their benefit and not ours. Whenever we shall bo able to persuade them that our interests are alike, and that in whatever tho Government proposes for them wo look to their good as our own greatest advantage, tho whole difficulty of the Native question will, in my opinion, be solved; when once we have succeeded, if we do succeed, in restoring that confidence in our justice and fair play with whicli they met tho first Governor twenty-two years ago, wc shall find that Native policy will be an" easy‘task to carry out, and wc shall bo relieved from those anxieties and troubles which now weigh so heavily on every one who considers tho present state of the country. But that is tho difficulty; and I am free to confess that I for one agree with ray lion, friend in the belief tiiat an open declaration on the part of this House of our earnest desire to be thoroughly united with them, may prove one means of winning back tho confidence they onco hold in us, and that it is therefore a high duty not to neglect this means of accomplishing our object. Sir, my lion, friend, in referring to tiiat most able and interesting report of Mr. Gorst, which has rivotted the attention of all hon. members, referred to it as taking tho lowest view of the Native character; but I can conceive that no higher tribute could have been paid to tho capacity of the Natives, no better estimate given of tho character of their principal men, than is to lie found in the extract which ho read himself, respecting the proceedings of the Council at Ngamawahin; for there wc sec that in their attempt to institute for themselves a separate government tho Waikato natives show themselves able to treat subjects with such temper and moderation as to lead Mr. Gorst to the

opinion that the Government cannot adopt a safer plan than to consult with them on the: measures tna should be adopted for their welfare.. Sir, it ui truei (as was stated by: rnv hon. friend )< that from Uio first time we set oar feet ou:these shoves the doona of the Native race *was in the hands of the colonists. This was foreseen hr those who first framed the plan of colonizing these islands; and I remember that more than twenty-three yearsago the idea which most weighed upon the minds of the early founders of the enterprise of colonizing New Zealand was this, that the fate ot the Natives depended entirely on ,the moderatio^with wKlch the colonists filioultl dCfl.l "With tuOITI. J.DCVC never has been to my recollection any better, move philosophical, or more generous sentiments expressed by any one in connection with the Native race, than those expressed by the early founders of British colonization. They desired that the Native lands should be interspersed among the European lands and should, by the growth of population, become an estate of infinitely greater value to the Natives themselves than all the territory which they possessed before. But that was not the principle adopted by the Government, The Government began by admitting m the Natives a title different from that which had been, admitted to exist in other savage races,- and the early disputes and conflicts arising out of this wore the fruitful source of many of our present difficulties. If the Treaty of Waitangi had been pursued to its legitimate conclusion we ought, and the Imperial Government ought, at once to have recognized, not merely the right of the Natives to their lands as the Treaty recognises it to them, hut we ought to have divested ourselves of the idea that the colonists had a reversionary interest in those lands The Natives have never to this day fully believed in the admission by the British Gove-n----ment of their territorial rights. They think we hare one chief object in all our dealings with them, and that is to get hold of their land. If we could lead them to believe that we, the settlers of this country, are prepared to treat with them as real owners of their estate, and to let them deal with it as they pleased, and not as we pleased, we shall have taken a great stop to removing mistrust, and shall have lai l a new foundation for the restoration of peace and quiet. Our Native land policy has been at the bottom of many of the evils which has pursued both races; and I was glad to find that my hon. friend referred to the history of the early purchases of land in this country and the harmony existing between the Natives and Europeans at that time, for the purpose of shpwing that there was no difficulty whatever in dealing with the Native title, and that if we had recognized the absolute right of the Natives to deal with their own land as they pleased, we might have found mireelves now in a totally different position. The Natives in their dealings with Europeans for land have given an example of fairness and justice which no one could have expected. lam not aware, in the history of the dealings between the early settlers and the Natives, of any instances except at Turanga, in which repudiation has taken place of contracts the latter had fairly made; and I am persuaded that as then, so now, we might look with confidence to the course the Natives then pursued for their justly dealing with us in any territorial policy which we may adopt towards them. I am obliged however to differ with my hon. friend, when he passed from his illustrations of our past land policy and argued that the legislation of 1858 had proceeded upon a repetition of these principles of disunion between the two races, which he maintained had been started in the early government of the colony. At any rate if (which I am not prepared to admit) that has been theresnltofthepolicyoflßsß.it was not its object; and I will presently ask my hon. friend to listen to words which will show to him that the intention of the Assembly in that legislation was really identical with the views he has himself expressed to-night. When the general principles of Native policy were considered by this House in 1858, the attention of the House was called to the two alternatives upon which Native policy might have been based, and I will show that the Legislature looked to the same end of ultimate fusion which my lion, friend states to be his own end. Let me ask his attention to these words:— 3. The policy of the British Government in relation to the aborigines of these Island*, might, on the first settlement of the country, have assumed either of two shapes. It might have addressed itself to the maintenance of the Natives as a separate race under distinct institutions and a Government wholly or in great measure independent of the ordinary Colonial Government; or. on the other hand, it might have been directed to promote the eventual absorption of the Maories into the European population. 4. Under the former Policy it might naturally have been sought rather to maintain than to obliterate such Native customs as were not repugnant to humanity ; and it would have been essential to set up, and rigidly to guard, a territorial division between the races. The neglect of this latter precaution has forever rendered such a police impossible in New Zealand. All the principal maritime ports of the colony are in the hands of the settlers, who, year by year, extending themselves towards the interior from twenty different centres, come in contact with the Natives at fresh points; so that there no longer remains any other alternative than the extinction of the Maori race, or its union, under one Government, with the Eutopcan settlers. However difficult, therefore, the latter enterprise, the mode in which the country has been colonized leaves no choice but to attempt it.

5. There are some who, considering what a chasm intervenes between civilization and barbarism, and how impassable the boundaries of race have generally proved, are of opinion that the fusion of the two peoples is a moral and natural impossibility. These persons refer to the statistics of population, which, according to the most accurate estimates hitherto made, show a decrease in the numbers of the Natives at the rate of about twenty per cent, in every period of fourteen years. They point to the relative paucity of Maori females, and to the abnormal mortality of the race, especially amongst the children, as facts which make certain its extiuction within a short period. Such considerations induce to the abandonment of the work of civilization as hopeless, and favour the aduption of a merely temporising policy. The race, it is said, is irredeemably savage. It is also moribund. All that is wise, or safe, to attempt, is to pacify and amuse them until they die out,—until the inscrutable physical law at work amongst them shall relieve the country from the incubusof a barbarous population ; or at least, shall render it practicable to reduce them to the condition, for which nature has intended them, of hewers of wood and drawers of water. An exclusive reliance on the personal influence with the Natives of particular individuals and mi the effect of gifts and flattery upon the more powerfulor more turbulent chiefs would be natural feeling of such a policy; which, by its demoralizing influence, would realize the expectations of its advocates, and render the annihilation of the Maori race both certain and speedy.

fj. To the present advisers of the Crown in New Zealand such a policy appears false, cowardly, and immoral. In common with the whole intelligence of the community whose opinions they represent, they believe it to be at once the interest and the duty of the colonists to preserve and civilize the Native people. Though not blind to the indications of physical decay which the race exhibits, nor to Ihe great difficulties in the way of a policy of fusion, they do not permit themselves to despair. And they believe that the true course—a course which, how. ever small the prospect of success, the British Government would still in honour and conscience be bound to pursue—is to take all possible measures fur bringing the aborigines as speedily as may be under British Institutions.

—These were the wise words in which Mr. C. W. Richmond called the attention of the Legislature and of the Imperial Government to the objects he had in view in the legislation of 1858 : and I wish my hon. friend would endeavour with mo to follow out Mr. Richmond’s idea, because it is of the highest importance that the House should be clear upon the question raised, whether the plan proposed by the Governor for the amelioration of the Native race (which is admittedly founded on the legislation of 1858) ia really proceeding on a basis which tends to the disunion of the races, or one which tends, as was desired, to the unioh of both under one law. [Mr. Fitzgerald said ho only objected io the legislation of 1858 in the one single particular of the distinction of laws and government being made according to the ownership of the soil,] But 1 understood my hon. friend, in referring to that legislation, to instance as a cause of the disunion produced by that legislation, that it proceeded to give different laws for districts where the territory was still in the hands of the Natives, and for districts where the land had been ceded to the crown. Now it must be remembered that the principle of these laws was this:—to accustom the Natives to look to this Legislature for all powers for their own better government; and if wo turn to the Native Districts Regulation Act and the Native Circuit Courts Act, it will bo seen that the great endeavour of those laws is to assimilate the institutions of the government of the Natives to tiiosc enjoyed under our English law. My hon. friend must be aware that it was then, and is now, impossible (at least that is my opinion) to put into force in Native districts exactly the same laws as are now in operation among the European communities—[Mr. Fitzgerald: Not a bit.]— Well, I say that the circumstances of the two races are such that youcauuot at the present time induce the Natives to bring themselves within the pale of your English law, and to relievo yourselves from the duty of enabling them to act upon their own customs. Nor do I sec why wo should lay down the doctrine, that because we have a particular law lor ourselves, we should therefore impose the whole of that law upon the Native people. Different laws exist in different parts of the United Kingdom itself; the law of Scotland is different from the law of England; there is special legislation in every session of Parliament, adapted to different phases of society, and different associations and tra ditions. It would be as contrary to true doctrine, and to the spirit in which the legislation of the Imperial Parliament takes place every session, to demand that the same law should run over the whole of the British islands, as to demand here that the whole Native population should immediately submit to the whole of the, laws wo have for ourselves, I don’t see the slightest antagonism in a rule that should at once provide special laws suited to the Native people, and different laws suited for ourselves. The great thing we have to do is, in the first place, to start from the

same foundation of authority, and in the ‘ see that the direction in which any separate or if? legislation takes place shall be the same in thTj* run as the direction which we want to take onm! 86 When, therefore, you proposed in the Native Dish?* Act and Native Circuit Courts Act to cive tl l* Natives the power of making regulations for their guidance in matters where custom with the °*® equivalent to what law is to us, yon were in L J!* 3 I maintain, perpetuating any disunion of the diverging from the great end of ultimate unioS* the same law. You were leading them up to the predation of those fundamental principles upon wkfa our society rests, —yon were endeavouring Iq Bnrhi, them to the rules on which our system has Has grown up. I say, and I deny necessity for applying to a people just oroenred barbarism, precisely the same course of action society which has already reached a high civilization. I deny that necessity, that in urging the reasonableness of distinct provS* for distinct races and different phases of society ' are by that course inducing the race for which make that distinct provision to disunite itself from v I hope my hon. friend will allow me to dwell on th because (so far as my knowledge of the concerned), I believe that if you say to them now ~ once for instance, that they shall submit their foS tenure to all the complications which affect real Z? perty amongst ourselves, we should be throwing JfZ them an element of discord, and discourage them ’ that particular from any attempt to come under ml I law. We must deal with circumstances as they aT J we must see that whereas our tenure has grown m! into a complicated system which laymen don’t unto stand, and for which a liberal profession has to specially educated, the Native tenure mav be » simple and rest upon such elementary rules as that the Natives shall be able themselves to lay down without difficulty a plan of dealing with their 1™? Of two things it appears to me we mast do one- voti mast either impose upon the Natives your laws of red property, or you mast admit that their tenure is «o different from yours that yon cannot bring the reco*. nition of it at this moment into the same courts wS administer your own real property law. Take, for instance, the Supreme Court. I remember in a cu* before the Chief Justice at Auckland when an am! ment was laid before the Court in favour of the record nition of a particular title set up by a European imfe purchase from the Natives, the Chief Justice, in delivering judgment, made use of one expression’ which struck mo as at once forcible and picturesque He said, “ what you call on the Supreme Court to do it to give effect to the naturalization laws of the Parawiu® tribe, which the Supreme Court will not nndprtqkp lay down.” You cannot, without a course of education, immediately impress upon the Natives your m. tem of administering the law; and, unless you ate prepared to adopt some such principle as was adopted in 1858, viz., that of inducing them to start for themselves an elementary kind of legislation, you are driren to the alternative either of demanding their submission to a law which they don’t understand, or of constituting separate courts for them, distinct and separate from those which administer the ordinary law of the country. The elementary legislation yon enabled the Governor to put in force with their assent, is still Assembly law; the foundation of authority is the same; and it matters nothing whether you erects separate tribunal under a separate law, or give to the Natives the right to deal with their lands for themselves according to their own customs. If you erect« separate tribunal distinct from the tribunals which administer English law, yon must still commence hr recognizing as part of your policy the customs of the Natives, Suppose you set up a land tribunal, with complete form of procedure, and thoroughly organized system; yon must take first, as a basis on which to erect your court, Maori ideas and customs. What does it matter, then, whether you do that it. an elaborate form, or whether you give the Natives the means of ascertaining and defining their title for themselves? lam not saying now which is the best form; but I deny that, if yon give the Natives (as in 1858) the means of having separate regulations distinct from your law, you are doing more to foster disunion than by making (as my hon. friend now asks) an elaborate organic law, which most commence by recognizing and providing for their own customs. You, equally in both cases, found your method of proceeding upon General Assembly law, and upon the Natives acceptance of that; their exchange, in fact, of the law of the strong arm for legislation resting on the authority of the superior race. On that exchange rests, not the disunion of races, but, on the contrary, all that is included in the hope of their ultimate fusion. What we did, in fact, when we came to this country was this —we destroyed the right of the strong arm, the law under which the chiefs ruled their tribes, and we gave them nothing in its stead; and are we to wonder that, in the course of the twenty years which have elapsed since then, the Natives should have felt that, while we were professing all kinds of unity and amity, we were depriving them of their old system, and giving them no education whatever towards anything new? Now, it is marvellous that so much controversy should have taken place upon a question so elementary and so simple in itself as the Native tenure. I shall follow tiie example of my hon. friend in retraining from going into those questions of past controversy. lam aware it is true what he says, thaj* the Maori doctors have constantly differed on this question, and that what one man holds another will contradict: but there does exist one statement about Native tenure which has never been contradicted by any body, which shows die simplicity of its original foundation, and gives ns the best assurance that, whatever policy may be pursued in dealing with the subject, there does not exist in the tenure itself anything that should frighten us in die attempt to deal with it. The statement I refer to is one that was made by the Bishop of New Zealand; it is so clear, and shows the simplicity of the thing so thoroughly, that I shall be excused by the House if I just read it. [Here the hon. member read the extract] Sir, this is really' the foundation on which native tide rests. It is the same foundation as is found among many other savage people; but it is different from dial which exists among other Polynesian races; distinct for instance from that which exists in the Sandwich Islands. Here we have as a rule a tribal tenure, resting on the simple rules stated by ihe Bishop; whereas in the tribes of the Sandwich Islands ih« tenure is aristocratic and feudal. [Mr. Fitzceraso: Since when?] lam not aware of any account which traces the present condition of Hawarian tenure to anything different from that which now exists, am existed when the Sandwich Islands were first occupied. What I say is this; you have got a simple tenure existing; one which the natives have no difficulty m dealing with themselves, and if you enable them to lay down their own rules for determining their tide, inheritance, and right of occupation, you do a better thing for them than if you attempt to lay down yourselves any rules and restrictions for them. Wnaf» however, is required to be done, and what I entirely concur with my hon. friend should be done at once, that you should give to the natives the opportunity ® having any disputes, either as between themselves « as between them and the Government, determined some equitable tribunal, or by a simple mode of am* tration, to be adopted among themselves. The Governor the other day made this proposal to the Kmj»» people,—-that they should come down to AuckuM in October next, and decide by arbitration the disp® which has been for upwards of 35 years a source violent enmity, and which no effort of the Governme has been able to see the natives fairly out of; and natives, though they had at last come to open fightmgi and shed blood over it, immediately accepted the pro* posal, and willingly agreed to settle their loug-standms feud by arbitrators to be appointed by themself^ There is no essential difference between that coo*and that of the legislation of 1858, which pr®* cally gave the Natives the right of proposing lations for determining among themselves such <l ues . What you certainly want to do is to pursue the posi assumed by the legislation of 1858, —that you » jurisdiction in the matter; and I repeat that, wne ‘ you leave the currying out of regulations to the na themselves, or profess to set upa tribunal,—! don that it matters which you provide,—you Start wIUI same foundation of authority, gradually get the na to believe that their best security lies in looking General Assembly as the final authority on which J shall rest. Sir, I don’t think the proposals whichiV Governor has made in his native scheme nre the “ constitutional dolls” which ray hon. trim ferred to. I don’t think that, in proposing natives the scheme which His Excellency has t > is offering them mere toys which they raay e pleasure, and with which their only business wi amuse themselves. Quito the contrary. . , not omit in your consideration of the qaei i fact, that the mind of the natives has been or . period of time so directed to every part of the country, that they themst - into operation this system of runangas, to vv hon. friend seems to object. But it must no posed that in the Governor’s proposal “6 - S that direct encouragement to the further dcvelopmen of the system of village runangas which my no friend appears to think he has done. On . eltJ| if hon. members will read the papers laid they will find that there were two pnjwPff “ (his minds of the Governor and the late Ministry , , subject. The Governor in his original pla . the district runanga as the principal by any legislation for the natives should oc effect. On the other hand, Mr. Fenton and others, who had paid great attention to the finest . tutions for the natives, were of opinion tna upon the natives an organization different

'Lnot so ready a method of weaning SW 1 Tgovernment, as that of proceeding institution in action amongst c ! cDl fhch^respective villages. We must £se lves there exists no bond of union whatever Member tW* we mus t remember that the name Jffi Do the db--s°“t “W f°' hmi g ht or not t ho whole of one. For Linde a d o2 ®” Ugapuhi, where there is a district instance, “ “L t, split up into innumerable hapus, lag* chief for thc whole - aml 0,1 I ,bic& ° vva E operate in no way by tho possession of I ,-hich yo» *" particular person. Take, for instance, *utbor‘ t . v . 1 . n nf Kirapnhi which live in tho districts lose division 3 jj a y 0 f islands; constitute them of fl otian ?2ict runanga, ami you may find, or rather many that you might find, that tho it was held f betvveen those two great subjealousics e s “ ° tr ibo would be such, that great divisions ot “ be f oun( l in inducing them to (jitficulty w°“ ommo n legislation for general obsnite hi aD - v . at is particularly the case in jecta ■ ■ of the king movement—in tho Waiibo great cent r 6 bctween moro than a hundred g reaC Waikato tribe, and some s nbiii v i 3 ‘ onS ° are split up into smaller sections; ag“ t)io jijghtcst doubt whatever, that toil 1S ibcSt subdivisions, and sections, spring though these an d are united by tho same from the same not tbo idea of subgives t0 an y central authority or any ©ittinff tn “ ,J v, ( i| vest them of their power to act pjla that sh n The Ngatiawa tribe.] ijjflpendent .V. t Tjb(Jro is ono sect i o n at the Bay T&jbfl another section at Taranaki, and another at of Sound. You cannot have any district Queen w* B * s0 represent an entire tribe, as that ransegavw 0 f 1V general assent of you ® a - v M JL 0 ( that tribe to the authority of that all the m° m ( #t j cftSt has been ono theory, as the p f a fhflorr also existed, that you may so unite tho other ' M of tribes, or groups of tribes under ono various po induce them to agree to association of legislation. These two theories at forthoP „nr ! moment have not reached a point at which to P re ®® in iv be said, or a decided opinion entertained, 1 L best to adopt; and hon. members will •WfioL stu( 3y the papers laid before tho House that in the first steps taken has carefully *"2TSSLS from a positive determination to Hi* t he one theory or the other: ho has rather to tho Native people themselves to find ij e attempt to work out his scheme, which is firm in which they would most readily recognize ,„hpn any attempt is made to subordinate the “ffil willofeich Native to the same kind of it You must remember that, though among tho Sjrt people Chieftainship is still regarded with retwenca because the chieftains represent the highest M-in fact, what my hon. friend calls tho “ Maori “ bilitv” and because chieftainship is connected with I ancient' associations and traditions on which tho history of their occupation of this country rests—it Lid be a fatal mistake to suppose that that chief- ■ hip is recognized by them now as clothed with the SUM authority 0 over the individual will of the lower kop'c that it had before the establishment of British sovereignty. You have now got in this King movement anew element to deal with altogether, a state of relations between chiefs and people totally different from what you found in 1840; and you don’t yet know shat plan will be ultimately the best for preventing the evils that have flown from the destruction of the old authority of the chiefs without tho substitution of oar authority in its stead. But, though I admit a radical change has taken place in the last twenty years in the relations between the tribe and the chief, my hon. friend is mistaken if he supposes that any radical change has taken place in the Native tenure itself. It is true that a state of things comparatively unknown before has been engralfed on the old tenure, first by sales made to Europeans, and secondly by reason of the confused system adopted by the Crown in the acquisition of territory ; so that the Natives have become puzzled as to which is really recognized by the Government as the foundation of their title; but they have not in the least degree altered to this day, so far as I know, tho simplicity on which their occupation of the country rested; and at meetiugs of the Maoris you will often hear a distinct language held by them in dealing with their own questions as to the rights of particular tribes, sections or chiefs, from the language they will use in dealing with those rights when it is a question of treaty of cession to the Crown. [Mr. Fitzgerald: Whose fault is it?] Why, of course it is ours. We have by our system of land policy, which I agree with him, was, notwithstanding the honesty and ability with which it has ken carried out, wrong from the commencement. We have so dealt with Native tenure that we have first puzzled the Natives and then succeeded in completely puzzling ourselves. We have laid down the doctrine that we may deal with chiefs, or with tribes, or again with only individuals; and we have at list so entangled the treaties we have made for the acquisition of land, that it is difficult to say in any district precisely on what principle cession of territory has been made. I am not saying that was avoidable, because , I should be very sorry to imply any censure upon the skilful officers who have been engaged in those transactions. It would require too dose an examination of each transaction to enable censure to be fairly given, and censure' has often been made without any examination at all. But there is one thing which wo certainly may censure, without fear of doing injustice to any one, and that is the want of steady system in treating with the Native title generally. We have, I say, entangled the Native title for ourselves and are now reaping tho fruits. But, sir, m 7 hon. friend made one statement which I think it would be right for me to refer to, and that is that thc und league was the natural result of our system of buying land. Now, the land league, I believe, is noihmg.more than that expression of the intention of ™ Natives engaged in it to oppose at the present time a harrier to the extension of British colonization, which ■night have sprung up just as well under any other system that might have been administered by us, as under the system we have pursued. The Natives naturally began to see, as it was long ago foreseen they would one day see, that their territory'was becoming smaller Mil smaller, that wc were gradually advancing upon them, successively taking possession of all the seaports *na pnncipal points from which the occupation of tho country could advantageously take place; that they getting hemmed in; audit is a perfectly natural A-elmg, and I for one don’t say that it is a blameablo I!m’ u an ‘ Qtcnse desire should have sprang up wig them to retain for themselves what was left of mr original patrimony. I don’t thick wo are right w assuming that if we change thc system of land pur•ase we shall change that sentiment, which is really • . e tto m of the land league. I don’t think there r• 1™ mnndatioa for tho belief expressed by my hon. y ! . l f wa would only recognize to its full extent ,„, atl^ e to land they would bo ready to come ulna Ti ras millions of acres. At tho same time, ,!» mi t the difficulties arising from the desire of * wives to retain the principal part of their remainonj ™*r. we must remember that thc land league wnntr UtS IV 13 extent in some portions of the blent f’i , . icre aru still (as there always have their t/'* 3 anx ‘ ous for the purchase and occupation of Europeans. Only this morning iut™, w , as received of offers of a considerable cxZ,m n u d ! n the Province of Auckland. With Present ° the ' an d kagners vo cannot hope at the bted tn mo ! rleDt any land policy that may ho instiwhift, , II1(luce them to surrender the sentiment upon actwisck just now; and I think wc shall mate inf’ am Wlt b the best regard to our own ultitorcein„,;rcsts ’ We shall best give a chance for their I? the institutions of Government prothe present G ? crnor if wc frankly tell them that for At 1 ' ve «on’t mean to press them for acquisition, it j 3 !’ ine > that is a question on which tinct L. 1 y ‘“Possible for me to make any disthc r,::™ 1 on tlle part of tho Government at lutionj of t J f 5, Wo have all seen how the Hcsobnrren of , ousc in Pie same direction have been oceusio-,rij - . We have recognised on previous Natives to e ,, ™Wlity of refraining from pressing te ®ptation t tfle ' r iand; but wo cannot resist thc instanced i n n n t ' ie °eeasion arises, as was lately had becnr t lC Casc the Coromnndol district, where \ u se the In lUI at)S °i llt o necessity for thc Government die land itself' 031 ' P° 3s ible endeavour to acquire either sta ndinw the t° r ie r ’n r ht to mine gold there, notvvithatonsid P n,Li ' ° wn opposition for a certain period of great credit 6 9e L ct ‘ on °f the people. And it reflects they fo ttC( j , I ° l ' t ' lc Natives of Coromandel that, when p ‘ Wo Pcan n* • rt^Cr re f' lsn l on their part to permit between the t*" I*’ 1 *’ °P erat i° ns might lead to difficulties opposition * Q . they voluntarily gave up their may 'teat ,nv ' ltC( l that occupation which wo all friend in t b g to k’teat results before long. My hon. 0n of a mr itself,yet if „ U | ° which, though perfectly right in 1 ? r isscrvaiinn l *ii s House without qualification believe mvs,n? * eac b us i QtO considerable difficulty. Perfectly riil ® t . l,at ns an abstract proposition it is which do tll3 House should “assent to no laws Objects of wk Bnisc lhe right of all Her Majesty’s ,! ‘hi-ro <m> ? In(;tl . t eivil and political rn^Ptincinlnt^ 68 ‘ n which the practical pursuit of • K for insn, 0 lts e<tr cmo limits would lead to trouble. l a ries. r M , th o q ues tion of tho constitution of lf*?®Pti3 hoJr* ZQEEALD: Hear, hear.] Now tho yotl 1 ® leaa to unite tho two races ultimately P bring mutual confidence into their

STn\Xh 0 S rtlS f n ° th ? r; andifail -' r Proposal be raiL of raco becomes greatly 011 would frustrate your own object by giving my ta Sd“ r “?" ,iOU 'V he ,Crms ta" "«™y xt *• ■ ’ Inend . Suppose the property or life of « should he’trlpdh 10 ' 1 ’ U - WoLl,d be P erf ectly right that he W ur)ri but 1 do "’‘ thi " k W 1 iet ofZr ° Slisl,,cst ho ' >o of^“ &*"wj Si “jl? [Mrantagonisn^of 1, 1 f lll Saying that woultf'StTtha Jo,SS Z TmIZTt >y propo T g ;t > and takc ‘he best course to frustrate the very object you have in view Hitherto you have exc l u de d the Maories from serving m is onc of the great of a nrir Ud b ? "V*** in tho a PPlioSn . ~ pnnoiplo m itself most right and —he 1 re f r ‘\ 1:0 tho fourth ** nay be observed that tho principle. of an equality of civil and political privileges is even now respected; you have at this present moment Native magistrates administering your law with ability and rt B ,’ : A r 80r8 fiUting with English magistrates a id helping to tiy causes of difference where Maories aro concerned. But if you were to say to tho EuronnTn pop ' datll ? at b at cases where only Europeans were concerned shall be tried by Maori assessors you would again be running tho risk of frustrating your object bv exciting the antagonism of race. For all practical objects of government, and particularly in so complicated a state of relations as that now existing between the two races the thing of all others to bo guarded against is that kind of legislation that shall arouse on the part of either race that feeling of distrust and jealousy of tho other which would make them unwilling to come under its operation. You must rest whatever success you hope to gain bv tho declaration ot tins principle, upon preventing the growth of these feelings. It you excite them you adjourn indefinitely the carrying out ot tho very object of which you proloss to desire the immediate introduction. Sir, on tho whole I say that the Government having given the best consideration which they can to these resolutions proposed by my hon. friend, accept them as leading to the same purpose and end which in their belief should govern any Native policy whatever in this country, ihey do earnestly desire that whatever legislation takes place in the General Assembly shall be with the new, not of tho disunion, bnt of the ultimate fusion of the two peoples under the same law; they earnestly desire that there shall be no legislation which gives to the European race any political privileges or civil rights which are denied to the Maories; they hope the time will come, and that soon, when men such as Aperahama Taonui, Waata Kukutai, and chiefs of that stamp, will be fitted to take part in our legislation as they are now fitted to take, and do take part in the administration of our law. Beading the resolution as a whole, they express the mind ot tho Government itself. But. the position of Ministers must not be misunderstood. As representatives of the people hero we are freely to express our opinions on the questions that come before us; as Ministers we are to advise the Governor;—[Mr. Fox : On Native affairs?]— Yes, m all questions of Native policy we arc to give the best advice in our power to the Governor; but I repeat that our position in this House must not he mistaken, and that the assent wc give to- the general principles of these Resolutions must not be taken to extend further than the expression of our own views. The doctrine we have laid before the House in the resolution to be proposed bv the Colonial Secretary to-morrow is this—that while the Ministers aro to take the administration of Native affairs, and to advise the Governor upon questions of Native policy, tfie ultimate decision as to tfio course to bo taken must rest with him; and it will bo understood, therefore, by my hon. friend that, while we will assent to tho address that he proposes, praying “ that His Excellency will be pleased to cause sue i steps to fie taken as he may be advised will bring the policy above indicated into operation with the least practicable delay,” it will rest with tho Governor himself to determine nt what time and in what manner the proposals now made shall be brought into practical effect. Sir, 1 have felt, as the House has no doubt seen, that coming into office to-day, and having of course a responsibility that docs not lie on a private member, I have been prevented from dealing with the question in the decided way which it might seem to require; but, unless I have quite failed to make my meaning clear, the House will be satisfied that the present ministers recognise the same duty as my hon. friend has preached, namely, to take the present opportunity of doing everything in our power to fulfil that solemn trust which is ours of saving, if possible, the native people form the destruction impending over them. The information which reaches the Government shows that the cultivation of land has seriously declined among them, and that the condition of the people as regards food, clothing, education and industrial pursuits is much worse than it was two or three years ago. Wc see looming before us tho results of a state of tho Native mind which is the source of great uneasiness to themselves and serious risk to every one. But wc do earnestly hope nevertheless, that if it shall please God to avert trom this colony the miseries of war, wo may yet bo able, under the guidance of Sir George Grey, and by faithful effort and the labour of love on our part, to lay tho foundations of that new relation between the two races which shall end in their cordial union with ourselves under one law, and bind ihern and us by a common interest and mutual confidence, in which all hatred of race, the remembrance of our own raisgovernment, and the fierce passions roused in tho late war, may be for ever buried. Mr. MOOR.HOUSE said, sir, as seconder of these resolutions, I feel a remarkable interest in the adoption of them by tho House. I believe that at no former period of our existence as a legislature, since the establishment of our Constitution, have we had the profession of good will towards the Maoris laid downier their information in such unmistakoable terms. Whatever course the Government may take after these resolutions arc passed—assuming that they will pass—whatever course this House will take if the whole management of Native affairs is handed over to it; —at all events the resolutions cannot fail to bo extremely useful to give a clearer indication of our good will to the natives than has ever before been sent out to flic country —whether the result of rhe deliberations oi His Excellency the Governor in Council may he the employment of our large army to conquer the native, or whether we should succeed in the fusion ol the races by another process. These resolutions cannot do any harm. 1 remarked, sir, that rny hon. friend who last addressed the House (Mr. Bell) said at the opening of his speech that he was glad to have heard the mover say “that these resolutions being ulopted would not involve a material departure from the policy laid down by the Government.” Now I am bound to confess that in giving support to these resolutions, 1 do materially differ from that policy [Mr. Fitzgerald: hear, hear.] I entertain a very different opinion as to what is the actual situation of affairs, and to how those affairs should be treated. My opinion is a very different one indeed, and the process that I should advise is a very short one. My hon. friend seemed to be in difficulty as to how we should legislate in this extremity. Now I believe that in the event of these resolutions being carried, ministers accepting this indication of the opinion of the House in a proper spirit, it will then be only .necessary to enact three statutes. The first of those would be for the establishment of a court for the individualization of native titles. We have already heard from the native Ministers that there exists so little difficulty in *he way of such process that native title might be easily ascertained. All that is wanted then, is to authorise the making of a kind of Doomsdey Book in which these titles shall be recorded for ever, and by reference to which shall bo decided a man’s right to property. 1 ho second statute would be for erecing a court with a special equitable jurisdiction. No new codes ol civil and penal law for native government are required ; lor the! laws in existence are amply sufficient lor both Native and European. Let the ordinary courts administer one common law for the benefit of the whole community ; but to soften the pain that would necessarily follow the forcing <>f European laws upon the natives, I would have the Queen sitting in equity and holding her court in different parts ol the Colony , I would have the Queen represented by a special Judge, who should hear and decide m what cases the penalties and pains of English statute law should be eased in favour of individuals ot the native race. 1 ins may seem a curious process but I am perfectly that it is a very easy one indeed- Bet His Excellency SK .. E»gli .Tuilg. ill .tom >l» o*7 the greatest confidence that there would be no abuse of his power,—a lawyer and a gentleman thorough y understanding the functions of a court of equity of .hj» kind His duty would he to hear appeals from the courts below. * The ordinary magistrates com ts might inflict fines and award punishments, and bail be given till an appeal could be had to 'reeourtabove, mid if it were found that a native had erred from manifest ignorance of English law, the toot h of the law as against him might he drawn. In the third place, I look, sir, with the greatest dismay 1 P° n d c establishment of these runangas ; wh r °. thct ui d ”J s e " village, I believe they are exceedingly “ “ ; cX nS I S t is likely that the natives having had these privileges, having had the concurrence o the Go an mutls their Imvin- Parliaments ot their own, will be how they should use these privilege, . told it will ultimately have M) he swept away lor a better European system. Would it not be better at

once to tell the Maoris distinctly they should not make laws at all till they indicated n desire to legislate in the spirit of the laws made in the other legislative assemblies in the Colony; to enable them to do iso pass a third statute for the purpose of dividing that part of the Colony occupied by Natives into Provinces. [Mr. r iTZGEitAU); liear,hear.] Within those Provinces there should be Provincial Councils, and they should legislate under the same restrictions as those imposed on the other Provincial Councils. It is impossible to carry tint out until you first individualize Native title, because you cannot have an eleciive council till you ascertain who is entitled to the franchise. “ Give them manhood suffrage,” says my hon. friend (Mr. Fitzgerald), but for my own part, I would not depart from our declared intention of assimilating in every particular the government of the Natives to that of Europeans. It may appear almost indecorous in me to speak so freely here on this subject, which is one that a gentleman of the South might well he diffident in talking of, hut there does exist some sort of guarantee for the value of opinions coining from the South, arising from the circumstance that we are not so brought in contact with difficulties with the natives as to be prejudiced in our judgment as to what would he the right course to overcome these difficulties. I believe it to be positively necessary to intimate to the Natives at once, that except for purposes similar to those for which public reserves have been made in other parls]of the Colony, no land whatever should be bought from the Maoris by the Government, that the Natives should be left to deal with their own lands in tlie way they think pioper, be at liberty to sell ir at any price they choose. Further we declare that the Government trading in lands, which lias done our Government so much damage, should cease for ever, and the Government will no longer he regarded as a pedlar, but b“ looked upon in a higher character. Leave all such trading to individuals and the Government will be relieved from that loss ofdignity associated with buying and selling land at a profit. The Natives saw tho Government buying land t,t sixpence and selling it at a pound, and the Natives naturally conceived that they were more entitled to the profit themselves. 11 is impossible they would submit whh a much better grace to a fine to be imposed on the sale of their lands; that is one of those modes of raising a revenue which would relieve the Colony of a great amount of the expense we aro afraid of. The management of Native affairs, sir, would not be so costly as we imagine. The Imperial Government, 1 believe, on being relieved from tho expense of keeping a large army here, wmuld give a grant of money in aid of carrying out those plans. I have heard read to-day a despatch from the Duke of Newcastle imposing upon us conditions which appear to be rather too hard upon us, but this disinclination on the part of the home Government to part with large sums of money for Native purposes is on account of our charging them with large expenses in respect of naval and military forces. Publish these resolutions to the Natives and enact these three statutes. My hon. friends smile, but I am perfectly certain that if we take any course—if His Excellency’s Government does take, at all events, a course very much like this, they will mike a dreadful mess of these Native affairs. I hope lam not wearying the House, but, as I am going away to-morrow, I want tho Minister tor Native Affairs to understand why I support these resolutions. I hope that the Government will lose no time in publishing these resolutions to the Natives, and that they will during the session introduce three bills such as 1 have mentioned. (Oh, oh.) In those bills they might insert a clause authorising the Governor to withhold the operation of ihose statutes until he should be advised that the time had arrived for them to come into operation Thus, you would indicate clearly to the Natives what is intended ; put before them 'at one glance tlie whole system, and the ultimate end of legislation for them ; but I feel earnest in my conviction that if you encourage these village and district runangas, you will postpone the result wished for by those who support thejse resolutions for an indefinite period, and in all probability produce war*--indeed I think it is the most certain way of doing it. On the motion of Mr. FOX, tho debate was then adjourned, and the House also adjourned at half-past II o’clock, till Thursday. THURSDAY, AUGUST 7tii. The SPEAKER took the chair at Id o’clock. PETITIONS. The Hon. Mr. BELL presented Petitions from Edmund J. Halswoll and John 11. Luseombc, referring to transactions witli tho New Zealand Company. Petitions received. PAPERS. The Hon. COLONIAL SECRETARY laid on the table Despatches from the Duke of Newcastle respecting the withdrawal of ships of war from New Zealand to Sydncv. The Hon NATIVE MINISTER laid on the table 1. Despatches from His Grace the Duke of Newcastle respecting the withdrawal of ships of war from New Zealand to Sydney. 2. Despatch from His Grace the Duke of Newcastle respecting Grants of Crow a Titles for Land to Natives under certain circumstances. 3. Despatch from His Grace the Duke of Newcastle relative to effort made by Natives to compel Mr. Gorst to abandon Upper Waikato District, 4. Despatch from His Grace the Duke of Newer tic relative to differences between Europeans and Natives in tho Hawke’s Bay District, and arrangement of the same by Mr. Ward. .0. Despatch from His Grace the Duke of Newcastle relative to payment of Troops employed in making road to Waikato. REQUIREMENTS OP TUB SOUTH. Mr, DICK asked tho Colonial Secretary, Whether it is the intention of Gov.-ni.nent to propose during this Session, any alteration of existing arrangements, whereby the Southern Provinces of this Colony shall be brought into closer connexion with t ie seat of Government, and shall have more speedy and satisfactory attention paid to their requirements. The Hon. COLONIAL SECRETARY replied that the present Government had not had any time to take the matter into consideration yet. MINTSCERIaL RESPONSIBILITY. The hon. Mr. DOMETT, in accordance with the wish of tho House, postponed his resolution on IV nistorial Responsibility till to-morrow. MARINE BOARDS BILL. The hon. Mr. M ANT ELL obtained leave to introduce a Bill entitled an “ Act to establish Marine Boards for the general control and management of Ports, P’ilots. Lighthouses, and other matters relating to navigation, and to regulate Port charges and other rates.” Bill read a first time, ordered to he printed, and to ho read a second time on Tuesday next. the ADJOURNED DEBATE ON NATIVE POLICY.

Mr. Fox not pressing his right to speak, the adjourned debate was resumed by Mr. COLENSO, who said lie would take his stand as a practical man, a position which was wanting in the splendid oration of the lion, mover. He would go heartily with that lion, member if lie thought his beautiful theories could be accomplished, but he believed them utterly Utopian and impracticable. He would first proceed to comment on some of the expressions used by the hon. member last uig.it; and he thought tlie hon. member ought to feel ashamed ot his reference to the Natives as having ••grasped the mysteries of a lofty faith,” a thing which not a third of tlie persons in that room could be said to have done; which was more even than tlie students of tho University which ihc hou. member had left in tlie mother country were able to do. Then tho hon member had referred to tho constitutional lassitude of the chiefs - a quality which was not known amongst thorn till flour and sugar came in. The chiefs were the courageous, striving, and enterprising men of their tribeaT free from anything like constitutional lassitude, or they would not have been chiefs. As for their perseverance, those conversant with them knew well that the great enemy to the development of their intellectuality, if they had any, was a want of steadiness and application. But he contended that they were not an intellectual race; all their arts of canoe-making, carving, tattooing, weaving, oratory, &c., belonged to a time far gone in the night of history; but if they were an intellectual race they would have been improving from day to day. Point out, bo would ask, the Native who had invented anything; they had plenty of imagination but no invention. The destruction of the power of the great chiefs, he contended, was not owing to their adoption of the Christian faith, but to tho questions which had been improperly tacked on, and made a part and parcel of that faith—liilse views of slavery, polygamy, and divorce. A pseudo-Christianity required of them, if they would come within the Christian church, that they should cast away their wives, bastardising their children, and release their slaves. After severe inward struggles many of them did so. and tho powerful chief of yesterday, with a smiling family and a hundred followers, (he alluded particularly to tho Ngapuhi) was reduced to misery, and died. He denied that they were an extremely justice-loving people; fear only kept them from repudiation. The term “ nationality ” had been most misapplied by tho mover. The Maories did not know what it meant, for they had no word for it in their own language. They never had such an idea as a separate nationality, nor had they even now. One side of the House thought too much of this nationality bugbear, as the other part did of tlie bugbear of law and order. They were the Scylla and Charybdis of this House, and the only safe course lay between. Nationality was a thing the Natives would scout at, Lower Waikato would not listen to Upper

Waikato; and what was it that had tended to depopulate New Zealand but one tribe rising against another? There was bnt one mode of making a nationality for them, viz., by amalgamation with ourselves. He had heard much said by tho hon. moral 3r for Ellesmere against the ■ numerous, scattered, paltry little village Runangas, from which the hon. member had said no good would come. He (Mr. C.) said that from them all good was to come, and from nowhere else. Such a thing as a district Runanga was ignored by the Natives, but if tho village Runanga was carefully cultivated it would do good, and from it would ultimately co ne forth a district Runanga. As in educating the Native ho had to begin at the bottom, the A B C, so politically they must begin at the bottom, v. e. tho village Runangas. Tho hon. member had asked how they should prevent the eccentricities of these village Runangas—why, by putting careful and competent pakehas toguide them [Mr. Fitzgerald: That is not in tiic scheme.] Perhaps not, but ho did not look on the scheme as a cut and dried one, unalterable as the laws of the Modes and Persians (hear). He quite agreed with what had fallen from the hon. mover with regard to the establishment of something of tho nature of the Encumbered Estates Court for the disentanglement and individualization of the Native title; and years ago he had endeavoured to impress that the Land Purchase Commissioners should be so employed in their abundant spare time, not for the purpose of buying, but simply to form a record—a Doomsday-book. Tho hon. member had truly said that the present state of tiie Natives was one of distrust; the fact was that they had had too much coaxing. The first resolution was very good, but they had heard it times without number (hoar). What were the words translated for Captain Hobson to make use of at the Treaty of Waitangi but these, “ we are now one people;” but this promise had not been fulfilled (hear hear). As he took it, this first resolution would go to do away not only with many useful laws, but with the greater portion of the Native policy which they had before them. The second resolution lie did not like. He heard continual talk of giving these Natives civil and political privileges, but he heard nothing said as to calling on them to undertake certain duties and responsibilities. What did tho Natives care about political privileges? The resolution would bo better amended by the substitution, for the latter part of it, of a call on them to render a full and equal responsibility and obedience to all ordinary requirements of the law; that would be nearer the mark, and would be “ beginning at the bottom.” Taking it as it stood they must pari passu look out for the duties and privileges (hear, hear). The hon. member had referred to the “ abstract majesty of tho law,” and it was that which they wanted to see recognized and upheld, and they would be satisfied. Then, as to the third resolution, how could the hon. member make it appear that a recognition of the first and second resolutions would necessitate it; it might ultimately call for it, would pave the way for it, but could not necessitate it. He hoped if these resolutions were carried, the hon. member would alter these two words at least, substituting “ may ultimately call for,” for “ will necessitate.” lie could reckon up several bases to prove that tho Maories were fairly represented in the House. In his Province some ot them were actually on tho roll, and voted at elections. They had their champions in the House as was shown last night, and certainly a fair share ot money was voted to thorn. If their champions thought they were not fairly represented, let them take the constitutional means of getting them more fairly represented, by putting them in a position to be on the roll, and getting them returned. Why did not they “ begin at the bottom,” ho asked, and put some of the Natives into the Provincial Councils, and then they might reasonably point to what they had done, and ask to have them admitted here. When he heard the Superintendent of Canter bury speaking last night, ho* thought if that Ron. gentleman had only had a Native returned to his Provincial Council what amoral effect it would have; it would have done a great deal towards calming the outrageous passions and feelings of distrust which existed. While assured that this scheme sprung from the kindliest feelings in its originator, ho thought it Utopian and premature; a long scheme of education was first required. He therefore felt it his duty to oppose these resolutions, and trusted the Government would listen to him when ho called on them to oppose it also; for if these resolutions were passed and went forth printed in Maori, the Natives would only have another stumhlingblock laid before them; they would be Jed to indulge in beatcous visions that would never be fulfilled, hopes that would never bo realized; and a dreadful reaction would certainly take place, Mr. MOORHOUSE rose in explanation, Tho hon. member was under a little misapprehension as to the function of Superintendents in the Southern Provinces of New Zealand. It was not generally considered the duty of a Superintendent to procure the election of members of the Provincial Council (a laugh). Mr. CARLETON, after paying tribute to the eloquent speech with which his hon. friend had introduced tlie resolutions before the House, proceeded to observe upon the remarkable variation which had boon made in the fifth, since the first giving notice of motion. As the resolution originally stood, the policy indicated was to be brought into operation “ with the least practicable delay.” Now it was “ with the least possible delay.” It was certain that the House would not agree to the word “ possible,” while “ practicable” might mean too much or nothing at all. If it meant that Natives should takc part in the Government as soon as they were fit for it, and no sooner, no onc could object; the proposition was in tlie nature of a truism: if it meant more than that, it would not be agreed to, for it was in contradiction to the resolution of 1858. As some of the new members might bo unaware of that resolution, he would read it to the House;—“ Resolved, that in the opinion of this House tlie Government ought to endeavour to obtain an opinion from .the law officers of the Imperial Government on the subject of claims to vote, preferred by aboriginal natives under the seventh and fifty-second sections of the Constitution Act, whether natives can have such possession of any land that is used by thorn in common as tribes or communities and as held under the title derived from the Crown, as would qualify them to become voters under the provisions of the afore cited sections; this with a view to petitioning the Imperial Parliament, or taking other proper measures to be relieved from the grave inconvenience and probable dangers to the Government of this country, which are to be apprehended should it be found that a large body of men, who are destitute of political knowledge, who arc mainly ignorant of tho language in which our laws arc written, and among whom, respect to tho law cannot he as yet enforced, have been allowed tho right of interference with the enactment of law.”

Mr. BELL: By whom was that resolution moved? Mr. CARLETON: By myself (a laugh). Was it any tho worse for that? If it had been moved by Satan himself it would still bo the resolution of this House (great laughter). The House might stultify itself by passing two contradictory resolutions if it pleased; there was nothing to hinder it; ho merely reminded hon. members of what they were about.-—[The hon. member proceeded to the question of the right of the Natives to the elective franchise under the Constitution Act, and argued that they could qualify as householders (though not as freeholders) on lands held bv ordinary Native tenure. He admitted that the law officers of the Crown considered the Natives as altogether disqualified, but thought that the case referred to tlie Home Government had not been clearly put.]— He (Mr. C.) spoke as a practical man, and asked what they were to do with Natives when they got them into the Assembly. The diffin cnco of language alone would render it impossible to carry on tho business of the House. His hon. friend moved that this House should assent to no laws which did not recognize the right to both races to a full and equal enjoyment ot all civil and political privileges. Speaking as a practical man again, ho would ask tho hon. member whether ho was prepared to bring in Bills to repeal all existing laws which were contradictory to that principle? If so, he would give him his hearty support.—[Tho hon. member referred to the Spirits Ordinance, the Arms Act, and the land laws.]— Was the hon. member for Ellesmere prepared to give that practical operation to his resolution?—[Mr. Fitzgerald; Yes.]—He (Mr. C.) did not see how the principle enunciated could be denied, and would have much pleasure in supporting the first resolution. Mr. HARRISON made a few remarks in vindication of tho conduct of the early settlers in this colony. From tho formation of tho colony to this hour on the English side there had been a system of concession, on the other, a system of exaction. He therefore considered the discussion of those resolutions at the present juncture of affairs inopportune. Referring to the obstinacy of the Taranaki Natives supported by almost, the whole country, he could only consider any political privileges given them now as a little allowance to keep thcpi in good temper. With that view the removal of the restrictions on leasing and the sale of liquors would bo ol more use than giving them political privileges, which few would appreciate and none care for. Major RICHARDSON referred to the important document which had been recently laid on the tabic, ami considered that it would bo extremely unwise and injudicious to press these resolutions at the present moment. Principles of the highest importance, ho acknowledged, had been enunciated by the hon. member with an eloquence rarely, if ever, surpassed, but when they came to analyze these resolutions he could not find anything in them worthy of such strains of eloquence. He entreated the House to put aside, if only for this one session, those animosities which had hitherto existed, ami assured the lion, member for Ellesmere that ho cordially reciprocated _ the kindly feeling entertained by him towards the Natives; but ho believed thcro was a duty which ho owed to tho colony

which would prevent him taking a step’ which in calmer moments and after mature consideration they might regret. The breadth of the principles enunciated had attracted their attention, but there were other things besides the basis which they must look at, as the superstructure to be raised on it, which ha thought impracticable in its nature, and undesirable even if it were practicable. He moved as an amendment the omission of the words “ or the passing of any laws.” If this amendment were made, the resolution would receive the unanimous approbation of the whole House. Mr. DICK seconded the amendment.

Mr. FITZGERALD: Sir, in replying very briefly, I will confine myself to making one or two observations on a few of the practical points which have been raised in the course of this debate, and I shall not notice the many criticisms which have been made merely on expressions which have fallen from myself, for they ought to have, and will hare, very little weight upon this House in bringing it to a decision on the great question at issue. I will not pursue the hon. member Bay into the various questions he has raised. For example, I will not discuss the question of Christian bigamy with him, nor will I venture for a moment to attempt to answer that argument of the hon. member’s to which no answer can possibly be given, namely, that it is entirely useless for any one in this House to argue with him upon this subject. But I will refer first to the amendment made by the hon. member for Dunedin (Major Richardson). My hon. friend wanted to cut out the words “ on the passing of any laws;” the hon. member for the Bay has said that the resolutions meant nothing, that they are a mere expression of opinion of which nothing will come; but the hon. member for Dunedin seemed to have a sneaking apprehension that something may come of them; and seeing that, wishes to cut away a great part of their meaning. Now I hope the House will give me credit for not having brought forward these resolutions for the sake of mere oratorial display. I certainly ment them to have a practical effect on the country; and if they were carried by this House, and we could find members on the Treasury bench who had any faith in them, I meant these resolutions to be the era of a new system of Native government in this colony. If you do not mean this, in heaven’s name throw them out. The hon. member had said they only contained the same language as had been used by Governor Hobson. I dare say they did, but I do not put any trust in princes, and still less in governors. The only thing I do put my trust in. in any Government, is the weli-considcred and distinctly ascertained mind of the people, not given hurriedly but slowly and deliberately, forcing the Government to take one distinct line of policy or another. Peoples governed by edicts and enactments proceeding from above them, have done, comparatively speaking, nothing; but the people who are governed by a public opinion emanating from themselves are those who have in the past, and most certainly will in the future, rule the destinies of mankind. I reject therefore most distinctly the alterations proposed, because the meaning of it is that the House shall give a feeble and inarticulate expression of what it has not faith in, and what will go before the Natives as a mere sham. Sir, the Native Minister made a speech last night which I listened to with the greatest respect, because I never heard a speech in my life which was made with greater calculation, greater care, and greater caution, a speech in which every word was most carefully weighed, in order that he might not let drop one single accidental expression which might in any way compliment the action of His Excellency’s Government. Anil what after all was the real pith and meaning of that speech? Why, I take it to be this, we accept your resolutions as a statement of truth which we are not prepared to deny, which our previous policy and all the expression of opinion we have indulgecl in in former times forbid us to deny, but at the same time we wish to avoid pledging ourselves ever to give any operation at all to these resolutions. Now, I am not prepared to say that the hon. member was wrong. Standing in an extraordinary posi tion, having only just assumed office, only just mounted the saddle and grasped the reins, ray hon. friend had, I think, displayed a caution, discretion, and judgment which gives me great hope that if he could appear before the House six mouths hence, when firmly seated in the saddle, the speech he would make would bo one of a different character from that which he delivered last night. Ho would then, I believe, be prepared to admit that these resolutions may be carried out into practical effect. But his present argument, as far as I understood it, was this, that we cannot carry these English laws into Native districts, and cannot get the Natives to unite; that they are in such a state of anarchy that they can agree upon nothing. Now these were just the things we heard years ago, when something cf this kind was spoken of, and what is the answer to it? That the Natives have agreed upon a king; that there is so much of union in them, however little, that give them a cause and an object, and they are capable of rising above those petty jealousies and determining on one man to govern them. My hon. friend said the Natives were in a state of anarchy, and then ho virtually proposes to trade upon that anarchy, to form plans based upon the existence of that state of anarchy. If you have any hope for these people, you must elicit what is lying dormant in their minds, a spirit of obedience to a common law. I offer, then, these resolutions to the Government not with the view of imposing any immediate action in them, but for the purpose of pointing out a distinct principle, which has never been admitted before by this House, and which I now ask to admit for the first time. I want to give these resolutions to the Government to strengthen their hands, to enable them to get at that feeling, that element in the Native mind which is the only one on which they can rear any edifice worthy of building. The member for Hawke’s Bay has said, that, in giving these Natives privileges, we ought at the same time to require them to understand the duties and responsibilities of a civilized state; and my hon. friend near him (Mr. Carleton) has used an argument which leads to the same result, saying that there was no dispute as to the propriety of giving the Natives these political privileges, as soon as they arc fit for it. I will answer to both these arguments by one reply. It is the same sort of answer as that which ho used to make. With regard to the continuing of cruel and bloody laws for the suppression of crime, it used to be thought that the more crime was puuished the less there would be, but it was found as a matter worthy of fact, that the more cruelly crime was punished, the more there was to punish. This is a similar case. It is said, don’t admit the Natives to receive laws and privileges till they are fit for it; but, when in heaven’s name, are they going to be fit for it? Ought we to wait till the Natives understand duties and responsibilities before giving them privileges? History has taught us a contrary policy; give men privileges and they will soon arrive at a sense of the duties and responsibilities belonging to them; place them in a position of responsibility and they will soon grow to fitness for the use of it; but keep them out of a position which they ought to fill and they will never arrive at a sense of their duties or be fit to fill that position (hear, hear). The case of the Irish Roman Catholics is a complete example of this fact. So long ns they were kept in a subordinate position, you had crime, violence, and a spirit of suppressed opposition which nothing could overcome; but as soon as the barrier was broken down and it was said “ lawless and ignorant as they are, and incapable of properly using any political rights, wc will admit them to all;’’ the result wc all knew. The member for the Bay used one argument which I am bound to take up: he has said that if I would repeal the Spirit Ordinance and the Bowder Ordinance, ho would support these resolutions. The hon. member’s meaning was this: “You have got these ordinances in force, do you mean by these resolutions to say we are not to have any such ordinances, that wo are going to get rid of the Spirit Ordinance and the Powder Ordinance?” Most undoubtedly I do say so, but let them not be supposed to imply that wo are to enforce no laws to put down a spirit of insubordination. We have had Arms Acts enough in Ireland, but they wore made to apply to all alike, to the rich as well as to the poor. When it was said all arras should bo stamped, wc did not enforce the law against the poor man and Jet the landlord go free, but the nobleman had to take his fowling-piece as well as everyone else to receive the Government stamp. Wo retained the idea of the supremacy of the laws oyer all alike, and so here, if the inhabitants of any district, whether Maori or English, were in a state of insubordination, I would pass laws and put them in force for that district; but that is quite a different thing trom saying that the Maori shall not drink spirits and the Englishman shall; cr that the Maoris shall not have arms and powder and the English shall. What we want is that a higher idea overylying the whole shall get into the minds of the Natives—the idea that there Ls one law for all men in this country. This is the only thing which will solve the great mystery; WO must get the Maori to recognise the idea of law—to have confidence in our laws; and one great means to that cud is to admit him into this House, and so to persuade him that if we make laws for him, ho makes laws for himself and also for us. The time will then shortly arrive when the Maori will have a thorough and entire trust in our laws, and we shall have no difficulty in enforcing them all over the country. The difference between the Englishman and the Maori iu this matter of respect for law is not a question of the power to enforce; a policeman goes to an Englishman’s house and is recognised as the authority of the law and obeyed accordingly; the policeman goes to the Maori’s house, and the Maori does not recognise in him the authority of law, but he recognises the badge ! of the submission of his own race to another. Ihe j Native docs not object to the law being enforced, but | he resists the idea of being put under submission to another race : —a race that has never given him one

I" 1 J ■ • tittle of law,to guide his actions. But what is. wotted is, that he should recognise in the poKcanan ntymbol : of the laws of the whole oountiy*-«f the two mated • races-and to adopt a large, wiio and bold policy by which the Native shall recognise that he is a maker of the laws for himself and fbr us; and that he is a part oftthat fountain of law of which the policeman Is merely the representative and organ. We should hare then no difficulty whatever in carrying our law* through every district by means: of Mahri policemen n and Maori tribunals, and in making roads through the whole country. If the i House would adopt such a policy as this, and die Ministers would only carry it out, I believe that very soon (but of course -1 do not ask the House tosay now soon) the: Native difficulty would be solved; not in years, but it might be in a few months. I have often been asked “do you mean then ' resolutions to come into operation at once?” My am oin swer has been, “ 1 do not want to bind the: House to ‘ oil any time, but my own opinion is that one man would bring them into operation to-morrow, another would take years about it; hence it mainly depended upon the men you can get to do it” The question was then put that the words proposed' to be left oat stand part of the question, and carried on the voices. The original resolution was then put and. agreed to. Mr. FITZGERALD without remark moved the second resolution.

Major RICHARDSON proposed as an amendment that after the word “ House” the following words should be omitted; “ will assent to no laws which do not recognise,” and the word “recognises” be in- 1 sorted.. - . ' , in.

The amendment having been accepted by Mr. Fitzgerald, the resolution as amended was agreed to. Mr. FITZGERALD moved the third resolution.

Major RICHARDSON hoped that the him. member, having gained every object he could wish by the passing of the first two resolutions, would consent to expunge the third altogether. 'ui.. 1 " Mr. COLBNSO opposed this resolution, as having an injurious tendency, because, when translated and laid before the natives, it would give them hopes which could not speedily be realized, and when it reached England it would moke them believe that the natives were in a far different state from what we'daily proved them. . ! -r. .;r: y; • v. " Mr. WELD fully concurred that as soon as circumstances were such as to make the presence of Maoris in this Legislature advantageous to both races it would he . most advisable to have them here. It appeared to him that these resolutions affirmed a state of things which did not exist. It would give a wrong impression to let the idea go abroad that the Maoris could not be repre- ...m sen ted in this House. [Mr. Fitzoeiuxd: They are not.] To a certain extent they were.i Maori* had 1 voted for members of this House, and if they only individualized their titles they could, at this time, turn the election of the whole of the northern island. Bat it did not appear necessary that they should be represented by members of their own race, nor was it the ! province of this House to say of what race their representatives should be. The House were all agreed as to the principle of the resolutions—that as soon as the fitting time came the Maoris ought to receive j these privileges, together with their duties and responsibilities ; but he objected to the House stultifyingitself and putting itself in the position of leading people to believe that the relations of the Maori were different from what they really are. . ton?:;* Mr. FOX agreed with the hen. member for Ellesmere, that if they did not give men priviliges they would never learn to exercise them any more than a : man would learn to swim who never went into the water. There were hundreds of natives, and even thousands, who could enter into discussions on abstruse ■_ points, and enlighten many hon. members,; men who would bo a credit to any English constituency, qualified ; in all respects, except it -were the possession- of the:., English language. (Hear, hear.) But that was not • conclusive argument against the admission, or why had ; French Canadians seats in the Canadian Legislature, and the Dutch Boors in the Legislature of the Cape, who understood so little of every speech that at the. end of it they always cried “ boet, boot, boot ?” (Laughter.) Ho thought the time was come when they might, with perfect safety, admit members of the native race into . this House; and, indeed, he did not know any way by : which they could exclude them now. (Hear.) If it,, were trae that many of them had voted at elections in spite of the opinion of the law officers of the Crown, and that hon. members tor the Hutt, for Porirua, , Hawke’s Bay, and the Bay qf Islands owed their seats in part to Maori votes, how then could they say it was; premature to introduce them into the House in tbe . capacity of representatives? If the Maori was entitled to vote at an election, he was entitled to a scat in this House, provided he could get elected; and all the hon.; member asked the Government to dowas to address itself to finding out means by which the Maoris should be encouraged to take part in political straggles, and to take their places among the representatives of the people. There were many places where it would be sound discretion for a European by his vote, to assist to send a Maori member to this House. He would vote for the resolution, which was quite competent to be carried without the addition of any provisio as to time. - The hon. Mr. BELL agreed with the member for Cheviot that it would bo a false impression to get abroad, if the interpretation of this resolution should. be that the House admitted that there was not at the , present moment a fair representation of the Maori race in this House. He thought it his duty, therefore, to say a few words on that subject, in order that the assent he gave to the general terms of the resolution should not be presumed to include that admission. Members sat there he argued as representatives, not of the electors only, but of the people of New Zealand, and as much represented those who had not toe franchise—whether Maoris or Europeans—as the House of Commons was representative of the people of Great Britain, though the number of electors, he believed, was .riot more than a million. If the hon. member said, then, that there was not a fair representative of the Maoris here, and could not bo under the present condition of. things, he (Mr. B.) differed from him, and should be sorry to see such a representation get abroad. If ho mcan,t to say, on the other hand, that they should look to the admission into this House of members more directly representing the native race than the European members could profess to do, then he should have put his resolution in more precise terms. There was no greater fallacy than the argument _ used by a great many who had advocated the exclusion of toe General Assembly from any participation in native afiairs—that. the native race were absolutely without representation in it, and the House could not allow it to be supposed, by a want of expression to the contraiy, that that was. a sentiment that was echoed there. They ought to profess that they did represent the native people; anq he was ready to go thoroughly with his hon- friend nL saying that so soon as it should be practicable to admit, the Maoris themselves to take their seats in this House, so soon as there should be found people that would bo willing to elect them, so soon ought they to be per- ’ fectly willing to receive them and get the benefit of their advice ; and ho did not hesitate to say that there were men among the Maori chiefs who were much .more competent, as regards intellectual activity and capacity for understanding public afiairs, than many of those who had determined by their votes the decision of thin ( House. (Hear, hear.) Ho wished to show his friend that the position ho took was not entirely a new one. Ho had always recognised that there was necessity to admit the principle of admitting the Maoli chiefs to a greater share in the government of the country than had hitherto fallen to them; and in au. who had watched the progress of events in the last few years, and had witnessed the succes* of the attempts tp induce them to take part in the administration of justice, there had been a growing desire to extend a share of the government of the colony to those of toe native chiefs who might prove themselves When, in a previous session, the establishment of « native council was proposed, he expressed the opinion ' (in which the hon. member for Cheviot had agreed wire bin;) that if it were to work well it would be abrolptely necessary to obtain the assistance of native chiefs in it, so as to conciliate the good will of the native people themselves. Ho should therefore support toe resolutiott; but he was anxious that toe impression should not be received by any, whether inside the out; that by passing this resolution they were denymg that they claimed to bo the representatives of too whole of both races, whether holding toe franchise or n °Mr. CARLETON would not ho able to vote for the third resolution, because it implied what, in hip opinion, was contraiy to fact—namely, that toe natives were not already represented in toe Assembly. They wrap represented not only in theory but also in practice. In theory just as much as every Englishman was reprt: seated in toe United Kingdom, though but a B®aU portion of the population had votes. He could not say precisely what was the proportion at present, but tn? figures were before him for 1851-53. of Great Britain and Ireland in 1851 was 27,724,84 * The total voters in 1852 were 1,179,103. No onopretended to say that non-electors were unrepresented m tbe mother country. And in this ~ recognise any distinction between the_Mpori, * Bakoha; like his hon. friend, the member for Efito>mere, ho treated all as subjects of the (Hear.) That toe natives were represented m reality was equally certain. In proof of this he need only appeal to toe proceedings of - ask whether members had not been found to defend native interests as earnestly as if they had been our own? (Hear.) As to direct representation, the fact' was that even now wo could not keepn&tives out of ton Assembly if they chose to come in. They coniq

register as householders, if they chose up living fa common, and coaid register « chose to accept crown grants. provided by the Ministry of 185 g This the swamnine of the European constituencies, xms was not an exclusion of natives from the enjoyment of the franchise! a native was free to exchange Ins Uorftffefa . crown title; the machinery wa.provided ; every encouragement was given. If so intern „ ent or. even so worldly wise as to see his advantage fa the exchange, he became almost, if not quite, a fit recipient of the privilege attached. He acquired a stake fa the general welfare of the community; he became personally interested in the maintenance of order* And. more than this, a native who accepted a Crown title did actually feel himself bound to render true allegiance to the British Crown. It was clear to him that a native had the means of working his way into the House, if he chose to avail himself of them. But the hon. member for Ellesmere, as appeared by his resolution, was of opinion that the means were wanting. Now, on that assumption, and speaking again an a practical man, he would ask that non. member whether he was prepared to follow up m resolution by bringing a bill into the House, altering the franchise for the purpose. [Mr. Fitzgerald : Yes.l Everybody was acquainted with the table oi the carter who called upon Jupiter to help him when his cart was stuck fast in the mud, but was advised m answer to clap his shoulder to the wheel. He (Mr. G.) in like manner would recommend the Maori to use the means at his disposal, instead oi calling to his non. friend Jupiter for assistance. He was at all times ready to place the Maori under exactly the same laws as ourselves, and to subject him to no disabilities. But ho was not disposed to go beyond that and to give tic native special privileges. Inverting to the question ot language, ho thanked the hon. member for Kangitikei (Mr. Fox) for his anecdote of the Dutchmen at the Capo, herding together at one end ot the House and shouting “ vote, vote,” because they were unable to understand the language in which the debate was conducted. He would ask that hon. member, whether he really desired to bring their own House to a kvclso low as that which he had described. He (Mr. G.) regretted much that he should feel it his duty to vote against the resolution. , Mr. DICK thought that none others but the Maoncs were represented here. The Maori question was always the first to come before them, while subjects relating to Europeans were always kept back. Members had been here for two months and done nothing but talk on the native question all the time, but nothing had been done. He would remind hon. members that there were other things besides land leagues springing up. There was such a cry as “ Separation,” he would remind them, gathering force in the southern islands, and all because native affairs were talked over night after night, while European affairs were hurried over at the end of the session. That cry from the South was notan empty sound; it had a meaning in it, and it would soon bo more loudly raised. He was sorry that a member from the South had been made ( a Native Minister, for they had enough of talk on native questions from southern members as well as northern, without getting a Native Minister from among the representatives ot the south. The native question they found had been engaging the whole attention of the Government; whereas the simole question which he had placed on the paper they had* not hadja moment’s consideration for. He presumed that would be the case through the whole session, unless their attention tvas drawn forthwith to important colonial questions which required immediate attention. He thought they might at least give a little time to them alternately with native matters; but no, it was constantly native questions night after night, till bon. members got twisting themselves about in positive pain. He had no more to say, but simply to remind the House that there was a separation question moving; and that unless some attention was paid to the south there would soon be a separation flag hoisting, and other important questions to be considered besides native questions. Mr. FITZHERBERT reminded the hon. gentleman that it was a member for the southern island who was at the head of native affairs. The hon. member for Dunedin (Major Richardson) was asking the hon. mover of the resolutions to take the very pitli and sense out of them. (Hear.) They were vyorthy of the great mind of the hon. gentleman proposing them; but if he withdrew this third resolution, he would withdraw the conclusion which he was drawing to by the two previous resolutions. He meant by them to say don t let us content ourselves with telling the natives we desire to do good for them, let us practically show that we are prepared to admit them on an equality with ourselves. He denied that the natives were represented; he would ask whether any Englishman would be satisfied with the barren belief that he was represented. If he (Mr. F.) understood the spirit of the resolution, it recognized this fact, —that never had a native been sitting in this House, and recognized their right to be represented by one of their own race. Without some such resolution as this there was a discouragement to the natives to come in and partake of the responsibility and the power which the members of this House had. Mr. FITZGERALD, in replying, said—lt was simply a question whether they were going to do anything or nothing. A greater piece of humbug than passing the first two resolutions and expunging this one there could not be. Ho could not understand why it was proposed to be admitted. There had really been but one or two arguments brought against it. One of the arguments which its opponents relied on was this, that the natives were already represented in this House. The Maoris, he contended, were not represented in this House, and they knew it. A very few of them were; but, taking them as a race and a people, they were not represented. The hon. member for Cheviot said the Maoris could always get votes by individualizing their title; and the hon. member for the Bay of Islands was extremely horrified at the idea of extending the franchise law in favour of the natives; but no horror was exhibited at extending the franchise in favour ot the diggers,—a class of people who were not even colonists, but were birds of passage. Why, then, such extraordinary' fear that it should be extended for a class of people who were forcing, and would continue to force, upon the House the most important subjects of interest for two or three years to come. It was true that if they individualized their titles and cot crown grants they could get votes, but that was a thing which they could not do at present: it would be many years before their titles conld be brought into such a state that they could get crown grants. It would, he admitted, he exceedingly dangerous, for the whole representation of the northern island should bo swamped by Maori votes; but was there any difficulty in cutting off one or two large Maori districts to return each one or two members? [Mr. Cua croft Wilson : Separating the two people again.] Nothing of the sort. There was nobroad line of demarcation between mereelcctoral districts. Ho would not go into the question of altering the franchise, because he did not think that at this it was proper for the House to _ force upon the Government any policy whatever, but just to intimate the course they wished, and leave it to those gentlemen and his Excellency to decide on the proper mode of carrying it out. 'He had forgotten to say one thing which was very much in point with regard to the representation question. He was not in the House in 1858, but he was under the impression that there was, ia that session, a bill brought in called the “ Native Offenders’ Bill,” when the argument was used that because the natives were not represented they oiiitht to he examined at the bar of the House, which was, he believed, accordingly done, and several missionaries also examined for a similar reason. One hon. member had said that the first thing they ought to have done was to put a Maori man in the Provincial Council of Canterbury, before proposing to bring them here. Now, it was exceedingly likely they would do so; for the whole of the native titles at Kaiapoi were now intli ■ vidualized. and the natives would exercise a large influence in the election if they did not actually return a native for that district; but he thought they would do even that before many months. With regard to the difference of language, looking at the House of Commons and this House (without intending any bad compliment), he should be just as satisfied to have a proposal judged of by the natives who did not understand the speeches, as by the votes of a great many of the members who did. The action of a vote being changed by a speech in a Legislative Assembly was one of the rarest things that had occurred. It was one of the greatest of triumphs that the Native Minister the other night did change a vote by a speech; but the way debating in general acted was not by changing votes at the moment, but by a steady elucidation of the subject, moulding ■ and framing in the long run the public opinion of the country. If twenty natives were sitting there he i should be satisfied that, by the aid of a good interpreter and reasoning among themselves, they would come to a correct conclusion as nine out of ten of those in this House who could understood the speeches. All agreed that they wanted to see one or two Maori members in this House as soon as they were fit for it; and tho question therefore was, how could that result bo arrived at most speedily ? by waiting till they understood our language, or by putting them into the House first, m the hope that it* would then not be long before they made themselves acquainted with it. Why, if they did not put them in till they understood the language they might wait till any good whatsoever that might follow from these or other resolutions must have died out: but once put them in this House, and let them feel what they lose by not understanding tho English language, they would, set to work, and it would soou be found that they understood the debates ns well as most people,

The question was then put on the third resolution, and negatived on the following division Ayes, 17. Messrs. Fitzgerald, 8011, Brandon, Fitzberbert, Moorhouse, Mantell, Reaall, Fox, Carter, John Williamson, Wood, G. Graham, W. W. Taylor, Gillies, Atkinson, C. J. Taylor, and Watt. Noes, 20. Messrs. O’Neill, Wilson, J. C. Richmond, Mames Williamson, Butler, A. J. Richmond, Cookson, O’llorke, Curtis, J. Munro, Wells, Nixon, Harrison, Carleton, Colenso, Ormond, Mason, Dick, Richardson, and Weld. ~ Mr. FITZGERALD, after that division, would withdraw tho remaining resolutions. Major RICHARDSON wished to move tho last one himself. The SPEAKER said the hon. member could not do so unless specially authorized. Mr. FITZGERALD said he could not authorize the hon. member, because he did not now wish the resolutions to be taken to His Excellency or pursued any further. TRUSTEES RELIEF BILL. On motion of Mr. GILLIES, tho Trustees Relief Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed presently. THE SUMMARY PROCEDURE ON BILLS BILL Was also read a second time, and ordered to be committed presently. NATIVE LANDS BILL. The second reading of this Bill was postponed till Tuesday next, on the motion of Mr. FOX. THE CROWN GRANTS BILL Was read a third time and passed, and ordered to be transmitted to the Legislative Council. HOUSE IN COMMITTEE. The House then went into Committee on tho Trustees Relief Bill, the Summary Procedure on Bills Bill, and the Steam Navigation Bill,'and after some time spent in consideration, the Trustees Relief Bill and the Steam Navigation Bill were reported with amendments; which were ordered to be considered on Friday. Progress was reported in the Summary Procedure on Bills Bill, which was ordered to bo farther committed on Tuesday. The House then adjourned at about half-past ten o'clock. FRIDAY, AUGUST Bth. The SPEAKER took the chair at 12 o’clock. PETITION. Mr. FOX presented a petition from Francis Williamson. HIS EXCELLENCY S DESPATCH ON MINISTERIAL RESPONSIBILITY, Major RICHARDSON asked the Colonial Secretary whether there is any memorandum of the ministers on the letter of his Excellency tho Governor to his Grace the Duke of Newcastle, of tho 30th November last, on the subject of a responsible ministry in connexion with the native race. Tho Hon. the COLONIAL SECRETARY replied that he was not aware of any memorandum whatever existing on tho subject. STANDARD GOLD WEIGHTS. Mr. A. J. RICHMOND asked the Hon. Colonial Secretary whether any steps have been taken to procure from England or Australia the standard gold weights, in order to bring into operation “ The Weights and Measures Ordinance Amendment Act, 1861.” Tho Hon. the COLONIAL SECRETARY replied that tho late ministry had sent home for them, and that they had been shipped in tho “ Blundell.” APPOINTMENT OP COMMITTEE ON REPORT OP LAND CLAIMS COMMISSION. The Hon. Mr. DILLON BELL moved, That the report ot the Land Claims Commissioner be referred to a select committee, with instructions to report whether, and if so, to what extent, farther legislation should take place on the subject of land claims, and whether effect should be given to the recommendation of the commissioner; committee to consist of Messrs. Weld, Fox, Wells, Carleton, Ormond, C. Wilson, C.8., Reader Wood, Major Nixon, and Major Richardson. Report to be brought up on the IBth inst. Agreed to. PRIVATE PETITIONS. The lion. Mr. DILLON BELL next moved—That the petition of J. H. Luscombc and Edmund Halswell be referred to the committee on Private Grievances. Agreed to. MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. The COLONIAL SECRETARY said, he would take this opportunity to make some general remarks explanatory of the views of the Government on native matters; in so doing he would start with some comments on the despatch from the Duke of Newcastle, received yesterday, because it materially altered the position of the House and the Ministers with respect to tho Governor. Honorable members would see that the general snbstance of that despatch was, that the Home Government proposed to transfer to the colony the whole Government of the native race. Next, although not so clearly expressed, it seemed from the tenor of the whole despatch, that they intended to give up tho greater portion of their claim for past military expenditure, except that of the militia, volunteers, and other local expenses. It also required the colony to contribute to the native scheme the amount of £26,000, and stated that the Home Government would relinquish their £5 a head for every soldier stationed in the colony, to meet the amount expended in the management of the natives beyond that sum, at the same time proposing that the* troops would be speedily very much diminished. The opinion was also broadly expressed that the colonists must take the defence of the country upon themselves; and it was especially remarked that wo did not seem sufficiently to apprehend the obligation that lies upon us to provide for the expense of our protection by additional taxation. Now lie supposed the views of every one were the same upon the point of the military defence of the colony. The reasons against defending ourselves entirely by militia had been well and often stated. It was in fact the most expensive force that could be provided, from the high rate of pay the men required, and from the fact that it drew the industrial classes from their ordinary occupations, so that farming and other pursuits were neglected, and the colony virtually impoverished. There were no such temptations to those classes, in the way of making rapid fortunes, as would induce them to remain in tho country when they had such inducement as this to leave it. Again, tho population being so scattered, tho defence of the out-settlers would be a matter of very great difficulty; and when in addition to all this, it was considered that wages in the Southern Island and neighbouring colonies were from ss. to Bs. a-day—-much more than we could possibly be expected to pay militia—it must bo evident that the attempt to enforce the establishment of a force of that kind, sufficient for our defence, would speedily result in driving away the population, and in the almost entire abandonment of this island. Any war carried on wholly by the colonists against the natives, would besides leave feelings of hostility which would not die away for many years even if such a war did not result, as it most probably would, in the extermination of tho entire race. There appeared, then, to remain, in the event of a war, no alternative but defence by regular troops, or the ruin of tliis island. It did, indeed, surprise him how the Home Government could attempt to force such an alternative upon this country; and yet, from the despatch in question, and others that had been received, he could not help thinking that to do so seemed to be almost their determination. The necessity of continually asking Parliament for fresh votes on account of this unfortunate war, had led them to contemplate the abandonment of their obvious duty to this colony. It really seemed as if the additional penny on the incometax, which this war had made necessary, outweighed in their minds all the remonstrances of tho colonists, and all tho difficulties of their position. And what was more wonderful still, the Home Government seemed ready to abandon all its cherished philanthropical ideas, | to disregard all it had hitherto supposed necessary for the preservation of the native race, and to whistle Exeter Hall itself down tho wind. All these effects had been produced by that omnipotent penny, which seemed almost to rival the almighty dollar of America, Was it not astonishing that England, which boasted so much of her colonies all round the globe, that called herself tho Queen of Nations, and was considered by the world to owe so much of her pre-eminent position to the possession of those colonics, but lor which she would be but a second-rate power—that England would contemplate setting this example of abandoning one of tho most promising of her numerous progeny, because it was in difficulties? It was strange indeed, and if that were to bo her future course, one could not conceive a better mode of sowing disaffection and distrust throughout all her possessions. Its effects in Australia, the Cape, and elsewhere, could not but bo highly detrimental. And might not tho evil example bo oven followed by ourselves ? Might not tho people of the Middle Island bo tempted to follow the precedent, and at soon as the mother country showed herself prepared to abandon New Zealand, might thejr not become equally willing to abandon the Northern Island? (Cries of “ No, no.”) Ho accepted tho disclaimer, and was glad to hear that they would act on a better principle, (Hear, hear.) But tho Duke of Newcastle complained that wo did not tax ourselves. Now ho (the Colonial Secretary) believed that every man in the Colony would consider it a duty to contribute everything in his power to the cost of the defences of the country, whether it was to be done by regular troop? glone, or ns >vflß most proper, fry troops

and volunteers combined; but he could not at this this moment pretend to say whether this Colony would bear more taxation for that object. Should the present Ministry, however, be fortunate, or unfortunate enough to remain in power, they would, before another session, give their consideration to this subject, keeping one thing always in mind in considering tho taxation of a new Colony, the advance and the prosperity of which depend essentially on public works, that to stop those public works, a proceeding which the Duke of Newcastle recommended, would be to retard in the most material degree that prosperity, and therefore destroy our future means of contributing to these expenses (hear, hear). It was this consideration of tho cost of possible wars that made it necessary to adopt such resolutions respecting the degree of responsibility for the government of the natives as those he had proposed. Tho assumption of that government which the Duke, it seemed, endeavoured to put upon us, would, of course, entail upon us the obligations that go with it, among which would be, to bear the whole of the expenditure that might arise from any misgovernment or difficulty occurring in the government of the natives. If wo assumed tho whole power, wo assumed the whole responsibility for such cost, and it really looked almost as if the noble Duke had only proposed to. give us that power, because he felt that without doing so he would have no good or solid ground for saddling on us the expense of the present or future wars. Ho thought then the House would agree that we could not accept the full powers offered to us (hear, hear,) for wo could scarcely ask England to pay for tho consequences of our own acts. But though the Duke wished to impose this power upon us, he (the Colonial Secretary) thought there was great doubt on technical and other grounds if England could really transfer the natives to us entirely. Certainly, if the Treaty of Waitangi was to bo considered of any value, tho government of the natives was ceded by it to the Home Government, that is, to the Queen, and not to us. Another reason against it was that the natives were not directly represented here (ironical cheers). He knew the meaning of those cheers. He had not forgotten that his hon. colleague, the member for Wallace, had last night argued that this House did represent the masses without the franchise in England were represented by members of Parliament, But the cases were not analagous. However, the matter was wholly one of theory, and difference of opinion about it was not of much consequence cither way. For whatever tho right legal theory, England would always be looked upon as responsible lor tho safety of the native race. The English public, and indeed the whole world, would consider her responsible, and it the race were to disappear, England would be blamed for it. He believed that the English public would therefore refuse to allow the government of the natives to be wholly transferred to us. Feeling on these grounds, then, that we could not accept the whole power, Ministers proposed to leave the decision of native policy to the Governor. But, in accordance with the royal instructions accompanying the Governor’s commission, we are bound to give the advice on all occasions. The resolutions declared that Ministers would, if the Governor requested it, undertake the administration of native affairs because if they were not administered by the Ministry there was no alternative but tho re-establishment of that office which had ocen so generally condemned by the House. For there must be same kind of establishment under the command of the Governor, to carry his policy into execution. So far their resolution differed from that proposed by the hon. member for Rangitiki, because that gave up to the Governor the initiation as well as the decision of all native questions. [Mr. Fox: Only of Imperial, not of native questions]. All native questions ho (Mr. D.) considered might involve Imperial interests (hear, hear). But he confessed he never could distinctly understand what the meaning of that resolution was, because at the end it said " that the interests of the Imperial Government and of the natives themselves, as well as of the Colony, requiring that (reserving to the Governor both the initiation and the decision of questions, where Imperial interests are concerned), the ordinary conduct of native affairs should be placed under the administration of Responsible Ministers,” mixing up consultation and administration in an extraordinary manner—the administration being given to the Ministers except consultation on matters concerning Imperial interests. Then, with respect to expenditure, which of course he supposed the House would decline to be responsible for as far as it properly could. Ministers had proposed a something, which he thought went far beyond tho resolution of the hon. member opposite. It amounted simply to this, that Ministers by any advice they might give, should not be held to bind the Colony to any liability for any expenditure not first voted or authorised by this Mouse, putting Ministers in fact under a pledge, in all dealings with ihc Governor, not to agree to any money expenditure which this House had not previously authorised. He now came to what was called the Native Policy of Sir George Grey, and first he would state in most distinct terms that lie did not consider himself bound in any way to bring in any new scheme or policy at all. The late Ministry having resigned on a question of certain relations between them and the Governor, before any condemnation, or even discussion of their scheme was come to in the House, the present Ministry did not take their places on any ground of condemning their scheme or mode of carrying it out. There was a general feeling in the House that Sir George Grey should be supported. There seemed to be no possibility of forming a Government from cither of the parties holding or supposed to hold extreme views on either side. In this emergency, he had tried to form a party —of men of moderate views. He had not sought for office or power—it had been thrust upon him. But with respect to the hon. members who were called the war-party, he supposed because their views were opposed to those of hon. members on the opposite benches, he did not believe any of them held the extreme views that were attributed to them. He did not suppose there was any one in this House, or in the Colony at this time that professed a war-policy (ironical cheers), and he defied any hon. member to prove that it had been held since England had determined that war should not be carried on, and that Governor Browne’s ultimatum should not be enforced. This House was not an independent power, and if England, the supreme power, took the question out of their hands, and said the result which they desired should be obtained by some other means than they would have chosen, and in some other way, it was the duty of all to give up the way first intended, even though they thought it the best, and endeavour to obtain it by the next best and only possible way. But he did not care to deny that he still, believed that if the natives had been taught first to respect the power of English arms, the schemes proposed for their benefit would have had much better chance of success. That much he would say—but ho would not say, that since England had decided that one way of settling the native question should not be carried out—they were not to help to settle the matter in the only manner England would allow of. Now, as far as the introduction of civil institutions among the natives constituted a native policy, he was certain that all his colleagues had been always in favour of sueh a policy. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) If that was a policy he maintained that it was everybody’s policy. It did not belong to the Governor, or to the late Ministry, or to Mr. Fenton—it was a thing everybody had long wished to see effected, and the dispute as to the origin of the idea was mere triviality. He was not quite sure that he did not himself, in the Nelson Exminer in 1846, on Sir George Grey’s arrival, in numerating the duties he would have to perform, particularly mention among others that of inventing and introducing institutions for conferring some self-government on the natives. He was of course merely speaking of the general idea of tho thing, Tho real credit after all rested with those who could carry out into effect tho introduction of a system of law and order and work successfully in detail (hear); and he would readily give to every one, including tho late Ministry, any praise they deserved lor what they had done already in the initntion of the system. But next as to the mode of introducing it. Everybody of ordinary education and average intellect, knew that in attempting to introduce civil institutions among uncivilized or savage tribes, one must look out for any germs or unorganized rudiments of social grovernment already existing among themselves. That remark of the most philosophical of England’s statesmen —Edmund Burke—that the English Constitution was a growth, would have led anyone to this idea. As in building a house, so in building or laying tho foundations of a Constitution, you must begin upon the solid ground, not upon “ made earth.” Ho did not see that there was much claim to any particular ownership in the native scheme so far as it attempted to carry out that well-known and universal principle. The runanga, chieftainship, and perhaps even “ mana,” were such elementary rudiments. With respect to the construction of the present scheme, he thought if it required any particular modification (he did not mean to speak with very great certainty on that subject) it was in the direction pointed out by tho hon. member for Ellesmere in that speech of his on Wednesday night, which would always be considered a memorable event in that House on account of its great eloquence, beauty, and high intellectual power, ami that the reason he had not recorded his vote it favor of the hon. member’s resolutions was because they were cither not general enough or not specific enough." Ho entirely agreed with the general tone and spirit of them ; but as they went to a certain extent into particulars about which there might be doubt, ho did not wish to be tied up ia this respect by giving an absolute vote in tfr«r favour. Still fie tfrongjit any improvement of ftp

present scheme should be in that direction. He thought that where a race like the natives was located m the midst of a race so much above them in civilization, the former would advance more rapidly than if isolated, with only a small governing body of the more advanced race above them as rulers, as in some other English colonies. It was not to be supposed they would be long satisfied with institutions so inferior to those enjoyed by the superior race. The institutions that had been offered to the natives could in no case be considered much higher than county boards or vestry meetings among ourselves. And it was obvious that institutions i of this inferior character could not have much attraction j for the heads of a people banded together for the purpose of establishing a separate nationality, with a king and grovernment and troops of their own. County boards ojr parish offices would scarcely content them when they had been indulging in ideas of offices and dignitaries so much higher. Therefore he agreed with tho hon. member for Ellesmere that something more was required than the present system gave to win any adherents of the king movement, and he saw nothing abstractedly ridiculous in the idea of making Native Provinces with Superintendents, nor even in having natives sitting here in the Legislature among us, though the great practical difficulty, which would render it useless at present, would be their not understanding the English tongue. He could not but say that the attention of the Government ought to be directed to contriving some kind of means for the execution of plans of a higher character, such for instance as the establishment of a higher Council in which the) superior chiefs might sit, presided overby the Minister for Native Affairs, or some other high European officer. He could not but think that there might be means invented which would offer very much greater attractions to tho chiefs engaged in the king movement than any contained in the present scheme. He would make a remark on another point. Not having for many years meddled much in native matters, he spoke with diffidence ; but it seemed to him apparent that the system had been pressed too rapidly and urgently upon the natives in many parts of the country, and that the village runangas, though considered by some competent persons to be the necessary germ of institutions that would bo successful, had been excited ioo much into a, not to say dangerous, but a detrimental activity. A kind of rash of runangas had broken out all over the face of the country; they had taken the natives from all their usual industrial pursuits. He judged this bv the reports printed in the papers before the House. He should propose that much more attention should be given, and reliance placed on another point connected with native policy, which he believed had been suggested by the late Ministry, viz., to introduce to as Targe an extent as they could companies of English immigrants. Ho would plant settlements on the outskirts of all the old settled districts in this island, something in the style of tho Pensioner settlements formerly established, but not composed so much of invalided or old men, but of men in the prime of life and vigor. By this plan greater security would be afforded, and it would be one of the best ways of getting rid of the present difficulty. This, of course, was a plan that could only be carried out to any useful extent at considerable outlay ; and he should propose, if he stayed in his present place, to give the Governor power to raise a loan of at least a million to carry out the scheme effectually. As every immigrant contributed £3 a-hcad to the customes revenue, they might bring out men enough to pay the interest of that money, at all events, after the first year or so. He did not know what the late Ministry had done in this direction, but the plan was one which the Governor himself certainly approved of. Out of the same sum might be found the means of employing natives in making roads. The project wa«, no doubt, a difficult one which would involve a great deal of consideration, communication with the Superintendents of provinces, and probably also with the Home Government; and, therefore, having only just come into office, he could not protend to say he had any cut and dried scheme perfect in detail to introduce to the House. Of course after having stated what he thought was the relations that should be maintained between the Ministry and the Governor, they should not attempt to go on with any of these plans unless cordially agreed to by Eis Excellency, so as to be to all intents and purposes his own. There was another subject on which a strong feeling existed which he hardly need say much about on the present occasion—the condition of Taranaki. The lion, member lately at the head of the Government had made a statement to the House with respect to that with which he (Mr. Domett) found no fault whatever. He could not say Ministers would give such advice to the Governor as might have for its result to precipitate him against his will, or at a time when his judgment disapproved, into any kind of war with the natives of that place. This matter must be left entirely to the Governor himself, but he conld say this, that the Governor felt strongly that that settlement, if it remained in its present state, was not only a blot and a disgrace to the British reputation, but that it was his decided opinion that it would have a most deleterious effect wherever it should be heard, at the Cape, in India, and any other colony where Englishmen were in the neighborhood of colored races, and that he fully recognised the desirability of putting an end as speedily as possible to the lamentable state of things at Taranaki. More than that he could not say at present. There were other matters connected with native policy to be considered, but he was not prepared at present to make any statement regarding them. He had now only to thank the House for the patience with which they had heard him through these somewhat dry observations, and to move the first resolution.

Major RICHARDSON seconded the motion. Mr. FITZGERALD moved the adjournment of the debate, in order that tho House qiight have time to consider the despatches from the Duke of Newcastle, and to make up its mind on one of the most critical positions in which the colony had ever been placed. Under the circumstances it was not too much to ask for a week, and in the meantime they might go on with other business, which he agreed with the member for Dunedin (Mr. Dick) had been too much set aside this session.

Mr. FOX seconded the motion, and some little discussion ensued; but as it appeared evident they could not possibly come to a decision in time for the mail, an adjournment of the debate till Tuesday, 19th, was agreed to.

CONDUCT OF TUB “MAORI MESSENGER.”

Mr. COLENSO, in moving, “ That in tho opinion of this House it is highly desirable that the Government serial called the Maori Messenger, printed for and circulated among the Maoris, should be placed under proper supervision and made as effective as possible; vide articles HI. and IV. of May, and article HI. p. 6, of July, 1862,” referred to the absolute want of proper supervision of this periodical; every number being full of errors of selection, of translation, and gross typographical errors, of which he produced examples from recent numbers, among the former of which were dry disquisitions on law, Ac., and things which though all right in one part of the island, were dreadful curses to the natives of another part. If it were to be of any use it must be placed under proper supervision at once. Mr. J. C- RICHMOND, in seconding the motion, expressed the opinion that the House owed tho hon. member a deep debt of gratitude for bringing forward this subject. The periodical, as it was at present got up, was a dull dreary affair, which did not appear to him to meet any of the wants of the case. A. thing like this, if properly handled, might wield a real practical power. It might be employed for some other purpose than dreary reprints of Gazettes, and preachings against smoking, &c. ; and might supply the Maoris with a real literature which they could and would read, and might be made a means of introducing English into the Maori language as much as possible. With an honest desire to do good, the editor of this paper might wield a great power—the only absolutely safe power we had in our hands at the present moment. The hon. member then referred to tho present conductor of the paper as a gentleman notorious for dealing in ambiguities, &c.; and said he did not object to buying these mischievous sort of people to be silent, but it was a mistake to put them in such a position as conductor of a paper like this. Mr. FOX thought this was more a matter for the consideration of the Executive than of this House. When in office he had become painfully aware of the mischievous character of much of what was inserted in the Messenger , ami came to the determination that it must he placed under proper control, and its whole character altered, or made into a mere Gazette, and accordingly he placed its control in the hands of a gentleman whom ho believed in every way qualified for the post by his extensive knowledge of tho native language, having the greatest experience of them, and a gentleman of undoubted ability with his pen when he chose to exercise it. He had since left it much to that gentleman’s discretion, simply directing him to avoid articles of a dreary, inflammatory, or party character, and to make it more interesting by inserting briefer articles with interesting headings, accounts of journies, &c.; but if ho had had larger resources at his disposal he should have studied some better organization by which, with the assistance of real literary talent, it should be made an effective organ for ihe political and social enlightenment of the Maori race. Without such organization it would answer no useful purpose. The hon. member then replied to several of tho strictures made by the mover on particular mistranslations, bad selections, &c.

The Hon. Mr. BELL also made a few observations on the question, and mentioned that tho last speaker had consulted with him about this periodical, and they had agreed upon tho principle to be carried out, but ngt qpi the course to frp taken, Jf fro ponliwl 111

office, he would tom his serious »hwhiw “V this monstrous humbug into something which shou j give the natives useful and interesting instruction. Mr CARLBTON said a few words in defence of j Mr. Davis, whom he believed to be perfectly trust-; worthy and faithful to his employers, and to those who were content to use him well ... - Mr COLBNSO, in replying, expressed the belief that not only the Maori Messenger, but Sir George Grey's Book of Songs and Traditions, and the Maori translation of Robinson Crusoe, had been productive of iniury among the natives, as well as publications of the parts of the Old Testament containing the wars of the Jews. Motion agreed to. LETTEU FROM TEE BISHOP OF WELLINGTON. Mr. FITZGERALD asked the permission of the House to read a letter from the Bishop of Wellington to him, which, he wished him to have read at the time he moved his resolutions; but the last paragraph which contained this request being over the page had escaped hi. inention. WeUi „ gtoaf “ 7th August, 1862. « Sir,—As it is not by any means certain that any member of (he House of Representatives, when speaking on your resolutions of yesterday, will defend the conduct of the Missionary body, which you impugned on the ground that they had thrown obstacles m the way of colonization. I trust to your generosity to let this one plea he heard in the House during the course of the debate. . . , ~ ‘•I admit that your own position, as regards this point, is unassailable. You judge the conduct of the Missionaries exactly on the same principles that you now urge the early adoption of the course advised in your resolutions. I understand you to say broadly that the natives ought at once to have been admitted, togegethcr with the colonists, to the rights and duties flowing out of the Constitution Act of 1853, I understand you to attribute much of the confusion existing at present in native affairs, to the fact that they were not at once recognized to be as fully entitled as ourselves to a voice in the Legislature of the country. “ Taking, as you seem to do. this broad view of the question, I can find no fault with your complaint against the Missionaries, that they did not, when the colonization of this country was proposed, at once recognize the capacity of the Maori for social and political advancement, and his fitness to endure contact with the virtues and vices of civilization, your line is consistent, I allow; but I may fairly call upon all those who consider the policy set forth in your resolutions as premature, to make a considerate allowance for the Missionaries, who wished to defer the day of colonization to a time when the lately converted Maori should be strong enough to bear the risk of contact with the colonist. The Missionary did not absolutely oppose all colonization, but simply asked for time to train and educate his convert for the great trial that awaited him. _ “ [ think that I may fairly press this plea upon all either in or outside of the House of Representatives, who may charge your resolutions with being premature, and unsuitable to the present condition of the Maori race. “If no defence is raised in the course of the debate, in behalf of the Missionary body, I would request you to put forward this as one plea out of many that might be used.

“ I have, &c., “ (Signed) C. J. Wellington. “ James E, Fitzgerald, Esq., “M.H. R., &c." THE PANAMA ROUTE.

The House went into Committee of Supply to consider the first interim report of the Communication Committee, Mr. CROSBIE WARD, as Chairman of the Committee, moved seriatim the resolutions contained in the report, which is as follows: — “ Your Committee having taken into consideration that part of the subject committed to them which refers to communication with the United Kingdom, and to the Ocean Postal Serrice, have agreed to the following resolutions, which they recommend for adoption by the House; —

“ I, That, in the opinion of this Committee, the establishment of regular monthly steam communication between New Zealand and the United Kingdom, via Panama, is calculated to confer very great benefits upon this Colony. “ 2. That considering the probable expense of such an undertaking, it is desirable that the service should be so constructed as to confer advantage upon, and obtain the support of, the neighbouring Colonies. “3. That this Committee recommends the appropriation of a sum not exceeding £30,000 per annum, from Ist January, 1864, for five years, as a contribution towards the Colonial portion of a subsidy for such a service.”

—The hon. member entered at length into the advantages to be gained by this Colony by adopting the Panama Home, which have already been so frequently stated that it is unnecessary to repeat them. The speedy adoption of it, he urged, was a vital necessity for this Colony, and would amply repay the expenditure required, viz., £30,000 a year, New South Wales guaranteeing £50,000, lea ring only £40,000 a year to be made up by the Imperial Government, Melbourne, and other Colonies that might come in. The two first resolutions having been passed, a discussion arose on the third, in place of which Major RICHARDSON moved the following amendment:— “That it is desirable that the Government should enter into communication with the other Colonies with a view of assisting and encouraging the commencement at the earliest possible period of such an important service,” referring to the Duke of Newcastle’s despatch, and the enormous expenditure which was about to be cast on the country, rendering it unwise to resolve at the present lime upon any unnecessary expenditure. After some remarks in support of the motion by Messrs. Stafford, Moorhouse, Bell, Gillies and Wood (the late Colonial Treasurer), who expressed his belief that the Colony would be able to afford twice as much asjwas required, progress was reported and leave obtained to sit again on Friday next, in order that the financial statement might be made before deciding upon the question.

In the course of the discussion Mr.WOOD congratulated the House that the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government had now been able to fill up the office of Colonial Treasurer, which he must say had caused him a considerable amount of trouble during the last ten days, for in many quarters he had been unjustly and undeservedly condemned, reports having been very industriously circulated, without the slighest shadow of foundation, that it was his intention at some period, possibly in a few days or weeks, to commit an act which, if he had committed, he should have lost all self-respect, and the smallest imaginable position which he had ever held as a public man, viz., to desert those who had supported him when in office, in a manner which he must confess any little ability he might possess had not merited. He should not now be misunderstood when he said that, in consequence of the loss in the “ White Swan,” a great many of those documents which would have enabled the hon. gentleman appointed to the office of Treasurer to have made the financial statement which this House always required before entering upon financial business, he should have great pleasure in placing at the hon. member’s disposal such information as he possessed, which would enable his hon. friend at any rate to give to the House a statement of all that financial business having reference to the conduct of the Treasury during the last financial period. Were he to refuse *to do such a thing as that he should scarcely be acting as the House would expect him to act under such circumstances, and it would bo, he thought, an act of churlishness on his part not to place such information at the disposal of the Government of the day. The Hon. the COLONIAL TREASURER, in acknowledging the statement of his hon. friend opposite, said, the Committee would recognise in it, the highest view, on the part of that hon. gentlemen, of his obligation to the public service, for his own part he felt a personal obligation to the hon. member which he must allow him to say he did not altogether expect to be placed under. He had not fairly given the hon. gentleman credit for so kindly a feeling though he admitted, he ought to have done so, and it was with some hesitation he had asked him to place him (Mr. B.) in possession of the information which, in consequence of the loss of the “ White Swan,” he alone here possessed. Ho (Mr. B ) should most gratefully take advantage of the offer made to him. With reference to the rumours the hon. member had alluded to, he (Mr. B.) must say both for himself and his colleagues, that none of them would have dreamt of offering any proposition to the hon. member, nor dream that he would for a moment entertain any proposition that would compromise his political integrity, and he (Mr. B.) hoped that whatever rumours the hon. member might have heard abroad, he would not for a moment believe that any of the Ministers would consider him capable of doing anything which he should consider in the slightest way derogatory to his public honour.

superintendents’ nomination bill.

The second reading of this Bill having been postponed till Tuesday next, the House adjourned at about 10 o’clock.

TUESDAY, AUGUST 12tii 1862. The SPEAKER took the chair at 12 o’clock.

PETITION. W'i PAHTJP presented a Petition fr°m W, g,

Chamberlain, a settler of WaharapaTwhh^T^ s Jebt owing to him by a Native, for - obtained judgment, but execnriou was iZ. I*M 1 *M tion read and received. papers. The following papers were laid on the table by 1. Petition of William Edinborough ChamW liastcrton, Wairarapa, carpenter. (Mr r^r^ef 2. Papers relative to claim made bv MaW^ for lodging money. J Jor -aerb^^ 3. Return of all persons appointed toanv r* the General Government between the Ist % **"*-<**•£%: 4. Papers respecting the representation of Ne* ? land at the International Exhibition by Mr m 5. Papers relative to the command of the Militia, and as to the precedence of Office™ and Volunteers. Keturn to an Order of the 1862. (Mr. Atkinson.) 22n ®Jdly 6. Return showing the number of Discharged and Pensioners, the number of Civilians wHaA drilled, the number of Civilians who have but not drilled, in the Auckland Militia i? Ordtr of 22nd July. (Major Nixon.) J ** 4ra 7. Return of all persons who have held Comm; • in the New Zealand Militia and Volunteers^*^ 1 grade and dates of commissions and resienati 48 the causes of resignations. Return to Order July. (Major Nixon.) Wer of 18th 8. Return showing strength of various Vnk . Corps on Ist January, 1862. and 30th June isaT*®®' pectively; also a Return to 30th June 1862 Zli 0 * the number of resignations under the provision?^ Volunteer Regulations dated January 1862 Order of the I6th June. (Major Nixon ) a ® ant ® 9. Correspondence between the Governmental. Morrison, respecting sending game to this fv fflr ' Return to order of the 6th of August Graham.) ’ H, REMOVAL OF THE BEAT OF GOVERNm^

Mr. DICK asked the Colonial Secretary wh»h • is the intention of Government to propose durkfi* session a removal of the Seat of Government S! central position in the Colony. * ® we Hon. Mr. DOMETT replied in the negative, a. question havmg always been an open one with» Ministry. "*7 MUNICIPAL BILL. Mr. ;O’NEILL, in asking the Hon the , Secretaiy. whether the Qoiinimeai'intenSrtS present session to introduce any measure municipal institutions on such towns as may be d«i rous of obtaining the same, said I believe that the U ministry intended if they remained in office to introdue! a Bill of the character indicated in my question atW I gathered as much from the reasons given forjfceS allowance of the Mannkau Harbour Bill The poDnlt tion of the larger towns is increasing so rapidj/S™ it cannot be expected that they will be content wto such powers as may be given them from the Prorinda! Council being able to delegate their powers at all toother bodies. If the Government would bring in a Bill sma. lar to the English Commissioners’ Act it would meet the wants of the Colony. The people of Aucklaad we not satisfed with the powers given them bv tfe Provincial Council, and would have come to the Boo* for enlarged powers were it not that circumstance prevented it at the proper time, I hope the Government will take the subject up in a proper manner, and that the people of such towns as require large powers of self-government could apply for the same by petition. The Hon. Mr. DOMETT replied that, so far ah{ was informed by the legal adviser of the Govenmeat there was nothing to prevent the Provincial Coondi forming municipalities, but with regard to the extended powers required, it would be impossible this session for the Government to give their attention to the subject. Mr. O’NEILL asked Ministers whether the HandBook of Law, for the publishing of which money vu voted last session, is yet printed. The Hon. Mr. GILLIES replied that a portion of it only had been printed at present, on account of the great changes proposed in the law by the late Ministry. It would now be completed as soon as possible. Of the sura of £BOO voted, only £3O was left, ADMINISTRATION IN THE MIDDLE ISLASD. Mr. FOX asked the Hon. the Colonial Secretary whether it is the intention of the Government to make any, and what provision for the better administration of the General Government in the Middle Island. The Hon. Mr. DOMETT replied that while the Government freely admitted the inconveniences arisin| from the present stale of things, they did not intends; present to propose any such provisions. A meeting was held yesterday, of Southern members, and tiie result they came to was that it would be better to leave things as they were than make any partial removal of the Executive. - GOVERNMENT BILLS. The Hon. Mr, GILLIES moved for and obtained leave to bring in the following Bills, which were lead a first time, ordered to be printed, and to be read a second time to-morrow;—A Bill to amend the “Miners' Franchise Act, 1860,” a Bill to afford additionalfiepresentation to the Province of Otago, a Bill to continue , the “ Arras Act, 1860,” for one year, a Bill to amend the “ Bills of Sale Registration Act, 1856,” the “ Wool and Oil Securities Act, 1858,” a Bill to amend the “ Lost Land Orders Act, 1861.” and a Bill to amend the “ Customs Duties Act, 1858.” The Hon. Mr. RUSSELL moved for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the “Joint Stock Companies Act, , 1860.”—Bill brought in, read a first time, ordered to be printed, and to be read a second time to-morrow. The Hon. Mr. DILLON BELL moved for leave to bring in a Bill to authorise the issue of Crown Grants to Natives in certain cases.—Bill brought in, read a first time, ordered to be printed, and to be read asccond time on Friday next. MINISTERIAL EXPLANATIONS. The Hon. Mr. DOMETT informed the House, that to-morrow a statement would be made of the views of the Government with regard to the disposal of the Native lands, and that on Thursday the Colomal Treasurer would make the. usual financial statement. On Tuesday, in the debate on the Duke of Newcastle a Despatch, the Government would come down with resolutions expressive of the course they thought should be taken by the House with reference to that subject NATIVE POLICY. Mr. FITZGERALD gave notice to ask the Ministers, on Wednesday, whether it is the intention of the Government to bring in any Bill for assimilating the proposed District Kunanga system to the ProvincialsvsKm of the rest of the colony, by the formation of Mtive provinces ; whether it is the intention of the Government to bring in a Bill for enabling the Supreme Go® to try cases in Native Districts pending the fonnawn of Jury and Grand Jury Lists in such Disuk»: whether it is the invention of the Government to constitute separate Electoral Districts, wholly or pnnaj* . inhabited by Natives, and to give a franchise » inhabitants of those districts which shall enable to to elect members to this House, or to Pw™jr Councils, on the same principle as that in wmett ! proposed to give a representative to the miners Q fields.

PRIVATE GRIEVANCE PETITION. Mr. FOX moved that tbs Petition of liamson, presented by the mover, be referred W Private Grievance Committee. —Agreed to. COMMITTEE TO CONSIDER CROWN LANDS BI VMr. FITZGERALD moved that the Crown Bill be referred to a Select Committee Hon. Mr. Russell, Mr. Colenso, Mr. J. C. ® 1C “““L the Hon. Mr. Domett, Mr. Brandon, Mr. Ejcs, • Crosbie Ward, the Hon. Mr. Gillies, and the Holt *”• Dillon Bell, and to have power to send for persons papers, and report on Friday.

THE MARINE BOARDS BILL Was ordered to be read a second time to-morro*' THE SUMMARY PROCEDURE ON BILLS BUi Was passed through Committee, reported* amendments, and ordered to be considered to-m THE NATURALIZATION BILL Was read a second time, committed without ments, read a third time, and passed. , ’ * The Order of the Day for the second reading 01 f

THE NATIVE LANDS BILL SSfflm. MINiSTEB the Bill should remain, so as to be compare Bill that was to be brought in by the Government. The question being put, on Mr. Fitzgerald the House divided as follows: — . , r gj. Ayes, 18: —Messrs. Moorchouse, Jome» M J . chardson ,Carleton, Ormond, Colenso, W l^ n > Nixon, Domett, Cookson, Atkinson, » .J/mjW). Fcatherston, Russell, Thompson, and Fitzger C „ Noes, 11:—Messrs. W. W. Taylor Brand®. Bell, James Williamson, Dick, C. J. laylor, W Man tell, C. Ward (teller). THE SUPERINTENDENTS* NOMINATION _ Mr. FITZGERALD, at the request of several . hers, moved that the reading oi t tpostponed till Thursday, evening sitting. . „.i.wt Tiio House then adjourned at 10 mmutw to 2 o