General Assembly of New Zealand. [BY OUR OWN REPORTER.]

New Zealander, Volume XVIII, Issue 1713, 9 August 1862, Page 4

General Assembly of New Zealand. [BY OUR OWN REPORTER.]

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. WEDNESDAY, JULY 23rd, 1862. The SPEAKER took the chair at five o'clock. PETITION. Mr. CARTER presented a petition from 52 residents of the eastern side of the Wairarapa Valley, complaining of a want of Postal communication. Petition received and read. THE CONDITION OF TARANAKI. Major RICHARDSON, in moving "That this House should be informed, so far as may be consistent with any present or prospective Military arrangements, what measures are proposed to be adopted towards the Taranaki and Ngatiruanui tribes, with reference to the murder of unarmed British European subjects, and also with reference to the destruction of the homesteads and plunder of the property of the inhabitants of the Province of Taranaki," said ho wished that the information given last night by the Colonial Secretary had been of such a character and extent as would have made it unnecessary for him to move these resolutions, but the more ho had listened to the hon. gentleman the more he felt himself in a maze, and he was even now in doubt whether the announcements made last night were those of Ministers as they stood in relation to the late Governor, or as responsible in Native matters. Though a Southern member, he took, as he believed all the Southern members did. a most lively interest in everything that concerned the welfare of the Northern Island, and this was ono of the principal motives which had induced him, almost a singer, to stand forth this

evening and ask for explanations ing fellow-subjects »t Tar»noia. disabuse the minds of Ministers of the WevfSiJj entertained any such) that there was anythint«! hostility on hi* part. He wished to take aa iad»W dent position, and ascertain the merits of etetfiUm the question. He agreed with the Colonial Steml that it was impossible to legislate for the European*!!] Native separately, or to consider any question. ofNiti policy without bringing in other questions coohm!! with it. He should, therefore, be excused tfUh. yelled a little from the subject of his motion. 5 I Colonial Secretary had yesterday annoraeedtbtA I Native policy of the Government ascribed its patent not to either the Ministry or the Governor alone. W both; that it had emanated from His had been fully and deliberately concurred ia br 1? Ministers. One thing, however, was wanting J, that the agreement that hid taken placed, tween them on the subject of responsibility, tW have received a more definite ebape. (Hear W I The hon. gentleman had told th :.m that nite had been put in writing on the subject, audh* referred them to certain despatches aad minutes«! sained in the printed papers—papers which, he •» bound to say, had been placed before the House trffti frankness he had scarcely seen pstmDed, whether si porting their views or antagonistic So thenu But tb» was one reservation made by the Colonial Secretary which made bim still more doubtful of their w* tion, vii., the statement that the entire responsibiaH any action with regard to the Tataraunaka kL would be that of His Excellency. The hon. mem]*, had also said, there was a striking harmony in the ooi nions of His Excellency, his Advisers, and the Bom Government. He had read over all the papers, and tin impression on his mind was that of a harmonious d» cord or discordant harmony. The hon. member (Ifm R.) after passing in review some of the circumitaac« of the past few years, read the following extract fan a Minute by. Ministers, dated Bth October, 1861: " If there moat be a war, it is better far that U should ».«, Taranaki than elsewhere. For whatever mischief eouid 2 w Aided on British settlement! by a state of war,; has beta &,* there. The penahiea of war have been already paid. Ettifc, this, the case of the Ngalinianni and Taranaki NatirtiuT one which present* the fewest grounds of sympathy wsta£ Natives, They eat aged in the quarrel without were guilty of gross outrages. Their present attitude wJSI such open hostility, as in the eyeiof well affected Natives tat* aelves would not merely justify, but demand on oar parttan, measures ogainst them, and retribution for the wrong) fat Added to this, if operations were carried on with a vitTt open up and establish military communication by roadsbrrtn Taranaki and Wanganai, snrb operations would be aUaatS with some facilities, and in the end with great patent advaUM? " Ministers are of opinion (so far as they ran pr.sarne toefu an opinion involving military considerations) that firm aadfe! cisive action shoold be taken in this direction. They stßrn the effect would be in no long space of time to bring the Knn. ruanuis and Taranakis into submission. The acttleatata Taranaki might then, in the end, be re-established oatgfij basis, and enabled to recover and extend itself. " It is not improbable that hostile operations in the Tinny country would draw towards it some portion of the Natives oi other districts. Soch a possible lesntt would not, ia of Ministers, be a sufficient reason against the course of wSm which tbey recommend. •' The time and manner of commencing snch operations naß require distinct consideration. Tbe first object appears to £ „ far as possible, to win back tbe allegiance of the hoik of tsi Native people, and to place the settlements in an effecting. ion of defence. Ministers do not apprehend any »yrmj, ( movements on the part of tbe Natives as likely to result (ma the course which they recommend, except against tbe atttltaKßti of New Plymouth and Wanganai. "There appears to Ministers no inconsistency in rtraliogajik tbe main body of the Natives, tbe Waikatos in particular, asrita a gentle and even friendly hand, and endeavouring by ail legitimate means to recall and attach them to us; and at the am time assuming a stern and decisive attitude towards tie jtn, tiroanuis and Taranakis, with a view to compel from them tniu. rial guarantees for their future good behaviour." He thanked Ministers for that clear and manly eipr& sion of their opinions. (Hear, hear.) These, senti men ts had his most hearty and cordial approval Then was, also, one other point on which Minister! lad given an equally clear expression of their views, hi Memorandum printed in E, No. 2,page 20, they vrroteu followß: — "As regards the financial aspect of the experiment sbostta be made, Ministers have already addressed His Executor;in another memorandum. They will only add their belief that tat General Assembly will readily vote any reasonable sum forth! proposed objects,—say the extent of the amount indicated hj; His Excellency,—provided it feels satisfied that soch eipesdttwi will compass the object in view; namely, the pemaaeat » lotion of the Native question. But it is right that HUEictileiicy should understand,the mind of the Colony aad the Aaemblj on this point What they want is a permanent, and,if eosusie, a peaceful adjustment of the question, with reasonable runstees for the futnre tranquillity of our settlements, and tie itdhlurbed progress of colonisation. They will be ready to pit. chase these objects at a large price. But tbey will not at contented with any mere temporary lull of Native disturbanen; id Ministers feel bound to add, that the Assembly may pouiWj hesitate to admit its entire liability for tbe past nunirtmeßl of the Natives or its consequences, inclsding the late war tsi whatever may be the sequel of events directly flowing boo it' These sentiments were as honorable to Ministers at any they could possibly hold. He would next proceed to read His Excellency's own views indicated ia I Despatch to the Dnke of Newcastle, dated 30taKor, 1861 : " The nselessness of forcing ibe Natives here ta aceepteertail terms of peace is shown by what took place at theWlitm Certain terms of peace were proposed by the Governor; ssm Natives refused to have adytbtng to do with them, ouwi «c. cepted them on the sth of April, 1861. They were Wlfllljr approved by Her Majesty's Govenunent, a Commisjioiw wn appointed on Her Majesty's behalf to rarry out oa her parts portion of them, and be proceeded to the Waitara to exetsltaa mission; when the very Chief who bad borne the prieopuprl in accepting the terms of peace, declared his inability to entat them, saying, "It rests with the people;'' and. finally,U> *«■ mistioner, amidst threats of violence, was obliged to WW W place, biing satisfied that they would resist by force ofanm nj attempt which might be made to carry out the terms agues oa, i He did not know how it was possible to come to «ny terms with a class of persons like these here spoteof, k they could not make any treaties with them. (Hec.) In the Bth paragraph again he read, «• If certain Natives will not give up plunder they hwiit** should we bring the calamities of war on the whole UJIIW Maories are not a separate nation from ourselves. « " ■" better to take precautious to prevent the repetition of ""P™" dering. and to bring any person found with stolen P"*"?" trUI whenever he may be caught, rather than to «•"•"" troublesome individuals, whom their fellows have no p*™« compelling to do what is right, the cause of involving itsocai and guilty alike in a terrible war. jnfitsar •' I think that a consideration of these *r^™ M ISZ|T that it is better for me to retract from a tedrinir>«lHwWW expressed by the Governmen., rather than to follow&MW»ia which I can see no advantages." If the case of Taranaki was to be settled on mm ments there enunciated, the British nation gU" colonv would be put in a most humiliating PM™*" was the attribute of mercy to forgive, but there*™ demands of justice that codd not be overlooKO. » strict connection with this was the principle of ma* terial responsibility, and he thought he BhoWJ» stand alone after he had read tae next remart. « Despatch from the Governor to the Duke of N««g dated 30th November, 1861. His wrote.—" Under this system there would MjJJ'Jj vernments in the colony, which not only «■■ always aid one another but which «£ act at cross purposes with each other. crisis it is quite impossible that Her "JS ment could be advantageously earned on underig* system. I, therefore, immediately arranged m> «-j my responsible ministers in relation to J»w" in the same manner as upon all otder «««!""'"Taj like manner to act through them in reU *J jg, Native matters. If-any serious difference »"*? between us on these subjects I must, as m «J»"5 resort to other advisers, and appeal, in '*?'«,, General Assembly." This was clear and expim- if for the reasons:-- rt .fi«w»« " Another disadvantage of the system of ««# chiefly responsible for Native affairs is, that ,t that tie wars which may arise under it *£**s»** rightly or wrongly, from the acts of lha British Governrn«t, over whose lature had but very imperfect control; s» that " f defttjbi*!! ficult to call upon that body to find the mean. «»£&# cost of a war, for the origin, continuance, or eonauc it was only in an indirect manner r»P°» M sJ** _.„. in d Mi*" 1 ' "Under the system I have adopted trrs act as mutual checks each upon the o her £**»„** wishes to force on some proceeding which as unjust to the Natives, or as injurious lo rests, it is known to both that the ultiuute tpp** l 0,,w to the General Assembly." rihilUT* 1 This plan certainly threw a greater "J"H%|i the Assembly in regard to the ««pe ,ld 'f u * rt ; B , pe* might bring on. but it would protection to Native interests. *°™> a ° et M ? obliged if the House would put this which it was legitimately 1 * price of ministerial responsibility was to new of the origin, continuance, and S« Were they prepared to undertake this caw* for one, was not. A war had of Her Majesty's sovereignty,'and the protec u Native sabjects must be earned on, Ji> same manner. He wonld now read two «wk & to show the Duke of Newcastle's off««3;2 tion, from a Despatch, dated June stb, K J*^& " I shall not attempt to prescribe the ~Jffl*BK W|! may think ought to be imposed or a/<*P"° • "" tbow ef*s opon you my conviction that. i^ d « ld, % n P nn£ ce««y «* it will be your dnty, while avoiding all unnece toward, men who ctn acarcel, be ***£*SfS& £j rebellion, to take care that neither your owum" to j||B u cessation of hostilities when it arrives, «""' ™ 3 0t alarmeyes of the natives any appearance «%S would be better even to prolong war,' , to end it without producing in the "» ,iv , e ,""™ „ sad ?«*" of our strength as may render peace not temporary oiis, but well-grounded and lasting. ,- f , Be y fiu*^ " If the Maoris acquire that ™*™*%i£?£m Gorrf»* •elves, as I trust and believe they will. ll **^ io eralic!> j* alter their defeat with as much fairness *•*» received before; much will have been dooei jfe*** welfare and harmony of the two race! which inn land." . f(# Sentiments highly honorable to tbe T o #*bo** was only to be made after a defeato f w insulted Her Majesty's flag; and n e h j k Tat»i* upon victory as yet having been game a *j « maka remained in possession ot tne « m countrymen daro not return to their paragraph he wotild read, would Wm.

if this Native policy involving minis- *** w **!«ibilitv was agreed to by the House. In a 26th February, 1862, the Duke saidpe»patci»i tbo| j nl - ornl me of the conccuioni which you ■••BW*?1|/ji«iegiy'» Government, yon do not tell me by hoi* fr*"L . the eotoulsts ire prepared|to meet tboie eoniei. «& for example, to what extent they are ,\oat- ' V to impose on thennelvei additional taiation, or to wifllrt *" ,t»tln*Utt§ to the improvement or the Maoris or aopi*>r ,i, ' e i ,n» future war, or the liquidating the expenies of 2Lf im?. hnor i« now concluded. Nor do you indicate the ttol*"?LViauil •fort v ' nlcn ,he colonl,u »r« prepared to »'?*"_„ defence, and by which they may be enabled mike I" * „..h the military aulitance hitherto afforded them «° dwe «wwe of Great Britain." ~U* »s now in a perfect mist, and did not know at —H* w " t whether the Government was under the *** Ministry or the representative of the p °Sernment (hear). But where the power was bo the responsibility. He could not agree * 9 fthTcolonial Secretary's argument, that it made i SSerence whether they accepted this position or that the col° n y would have t0 P ay M the Bamew*> rnieht have to pay; but when he remembered the . which the inhabitants of the Cape D o«k1 Hope received for many years against the Jfrfan inhabitant of the country, he had no fears Cartful*. But it was one thing to rely on the \™itv of a liberal creditor, and another thing to responsibility of a debt for the payment of T h we were truly not liable. It was a question, wll ' C ver w hether it was possible for them to accept t? wmonsible government at all. There were two tSng parties to the cession of these islands dial Crown, viz., the Crown and the natives, and in S without the consent of the other contract- ■ narty ' the responsibility could not be shifted. a B Xr objection was, that the Maoris were not nresented in the Colonial Government. No middle K 1 ciole existed, he considered, between being British JS3SS a nd representation. He had sometimes thought »hj Maori was in the same position as the apteryx JJJ km) of this country, a bird having only rudinlary wings. It seemed as though, when first being formed bv nature, it had taken to its legs before its wines were finished; and bo the Maori, who by tho tHiatv of Waitangi, was to be made into a British InMect. fonnd the operation so tedious, that he ran away Sit was finished (laughter). The object of this native policy appeared to be to complete the operation. He entirely agreed with the member for Ellesmere, that the Maoris ought to be represented—not, however, by mixing with them in tnat House, but by the constitution of a new Province, of which they might make the King, which was so offensive to them, the Superintendent; and a Superintendent being, as ho mentioned the olher day, one of the most harmless creatures in existence, they would thus take all the sting ont of the King movement (laughter). The object ot thU Native policy was to educate the Natives to take a part in the management of their own affairs. They were all agreed upon that object, but they differed as to the means to be employed. A philosopher named Lord Monboddo, who held the development theory, believed that man was simply a monkey with his tail robbed off from the habit of sitting on chairs (laughter) The theory had been revived by Dr. Darwin, who was of opinion that they had only to put an animal into the slate of things favourable for tho production of certain characteristics, and it would acquire those characteristics. Thus, a fowl put upon the water, and kept alive for a sufficient length of time, would become a duck (great laughter). He did not vouch for the truth of that, but he was of opinion that to educate the mind of a man, they must put him in such circumstances that he would have within reach of him all the means of education, and if they only put one class of means before him they would give him an improper education. The object of the policy proposed was excellent—to fit the Maori for self-government; but it would not attain that end. Government should be a terror to evil doers. The strictest justice must be combined with the most benevolent and kindest mercy. | Looking over the printed papers some time ago, he was constantly worried by the words " tribal rights;" but tribal responsibility was never mentioned. Surely [ where there were privileges there must be duties. Now, he said, the execution of justice should be against them as a tribe if they could not get at them as individuals. (Loud cries of disapprobation, and some few cheers.) Justice to our fellow subjects demanded the restitution by those tribes of the stolen property, and compensation for the wrongs they had committed against British subjects. The hon. member (Mr. Richardson) then proceeded to give some instances in his own recollection, as a military man, of the good that had resulted from carrying out these principles in India. In conclusion, he asked the Colonial Secretary to inform the House whether it was me intention of the ruling authorities to make roads through the Taranaki tribes. If an affirmative answer could be given to this (without prejudice to military considerations), he would congratulate his Taranaki friends that at length the day star had appeared, the cloads which had so long hung over them were being dissipated, and the announcement, while not injuring the Maories, would give to every member of this House the most cordial gratification. Question put and carried without discussion. Major RICHARDSON then moved, "That this House should be informed, as far as may be consistent with any present or prospective military arrangements, what measures are proposed to be adopted towards enabling the owners of property in the Tataraimaka block in the Province of Taranaki, to return to their homes from which they are still debarred by the unsatisfactory nature of the relations arising between the Government and Her Majesty's Native subjects residing to the southward of that Province." Mr.COLENSO again seconded the motion. The hon, Mr. FOX then put it to the Speaker whether the hon. mover waa pursuing a proper course in putting these motions on the paper in their present form, and then at the close of his speech putting u categorical question to him (Mr. Fox), placing him in an unfair position. The hon. member ought to select whether he would proceed with these as motions or as questions, to which he (Mr. Fox) could give a categorical answer without being placed in tho position of not being able to reply in any debato that might ensue. The SPEAKER said the hon. member for Otago had simply moved the two motions as they appeared on the paper, and if he had put any question in tho couree of his speech, it rested entirely with the hon. Colonial Secretary whether to answer it or not. ' Major RICHARDSON said that his question was simply put in the same generous manner as he would have expected the hon. gentleman to put a question to him. Believing that the House would have debated the subject before affirming the proposition, he was desirous togive the Colonial Secretary an opportunity of explaining these doubtful points, so that the House might be in possession of the facts of tho case before commencing a debate. Mr. GILLIES thought the Government would be scarcely treating the House in a fair way to let these motions pass without remark, and decline to answer the questions of the hon. member, especially as they had been so long on the paper. Mr. FITZGERALD thought that rather hard measures had been dealt out to his hon. friends on the Treasury bench. Ministers had not opposed the motion—[Mr. Fox: Hear, hear.]—and he supposed it would be for their consideration to give in such manner and time as they thought best that information which they had permitted the House to say it was desirable should be given. It was rather hard to expect the Colonial Secretary to make a speech at the beginning of a debate in which he would have no opportunity to reply. When his hon. friend the Colonial Secretary threw his glove down last night, no one would take it up, and now his hon. friend of Dnncdin imitated his example and it was likewise declined to be taken up by the other side. After a little more sparring and having pondered the arguments of both speakers, they would on both Bides bo prepared with oost excellent, satisfactory and voluminous answers to all those arguments. Mr. WELD did not wish to enter now into the questions which the House would have to deal with hereafter, but it appeared to him necessary to say a f ew words on a subject that had been alluded to last m ght, viz., whether it would have been right or wrong to occupy the Tataraimaka block, and proceed to operations against the Ngatiruanui and Taranaki tribes «that time. The force then at the disposal of tho Government was not sufficient to carry on tho war in tw « places with any prospect of success; it was determined to place all the disposable force in a position to «ai at once with the head and front of the rebellionknowing that on the submission of Waikato the submission of the Ngatiruanui aud other southern tribes would depend. He wished now to point out that, before discussing Native affairs at all, it was absolutely necessary the House should know exactly the position » which Ministers stood towards the Governor (hear, "«"■)• These loose understandings were of no use; 'he hon. member for Ellosmere would know what hud come of them in years gono by. Two years ago he (Mr. W.) had moved a resolution which the House had adopted by 22 to 10, to the effect that under exist,n 8 circumstances it would be undesirable to disturb the existing relations between tho Governor and Ministers; but circumstances had altered since then; »new era was commencing in which their next step forward would bo an important one,—one that they must consider as calmly and independently as they could without making it a party question. It would to most advisable for the Ministers to proceed by a "solution fixing tho status of the Government and askH the approval oi the House on whatever plan my g$M hm arrived, nt. Tho prinoipl* of P»HTO?S fwiroww M»g m tto afl-toww wottto be M

ffiK. tf? House, if they did not on this occasion before asking an assent to their scheme oriSative Pohcy, come down and state the basis of the relations between m and Qovetnm m "jy was to be carried out, they would derogate from that Er« W^ Ch ' might be the lults of form" Ministers they could not be accused of havin K neglected the duty of upholding. What struck him moS was the unreality of everything, the want of truth about the present position of affairs. Whichever way or rSr ma ? ministerial responsibility or confidence in the Governor,-His Excellency, liki wl 8 ? wouldhave « clear course before Inland between these two courses there was no medium! If there were, he hoped the hon. member at the head of the Government would point it out to the House in unmistakeable black and white. If he (Mr. W ) could M £L JU t tice u and a £ rospect of ite beiu S any benefit w tno country he would entertain it cordially, but till that preliminary was discussed he deprecated any discussion on Native affairs. ' The hon. Mr. CROSBIE WARD desired to point out what the circumstances at the present moment actually were, and in so doing ho would endeavour to Keep as clear as possible of the large questions of Native policy. During the last session, when discussing the Native question as it affected the Land Purchase department, certain resolutions were come to on the motion of the member for Wallace, one of which dealt with the quostion at issue and was the only resolution of this House by which Ministers could get a clear and steady light to shape their course. Undoubtedly the position of Ministers towards the Governor was different now from what it had been at that time, but it was altered entirely in accordance with the expressed wish of the House and no further. In clear despatch to the Duke of Newcastle on this subject the Governor B t »?• • made up his mind> but nowhere stated that Ministers had accepted his propositions in the IWI. Ministers, evidently must be governed by the will of the House, for they could not by their actions bind it to accept responsibility, nor could they adopt a different stand towards the Governor from that indicated by the House in that resolution which ran as follows:

That any reconstruction of the Land Purchase Department on a satisfactory basis necessarily involves also an entire re-organisation of the political branch of that Service, and that no such re-organisation will be effectual or satisfactory to the country which does not, u u V. U y rec °gnizing and securing to the Governor both the initiative and the decision where Imperial interests are involved, place the conduct of the ordinary business of Native administration under responsibility .0 the Assembly." —That this resolution was applicable to the case was evident, when the circumstauces were considered. It could not be read as referring solely to the Land Purchase Department, because it was known (and was tho reason for passing these resolutions) that the Land Purchase Department then executed almost political action of the Government in Native affairs, to put an ond to which the House adopted these resolutions. The difference in the present position of the Government was simply this, that instead of being double, as it had been, there was now but a single Government. The ordinary business of Native affairs, instead of being transacted by a Native Secretary's Department not responsible to this House, was now conducted by gentlemen selected by this House, chiefly by the Colonial Secretary, who was now in a position to answer all questions about Native affairs, —a power which had never been held by any officer of tne House before (hear, hear). It was quite possible that the gentleman formerly filling the office of Minister for Native Affairs (Mr. Weld) might not recognize that office now, or it was possible it might be a different office comprising a variety of things then considered as forbidden ground, but he would find nowhere that responsibility had been thrown upon tho Colony •, nothing had been done trenching on the reserved points of " the initiative and the decision where Imperial interests are involved." Ministers had taken upon themselves simply the conduct of Native affairs, for which they desired to be responsible to the House; and the question was not what next should be done—a question of too great importance and too delicate a matter to be left to be dealt with in a party spirit. If the House would meet them with the disposition to examine carefully what the Colony ought to do in Native matters, the Government would take the position of leading the House (hear, hear). The Colonial Secretary would undertake to lay before the House resolutions on that important subject,—resolutions not conceived in a hurry, but prepared long ago—resolutions which the Government had by them as a line to mark their whole position in the transaction of business, —resolutions which would indicate to the House the position which the Government had endeavoured to assume in this matter. When the House had declared itself ready to receive these resolutions by disposing of previous questions, the Colonial Secretary would be ready to submit them. Mr. BELL explained the position which was intended to be taken by the resolutions referred to. Sir G. Grey was then expected, and it was intended to explain to him on his arrival that the House would no longer consent to pay irresponsible officers to conduct Native affairs, but would require the administration of ordinary matters to be placed under the control of responsible Ministers. That resolution both in its letter and its spirit had been entirely fulfilled by His Excellency's Ministers as his official experience enabled him to testify. It would probably be more satisfactory to the House and the country now that the relations proposed to exist between the Governor and his Ministers should be reduced to something considerably more definite than was required when in the resolution of last session he proposed that this matter should be laid before the Governor. It had now become necessary to take a new step in the definition of their future course, and he differed (rom the proposal of the Secretary of Crown Lands to take all other questions before this [No, no, from the Ministerial bench.] His opinion of the question was that while Governor Grey was in this Colony it would be perfectly useless to look for or desire complete ministerial responsibility (hear, hear), and if this were the view taken by the House they would be treading on false ground to proceed to any definitions of their intentions on general questions of Native policy, till they had first satisfactorily settled the positions as to responsibility which the Governor and themselves should mutually hold.

Mr. STAFFORD, after complimenting the hon. member for Dunedin (Major Richardson) on his speech, referred to a false impression that had prevailed with reference to part of the Colonial Secretary's remarks, proceeded to remark that Ministers were not only justified but were bound on the face of Mr. Bell's resolution to get rid as far as their advice could do so, of the old Native Department, and to establish in certain ministerial departments the machinery for the direct supervision and administration of Nativo affairs. He should be the last to quarrel with them for carrying out that resolution, but that was now entirely left behind by the greater question of who was to determine what was to be tho Native policy, and he argued that it would bo injurious to enter into the question of the policv itself till they had come to a decision as to what should be tho relations and responsibility of the colony through the Legislature as its mouthpiece, and it again through the responsible Ministers to the Imperial Government with respect to the whole question. In common with the hon. member for Cheviot and the hon. the Postmaster-General, he desired to see so great a constitutional question considered apart from all party feeling and personal considerations. Had all great questions of this nature been considered in that feeling a large portion of the present evils of the colony would have had no existence. Himself and those who generally worked with him would approach this question without any reference to tho person or persons proposing it, but with a view to the fair solution of a great constitutional question between the colony and the mother country. He regretted that tho Colonial Secretary had not on a former occasion made the announcement which the Postmaster-General had just made, and he hoped, considering the great anxiety which must necessarily affect the House, that there would be no unnecessary delay in acting upon it, and that no important question of Native policy would be first proposed, a decision on which might be subscouently found an impediment in tho discussion of this most important of all questions. Before sitting down he must allude to certain statements made by the Col. Secretary last night, which if allowed to go forth to the colony unchallenged would necessarily lead to very false impressions of the actual nature of tho occurrences referred to. He admired the decision and coolness with which tho hon. gentleman had read extracts containing sentiments that certainly appeared to carry out his views, when the very next sentence in the context was the most conclusive argument against them. He felt an intense respect for the hon. gentleman who did so well and so convincingly that ho (Mr. btattorU) was almost convinced himself that tho hon. raomber s rose was irrcputable, and that the documents laid on the tabic were of such a character that to examine them would be to find confirmation in every line; but when the hon. member concluded by expressing entire satisfaction at the present position of affairs, he did think that audacity could hardly Ik> carried to a hieher pitch. Satisfied! satisfied with tho perusal of the documents laid upon the table; satisfied with what had been described as tho very madness of anarchy nervadinz the land, instead of an honest disposition to turn to account its fertility; satisfied by the sweeping condemnation of those who having been sont out to curse their enemies had blessed them altogether; satisfied by a solitary instunco of obedionco to the now 'order of thingsl ' Verily, it wwdcwrtlo they should not expect orach M W WWW m to OlNfftfßM

If they were to glean satisfaction from such occasions as had been given them, »they must be satisfied with very little indeed. The hon. member (Mr. Stafford) then referred to the question of responsibility. It was impossible, he said, to speak of the Native question without referring to the Government, while in other matters his name never appeared. It was conclusive proof he thought of the opinions of tho Home Government on this point that they sent out Sir George Grey (hear, hear). Had they been of opinion that the time was come for the colonial legislature to take tho management of Native affairs they would not have sent him, nor would the Duke of Newcastle have said it was his experience of Native character which induced them to select him in this crisis to conduct the affairs of the colony; but they would have sent some dummy, some mere machine to sign Avarrants and commissions, acts and proclamations presented to him by those having the confidence of the colonists. This he considered was conclusive of the opinion of the Home Government at that time, and he looked in vain for one single expression of opinion by the Secretary of State that the time was come when tho colonists should administer Native affairs; but he did find the most decided hanging back from ceding that position. He found the Duke saying, after quoting a sentence of the Governor's, " You don't tell rae what sacrifices for all these concessions the colony is going to make, and until you do tell me that it would be idle for me to go into the whole question." He (Mr. S.) repudiated the idea that the Ministers on one side and the Governor on the other, could enter into any contract. They might propose but tho Imperial Government on one side and this legislature on the other must decide. In conclusion, as they had yet to consider the whole question in its fundamental relations to the country, and also in many branches of detail in supply, he doubted if any useful result would bo attained if he were to remark upon all the subjects presented to their consideration; not that he imputed to his hon. friend that he had adverted to any unnecessary subject, but his speech was so far unfortunate and so far a departure from ordinary parliamentary usage that in stating the intentions of the Government the hon. member had adverted to subjects which were notoriously matters of argument.

The hon. Mr. FOX expressed his gratification at the manner in which the hon. member had been pleased to patronise the Government, and also at the kind manner in which he had administered lessons as to how the Government ought to have acted. He bowed to the hon. member and kissed the rod. It had made him a wiser and a bettor man (laughter). He was extremely obliged to the hon. member, and hopod that whenever he saw any of the Government transgressing he would condescend to sot them right (laughter). The course he had taken last night of making theso statements on a motion for leave to bring in a Bill arose from a wish to give the House all the information in his power, together with the opportunity of giving the proposals of the Government that friendly criticism which was always beneficial; while ho was desirous of avoiding at this early period of the session, putting any hon. member under the necessity of moving an amendment or taking issue with the Government at that stage; and he had some little right, he thought, to complain of the way in which the House had treated the Government in letting the occasion pass without expressing any opinion; for if hon. members were not prepared to discuss his explanations at once, they might at any rate have movod the adjournment of the debate. Tho Government would not then have been taken by surprise, by an attempt to renew the discussion on the occasion of the present motion. Still less was he prepared to go into a debate on the terms of this motion. His idea was that the hon. member (his motions having been carried) would have put the questions contained in them to which he (Mr. Fox) would have given a categorical answer. He wished the House plainly to understand that there had been no wish on the part of the Government to hold back from a discussion of these questions. On one or two points he had been misunderstood. He had not brought these questions of ministerial responsibility before the House as one that was already settled and did not require the decision of the House, but he had distinctly stated after informing the House of what Ministers had done that this was now the time for the House to affirm or disaffirm what they had done, and argued that it was not desirable very minutely to define the relations that should exist. He would remind the hon. member for Cheviot that it was not very usual to have the relations of Responsible Ministers too exactly defined. Where would the hon. member find any definition of the relations between Her Majesty and the Ministry of England, or of the relations between the Responsible Ministry of this Colony and his Excellency on any other subject than Native affairs? They had, however, in the expectation that the House would in all probability wish the relations on this question to be defined, prepared resolutions which he should be prepared to-morrow to place on the notice paper (hear, hear); and which the House might adopt, reject, or modify. If the hon. mover would to-morrow or at any other day put his questions to him (Mr. F.) he would give him the best answer he possibly could. Motion put and agreed to. The hour of eight being past, the House went to the ORDERS OE TUB DAY. SUPPLY. On motion of the hon. COLONIAL TREASURER the House went into Committee of Supply. The COLONIAL TREASURER then moved—- " That this Committee will recommend the issue of monies from the Public Chest by the Colonial Treasurer in accordance with tho provisions of the Appropriation Act of 1861-62, for a period of three months from the Ist July, 1862." He had intended on this motion to make his financial statement, but was propared, as it seemed to be the wish of the House, to postpone it until tho great question of the relations between the Governor aud the Ministry was settled. The present motion ho explained was simply equivalent to a vote of credit. Motion agreed to. STEAM NAVIGATION BILL. The POSTMASTER-GENERAL moved the second reading of a " Bill to regulate Steam Vessels, and the Boats and Lights to be carried by Sea-going Vessels," remarking that the Bill was a highly necessary one for the protection of life and property as a recent instance had shown. It was simply a practical measure, moulded on the Acts of the neighbouring colonies, which were modelled on the English ones. Bill read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Thursday. The House then returned to the Notices of Motion. CLAIMS OF IMPERIAL GOVERNMENT. Mr. STAFFORD moved " for a Return of the amount claimed from the Colony by the Imperial Government on account of any Military or Militia expenditure in connection with the Native Insurrection, shewing the particulars of tho claim." Motion agreed to. ELECTION PETITIONB' ACT. The COLONIAL SECRETARY obtained leave to introduce " A Bill to amend tho Election Petitions' Act, 1858." Bill read a first time, ordered to be printed, and to be read a second time on Thursday. PRINTING FOR THE SESSION. Mr. DILLON BELL moved that the following resolution of the Library and Printing Committee be adopted :—" That in consequence of the great difficulty experienced in getting printed the papers required for the House, the form of motion for printing ought to be varied according to the urgency of the requirements : the usual form being retained tor papers merely needed as ordinary records for the Appendix to the Votes and Proceedings, the printing of which may be postponed by the Clerk at his discretion, until after the close of the Session ; while for papers required for immediate use, the form of motion should be, that tho paper be' printed forthwith.'" Motion agreed to GOLD FIELDS COMMITTEE. On the motion of the POSTMASTER-GENERAL, the names ot Mr. Dick and Mr. Domett wore added to the Gold Fields Committee. The House then adjourned at about nine o'clock. THURSDAY, JULY 24th. Tho Speaker took the chair at twelve o'clock. PETITIONS. Mr. DOMETT presented two petitions from George Robertson, Nelson, a New Zealand Company land claimant. OUT OF ORDER. The SPEAKER called tho attention of the House to an irregularity which he had Buffered to pass last night, the delinquent being a young member. In future it would bo advisable to enforce the rule of the House of Commons, that no reference should be made to a preceding debate of the same session. RETURNS. Mr. STAFFORD moved,— 1. For a Return of all unauthorised Expenditure of the General Government during t\n> year ended the 30th June, 1862, distinguishing the dates of such Expenditme. 2. For a Return of the amounts expended out ot toe War Loan of £lso,ooo~in oontinuMiou of Papers presented to the House. 3. For copies of all Reports ot Offioom of the Lana

of Native Title,—in continuation of Papers presented to the Housr last Session. Sessional Papers C. No. 1." _4. lor a Return ot the number of acres over which the j T j l ' B k* B nt ' en extinguished during the.year ended the 3<>tb June 1862*-tbe amount paid, or agreed 10 be paid, for the same—and the quantity aurvejed during the same period—in continuation of Papers pres»nted no the House last Session. Sessional Papers C, N0.3. * 5. For a Return of the names of all persons employed in or by the bind Put chase Department during the year ended the 30th June, 1862,—in continuation of Papers presented to the the House last Session. Sessional Papers C, No. 4. 6. For a Return of all persons employed in the administration of Native Atf.irs,—capacity in wbioh employed—and the silary of each. 7. For a Return of all sums paid or presents made to Natives during the year 3()ih June, 18S2, stating the dates of payment and the names of the persona to whom the payments and presents were made, Motion agroed to. ELECTION OF SUPERINTENDENTS. Mr. WATT, in obedience to the wishes of several gentlemen, postponed the following motion, of which he had given notice, till to-morrow: "That, in the opinion of this House, some alteration of the elective character of the Office of Superintendent, and the term of office, is necessary." SECRET COMMITTEE'S MINUTES. Mr. Dillon BELL moved, " That the Rcpport of the Joint Committee of both Houses on the Minutes of the Secret Committee of last Session be adopted. Mr. FITZGERALD moved, as an amendment, the addition of the words, " But that none of the records of tho said Secret Committee be at any time printed or made public, except by leave of this House and of the Legislative Council." After some discussion, the motion as amended was agreed to, and the Chairman of Committees directod to inform the Legislative Council of the resolution come to. LIBRARY AND PRINTING COMMITTEE. Mr. Dillon BELL moved, "That the following resolutions of the Library and Printing Committee be ordered to be considered in Committee of Supply,— 1. That in the opinion of this Committee the Books lost in the White Swan sboultl be replaced. 2. That in the opinion of this Committee the ordinary rote for the Library should be lorgely increased this Session. 3. That in the opinion of this Committee, the fees reeeived by the Clerk for Private Bills (including those already paid)should be made applicable to the increise of the Library. Motion agreed to. ' SUPPLY. The resolution agreed upon on Wednesday in Committee of Supply was read a second time and adopted. Committee of Supply was postponed till Tuesday. APPOINTMENT OP AUDIT COMMITTEE.

The House, according to order, proceeded to ballot for three members to form an Audit Committee. Messrs. J. C. Richmond, Fitzherbcrt, and O'Rorke were declared elected, having respectively 16,10, and 9 votes. CROWN LANDS BILL IN COMMITTEE. The Crown Lands Bill was further considered in Committee, and progress reported. CROWN GRANTS BILL. This Bill was also further considered in Committee, and reported with amendments, which were ordered to bo considered to-morrow. ELECTION PETITIONS BILL. On the motion of Mr. Fox, a Bill to amend the Election Petitions Act, 1858, was read a second time, passed the Committee without amendment, read a third time, and passed, and ordered to be transmitted to the Legislative Council. MESSAGE FRO* THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. A Message was received from the Legislative Council, transmitting the Minutes of the Secret Committee of last session on Military Defence. THE STEAM NAVIGATION BILL. This Bill was considered in Committee, and ordered to be further considered to-morrow. The House adjourned at quarter to five o'clock. FRIDAY, JULY 25th, 1862. The SPEAKER took the chair at 12 o'clock. Ministerial Crisis. colonial responsibility in native affairs. The Hon. Mr. FOX, pursuant to notice, rose to move the adoption of the following resolution:—"That while this House disclaims, on the part of the colony, the exclusive responsibility of the cost of educating, civilizing, and governing the Native Race; while it equally disclaims liability for the principal share of the cost of suppressing insurrections of a people over whom the Imperial Government has never practically established the authority of law: it will at all times cheerfully recognize its duty to co-operate to the extent of its ability and means with Great Britain for the attainment of these objects, so essential to the welfare of the colony; and in conformity with these views it is of opinion that the interests of the Imperial Government and of the Natives themselves, as well as of the colony, require that (reserving to the Governor both the initiation and the decision of questions where Imperial interests are concerned,) the ordinary conduct of Native affairs should be placed under the administration of Responsible Ministers."—ln bringing this notice before the House he had little to add to the arguments which he had used on a previous occasion, when he touched on all the points of the case and referred to nearly all the documentary matter which hal passed between His Excellency, the Ministry, and the Home Government upon the subject. But though he could not himself add anything new, he hoped that other hon. members, whether differing from or agreeing with the Government, would be able to throw some additional light on the subject by adducing arguments which might have escaped himself. He stated on that occasion what had been the course pursued by Ministers down to this period, under the emergency of its being obliged to adjust some relations with His Excellency immediately on his arrival and not having the opportunity to consult with the House as to what they should do. He also said, they had acted in accordance with a resolution passed by this House shortly before its prorogation for the express purpose of indicating its mind to the Ministers and the expected Governor in reference to the system to be adopted. He had also then intimated that what they had done was only as a temporary arrangement which under the circumstances they were obliged to make; and that the time was now come when if the House wished to alter the practical relations established, it was in their power to do so, though for his own part he thought there was no necessity for it and that it would be wrong to define minutely the relation to exist between the Governor and his Ministers. There was always danger in laying down positive and independent niles, in circumstances that must vary, that they would find themselves involved in some difficulty arising from defining too nicely the position of the " high contracting parties." Tne House, he thought, should simply lay down somo broad, general, and fundamental principle (as in the resolution before them) which should be the ruling principle in the relations existing between His Excellency and Ministers. If they attempted to go beyond that and define too closely what was to be tho Imperial administration and what the ministerial, thoy would involve themselves in difficulties which no logical acumen or use of tho dictionary would enable them to escape. This resolution was divided into two portions, the latter of which affirmed generally what thoy desired their privileges to bo in tho management of Native affairs, and tho former disclaimed an unduo amount of liability in respect of the responsibility assumed by them, which, in the absence of any such precaution, they might find themselves involved in by the decision of the Home Government. Had they been in an entiroly clear and unembarrassed position in which they might have proceeded without any impediments raised by past events, ho should have been inclined to say that, coming as we did to New Zealand, adopted into the country by its previous owners as fellow inhabitants with them for the future, we should have been bound on every ground of generosity and christian morality to take upon ourselves, had our resources been such as to admit of it, the whole duty of civilizing and educating the Native people (hear, hear) ; and had the full power been conferred on our institutions from tho first wo should have been bound also to provide for internal self-defence and for the suppression of any disturbance that might ariso among the Native raco. But our position now was entirely different. A long series of years having passed in which they had had no sort of influence in the management of tho Natives and in consequence of the untoward turn which events had taken for some years past when the government of the country had, if any, but a limited power of interference, he considered the position of tho colony to be most materially altered in reference to both of these subjects—civilizing and governing the Natives, and suppressing any insurrections that might arise or have arisen from what was practically and substantially the exercise of Imperial power. Before they proceeded then to assume tor the future a greater degree of responsibility and a greater amount of power in these matters it was desirable they should disclaim to a certain extent the responsibility which, had circumstances happoned otherwise, ho conceived would have rested on us, Tbpreforo, in this resolution he affirmed that the colony disclaimed tho explosive responsibility not BitegM ity) in vwHw fte»i wmm trows m

by what he had said the other night that he did not entirely disclaim it, as he proposed they should pay one-half the cost of carrying oat these plans. But id reference to military affairs they did disclaim at all events,the principal share of the cost of these insurrections. What that principal share might amount to under existing circumstances, the colony having but recently escaped from a state of actual insurrection and a condition ot absolute peace not being fully established, the Government could not define, but there was not much probability of the Home Government endeavouring 10 impose on the colony any larger burden than that which past negotiations had imposed, namely, liability to pay a certain proportion of the cost of each soldier and a certain proportion of the expenses of local defence, militia, blockhouses, and transport of troops, &c, which would altogether amount to a small proportion of the enormous expenditure which the Home Government, with the greatest liberality, had involved itself in on our account; out of a total of a million our share being less than £IOO,OOO at the present time. But while disclaiming more than a fair proportion of the pecuniary liability, he proposed the House should express (as it had done much stronger by a resolution last session with reference to men and money for carrying on the war) that the colony " will at all times cheerfully recognize its duty to co-operate to the extent of its ability and means with Great Britain for the attainment of these objects so essential to the welfare of the colony." Without that, they migh be charged with assuming a somewhat disrespectful and harsh attitude to tbe Imperial Government, —it might be said that they were anxious to throw off all liability and were not acting in that becoming spirit of liberality which the treatment of the Home Government ought naturally to evoke. He now came to the practical part of the question, on which the House should distinctly make up its mind. The expressions which the Government had used in this resolution were almost identical with those that formed the substance of the resolution passed last session. The House having once expressed a unanimous opinion upon that question would not now, he thought, be inclined to alter in any material respect the relations at that time indicated. There was in fact no means ot carrying on the Government of the colony as a whole, other than by ministerial responsibility in Native affairs, at all events to some extent. He did not affect to say they could possess that privilege to precisely the same extent as with reference to affairs simply European, because in almost every Native question there were many imperial and military considerations which it would be neither right nor prudent nor practically possible, the ministry of the colony should have sole control over, and it followed as a matter of course that His Excellency must have greater power than that which he exercised in other matters. He had therefore introduced into the resolution an exception to that effect. As he had intimated to the House a few nights ago he could see no other way in which the Government of the colony could at this time be carried on. Native and European interests had become in this Island so intermixed and interlaced that in practice it was utterly impossible to govern them by separate administration. (Hear, hear.) If they handed over to the Governor the absolute power over all Native administration, they would so fetter the Responsible Ministers in European affairs that they could not possibly carry on the business of the country. Almost from the first hour, opportunities of what were called dead-locks would necessarily occur. It would be easy for lion, members to conceive instances which might occur under another Governor and which from the first it would be the duty of Ministers to refuse to co-operate in. Suppose another Governor having the sole administration of Native affairs and another responsible Ministry conducting all European affairs, and the former conceived it his duty to declare a Native Province within this Province of Wellington, consisting of all lands over which the Native title had not been extinguished, and were then to call on his ltesponsible Ministers (acting as his agents, though not responsible) to carry his plan into execution. They would doubtless immediately begin to consider, as they would be bound to do, being responsible servants of this House, t what effect this measure would ]have on the interests of the Europeans whose interests they were bound to protect, and finding that such a step would necessarily throw an impassable barrier in the way of colonization —they would tell His Excellency that they could not recommend him to take such a step and would decline to cany it out. And this was only one of innumerable instances that would every day be arising in which the the interests of Europeans would be conflicting with the plans which the Governor in his non-responsible capacity might wish to carry out. It would not be possible to establish a state of things of this nature—that His Excellency should make use of his responsible Ministers to carry out such operations in Native affairs as they had no hand in advising,—converting them into mere clerks and instruments. Either that must follow or they must revert to that system which both House and the Governor had condemned, —to that double government in which His Excellency had non-responsible advisers for Native affairs and a nonresponsible department not under the control of Ministers, to carry ont his directions. There would be no middle course. The first position was one that the present Ministry would not allow themselves to be placed in, and the second he did not believe the House would consent to. He therefore saw no escape from their present position if they were to have responsible government in the colony at all, except to accept some large share of that responsibility which attached to. accepting relations on Native affairs in a great degree similar to the relations existing on other affairs; excepting of course the reservation of the " initiation and the decision of questions where Imperial interests are concerned." There was also another difficulty which he had adverted to on the previous occasion, and one which he saw no means of escape from but by continuing the system of responsibility in Native affairs; and that was that the whole of the legislation under which His Excellency and Ministers proposed to carry out the new Native policy, rested upon the basis of certain Acts passed by this Legislature in 1858, which prescribed that everything done under them should be done by the Governorin Council, i.e., by the Governor with the advice and consent oj his responsible advisers, which did not mean that they were to do what the Governor told them. Practically and substantially that legislation of 1858 had altered in the most material point the Ministerial Memorandum of 1856, which prescribed that His Excellency should not be bound to take the advice of his responsible ministers, but when he differed from them he would refer the question to the Home Government and in the meantime carry ont what he thought proper by the Native Department. But the legislation of 1858 prescribed that His Excellency should only act under them by the advice of his Ministers, and from that time, though it had passed without observation, the position of the Ministers with respect to Native affairs had been most materially altered, —they had incurred a degree of responsibility, and the Home Government might say they had, by that legislatiou rendered the colony liable. These then being the general views of the Government on this question, the resolution proposed has itself sufficiently expressed all that was necessary. He should not trouble the House much further, but would just inquire, supposing they passed this resolution what the probabilities were that it would meet with the concurrence of the other " high contracting parties"; what probability that His Excellency would be prepared to enter into such relations, and the Imperial Government to confirm the position. It would be unbecoming in him at the present stage of proceedings to express before hand what he might suppose from personal communication, what His Excellency's views would be, but he was perfectly at liberty to refer to papers on the table of the House in which His Excellency had authorized the publication of the sentiments he had expressed on this point. In the despatch he had alluded to the other night, dated Nov. 30th, 1861, His Excellency thus expressed himself. —

3, The Ministers in their Memorandum state this in the following language : " The result Is, that while on all other subjects the Responsible Ministers are the sole advisers of the Governor, and exercise the entire executive functions of the Government; on Native affairs, the Governor has, in addition to his Ministers, another adviser—his Native Secretary—who is not a responsible Minister, nor under the control of responsible Ministers, but who exercises (subject only to instructions from the Governor himself) all the executive functions of Government in relation to Native affairs." 4. Under this system there would be two Governments in the Colony, which not only would not always aid one another, but which would sometimes act at cross purposes with each other. 5. At the present crisis it is quite impossible that Her Majesty's Government could be advantageously carried on under such a system. I therefore immediately arranged to consult my Responsible Ministers in relation to Native affairs in the same manner as upon all other subjects, and in like manner to act through them in relation to all Native matters. If any serious difference takes place between us upon these subjects, I must, as in other cases, resort to other advisers, and appeal in fact to the General Assembly. 6. Your Grace will, I have uo doubt, inform me if you wish me to diieontinue this arrangement; but I think it would be well to leave it permanently in operation until difficulties arise under it, which I do not see any probability of. 7. If I can carry out the arrangements contemplated for introducing a machinery of local self-government into all the Native districts, but few serious questions are likely afterwards to arise between the Natives and the European Legislature, and I hope that but few more troubles will then take place with the Natives of this country. If these favorable anticipations prove correct, the system 1 propose to act on. will certainly work well, ft, recently, 1 would remain Your Grace, that that party in the Genera] Assembly which may be said to have disapproved of war with the* Natives if it could he avoided, proved the itfwgtpt i w\ I rbinM is feetur i» slew Hut fall mWm*

in the General Alterably which by its proceeding* Www* the , Native laea it ha*, I think, fairly merited, rather thaa totvim , an unobserved distrust ia it. Any attempt to set up either the Governor or any special body between the Native* and the General Alterably at a protective power for the Native* again* the presumed hostility of that body, will, I fear, produce a* ill effect upon the Native mind, a* making them regard the Assembly as their admitted natural enemies; whilst it will per. hant create in the minds of the General Assembly some prejudice againit the Natives and against what may be done for them, and a carelessness for their interests, with the protection of which the Assembly would be in no way charged. —Next, in reference to the views of the Imperial Government. It had been said by an hon. member that he could ice no decided expression of opinion on the part of the Home Government, that he could not perceive any response by the Duke of Newcastle to thif proposition of the Governor, by rather the contrary. Now the only despatch there was upon the subject, hon. members would perceive if they looked into it, was written solely with a view to the financial stats of the question, and that His Grace left the ministerial question on the one side for the moment, because, as he said he was not yet informed what sacrifices (meaning pecuniary) the colonists were prepared to make for these concessions. But in the meantime, though it was not from the despatch of the Duke of Newcastle, they had an intimation of what was the opinion of Her Majesty's Government on the question, given by the Under Secretary for the Colonies in the House of Commons, to the following effect: " Speaking with reserve in the absence of information from Sir G. Grey, he confessed it was his opinion that it would be absolutely necessary to hand over the administration of afiairs to the Ministers possessing the confidence of the New Zealand Legislature"; and two days afterwards he said u One part of the plan he (Mr. Fortescue) approved, and it was an essential part of it, was that the action of the popular Government of New Zealand should embrace tho management of Native affairs. The Governor had transferred these duties to the responsible department and he was now acting in regard to Native afiairs as in other matters."

Mr. STAFFORD inquired if the hon. member was reading from the Times or the Home News, as the report in the former was more at fall and contained several material qualifications. The hon. Mr. FOX believed the reports in the Home News were often more correct than in the Times; not being so hastily got up. Should this House arrive at the conclusion that it was desirable to adopt this resolution there was little fear that it would not become the basis of arrangements between the high contracting parties. He would not however detain the House any longer. He had placed this resolution before it as embodying the deliberate opinion of Hit Excellency's Advisers as to the basis on which for some years to coma it was desirable the government of the country should be conducted. It had been the subject of very grave and deliberate consideration, and there was absolutely no difference of opinion on it amongst the different members of the Ministry. He begged to move the resolution standing in his name. The Hon. R. WOOD seconed the motion pro forma, Mr. FITZGERALD hoped the House would not assent to this resolution, for he considered it a great blow to the power, dignity, and authority of this Houso. (Hear.) He had pondered the resolution well, but was totally unable to ascertain what was the real proposition to which the Colonial Secretary proposed to pledge the House. (Hear, hear.) It reminded him of the reason why Don Quixote admired the writings of a certain author, "for the beautiful perplexity of his expressions:" (a laugh) and though he had listened with great attention to the hon. gentleman's speech he had not had his ideas very much cleared as to what the House was wanted to assert. Assuming that where thß responsibility went the cost would follow, this resolution, he held, contained two opposite and extraordinary proportions. The whole difficulty into which the House had got originated from an unfortunate memorandum (of which the present Attorney-General was guilty) between the first responsible Ministry and Governor Gore Browne on the relations that then subsisted between them; and it must be a matter of the greatest congratulation to his hon. friend the Attorney-General—of whose abilities he bad the greatest admiration, and with whom he agreed on most questions—that, by the change of cuv cumstances in this Colony, he was enabled to form, part of an administration to get rid of the memorandum of which he was the original author. (Laughter.) It was, however, a matter of supreme indifference to the House what relations might exist between His Excellency and the gentlemen on that bench; it was the Governor, the Executive Government as a whole, that they wanted to make responsible to the House, and they had no right to look at the private understanding between the Ministers and the Government. The Colony was getting into a wrong and inconvenient practice of publishing the private memoranda of the different members of the Government to His Excellency. He nerer heard of such a thing elsewhere. It was from that bench they expected to hear the opinions of Ministers, and they could place far less reliance on memoranda drawn up with a particular view than on cross-examination, as it were, in the witness-box. But, make what memoranda they would, or pass what resolutions they pleased, this House had no power whatsoever for themselves, or on the part of their constituents and their successors in this House, to divest the House ot any portion of its authority to hold the Government and the Colony responsible for its actions. What would be the practical result, if there were a serious difference between the Government and the House? If the Government persisted in any course which they all thought wrong, they would cut off the means of mischief by stopping the supplier. The House must come to feel that this authority belonged to it, and all these resolutions that failed to recognize that truth simply showed how forgetful they were of the authority they possessed, but from some temporary emergency did not think fit to exercise. He should oppose this resolution, without moving any amendment, for on so serious a question it would not be right to pledge the House to any opinion that had not been carefully considered. It was quite apparent that this House was in a state of party and political anarchy (a laugh); so many modes of viewing • question, so many different interests at work, that he did not believe if they hurried the House into a motion of this question that they would obtain that thoughtful assent which must be given if the resolution was to be of any use whatever. The feeling of many was this—that they did not know what the result might be in throwing enormous expenditure on the Colony. They came to consider the resolution without free minds. They saw hanging over their heads a great expenditure, and said to themselves " We will not declare our Constitutional position for fear that it should let us in for a money expenditure the end of which we don't exactly see." Now, he should wish the House to keep these two questions absolutely distinct. They should assume that the House would have absolute, complete, and entire responsibility, and recognise that its duty was to conduct the whole government of the Colony within these islands. They should recognize the charge of the Native race as a peculiar trust left to the colonists to manage to the best of their ability. Having then taken upon themselves that responsibility which had been given them by Providence, and which they could not throw from their shoulders, except by an act of baseness which English communities did not often exhibit, it would then be the time for them to go to the Home Government and say, " Admitting our will and desire to manage these affairs as they ought to be managed, this Colony is not now either strong enough, populous, or wealthy enough, to fulfil the duty according to its own sense of the manner in which ft ought to be fulfilled." The Home Government, in that generosity which it had always exhibited to colonies in difficulties, would meet them with the,mott ample assistance they could possibly require. But, if they once gave up these principles, and acted upon the principles of the resolution before the House, they would leave this Colony exactly in the same state ae before this House was constituted—a state in which they did not know from day to day who was responsible for one thing, and who for another. He did not care whether the Government was administered by Ministers or not, so long as it was responsible to this House. This resolution (begging the whole question of whether Native interests were Imperial interests or not) would pledge the House to the same state by indecision and infirmity of purpose, which had characterised every debate which had taken place on Native afiairs. Let the two propositions be placed before the House to reject all responsibility on Native affairs, and subscribe as a matter of generosity as much as they could afford for the Governor to do as he liked with; or to take all the responsibility. They would then get at the real opinion of the House on the subject. But, if they determined to have no responsibility in the matter, that question should have been considered before this Assembly was called into existence. They should not have been placed in the position of acting a farce; but ; Native districts should have been marked off and placed under a separate Government There was no , safe standing ground between the two propositionstake the whole responsibility or draw a strong line of demarcation. In conclusion, he hoped the House would pause before passing this resolution, not in any spirit of hostility to his hon. friends on the Treasury bench, with whose Native policy he almost entirely agreed, but because, as they will admit, they had brought forward this resolution not so much in accordance with what they thought right and necessary, as upon mere casual remarks dropped in the House oa the subject. He should vote against the resolution, with the intention of proposing on a future day something to indicate the real position of JJig Excelleiuij'i 'responsible advisers. "'"'"* f Mr< mooriichjse tb „ Jfowlutten «wmii4

i to'kim tomean,.are we prepared to accept «=p f ? ta J°" Bhip'or not; for he found no/definition of what tto re., ponsibilitv of Ministers ! indicated meant. He agreed with the member /or Ellesmere that pectin ary with this and alfothcr questions upon carefully ascertained and immutable principles, Taking all circumstances in account, an absolute Dictatorship would not be an .admirable state of things.' Grantuig that the individual,nlaced in such a position was clothed with allthenccessary.quaUfication.adictatorship mighty under some circumstances, be a very useful thing.. But their constituents would like them to inquire as|to the amouritiof cost, and how it was toba borne. The iniliaa system the ultimate value of which, to the colony, could not at this time be ascertained, might be "regarded as having a tendency to commit thocqlony to ' a bastard system of responsibility in Native affairs. If thij papers before the House, intituled Sir George Grey s plan, wore to'be taken as reliably expressing the opinion of the Government, be was bound to give an unqualified .disapproval of the process intended to be employed in curing the disorder at present existing among tho natives'.. He thought it was no plan at all. lhoso papers did express a desire on the part of his Excellency* to appoint a certain number of officers—civil judges '4-wbose chief recommendation would lay in tho fact of their being military men accustomed to, command and 'amenable to discipline,—ready to obey ordors. This, , was. an irreconcilcable and alarming departure from the principles of Constitutional Government; but in fact as he said before there was no plan at all; tho plan "was in tho breast of the Dictator;—the Governor himself was the plan (hear). But if Providence wero to remove him, or the crown translate him to another Go- ' vernment, what would become of tho " plan" then V They would have another man coming with an equal desire perhaps to do justice to his position but with an entirely different plan. There was in fact no native policy at all before them now.' This resolution bore a striking admiubtrative sympathy with the administration of a former Ministry in the year 18C0, when ho was much perplexed in the.endeavour tu elicit from them some '.plan, some.system of policy, but utterly failed. There were vague resolutions enough but no distinct plan: tho samo disinclination to define a system of responsibility. He had sufficient respect for the Native intcllee t that mere assurance of good will without some certainty of its being carried into practice would 'bo very contemptuously received by the Maoris. He hoped his hon. friends would acquaint him of any desire .to embarrass them iu their attempt to administer native affairs, but he was bound to warn them thatthoy would not get any support from him, without he saw a disclosure of something amounting to a plau. It might bo objected that there were weighty and grave reasons why their plans, in the present posture of native affairs should not be published; but it was due to the Natives, Ithat tho House, accepting the partial responsibility laid down in this resolution, should at any raw go the length of compelling Ministers to, devise and publish—for the information of the natives and for the safety "qf.the legislature—a system of administration, which could be inherited by His Excellency's successor and carried out by the gentlemen at present administering tho. affairs of tho colony and their successors. Tho most useful inquiry they could make at this stage was to ascertain what the Maori was (a laugh); to convince themselves that ho was really a man His (Mr. M's) limited acquaintance with native affaire had convinced 1; ira of this, and consequently that a great mistake had been made by all former Governments iu regarding him as a child (hear hear). They had talked to him 'in the language of tho nursery, ns inconsistent a thing 'as' would be the nursemaid so addressing the master of ttie house. In perusing the mass of native documents, 1.0 (Mr. M.) had been very much confirmed in his respect for tho Maori intellect—interviews are described between native statesmeu and very distinguished Europeans, and he was bound to say that tho natives had been the victors in debate—had the pull most completely. Events at Taranaki had proved that physically the" native was our equal; and of their intellect those who had tho teaching of them gave a good accountthat their intellect was capable of a high degree of culture. . They were almost a match for European skill in debate even now, could reason closely and conclusively. He would tell them wat was necessary, —in the first place to have an accurately defined system for the Government of Native affairs, as conclusive as that which governed Her Majesty's judges on the bench. Such system being established they wanted men who were prepared to devote every energy and ability to carrying it out. This inducement of the native to accept the authority of law, must be the work of a civil missionary; nothing would be done unless by men who would devote themselves to the task with the steady, quiet and determined enthusiasm of a civil missionary ,(hear, hear). If hon. members would accept this conclusion, the expense would be very trifling, and His Excellency's Ministers would shortly be justified in advising the Governor to send away the whole of the expensive army now eating up the resources of both Europeans and Maories. At a comparatively small expense the f'uetions of that army might be fulfilled by a civil army of tho native race, —an army of native .policemen, and next session they might have the most .influential nobility of tho native race seated in the legislature, and in a short time property through the 'whole of the native tribes individualized. He warned the House of the great danger of accepting such a bastard piece of responsibility as was, offered to them in this resolution. He had long been sensible that there was a great rottenness in the management of* native affairs and had considered it earnestly. It had been impossible for late administrations not. to be involuntary party to the continuance of a state of things induced by the imperfections of preceding administrations and the rottenness of a former policy; but an opportunity had now arisen for effecting a change, and he urged upon the House to seize this opportunity of endeavouring to effect a radical change in the administration of native affairs. He would echo what had been said by the member for Ellesmere; he had no hostility to His Excellency's present advisers. So far from seeing any i advantage in a change of Ministers just now, fie' almost concluded that a change, would not assist His Excollcncy's present endeavours, his disposition to improve the condition of things among the natives; but if he (Ityr.-Mr) saw a determination on the part of Ministers to.'abide by such undefined pmposc, tu amuse the House by .throwing down such bald resolutions as this, he should at all times feel it his duty to protest, and if another Ministry should offer to accept a lino more in accordance with his own individual opinion of corr.se he should support it. Mr. O'NEILL said, he could not agree with the

views laid down by the last two speakers. They were beginning to look on the Native question in a Middle Island point of view (hear). Neither in reading the resolution before the House could he accept it, because ho held that this was altogether an Imperial question, and only the Imperial authority should deal with it. The policy now enunciated by the Governor was his own policy, in carrying out which it was believed he would receive a large measure of support from the home authorities; and this House also, should give to the utmost extent of the colony's ability. The only part which Ministers could take in that policy would do as the messengers of this House, to ask them to give as much money as tine colony ought fairly to contribute. The policy was entirely that of His Excellent cy's and such as he (Mr. O'Neill) believed would not succeed; but as he placed the utmost confidence in His Excellency's anxiety to promote the good of the coun- ' try,,ho by his vote would not throw any obstacles in the way of his carrying out that policy for a few years. Ho believed the House was making a difficulty of the Native quc'stiqn where little difficulty might bo anticipated. He believed that if the Native difficulty were . less discussed it would die out of itself. The time was When the Natives wore little trouble, but as soon as the Government began to give them presents and so on, it became apparent that the more idle they became, and Va. nuisance to the white settlers. They would now * have no necessity to sell their land, because they would get ample money for their wants from the Government, and this would bo only a part of the harm done by thus feeding them with money. He believed if all the money were taken away, which they now received from the Government one way or another, in a few montlis they would bo on their knees to the Government, asking to be taken under the law. Tho Ministers ought not to interfere with this policy at all, for while the mind of the Government was occupied so much with Maori affairs the colonists were neglected, and where ' peace and industry reigned before it was commenced, discontent and idleness now existed. It was just setting up the old protcctoral system again; creating new officials with £GOO and £3OO a year, and payinga host of Native Chiefs £4O, £SO and £6O a year; which served to produce discontent among tho others, and the money would be better spent in making roads and bridges. Interference with the natives, for the present, j should bo left to His Excellency. Mr. COLENSO would vote against the motion, and for four reasons; .because it recognized an unconstitutional principle; the Colonial Secretary had ncvei yet shewn them what the responsibility intended was; he saw little profit to be gained by it; whilo the liability of great expense would be incurred. In his opinion it Was no duty or responsibility of this colony to undertake any part of the expense of educating the natives, who, he said,'had all the wealth of the colony in their own hands. • ■ . Mr. GEORGE GEAHAM, in reply to the remarks •of the last speaker, asked if tho Natives could mako . any I 'use of their principal wealth? Could they sell an acre 1 of their land? Was it not the laws of .this land 1 that prevented them? and would this House attempt 'to deprivo them of that? They had a duty to perto leave/the Nntivcs unwtaCfttefJ! <tnd uT!«

cared for. Let the House do its duty, and permit the Natives to make what uso they liked of their own~ scll it to whom they thought proper. But, while they should not repudiate their duty, they were bound to assist the Government to pass this resolution—bound not to take upon themselves the whole responsibility of the education and civilization of thes Natives. The Imperial Government, in tho hour of danger, had assisted them, and they were bound to take their share of the responsibility, and assist the Governor to carry out his plans. At the same time what money they gave thoy had a right to have it expended through their Ministers, and hold them responsible that it was property expended. • [ Mr. "HARRISON was understood to express the opinion that whatever conclusion they might come to with regard; to responsibility in Native affairs, would be of very little effect. The Hon. Mr. WOOD said the old saying of " many men, many minds," had been thoroughly exemplified to-day; overy possible phase that opinion could assume having been adopted by one hon. member or another, even at this early period of the debate. The hon. member for Ellesmere had remarked upon the folly committed by the Ministers in laying bofore the House a large portion of the papers printed this session, a practice which ought not, in his opinion, to be drawn into precedent, and which it would have been better for Ministers if thoy had not commenced. He could not, however, agree with the hon. momber in that view. Such had been the amount of misconception and misrepresentation abroad as to the course adopted by the Government on almost every Native question, that it would have been utterly impossible to have satisfied cither the Colony or this Houso of the actual state of affairs, of the position Ministers had assumed, especially upon the subject of the relations between His Excellency and his advisors, if they had not taken the course "they had taken, of laying fully and fairly before the House the very ample correspondence upon tho various subjects thoy had to deal with during tho recess. His hon. friend at the head of the Government had stated very clearly what had been the relations between the Governor and his Ministers; nor would it have been nt all necessary for him to refer further to those relations were it not that he wished to show, from the papers before tho House, step by step as they went along, what had been the course adopted by, and what had been the views of, the Government, concerning that very important point. Ministers started upon the basis of tho resolution passed at the close of last session, a resolution which had been referred to by his hon. friend at his right, and which was unanimously agreed to by this House, on the motion of tho hon. member for" Wallace, " that any reconstruction of tho Land Purchase Department on a satisfactory basis necessarily involves also an entire reorganization of the political branch of that service, and that no such reorganization will be effectual or satisfactory to the country which does not, while fully recognizing and securing to the Governor both the initiative and the decision where Imperial interests are involved, place the conduct of the ordinary business of Native administration under responsibility to the Assembly." That resolution then Ministers had considered as their instructions upon that point from the Houso; and how they had carried out those instructions, whether they had adhered to them, or whether they had departed from them, would be mado clear by tho few short extracts he would read from tho papers now on the table of the House. la tho very first memo, that was written immediately after Sir George Grey's arrival, Ministers observe as follows: —" Tho object of Ministers in tho foregoing memo, is not so much to suggest to Sir George Grey the course to be pursued, as to put him in possession of the facts of the case at the present moment." It is evident from this extract that Ministers were in no hurry to offer their advice to the Governor, or to do more than tho humble duty of stating facts. Again Ministers state " the foregoing remarks have reference to our relations with the Natives, and tho policy towards them in general. There are, however, some special subjects which will demand Sir George Grey's serious attention." There again they limited their action in accordance w.'th the* instructions of this House. Still more clearly did this come out on the memo, on the finance of His Excellency's plan, dated 6th Dec., 1861:—" Ministers do not shrink from the responsibility of adopting plans involving so large an expenditure. On the contrary they consider that circumstances absolutely require it; and require also that the emergency should be faced at once. It would be idle to attempt the solution of existing difficulties by proposing plans for the social improvement of the natives, dependent on possible votes of the General Assembly. But His Excellency must not misapprehend the extent to which Ministers can pledge the colony in a matter of finance. They can and will recommend to the General Assembly to make the requisite provision for the intended objects, and they can and will stake their own position as Ministers, on the Assembly adopting their recommendation; but they have no constitutional power to bind tho Assembly before hand." It was upon this issue, it was upon the question of the money vote, as, after all, the great practical point, that thoy desired to take the sense of this House upon the Native policy, and it was only in accordance with the wishes of many members of this House that they consented to take the debate on a question that did not embrace this financial consideration. In another of theso memoranda, the following words would be found, showing clearly the exact views and tho exact position of Ministers with reference to His Excellency and to this House:—" The responsibility to the Imperial Government will rest with His Excellency for the action taken, and to the General Assembly with us for the advice we may give." After theso extracts he thought it would be quite plain that, upon this very important point, Ministers had acted up to, but had in no particular whatever exceeded, the instructions they had received from this House at the close of last session. They had not assumed powers which had not been given them; neither had they shirked the responsibilities it was their duty to take. The hon. member for Elles • mere had stated that, in opposing the motion, he was not actuated by any spirit of hostility to the Government. It would be worth while for a moment to enquire into the position of the Government with reference to this motion. The Colonial Secretary stated in his speech tho other night clearly and distinctly the views of the Government upon this point. He stated what the existing relations were; he reforrcd to the resolution, which was the basis of those relations, and to the action which had been taken upon the subject, and he stated further that the Government were of opinion that it was not desirable to attempt to define them more fully, but that the wisest course would bo to ieavo them just in tho position in which thoy are. That was the opinion of the Government, but there was a large section of tho House that refused to go on with any business, refused to discuss any question of detail, till this matter was what they called finally settled. The result was that the Government had proposed this resolution—not ns, in their opinion, the wisest course that could be adopted, but because they felt that, under the circumstances, it was only right to defer to so very generally expressed a wish on the part of the House. The resolution was, however, of that character, and of that importance, it involved a point of such consequence, and, even at this very early stage of the debate, opinions so directly contrary to the views of the Government had been stated, that he was bound to say, if an amendment were carried embodying the views he had refused, Ministers would feel it to be their duty to resign; whilst, on tho other hand, if the resolution wero so negatived as to leave Ministers* relations with tho Governor as they have been since the arrival of Sir George Grey in the Colony, they should not feel it incumbent upon them on that account to vacate their seats. He said the relations now subsisting were identically those which were expressed in the resolution of this House in the session of 1861, and which had been so often referred to, and which was carried unanimously, and voted for by those hon. members who now seemed so anxious to set it aside. Before, however, this House rescinds a resolution of this importance, it will surely require good cause to be shown for so doing. It was, he said, very easy to see that, under certain circumstances, it might have been the duty of this Legislature to have ic-considcred tho resolution of last session to which he had referred. Had Ministers set that resolution aside —had they assumed larger powers than the House had given them—had they advised His Excellency, without reference to the instructions which they had received from this House, that would have afforded good and sufficient reason for the reconsideration of the terms of that resolution. Will the Houso now refuse to entrust the Government with tho same powers and responsibilities with which it was ready enough to entrust them with last session ? Has the House less confidence in Ministers now than it had then? In unanimously voting the sum of £IO,OOO for Native purposes generally, thcro was one condition and one only attaching to that vote, and that condition was, that it should bo expended by tho Governor in Council: that is to say, with the advice of his Responsible Ministers. Had that vote been exceeded—had the allegation, which had been most freely made, proved true, that the Government had exceeded that vote, had expended , large sums, without authority, in experimenting upon Native Government, —then it might have boon the duty, and would have been the duty, of this House, to take especial enre that the Government had not the power of doing so again. No such statement can be substantiated. The Government have not only not exceeded fiat vote, but they have not expended the sum voted, and t >o Hon: *!, in fairness, cannot therefore limit the powers i 'id responsibilities which, on afoimer occasion, it was gj unanimously propared to. give. Ho was surprised \(\] hear : thp ftp, mcqihcr (OV % V'JFtlWu Division

(Mr. O'Neill) propose that Ministers should occupy the position of messengers between Government House and this Legislature, because he thought that, if the hon. gentleman were really of that opinion, his economical views would lead him to suggest some machinery less expensive than that of Responsible Ministers for carrying messages to and from His Excellency. [Mr. O'Neill: In Native matters.] If that were all a Government was wanted for; if tjhat were all Ministers had to do, the best plan would bo to sweep away theso expensive establishments, and secure something else that would do equally well, and at much less cost. The member for tho Heathcote had observed that there was no plan of Native policy before the House. He (Mr. Wood) thought there was a very clear and intelligible plan, a plan which consisted of three distinct, parts. By a reference to Sir George Grey's minute, E—No. 2, page 10, one great object was to give the Natives tho management of their own local affairs, that they were themselves to make regulations for the settlement of all questions connected with cattle trespass, public pounds, fences, marking and branding of cattle, &c. Another part of that plan was to give the Natives tho enjoyment of that which they had neyer yet enjoyed—the right of property in their own lands. (Hear, hear.) Another part of that plan was that of making roads through this country. [A Voice: On Native as well as European land?] Yes, on Native as well as European land; and he would state to the House that at this very moment a working party was employed in making a road through Native territory. (Hear, hear.) Ho would only add as his opinion that thero were but two ways in which, practically, this Colony could bo governed—either through the means of Responsible Ministers, acting pretty much as they had acted during tho recess, or by placing the whole. power iu tho hands of the Governor, to act, not through tho medium of Ministers, but through those pcrmnncnt heads of departments who practically managod tho official business of routine in this Colony. If thcro were not to bo any responsibility on the part of Ministers, the whole system had better be swept away. Up to tho present time, they had agreed with His Excellency in tho main—they had co-operated with hiin, and assisted him in carrying out his views; and thoy wished to act precisely in the same manner for the future, if the House continued to repose that confidence in them which it had hitherto done. Mr. JOLLIE moved the adjournment of the debate till Tuesday, to give aa opportunity for the due consideration of this subject, and preparing well matured resolutions. Mr. GILLIES moved, that it be adjourned till after the orders of the day, which was agreed to. PETITION OP GEORGE ROBERTSON. Mr. DOMETT moved, " That tho potition of Georgo Robertson be referred to the Select Committee on Private Griovances. Agreed to. BILLS OP EXCHANGE, &C. Mr. GILLIES moved, " For leave to bring in a Bill to facilitate the remedies on Bills of Exchange, Promissory Notes, and Cheques. Agreed to. ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE COMMITTEE (ADDITION TO.) Mr. GILLIES moved, " That Mr. Stafford and Mr. Russell be added to the Select Committee on tho administration of Justice. Agreed to. COKRESPONDENCE RELATIVE TO NATIVE TITLE CODM AND NATIVE CONFERENCE. Mr. WELD moved, " For copies of any correspondence that may not yet have been laid on the table of this House relating to the establishment of a Court to adjudicate on questions arising out of Native Land Titles, together with a Memorandum by Mr. Weld when Minister for Native Affairs on the most advisable mode of constituting a Court. Also, the copy of a Memorandum by Mr. Weld when Miuister for Native Affairs, recomending that the next General Native Conference should be elective, with the Minutes of the Acting Native Secretary and Chief Commissioner of the Land Purchase Department upon that recommendation' and the assent of Governor Gore Browne thereto. Agreed to. ELECTORS ON THE ROLLS—PRINTING THERETO. Mr. O'RORKE moved " That the Return which has been laid on the table, of the number of electors on the several electoral rolls of the districts returning members to the House of Representatives be printed. Agreed to. NATIVE LANDS BILL. The Honorable the Colonial Secretary moved, that the Order of the day No. I—the1 —the Native Lands Billstand over for Tuesday next. Agreed to. CROWN GRANTS AND STEAM NAVIGATION BILL. On the motion of Mr. Ward tho Houso went into Committee to reconsider clauses No. 3, 5, 7, 8, 13, and 14 of tho Crown Grants Bill and for further considering tho Steam Navigation Bill. After some time considering these Bills the Crown Grants Bill was reported with amendments, which wero ordered to be considered on Tuesday, and in tho steam Navigation Bill, the committee reported progress and obtained leave to sit again on Tuesday. [Evening Silting.'] DEBATE RESUMED.

Mr. JOLLIE, after some prefatory remarks, said he did not think it necessary to go iuto the theory of the relations of Responsible Ministers to Legislative bodies, but he would rather go upon the broad principles that, this country was now culled on to assume a responsibility which it had never yet enjoyed, and which circumstances did not justify them in assuming. The Imperial Government having hitherto had the whole management of Native affairs, ho denied the right, morality, and justice of transferring to the settlers of this colony the responsibility for a state of things which was tlu result of the Imperial doings, and rested upon the Imperial Government and the Governors sent out, who had in many instances intensified the evils. They all knew the mischief that had arisen from the misconduct of Fitzroy in Native affairs.' Governor Browne for a long time seemed to have been governed by somewhat contradictory feelings and' views, but when he at last arrived at a just knowledge! of tho circumstances of the colony, he took the course; of a truly British Governor. His policy had not been carried out by the present Governor, and therefore thej Government, as a whole, had not the consistency: which a Government should. The colony had nowi laid before it a pcace-at-any-price policy, instead of; the terms of peace laid down by tho lato Governor; being carried out. This showed tho impossibility of the Houso assuming a responsibility which they would not be able to support. The Government now in, office were in fact responsible for the carrying out of those terms, unless they had given the House an opportunity to. express themselves upon it. The present position of Taranaki he considered was a disgrace to the British name, and a standing menace. Open war would bo preferable. Supposing another Governor took tho place of Sir G. Grey, his first contact with a Ministry of modified responsibility would bo fought with complication and difficulty. Again, if these institutions were to bo efficient in binding;, concentrating, and organizing the Native mind, thoir working, in the event of any unhappy collision, might have a most serious effect in injuring the British inhabitants of the colony. Let the House beware what it was about; give the Governor what supplies he required for carrying out his own plans, but take as little responsibility as they could for it. Mr. WELD agreed with the Colonial Secretary as to the difficult circumstances in which they were now placed from what they would havo been had they from the commencement had tho Native question in their own hands; remembering how, from tho beginning, feelings of animosity had been fostered between the settlers and Natives, the affairs taken out of tho settlers' hands, how, under Imperial management, difficulties were continually arising, and increasing in magnitude up to.the present time, till an aspect of affairs existed which ho was not at all satisfied with. They must all feel that they were on the verge of a precipice, that the fate of the Native race was now trembling in the balance; and ho should consider the man who could solve the problem, whether in accordance with his views or any other, as a groat man, and one who had doserved well of the colony and even of the human race. This Houso had done its best to solve the problem, and he hoped the late Government would have credit for wishing to preserve the Native race, though, in their idea, it was to be dono by measures of' firnjness and severity (hear). Had the colonists boon thrown on their own resources from the beginning, they would havo learned to grapple with the difficulties as they arose, would havo been well educated as statesmen, and would havo learned to defend themselves as soldiers. At tho present bo believed it was impossible, would be madness, self-destruction, and ruin to the Natives, if the sole management of Native affairs was given up to this Legislature. They could not take it (hear, hear). It was time to have done with sham phrases. He believed they were bound by every letter of the Treaty of Waitangi; but look round on the other side : how many Natives consented to that Treaty ? how many in the Southern Island aud in tho Chatham Islands? Tho Treaty of Waitangi was a sham (hear, hear). He did not mean that wo had no right hero at all, or that the islands should only have been colonized for the benefit of tho Native race. The colonists had a right to be here on tho broad ground that when a nation was incapable of risiug and civilizing itself of providing for its internal order, and of defending itself from foreign attacks, then a powerful Government like England was justified in si jpping in to assist and raise them, but at the same tine asserting its sovereignty. Uhat would not have ttjQ ground tfi&p. b y ft m$ w WBis!» f v ? &$'

would not have had the power to justify it. They would have made-terms with the Natives, saying" wo will buy this district of you, and we will help you, and do our best to civilize you, &c"; but they would not have claimed sovereignty. The object of thesft arguments was to show that the colonists never had as a body assumed the sovereignty, but had simply acted as loyal subjects. He would never, therefore, consent, to take the responsibility of the present state of affairs. He would have thought it wise for the Homo Government to have given them from the commencement a certain measure of Government, but still they had no right to demand it. They could not say, "send as] your troops and assist us with your money," and at; the same time call oh it to give them the whole power} of Government. With the Home Government was the! power, and there would be the responsibility also, i He should feel it his duty therefore to oppose the), motion of the hon. gentleman opposite, because itreally left things much in the same position as before. They could not possibly undertake the whole responsibility, and let them not keep up any little shams: without any benefit from them. Mr. GILLIES, after referring to his being the representative of 20,000 British colonists, or one-fifth of the whole European inhabitants of the colony, said he desired, however, to speak as a representative of the colony of New Zealand in its entirety. He I thanked the hon. member for Ellcsmere for drawing ■ their attention to what they were to prone to forget— principles—so that if they were going on wrong principles they might at once retrace their steps. Pecuniary considerations he agreed should not be a first consideration in this matter. They might fairly illustrate principles 1 by their consequences, but they had no right to reason up from pecuniary loss to false first principles. The thunks of the House were also duo to Ministers for bringing this question before them in an honest, straightforward way that they could understand, and the House should meet Ministers in the same honest spirit in which they had met the House,—meet them not by a mere negation of the resolution, but by asserting positive principles also. He was prepared to stale his opinions on the subject, but he was not prepared to put them in a formal resolution, unless he knew what were to be the results. If Ministers told them it was to be a Ministerial question,—that if he put his opinions in black and white, and moved them as an amendment, and they were carried, Ministers would resign their position, then he was not prepared to accept the result. He was not prepared to turn Ministers out. nor he believed was any person or any party that he had met with in the House. If such were not to bo the result, he could soon placo his views on the table of the House; but in either case Ministers could easily find out exactly what the House meant on the question before them. He need not disclaim party spirit, for it was woll known that ho was not connected with any party and never had been. He should speak his own mind without reference to others. This question, the position of Responsible Ministers towards the Governor, resolved itself into three distinct positions. Either Ist, That the colony and therefore the Ministry were not responsible for Native policy; that they disclaimed all responsibility, at the same time being willing to contribute fairly towards the expense; this was one extreme. Then there was the other extreme, 2nd, That-of accepting all the responsibility and the full power of managoment, and throwing themselves upon the generosity of the Home Government for their contribution towards the expense; or there was, 3rd, the middle course, which nppeared to him much less distinct and straightforward than either of the others, —the undefined position which Ministers now took up in the resolution before the House. They had been told by nearly every speaker, that the colony was now in a position to make a fresh start under fresh circumstances, and it behoved them now to know what was their position, and what were to be their responsibilities. He for one objected to be led into undefined responsibilities. It had been said that we were more responsible now than in 1856; he denied it. The colony had not committed themselves one whit more by the Acts of 1858 than to find the monies necessary to carry out those Acts. They had become responsible on ! y so far as those Acts would be taken advantage of by the Governor, the cost of which they were bound to pay (hear). The position of Ministers towards the Governor was shadowy and undefined. There was very littlo responsibility to be taken, Ministers said, "only £50,000 a year." But in twelve months other men might be in their places, and another Governor in the room of Sir G. Grey, and whar then would be their responsibility,—a matter to be fought over on another day (hear, hear), it was merely putting off the evil day by failing to define what might be defined ut once. Another alternative whs that of the hon. member for Ellesinere, to take all the responsibility and all the liability, trusting to the generosity of the British nation. All of them admitted, that in time of need, to her sons, Great Britain had never failed; but it often came to be the last hour of their extremity before she came in to their relief. If this colony were unanimous in supporting Ministers in carrying out one whole and undivided policy, then the colony might perhaps rely on the assistance of the British Government. But how had they been in time past, with policies neutralized like the last, by vacillation between absolute refusal: and recoguition, through a traitorous spirit amongst themselves. But they could not in any circumstances calculate on the support of Britain to a large extent, and only to a very small extent if they got into a scrape by their own miscalculations. j The hon. member for Ellesmere had said that the colonists were trustees specially appointed by Pro-, yidence to take care of the Native rece. He denied it; no doubt we were bound by certain duties towards i this people,—bound, as brothers of the same human . race, to use our utmost endeavour to raise them from j the same barbarism in which our ancestors were to the same pitch of civilization as ourselves, but we had no right to say " am I my brother's keeper"; we were not trustees. For instance, he might recognize his brother as one whom he was bound to assist as tar as be was able, but if he was a trustee, he would be ] bound to pay every debt that brother contracted, i This proposal of taking the whole rested on the sup- > position that the British Government and Colonial Government were the only contracting parties; but. surely the sovereignty of these Maoris could not be handed over from one to another without their own | consent, until the British Government had fulfilled j the terms of its treaty with them, civilized them,: made them British subjects with all the rights and' privileges, and subject to all these duties attaching' to that position. This colony and the House would then not fail to accept them, and admit them to all the \ rights and privileges of fellow subjects, admit them to perfect equality in every way; but till then they were not justified in demanding the whole government of tho natives to be handed over to them, —a position which tho Crown should keep till it had fulfilled those duties. It was not, however, a mere question of theory to ; be dealt with to-night, but a question of present prac-i tice. They were under no liabilities now,—had: never accepted that alleged trusteeship; Great Britain had never offered it, and they should not ask it. He would never disclaim it in the endeavour to get rid of expense if he thought it right they should take it. Their true course was to disclaim entire responsibility for native affairs, give the largest contributions towards carrying out the Governor's policy which the colony could atford, leaving aside for tho present the question of allocation inter se, for they were bound in honour, morality, ami Christianity, to contribute their utmost towards civilizing the natives, but that was a very different thing to taking the primary responsibility. Let them give tho money to the Governor absolutely without condition, without even discussing his policy or asking him what it was; for if they adopted this course they had no right to ask him. He acknowledged, that the homo Government had sent out a man of consummate ability to settle the difficulties of the colony, and why should they throw obstacles in the way of that which, however much they might doubt it, might be successful if they threw no obstacles in its way. He believed almost any policy would bo successful in the hands of such a man a 9 Sir George Grey. But it had boon suggested that this way of doing things would not work, that obstacles would bo found every day, and that thev had no right to bind Ministers to work it out if they did not like. He admitted that. They did not warn to bind Ministers, but would siiy to Sir George Grey, " Carry out vour policy by what agents you think best; we don't'bind you down to employ our men, unloss you and they can agree." Tho Colonial Secretary had supposed a case in which there might be difficulty—the Governor proposing to erect a Native Provinco in tho midst of this Province. Well, if such were proposed, it would be for the Colonial Secretary to say whether it interfered with the privileges of British colonists under the Constitution Act, and if it did; Ministers would refuse to carry it out, come down to this Assembly and lav the case before them. Then they would leave His Excolloucy to take tho responsibility on himself; there was no difficulty there. This was the only wav to get quit of this incubus on the progress of New Zealand, which was resulting in a difficulty that would one day tear Now Zealand asunder. Now was the time for the House to bear in mind that thev now—and probably for the last time—have it in the'ir power to maintain New Zealand a united colony, as he should wish to see it: for it was this that stung a large body of our colonists to the core—the feeling that their interests had been neglected, while the legislature had heen seeking after doctors for Maori evils. But if the course which he advocated were adopted, the colonists would feel that their affairs were being attended to On the answer tho House Would give to this question of MWWTO! rf.lftljp.ns, (Ipnen.dcd rjot on.lv the whole"

question of Native »fikirs, but »lso all the relations of the Colony of New Zealand between its different portions. (Applause). ' .. Mr. BELL (whose able speech we are not ma position, on account of his own delinquency, tp give at length) regretted the absence of the late Colonial Treasurer (C. W. Eichmond) to whom he ascribed, the idea which lay at the foundation of the policy now desired to be overthrown. Any who had Jieard him in 1858 propose the policy which the house, then adopted would be surprised now to find the House desftous of retracing every stop the Assembly of New Zealand had taken for the performance of duties which the House had then admitted to belong to it, and which no alteration of circumstances could relieve them fromIt was undoniable he thought that when the Constitution Act placed in the hands of a European constitution the power to make laws for the population of these islands there was a solemn practical trust given to this Assembly which it had in former sessions done its best to fulfil, and it should never with his consent cease so to do. He could not conceive how anyone (especially one who had been a Native Minister) should fail to realise the absolute necessity of coming to a determination such as they did last" session. No sufficient grounds had been shown for breaking the arrangements then entered into, and he thought they had no right after having deliberately met Sir George Grey with such a unanimous expression of opinion, to refuse now to abide by it. By the legislation of 1858 the House claimed its right to determine what policy should be pursued and they could not now reverse the action or refuse to fulfil the duties which they then took. He believed it was impossible to define tho relations that should exist between His Excellency and Ministers. He also believed with the mover that the interests of the Natives and settlers were so mixed up that it would be impossible to separate them. It was to claim responsible government as in England, tins Governor being responsible not to them but to the Home Government. But they were bound to advise him on; all questions that might affect the Europeans, and they had no right to leave Taranaki in its present state and tell it to go to the Governor. Taranaki had not as yet been treated even with the most common justice; a paltry £25,000 it was true had been voted, but the actual loss was not less than half a million. His voice would always be raised to ask the House to remember, our solemn obligations to the people of Taranaki, till that settlement should be restored to its former position, and the settlers, their wives and children, restored in comfort and peace to their homes. In conclusion he besought tho House not to adopt the fatal policy suggested to it by those who opposed the resolution, of letting things take care of themselves; not to turn back from the work which they had begun; not to make this Resoluticn a groundwork for party dissension; ami he besought the Government not to meet, what ought to be a liberal and generous spirit on the part of the House, in any spirit of a party or spiteful: ch i i r a f* t c r Major RICHARDSON, after referring to some of Mr. Bell's remarks, spoke as to the absurdity and cruelty of telling the Taranaki sufferers to wait the! issue of a policy not yet even sketched out,—which he compared to telling a subject in the agonies of death to wait till you had made some experiments on another in a state of health,—said he had used his best eiidcu-: vours but could not make out this resolution. It seemed impossible to him that there could be Hny such thing as responsibility to this House in Native matters. He would not perhaps so much object to the Resolution itself but he could not agree with the views expressed by its mover nor with the policy imltcatcd in tho Native Lands Bill. It was in his opinion utterly unjust for this House to legislate in the Maori question, the original contract having been between the Crown and the Maoris, i.e., the Treaty of Waitangi, which he believed was the veriest sham and delusion that had ever appeared in the political affairs of New Zealand, and the bitter fruits of which ourselves and our Maori friends were now reaping. Further, the terms of Royal Instructions to His Excellency made this Ministerial Responsibility an utter impossibility, (blatter instructing him to confer with his Executive Council, it was said— Provided also that nothing herein contained shall prevent your exerciting the several powers and authorities afore aid or any of them without the advice and concurrence of our said Council in. any case or upon any occasion which may be of such a nature that in your judgment our service would sustain material prejudice by consulting our said Council thereupon. And we do authoring yon in your discretion and if it shall in any case appear right, to act in the exercise of the power committed to yon hy our said Commission, in opposition to the advice which may in any such ease be given to you by the Members of our said Executive Council. Provided nevertheless that in any such case you ■ do fully report to us, by the first convenient opportunity , rvery such proceeding, with the grounds and reasons thereof. —Such being the case, though there might be responsibility there would be no power; and we should not get out of our difficulties at all by introducing the system of Responsible Government, but we should do best by submitting a generous confidence iii the Governor, for if there was one man on the face of tin* earth competent to grapple with the present difficulties it was His Excellency.

Mr. ATKTNSO'tf said the people of Taranaki had full confidence that the House would deal with them in a liberal spirit as it had done already and they were very grateful for it. They were aware of the many difficulties standing in the way, but they hoped that the time had nearly arrived when an end might be put to these troubles. He disavowed any party intention in the vote he was about to give for he did not want the Ministers to leave those benches, believing that they represented in theminds of the Natives and ot'ihc "Europeans, what was known as the peace policy, lie thought it was a mistake, he did not think they represented any more a peace policy than the late Ministry, but in the eyes of the world they were so considered, and their defeat might have a bad effect on the Native mind. (Hear, hear.) He heartily wished the question to be settled in a peaceable manner and wished the Ministry to have a fair trial. He could not agree that wo were trustees of the Natives nor that by the Treaty of Waitangi the Crown undertook to govern them directly from England. The constitution was given to the inhabitants of this island, not to any section of it and the Natives might if they had taken the proper means, have governed us. The principal shadowed forth in the Colonial {Secretary's resolution he regarded as unsatisfactory, it would guarantee the Colony nothing, but would open the door for the Home Government to throw upon them the responsibility of the advice they gave the Governor. He thought therefore that they would best carry out their common object of saving and elevating the Native race and meet the wishes of the country by giving the whole power into the hands of Sir George Grey who had been selected as the one man to meet the emergency; and could they assist him in anyway by giving Ministers the power rather to hamper him than to consult him? If the Governor was doubtful on any point he would go to some capable person for advice and he believed Sir George Grey was the last man to consult a man simply because he was a Minister. (Laughter). The Taranaki members felt that there had been a great omission in His Excellency's speech, Taranaki having been passed over without mention, no hope held out to the settlers, no sympathy expressed. [Mr. Carlkton: Only for the " White Swan."] They therefore applied to His Excellency for an interview, so as to ascertain if there was anything they could say to their constituents about the matter, for there was now a strong feeling in Taranaki to leave it and it was undesirable that they should be allowed to leave the settlement if there were any hope for it. His Excellency received them, but the first thing he said was M Gentlemen I cannot allow this: to be drawn into precedent; I have received you under the peculiar circumstances of Taranaki, but with responsible advisers it is very doubtful whether I ought to have received you." (Hear, hear.) If the Governor was to initiate and decide all Native questions what did he mean by saying this? [Mr. Fox: The Imperial not Native questions.] Well if the Native question of Taranaki was not an Imperial question he would like to know what was. (Cheers.) The Governor having told him that it rested with this House and the Ministry' to decide on the Taranaki question, where was the Im-. perial initiation and decision reserved to Sir George Grey? This resolution had two aspects—Native and European. The colonists had been held up to the Natives as not wishing for their advancement but for their land and as the Imperial Government had thought proper to send out Sir George Grey as " the man" for the difficulty he should go unfettered, by this House and its Ministers, clearly to the work by himself alone, the House assisting only by a vote of monoy. Confidence would thus be much more quickly restored than by any number of Ministers going about the country faco to face. Confidence must be restored by some other means by men selected by His Excellency himself for the purpose and for no other purpose He would submit to Ministers that they would be in just as good a position, as representing the Europeans only, and they could then, when necessary, go to the Governor with clean hands and say, " This will affect the; Europeans." They would bo less in the position of "clerks and instruments" than by theirowh proposition. He was sorry to hear the Colonial Secretary say he was satisfied with the present position of affairs. . It was most painful to read the printed "Reports of Officers" which brought to view a state of Native affairs such as to render it hopeless that this or any other Ministry could deal with them; affairs must be, handed over to a single mind to direct the whole. xWr. J. C. RICHMOND could not give a silent vote on the present occasion; yet if this were to be more than the beginning of the end, be should give his vote with regret aud anxiety. The subject was a little obscure in itself, and if there'had been something Hk4 dust itj hisiuind on entering upon the subject, th 4 i he heard. hM fy<s (q^j

that dust thicker. Those: speeches and clear, but so conflicting as & produce sion characteristic of that celebrated chan^iF** l used to sura up with "I doubt." Th« trot? ' "*• words had been used by different speaker! iniJSL** l and we had been talking toomuchbf „£!?** when the question whs of power. A* home W-# talked of the three powers ol the state we wfett * stood- that there was one event of absolute collision, must and' wouldh* dominant. But here in the,colony, therew &*" substantial powers,-Hhat of the empire rmnJUUP His Excellency the Governor and X iSSTfe ana that of the colony represented in th»Xea£& and by the power of the purse. As long «we iSIT power of the purse, we had a substantial newtiVZ until we could command the movement of the twL»? we had only a very imperfect active power a long way off having the command of the'tjoow! no resolution of the House would, give us com»£? yet we were at a critical period of our history JSp was absolutely necessary to have the active the colony single. Only one way appeared to u? (Mr. R.) possible of obtaining that unity, hj JJ'fi the colony should, from session to session at hZr • thought ht, voluntarily lay down its power of newti? " the Imperial action by voting any money to be disposed of at His Ex(*uW7*» Hon. gentleman opposite had said the GovexmZ could not be carried on in this way, as Native «AU. were so rarely unmixed, that the line could Zi! drawn; he (Mr. R.) saw the difficulty, but thoughuS solution, was easy. They the Ministers might com£ to administer the Native Department under Ha * cellency and responsible to Mm. Nothing rjutaul pride, he might say vanity, need prevent the m *2 must not talk about refusing to be "moneveLEft Thchon. the Colonial Secietary would be thejL man whether called responsible to His Excellent u*% H °n se * If ,K bercw »,i 0 """ 1 «smam^ His Excellency, things would go on as now anJlt they were at cross purposes, no mechanism theßoL could devise would overcome a collision of wilfc deadlock would come in spite of rn*cbanism, but if?! course he advocated were adopted, the eolony mlu have declared beforehand tha it was fit the Grover** should be supreme. He (Mr R.) Colonial Secretary that the colony would not iiul money responsibility by such an setioo. We cJd not in any way fix the Imperial Government to wk. good our expenditure, the colony is responsible; it<U answer in money and life for the polity whoever bu» be its author which is pursued towards the Natmi Taranaki was answering at this moment for thelstt twenty years' policy. There was no escape fromftk sort of responsibility. It was the moral responsibilkr which we must seek to make one. Whilst saying tbit lie (Mr. R.) cordially agreed in the sentiment of ft. Hon. member for Ellesmere. He (Mr. K.) appreciated the importance of self-reliance, aod the educating effect of such questions as this, he saw that the Native question and our late troubles themselves had brought a blessinir which, though it could not be expressedin terms of £ ». d. or balanced against human fives, «u not the less a substantial benefit. It had made us Soberer and more thoughtful. This debate was an evidence of it. He (Mr. R) admitted that we had a trusteeship i B the case, but he conceived that in taking the count be advocated, we should not be abdicating that trtuteeskk but fulfilling the trust. A trustee's duty is Umiteibr his powers, and it was not necessary that he should .viih his own hands execute the business entrusted to him. He (Mr. R.) thought that we best fulfilled our dutv now by confiding our share of power into the hands of the Governor, guarding him to the utamt against interference, and only reserving to this Hone the function of general criticism and of reconsiderisg our position. On the motion of the hon. Mr. WARD, the debits was then adjourned till Monday, and the House abo adjourned at about half-past 10 o'clock.

MONDAY, JULY 28th. The SPEAKER took the chair at 12 o'clock. ILLEGAL OCCCPATIOW OF HATIVE LAKDB, Mr. JOLLIE moved, For a return of all European known to be in occupation of Native land in each Province of the North Island, specifying as minutely as may be practicable, the year when each occupation began, the quantity of land held by each individual, the tribe it belongs to, the character of the tenure (whether by sufferance or by positive lease or agreement), the a nount of rent or other consideration given, the value of the stock or other property possessed by each occupant, the number of his family, and bis trade or profosion, —together with a statement of all prosecutions instituted by Government under the provisions of the Native Land Purchase Ordinance. The Hon. COLONIAL SECRETARY said die Government would be notable to furnish any part of this return, except the convictions. They could not know who occupied Native land. The hon. member might as well ask for a return specifying how way glasses of spirits had been illegally sold to Maoris. The motion being pressed, was carried on a dirision by 22 to 19. MIXISTERIA.L RE3POXSHHLITY IK NATIVE ACTUS*— ADJOBBSED DEBATE. Mr. CROSBIE WARD resumed the debate. He , referred briefly to the intention of the Government in the resolution now proposed. It was one of a middle character equally removed from the doetrine of complete responsibility, and from that propounded in the opposite extreme. The abandonment of all responsibility in Native affairs would be a retrograde step which he hoped the colony would not take; under any circumstances, the course proposed to vote money and te decline any control over its expenditure, wonld be t dereliction of duty. The question was one affecting the formation of the constitution, and he begged hon. members to be exceedingly careful in coming K>» decision upon it. Mr. STAFFORD: Sir, the speech which the How hns just heard from the hon. the Postmaster-Geneni is so far fortunate that it was entirely confined tothe subject of the motion now being discussed. And it » a subject of congratulation to the House that, with bat trifling exceptions, the debate generally, has been can* ; fined to the fundamental constitutional question of n- : lations between the mother country and the colony w» | respect to the government of the Natives, Thai, sir, the question—one in its very essence of a complicated and embarrassing nature—has not been further complicated by extraneous allasions; I propose to folkwrtke same course, believing that this is not the occasion oo which to advocate or denounce any particular pohcj, to criticise the wisdom, or the contrary, of any specie! act of administration, to consider what should be done, but who is to do it. (Hear, hear.) In approaching the consideration of this question, I am oppressed frankly admit, by a sense of great responsibility, •» verj great embarrassment—an embarrassment no* arising out of the terms of the motion, or of recent date, but one which I have experienced for the l* s *** years, during which responsible government has beta established in this country. The hon. the PostmMW General has fairly enough placed before the House tu: position of a responsible government in a dependence of an empire. It is simply impossible that the systtß of the responsibility of the Executive to the elected representatives of the people can be worked in the unj complete manner in a dependency as it is or may he in an independent nation. In the latter, the sovereign executive power whether called constitutional Kagi or by some other name, and the legislature have to deal with each other alone. There is no power on the »»e of those two bodies which can affect their relatione to each other. But with respect to a dependency there » always an external power capable of controlling «» d irecting the action of local government. How did we stand in this country with respect to this outside controlling power? It might have happened might have been in the same position as some otnff colonies having representative legislatnres—as »* Capo Colony, from which the present Governor n». last come—that no IdSnisterial responsibility to control the actions of the Gsvernor had been established. J» that case European und native questions would be on the same tooting, and one element of the complication which surrounded the consideration of the question"! this country would have been absent. In that PO"f"*| too, he would say, with reference to the speech of M» hon. member for Ellesmera, we might have controlw the supplies voted as effectually as we could DoW _° o ' but in this country the direct responsibility of the Executive to the Legislature in all matters affecting Colonial interests only had for some years been estaolished. And I may here observe, that I have never, for one moment contemplated any withdrawing Irom the system now in operation. Nor am I aware that any of those with whom I am on terms of political «u----macy, ever dreamed of any diminution of the power ana influence which the Legislature now exercise over u» Executive, as the hon. member for Wallace seemed » infer (hear, hear.) I indignantly repudiate such» assertion ; on the contrary I shall always maintain, ** I have hitherto maintained, that the Government « tho colony in purely colonial matters should d*»*~7 can best be administered in deference to the e^P 1 **?? wishes of the representatives of the colony, and dj persons directly responsible to the Legislature * or Jr manner in which it is administered. (Hear, hear.) J" are thus in this position of difficulty;, that as to ope chip of public affairs the Government'is entirely respoa«lo« for its aotipn to the Legislature of New Zealand *WJ there is nq interference with action j while w»t reaped ft wwtfw large das* there it a great P 0 ™

F>A r i/iU colony wbich h»8 both the right and the 1 'iaPPB Tlfem. an hasbeen lately shown by the way '#?*- „t ol Sir George Grey to administer the g the resolution now proposed by meet this difficulty? To my mind it not finitel y Md l . m ° ! * indefinitely, only «*;." i t proposes to do nothing j there is no- * power or significance in it; it is mere 0 S * Sin so far as it may propose to establish 00 y®Ler or responsibility as to the administration «BL#f%iir9, while it raises up an indefinite liablff^P;Lt administration. This very indefiniteness lity for U L, is its chief objection. Except as to a i artmental arrangement, it indicates nothing 0* Lvement in some directions as a policeman IflfcJ " t0 ft crowd in the street,'? Move on," without wl "? hlvt far. or where to. I cannot, therefore, give more than the first portion of it—as far pf .< colony," in the soventh line—and I may *» ,h « *zt eoroo surprise that the position of Ministers House for some time has, while it has *P* nnsed a nd objected to from all sides of the House, been °f Sved any support from a single member. I »*P„ informed, it is true, that Ministers claim the haTO T f the hon member for Wallace, as snpry mg it. •P** (jood fortune to hear the whole of that I,W ttanan's speech, but I must say that the half hon. gey . j d | (l b ear appeared to me to be most ° f •* to the motion. (Laughter.) Tho hon. the Secretary urged in favour of the motion, that ■° nl,a possible to separate questions affecting the it > 8 2 {tool Native questions; that they overlapped tolonl tantly t hßt die rcß P° nßibi % °' deciding all mat- *° c ° n ? line to both questions must bo in tho same hands teisre twbat he termed a "dead-lock ;" and that fSSJUrt conseqnently must have tho control of Native Ministers admitting fully the overlapping characquestion* hQW p ropos i t<on of the hon ter« £ !, q ro ect tho difficulty ? Nay, did it not rather 8° n tbQ liability of deadlocks arising? As the! ' nCreftS miff nnders'ood the explanations given of the goose n resolution before it, tho words " ImmeamD? s „ were t0 j, e as referring only to !Lment of tho Imperial troops. [Mr. Fox did the empW m . t thftt only -j WiU he offor any ex . W B - W i„>h may be given of what Ministers mav or ftSfifSS by the words " Imperial question."* I ro *7 eroeive how the liability of a conflict and clashTiLransibility may be avoided, if Native questions heranw they arc Imperial questions also, to be !l!i and decided by a different machinery from w which they propose should govern all other Vm of Native policy or administration. (Hear, ■ to me t i iat their proposition if v2 ir /.fl and acted on would only remove £ conflict of responsibility and liability to a A lock from minor and unimportant questions he of the gravest character, and which would M „!t nermanently affect the Europeans in this country. Nt/contend that the distinction Ministers seek to L the House believe to be a perfectly easy matter, TdL to say a separation of the Native question and ™£i from those which are Imperial, and those which nncm the Colony only, cannot be made (hear hear), Sv because all those questions without exception Amend for their enforcement upon the same power. Swi all or any of them the necessity for enforcing obedience on the natives may arise, and whenever it Am ari«, whatever may be the cause, the power of wlrcintr that necessary obedience is not a colonial ono for all important military movements; whether to mel external attack or suppress a grave internal insurrection, the Colony must for a considerable time, Spend mainly on the army and navy of the mother oountn the decision as to the employment of which a. colonial Ministry would not be permitted to have thev would not therefore seek to decide Native Lsuons, all of which might necessitate the employment of the army and navy of external power, for I repeat that no defined or clear separation can be made between those Native questions which might and those which might not lead to the employment of force (hear hear); take for instance the question of the purchase of land from the Natives. That was one which Ministers I presume seek to decide on the ground that it intimately concerned the colonists, and li could not be pretended that it did not intimately concern their lives and properties, but every member ol the House would admit that it was an Imperial question also. It is therefore to my mind less likely that conflicts of responsibility or deadlocks will arise if the same role is, in the present state of the Colony, applied to alt questions of Native policy or administration ; and that it should be as it was while the late GoTemment and Ministry were in office, that the Ministers should know and advise upon all Native questions whatsoever, whether Imperial or not, but the ultimate decision should rest with the Governor (hear, hear). But if that was not to bo the rale, and there was to be a separation of Native ques- j tions into tho«e as to which Ministers were to have the responsibility and the supreme voice, and those with which they were not to interfere, then it was just those grave questions which might peril tho lives and property of the colonists which they proposed to have nothing to do with, that they should be responsible for (hear, hear), ft had been stated by the hon. the Colonial Secretary, in support of his proposal, that the relations established between the late Governor and his Ministers, by the late memoranda of 1856, were swept away by the legislation of 1858. [Mr. Fox: -I did not say swept away, I said altered.] [Mr. Carleton took down the hon. gentleman's words, and they were " taken away."] He (Mr. Stafford) understood the hon. member for Wallace to make, in effect, the same statement, and so far his speech _ might, perhaps be said to have been in support of Ministers, lie wa« surprised that the analytical mind of that hon. member failed to perceive the difference between the powers of the Governor referred to in the memoranda of 1856, and those constituted by the Acts passed by that Legislature in 1858. The destinction between those powers was obvious. The first were powers which the representative of the Crown could exercise in virtue of the Royal prerogative, or under the provisions of Acts of thetfmperial Parliament, as the Constitution Act and others. The latter powers wero new ones requiring to be established by some statute, either of the Imperial or Colonial Parliament. No statute conferring such powers being in existence at the time, the late Government came to this Legislature in 1858, and asked it to confer these new powers on the Governor, the Legislature consented and passed the Acts in Suestion, and in doing so provided very properly, that ie new power it was creating should only be exercised by the Governor with the consent of the ministers of Jww Zealand, who would thus be responsible to the people lor the exercise of them. The hon. member for Wallace was not, therefore, justified in ascribing to i Urn, or to any of those with whom he acted, a disposi- • tion to withdraw from positions they had formerly taken, because, while requiring ic 1858 that some new powers conferred on the Governor of acting in native matters should be used only with the consent of ministers, they now refuse to demand entire ministerial responsibility in all native matters. (Hear, hear.) Ke had already «»id that he objected to this motion on account of its vagueness j that while it failed to define anything—even what is meant by the word Imperial—it left in the power of the Imperial Government to attach any signification it might please to it, and any liability on we colony for the result of the administration of the Government in native questions which it might think Proper to attach. He objected altogether to this position of undefined responsibility and uncertain liability. Let not the hon. member for Ellesmere suppose that W .desired, as he might infer from his taking the opposite from himself of this resolution, not to hold the governor accountable to this House for what he may <Jo in native matters. He held as strongly as the hon. member, or any person could do, the absolute necessity M the Governor being accountable for tho native policy aominwtratioß. We only differ as to the mode in which that accountability is to be answered. The proposition before the House does not ensure it,—still less would the plan of the hon. member for Ellesmere ensure it,, Indeed, the very essence of that plan, that ministers should bo responsible for everything, would ,» M a necessary corollary, that the Governor *°nld be responsible for nothing (hear, hear). The Position was go transparent that he was astonished at toe illogical conclusion at which the hoa. member had •raved in his desire to fix accountability on the governor. He said this with the highest respect for me acknowledged talent of the hon. member, and for »h- kT orß of clearly expressing his opinions for wuica he a so famous, which, however, renders the extraordinary solf-delusion under which the hon. gentleman labours on the present occasion all the more hnM ar * able (laughter). It is because he desires to t°yye" e Government accountable to this House that «e by no me an ß wilt be content to hold the hon. anH iema " opposite responsible for tho native policy, «w thus to transfer tho accountability from tho wyernrnent to them. He would not place thorn in tnat position—

" Like a feather bed betwixt the wall, And heavy brunt of cannon ball." Hjou pla M fenders in the shape of Ministers between th!r°? e and the sovereign powers—if you place &!!i wf thc Executive in the place of a " constituent T erei ßn"-it is an idle fiction to say that you ?J M >m personally accountable. Believing it to in " !: caimble to place the Governor in that position KWW, ho behoved it to be equally impoßG X* lh<s Home Government, by appointing Sir G^s 8 when and how it did to administer the 2E2H»* on a grave emergency, will hold him •Ewil " for his conduct. His Excellency could not tkl!,,?* of which we have no evidence, get H % *? WWfoilftj. Vfvfa It, wl\ M k

absurd for us to afreet to, look to ministers as Mas BESSES** matterß ? - , To place BSSSS ine position of being content with carping at or criticjaing their measures while we preferred to hold Sm Uoyenrnient irresponsible ? The Governor can at any moment uke up a position of deep importance to the Sa- 3 U ntcWßte Pfl th * colonists without the possibility of this House controlling him. The hon. member for .JMieamue says we can control him by stopping the supplies. What a delusion! although he was almost atraid to apply such a word to one whom he admired so much as the hon. gentleman. This House has no such control j it cannot stop the only supplies which would really interfere with the most important action by which, the Governor could affect the inhabitants of this country, the supplies by which the troops an d ships of war are maintained (hear, hear); and when we near of ministerial responsibility in JNative matters we may ask if it hai occurred that in all such matters there was a complete concord of opinion between His Excellency and hon. gentlemen opposite? Differences oi opinion are reported to have already taken place, as with respect to Coroinandel, for instance [Mr. Fox: Not the smallest difference has taken place either as to Coromandel or any other matter.] If that is the case then as to what has been done at Coromandel, some comments in the transaction would, when questions of policy were being discussed, be made on the conduct of some gentlemen who expressed very decided opinions two years since (hear, hear). We all agreed with the hon. member for Ellesmere in recognizing the oblio-a-tioii undt-r which the Colony lay to do its utmostV aiding to civilize and educate the Nati 'e race. Neither our sympathies nor our efforts would be- wanting towards this great end, nor had ihey been mo hitherto. I may refer the hon. gentleman to the language used by my late colleague (Mr. Richmond), whose speeches or rather essays, in support of that object during the passing of the Native Bills in the Session of 1858, have elicited the highest commendation not only in the colony but in the mother country and elsewhere, and were copied into the London Press (hear, hear.) When the present Native policy (that is, the attempt to civilize the Natives by means of themselves), was referred to as a new policy, it might be remarked that the real paternity of the idea, and the legislation by which it could be carried into effect originated with the late Governor and Ministry in 1858. Had circumstances not occurred to prevent its being brought into operation at ones it would have been more successful than it was now ever likely to be (hear, hear.) What these circumstances were, I am debarred from stating n»w, and il is probable they never will be stated. I will return to the resolution before the House. Sir, in view of the impossibility in the present state of the colony of establishing one uniform course by which the Government of New Zealand should be guided in all matters, and with respect to all the conflicting interests, this resolution proposes a compromise between those interests ; a compromise of a kind to which 1 cannot assent. I too, sir, will propose a compromise for which there is sufficient precedent one which was frequently acted on by a people who made their presence felt in the world in their time. The Romans, sir, in grave emergencies u«ed to appoint a Dictator for a limited time. This Dictator could suspend any law which interfered with his acting for the public safety during his Dictatorship, but when the period had transpired, was held to account for the mode in which he had exercised his great powers, when he was either rewarded or degraded and punished, even sometimes with death. Sir, I would in the present position of this portion of the colony be prepared to see Sir George Grey on any emergencies which may occur in Native matters, act as Dictator for one year with respect to such emergencies. At the end of that time, this House would consider how he had acted, and whether it was fitting or not that such discretionate power should be possessed by him (cheers.) Dr. FEATHERSTON.—Sir, there are so many opinions expressed by the hon. member who has just addressed the House, and by previous speakers, in which I concur, that I am in some respects in difficulties; for if there is one thing which I hate more than another it is to travel over ground that already has been trod —to repeat arguments that have already been enforced. And yet, sir, after the able manner in which the resolution before the House has been discussed by both sides of the House—by those who support and those who oppose—l find it difficult, nay impossible, to avoid referring to topics that have been touched upon and far more ably handled than I can pos sibly pretend to handle them. Sir, tho hon. member who has just sat down, and other hon. members, have expressed the deep anxiety with which they approached the subject under discussion. Sir, the case in my opinion is so plain and 6iraple that I cannot acknowledge feeling the slightest anxiety about it, or the results of the debate. Sir, some hon. members have felt the difficulty of attempting to reconcile their present opinions with those they have repeatedly professed on former occasions in this House. Sir, no such difficulty perplexes or embarrasses me. I am not here like my hon. friend the member for Cheviot, and other hon. members, to explain away or to recant opinions, but, unlike those hon. members, I am here to reiterate, to stand by every opinion I have ever enun dated in regard to the administration of Native affairs. Sir, some hon. members, especially those who had recently, or rather all of a sudden, become converts to the doctrine of responsible government in Native affairs—-repudiate the very idea of their opposition to the resolution of my hon. friend at tho head of the Government, being dictated by party motives for party purposes—and would lain persuado my hon. friend and his colleagues on the treasury bench, that in the event of the resolution being negatived.they should bow to and accept the decision of the House—should stick to that bench, go on as if nothing had happened and prepare themselves for more signal defeats, forstill greater humiliations.—Sir, could I for one moment believe that my hon. friends on the treasury bench had not made up their minds to stand or fall by the resolution, to stake :heir existence as a Ministy on the result of the debate,—could I entertain tho slighest suspicion that they are to day, or ever will be prepared to abandon the cardinal principle, the key stone of the whole Native policy—l mean the administration of Native affairs by Ministers responsible to this House, I should readily join hon. gentlemen opposite in this or any other motion that would have the effect of placing them on the treasury bench. Sir, in spite of their disclaimers, I denounce this as simply a party move, and I trust no hon. member will allow himself to be decieved as to its real character and intent. It is to all intents and purposes simply a party movement, or else why should hon. members opposite repudiate and recant all the opinions they expressed so recently as September last. Sir, when I say this is a party movement and must be treated and regarded as such, I entirely acquit my hon. friend the member for Ellesmere, my hon. friends the Superintendents of Canterbury and Otago, and other hon. members now ihe opposing parties to this party movement. But I repeat it is a party movement, and if the resolution be negatived my hon. friend at the head of the Government and his colleagues have no other course open to them than at once to place thoir resignation in the hands of His Excellency. And now sir, with regard to the resolution itself. lam unwilling after this protracted debate, on a question which has been so repeatedly discussed and decided by this House, to detain you, but I am nevertheless anxious if you will permit me, very briefly to explain some of the grounds upon which I should support tho resolu- : tion of my hon. friend at the head of the government. > Sir while I readily admit the importance of tho ques- ! tion submitted to this House, and would most frankly acknowledge the gravity of the issues involved, and 1 must be permitted to express my deep regret that my hon. friends at the head of the government should have so readily adopted tho course suggested the othw evening by the hon. member for Cheviot; ho has to my mind fallen into a trap—very carefully laid, very skilfully planned—a trap from which it is not easy to escape. It appears to me, sir, that my hon. friend in consenting to define precisely the relations that are to be maintained between the Governor and his responsible advisers either in regard to Native or other affairs has simply consented to attempt an impossibility. Sir, no such demand in any country enjoying responsible institutions or parliamentary government has ever been made by the Legislature. I need not therefore add that no such task has ever been imposed upon any constitutional covernment as has been undertaken by my hon. friend at tho head of the Government, that of defining and reducing to writing the relations between the Crown or tho Crown's representative and their responsible advisers/ It has in the course of debate already been correctly stated that responsible government in England rests upon no law; that the British Constitution nowhere declares the responsibility of Ministers, but simply secures it by a tacit understanding between the Crown and tho Commons. I may further observe that where the Cabinet is not a body recognised by law or by the Constitution, that no attempt has been made to defino the relations between the Crown and the Crown s responsible advisers. In illustration or proof ot this, I may refer hon. members to the difference which many years since arose between Her Majesty and her then advisers, with respect to tho appointment of the ladies of the bedchamber. Sir Kobert Peel, the Prime Minister, denied the right of appointment; Her Majesty demurred- the whole question was submitted to Parliament- it'gave rise to along and exciting debate, Parliament ultimately deciding that the position insisted upon, by Sir Kobert Peel was untenable and unjustifiable. I submit that this case shows that any disputes'arising between tho Crown's representative and his advisers must bo referred to and decided by the leg slature. But, sir, it appears to me strange that hoi. members cannot perceivo that if it has been found ' r fan Ojisihle to defino, ar nnwigo to, attempt to defino, 1 thj wlfttfon between, tyg QTO'S sYs!Bf! ffift %%

Sovereign, whp is responsible to no one, . then it must be still more difficult, still more impossible to define tho relation between his responsible advisers and the Governor of a Colony who is specially charged with Imperial interests, and who is responsible for the proper guardianship and protection of those interests to the Imperial Government.; But, sir, any attempt to define those relations in this colony, .inhabited by a native race just emerging from barbarism, must be still more hopeless; for before you can attempt any such definition you are bound to specify and define how far Native interests are Imperial interests, and you are further called upon to draw a line of demarkation between these Native—these Imperial interests, and interests purely Colonial. Sir, I need not say that this is a hopeless, an impossible task. Colonial, Native, and Imperial interests are so interwoven, so entangled, that it is impossible to separate them—impossible to say where Imperial interests begin or end, and therefore utterly absurd, utterly childish 1 to attempt to define between the Governor who is specially charged with Imperial interests, who cannot possibly divest himself of his responsibility in regard to those interests to the Imperial Government, and his responsible advisers. Sir, these relations are of so delicate a nature; they vary so much from day to day; they arc so constantly changing; they depend so much upon the good sense, tho common sense—upon the tact and discretion of the two parties concerned—the Governor and his advisers, that it is, I repeat, utterly impossible to lay off a boundary line between them. It is upon these grounds I repeat my hon. friend has erred in adopting the suggestion of the hon. member for Cheviot, and submitting to the House the present resolution with a view of defining relations which are undefinable. Sir, in making these rematks it will not bo supposed that I am averse to the adoption of Ministerial Responsibility in the administration of Native affairs as far as practicable, for hon. members who had seats in this House, in 1856, will remember that when tho present Attorney-General who was their premier, and his then colleague, the hon. member for Wallace, brought down to the House a memorandum agreed to between themselves and the late Governor, in which were the conditions upon which tho Governor would consent to the introduction of responsible government, I was one of a minority which protested against the acceptance of that memorandum. I then declared, that if the administration of Native affairs was vested in the Governor, if it was withdrawn from his responsible advisers, that responsible government was a mere sham and delusion, I did then earnestly implore and entreat this House not to accept responsible government, with any such condition, any such stipulation, annexed to it. Sir, IJthen believed, as I still believe, that the peace of the whole colony, the safety and welfare of the two races inhabiting it, depend mainly, if not exclusively, upon the manner in which the delicate relations subsisting between Her Majesty's Government are maintained. As the Natives were handled it was an act of sheer madness to entrust the management of Native affairs into the hands of a Governor, who in the great majority of cases must, in assuming the administration of the government of this colony,be utterly ignorant of everything connected with it, and especially ignorant of everything relating to Native matters and yet, who, by this House agreeing to the conditions then proposed, would necessarily be forced to seek and require information, not from Ministers enjoying the confidence of, and responsible to the house, butfrom subordinate officers wholly irresponsible for the advice they give, it might be from officers not only incompetent but disposed in every possible way to run counter to the wishes and opinions of the representatives of the Colony. I pointed out that as long as any control over the administration of Native affairs were denied to this House, there was no inducement held out to lion. •4»embers of this House to make themselves acquainted with, or take the slightest interest in Native affairs and that therefore Native affairs would be grossly mismanaged, and the interests of the Natives still more grossly neglected. Sir, that Native affairs have been grossly mismanaged, I apprehend few if any will deny; that the interests of the Natives have bpen still more grossly neglected, we have the admission both of the late Governor, and of the late Ministry; the opinions, I then entertained were so fully stated that the late Governor thought it expedient to bring them under the special consideration of her Majesty's principal Secretary of State for the Colonies. Sir, though a very considerable majority in this house concurred in these views, I am free to confess that they did not at the time find much favour outside of it, and that the " Pereti" as they have been termed, expressed a very decided repugnance to this. The late Governor, when the question of Ministerial Responsibility in regard to Native affairs was first broached, addressed a circular letter to some, I dont know how many f Mr. Bell; 6'o] of this so ca lied " Periti," requesting their opinion upon it —and thejjwhole of these " Periti," including the highest dijrmtories in the several churches, comprising the chief officers connected with the Native department, and all who were in any way supposed to have knowledge of the Natives, denounced, without ex ception, the doctrine of Ministerial responsibility in regard to Native affiir3 as a villianous heresy. Who were the two individuals who dissented from the denunciation of the doctrine of Ministerial Responsibility? I believe that I am right in stating (but hon. members will correct me if I am wrong) that Mr. Atkins, an old settler at Kaipara was one, hut I know that the other was Archdeacon Hadfield; and now 1 cannot help saying that, asfter the apersions cast upon that gentleman, after the unfair, the ungenerous, the unjust treatment he received at the hands of this House two years ago, after the charge then made against him of an_ undue leaning towards the Natives—l cannot help saying that a more complete answer to those insinuatious, to those charges could not have been triveii, a more triumphant indication of his honor and character, could not have been by himself desired than is afforded by this simple fact —that while some six years ago this House, supposed to represent the colony, assented to the withdrawal from its control of the administration of native affairs, while, at the same time the whole of the " Periti'' consulted by the Governor reprobated in the strongest possible terms the very idea of banding over the management of native affairs to the General Assembly. Archdeacon Hadfield (with the exception I mentioned) was the only man who had the courage to stand forth, and delare that he had such implicit faith in the honesty, integrity, and justice of his fel-low-countrymen —such belief in representative institutions —such confidence in the General Assembly, that he urged, as strongly as he well could, and by arguments as cogent as could be well employed, the expediency and policy of entrusting the administration of native affairs to Ministers responsible to this House. Sir, I repeat, that a more complete answer to a charge was never given, a more triumphant vindication of his character was never afforded to any man, than has been afforded to Archdeacon Hadfield by the simple fact that, some six years ago, he expressed far greater confidence in the sense ot justice which would guide this House in its dealings with the natives than the House itself has ever manifested in itself. Sir, if such were the opinions, I in common with others held in 1850', I need scarcely say, that instead of retracting or even modifying them, we have now been strengthened and confirmed in them by the events that have taken place during the last few years, in short, during the administration of the late Governor under the system of irresponsible government in native affairs. I am anxious to avoid, as far as possible, any reference to past events, or to revive discussions which would only irritate and provoke, without being productive of any beneficial results. But I must be permitted to remind this House that the announcement of Sir G. Grey's re-appointment to the government of this Colony —came upon it like a clap of thunder. But the intelligence was received by many with ill-dis-guised feelings of disappointment, and not a few gave utterance to their sujpicions that the Constitution would be suspended, and that nothing short of a complete dictatorship would satisfy His Excellency Sir G. Grey. It was mainly, I believe, owing to those insinuations that the House was induced, before it closed its session, to pass the resolution relating to ministerial responsibility in regard to native affairs, which was moved by his hon. friend the member for Wallace. Sir, that resolution was intended as a public protest against Sir George Grey's supposed designs upon the Constitution —as a standing protest against native affairs being any longer conducted, except on the principle of ministerial responsibility. So dreadfully alarmed were some hon. members then lest Sir George Grey should take by storm the rights and privileges conferred by tho Constitution—so determined were they to prove themselves the zealous guardians of constitutional government, that, without waiting far His Excellency's arrival, without giving him an opportunity of explaining his views, of intimating his intentions, they, as it were, condemned and convicted him, unheard and unseen, and, with unseemly haste, passed the resolution which had been in this debate so ofren referred to —a resolution in which the virtually dared and defied him to suspend the constitution, or in anv way to violate il—a resolution in which they disclosed the conditions upon which alone they would recognize a claim—in short, a resolution in which they intimated that their ultimatum was His Excellency's unconditional acceptance of the principle of ministerial responsibility in Native affairs. Now, let me ask hon. members who stood in such awe of Sir George Grey's supposed designs upon the Constitution, whether any one of their insinuations has been borne out? whether any one of the predictions they then hazarded has been fulfilled? Sir George Grey arrived, and what are the steps he takes? Does he suspend the Constitution? I Does he proclam himself sole Dictator? Docs he attempt. ;:. curtail any one of your rights and privileges*? . he, fy ahort, justify you \i\ My one of tlw hocus;'.

. ations_or insinuations you hurled at him. Sir, so far irom fulfilling any one of these predictions he no sooner arrives in the Colony, than he proceeds to investigate the causes of past disorders, and having satisfied himself that the chief cause of the disease was that specified In your resolution of last September, namely, the administration of Native affairs by the Governor, independent of his Ministers, he "at once declares that henceforth Her Majesty's representatives will he guided in Native matters, as well as in all others, by Ministers rr-ponsible to the House. Does he attempt, as has been so sedulously and industriously circulated, to thrust upon the colony the expenses of the past war, or to increase the burdens you have already imposed upon yourselves ? So far from this, that, while he asks for a further conuibution of some i? 24,000 for Native purposes, he offers to relieve the colony from a contribution of some £25,000 which you had pledged yourselves to pay to the Imperial Government as your enntributiou to the expenses of the troops. Does he attempt to force upon the colony schemes, or a system of government for the natives exclusively his own ? Sir, I was surprised to hear my hon. friend at the head of the Government state the other day that the scheme of Native Government before the House was Sir George Grey's; for it must be apparent to all, that His Excellency, in the scheme of government he has framed, has simply applied and embodied the recommendations of the Waikato Committee, and the sugges-, tions of the Ministers conveyed in various memoranda. I again ask, whether a single accusation or insinuation hurled at His Excellency before his had been borne out by his proceedings ? Sir, the difficulty I feel in this matter is simply to ascertain what the hon. members who oppose the resolution really mean. It is in substance precisely the same as the one which they adopted last session without a division. Am I to infor that hon. members have changed their opinions, and that they are now unwilling to accept any responsibility in Native affairs? If so, we are surely entitled to know the ground upon which they have changed their opinions. It cannot be on the ground that they are afraid of being asked to defray the cost either of the past war, or of the proposed Native institutions, tor, in the first place, the sum now demanded for Native purposes is less than the amount you pledged yourselves last session to pay. In the second place, the resolution itself expressly repudiates any such liability ; and in the said plan, one of tho proposals of the present Ministry is that the sum to be asked from this House shall not for the ensuing period of five years exceed £50,000 a year ; and further you have as repeatedly stated the pledge of the Duke of Newcastle, that the Imperial Government will be ready to treat tho colony (in regard to military expenditure), " with as much indulgence as their duty will permit, on the subject of the charges of military protection, and the number ot troops, to be maintained in Saw Zealand." Still less, sir, can I for one moment believe that the house is determined to refuse to Sir George Grey that cordial co-operation which he has asked, and upon which he mainly relies for success in the discharge of the onerous duties he has undertaken at great personal sacrifices—in the spirit of the noblest patriotism; and yet, sir, if this House rejects the resolution, I cannot see what other constructions can be put upon it, than that you refuse to afford to his Excellency any, even the slighest, assistance. Sir, hon. members may cry "No, no," but I repeat that no other conclusion is dcducible from such a determination. For his Excellency has in the most emphatic manner in his despatch of the 30th November last, to the Duke of Newcastle, intimated the kind of assistance which he expected and asked for from this House—assistance which hon. gentlemen opposite now call upon you to refuse. His Excellency in that despatch, after explaining that hitherto the Governor had retained the management of Native affairs in his own hands goes on to say—"Under this system there would be two Governments in the Colony, which not only would not aid one another, but which would sometimes act at cross purposes with each other." —Now sir, [Mr. Stafford: Will the hon. gentleman also read paragraphs 9 and 10.] " 9. Another disadvantage of the system of making the Governor chiefly responsible for Native affairs is, that it will bo thought that the wars which may arise under it have sprung, whether rightly or wrongly, from the acts of the Representative of the British Government, over whose proceedings the colonial legislature had but very imperfect control, so that it would seem difficult to call upon that body to find the means of defraying the cost of the war, for the origin, continuance, or conduct of which it was only in an indirect manner responsible. " 10. Under the system I have adopted, the Governor and Ministers act as mutual checks each upon the , other. If either of them wishes to force on some proceeding which the other party regards as unjust to the natives, or as injurious to their reasonable interests, it is known to both that the ultimate appeal must be made to the General Assembly, and that the justness of the intentions of each party will become a matter of public discussion. It is, therefore, reasonable to think that each of them would carefully consider the grounds on which they were acting, before incurring the risk of an appeal of this nature.'' —His Excellency here tells you as plainly as he well could, that he cannot execute this mission entrusted to him, —tha the cannot retrieve past disasters, and establish the relations between Her Majesty's Government and the Natives on a satisfactory basis—that he cannot - insure the future peace of the Colony or the welfare of both races, without the asistance of this House, unless you agree to the introduction of ministerial responsibility into the administration of Native affairs as well as of all others ;Jif this House then purpose to refuse that asistance which his Excellency claims and to which he is so fully entitled, it has simply to reject the rcsoluHon of my hon. friend. But sir, this appears to me to l ie still further inconsistency on the part of those who oppose this resolution. If there is one charge that now has been more frequently made, more constantly urged by men of all parties against Sir George Grey—it is that during* his former administration of the Government of the Colony he succeeded in managing the Natives entirely by his own personal influence, and that as soon as he left, his system at once fell to pieces; those who make this charge ought to remember, that at that period there was no political institution, no legislature which could claim to represent tho colonists or to be entitled to their confidence. But even admitting that there is some foundation for such a charge, wc must also give his Excellency credit for the pain and trouble he took to gain that ascendancy over the Native mind which he then acquired; how he acquired it I need scarcely inform you. He gained it by constantly travelling through tho Native districts, by making himself known not only to the influential chiefs, but to the whole tribe, by making himself, by personal intercourse, acquainted with their wishes, their wants and requirements; ho gained it by himself explaining the measures he proposed for their benefit; he gained it by proving to them, that.vvhile he had the courage to set at naught, to run counter to the positive instructions of the Imperial Government, rather than violate any of the obligations imposed upon Her Majesty by the treaty of Waitangi, yet that he was prepared at any time to put down with a strong arm any attempt to dispute the supremacy of the Crown, he hesitated not to enforce tho most exceptional laws, and his triumph undoubtedly was that he obtained the willing acquiescence of the Natives in those laws, a triumph which he achieved by satisfying and conciliating the Natives, that they were not merely for the peace, order and good government of the colony, but for their own especial welfare and benefit. Such, sir, was the means by which Sir George Grey gained the confidence of the ■Natives,and succeededin reconciling them to British rule. Is it then fair, is it reasonable, is it just, to thrust again upon his Excellency such a Horculean task as that oi winning back by his own personal influence, by his own undivided efforts, the Natives to their allegince to their Sovereign. Is it consistent in us who have in times past charged him with having relied solely upon his own personal influence now to insist that he shall pursue precisely the same course that wc then so vohemently condemned. Sir, if there is one object more than another we should aim and strive for, it is, while not despising the value of pcrsonalinfluencc, of personal attachments, to attach the Native to our institutions, to inspire them with the fullest confidence in the representatives of the colony, to make them, in short, regard this House as a tribunal to which they may avidently .appeal for the removal of their grievances for the redress of any wrongs they maybe suffering. And such is precisely, I believe, the object Sir George Grey has in view in declaring that henceforth her Majesty's representative must bo guided in the administration of Native affairs by Ministers responsible to this House. But, sir, a refusal on our part to share with his Excellency the responsibility of governing the Native race will appear more monstrous if we for one moment consider the position of tho colony (as icgards the Natives) as contrasted with what it was when he left it some nine years ago. It will not be denied, that Sir George Grey left the natives, in 1853, full of thanks and gratitude for his treatment of them—he left them rolying with the utmost confidence in the justice and good faith of the British Government—ho left them at tho same time impotent for mischief; ho left the colony after having, by disarming the Natives, rendered a Maori war well nigh impossible. Sir, I need not ask what is tho | state he finds the colony iu on his return. It is, I regret to say, exactly tho reverse of what it was when he left. Throughout tho length und breadth of the land he finds instead ot loyalty,—the natives throwing off their allegiance, brimful of distrust and suspicion of the * GoYernmonMußtead, of those frieiidlv fwlinpso, Ipa^

j manifested towards the settlers, he finds them almost in spite of themselves coming to regard them as intruders, as possible enemies rather than as friendshe finds the colony, after being plunged into a disastrous war emerging out of it by means of an inglorious truce—he has to deplore the utter desolation of one" of the oldest settlements—a settlement that justly has been termed, the garden of New Zealand, and one for which from his being resident in it, he must ever feel a warm interest. He sees before him the prospect of another war of still larger dimentions—a war which if once begun will speedily become a war of races, and will intrude upon every settlement in this island. Far greater disasters i than these have befallen unfortunate Taranaki; and yet, sir, this House, knowing and admitting all this, recog. nizing all the difficulties of the position, is asked by hon. gentlemen opposite to refuse to his Excellency the assistance, to which I repeat he is most fully, most justly entitled, not merely on account of the debt of gratitude which this colony owes him for services rendered in times past, but still more for the self-sacrificing spirit he has ovinced in giving up the government of one pf England's most important dependencies, and in hasten-* ing to us at a moment's notice in this our hour of need, of peril, and danger. Sir George Grey does not ask ' you to give him assistance in men and money—ho does not call upon you for a blood and treasure assistance—for blood and treasure expenditure—he does not come down to the House and threaten you that unless you are prepared to pay a large portion of the expenses of a war, in tho creating and carrying on of which you had no part, no voice, he will withdraw tho troops and leave the settlers of this Island, at any risk, to the tender mercies of a race who are smarting under a deep sense of injustice, and whose worst passions had been roused by what they believe a most unjust, wanton, and wicked onslaught on their homos and properties. Such, sir, is not the kind of assistance that His Excellency seeks at your hands. He makes no demand upon your pockets, but he appeals to the highest, the noblest faculties of the human mind—to the warmest feelings of tho human heart. He does not come down to this House to drive a huckstering bargain, but he says in plain and 'simple language, " Will you share with me the grave responsibilities which the present critical position of the colony entails ? Will you, the representatives of the people, aid me with your counsel and advice ? Will vou, as far as you can, relieve me of some of the cares and anxioties incurred for your sake, and for your sake alone ? I will do my duty, are you prepared to do yours ? Sir, I trust that such an appeal will never be made to any body of Englishmen, still less to any Representative Legislature, in vain. I do earnestly hope that such an appeal, coming from one to whom the Colony is so deeply indebted, will not be spurned and rejected by this House. But should this, 6ir, unhappily be the case, one still clings to the hope that an indignant outraged country will repudiate and reverse your decision. Mr. CRACROFT WILSON said that three fallacies appeared in the eloquent speech they had just heard. The first was, that Sir George Grey needed advice; the second, that if they negatived, .this resolution, he would be prevented asking for it ; and the third, that the Maories were not British subjects. If he had read history aright, Sir George Grey was the last man to require advice as to how natives.should be managed ; but still, if he wished it, the House did not prohibit him from consulting his Ministers. Ti asking; that the Government should be made more powerful, they were not deserting him, but paying him the highest compliment—one that he deserved for making such Sacrifices to come to us in our difficulty. When the Government had brought the natives into the condition of British subjects, he (Mr. W.) would be happy ,_ for this House to take the sole responsibility of governing them. He would also let the House know what were his constituent's opinions of the present state of affairs. They grieved to the heart's core when the subject of Taranaki was mentioned, and they thought that one sole undivided power was the way to put a stop to present difficulties (hear, hear). They would be very happy to have the voice of this House closed for a time with reference to native affairs ; that the Governor should be allowed to exercise his judgment unfettered by the opinions of others, especially of any " party." Making him dictator for a time, they should return to their homes, and if next year the words " Taranaki avenged and restored," should stand at the top of His Excellency's address, his constituents would be perfectly satisfied. Mr. CAKLETON regretted that the Native question should have been chosen as the subject for the first trial of strength in the House. There was plenty of other battle ground, and he had hoped that upon this j question all would have united with the common ob- j 1 jeet of doing tiie best for the colony, irrespectively of party. The raising that question had placed the ' House in a false position. The House was in a , state of anarchy, for it contained three parties, and by no possible division could the real opinions ot members be expressed. The challenge ought not to have been given by the opposition, and ought * not to have been accepted by the Government. In order to clear away some of the confusion which had beset the question, he would ask the House to go back with him to the time- the question of Ministerial Responsibility was first raised, in 1854. One of the j arguments most strongly insisted upon was this—that • Parliamentary government was required for the good of the native race. Nothing had been done for them j under Governors' government, excepting the establish- ' ment of certain schools, which he (Mr. C.) regretted j to say, had been more or less a failure. True, the natives had been petted and cajoled, and merely kept ; quiet for the time; but they had been much demoralized, losing their savage virtues without acquiring European ones. They had lost that habit of rigid • adherence to agreements by which they had been so honourably distinguished in former times; and this j through tho direct action of the Government, which | had gone so far as to pay them for repudiating their | engagements. It was time for the colonists to take the natives in hand themselves. All this had been stated i much more strongly and ably by the hon. member Mr. Fox himself, in tho debate on the Waitara question, and it was remarkable the hon. member, Dr. Featherston, who now held such different views, did not on , that occasion, say a word to the contrary. The next occasion of the question of responsibility in native matters being mooted was in the session of 1856. , Governor Browne desired to except native matters from the agreement with Ministers, and the Auckland members supported him in this unanimously, but not as objecting to the principle of parliamentary government in native matters. Their reasons were of a local and temporary nature only. They looked to the possibility of an exclusively Southern Ministry coming in, entirely ignorant in native matters, and legislating rashly on a subject which was vital to the Province of Auckland. He had since had misgivings about the course ho then pursued, feeling sure that if the admirable native policy proposed by Ministers in 1858 had been carried out, no war could have arisen. The third occasion of the question being raised was the present one. There were three courses open to pursue, and accordingly three parties in the House. The first course was to place native matters entirely under the control of responsible ministers. Of course that would presently have to be" done, and it would bo well had it been done at first, but he agreed with Mr. Fox that now was not the time. He agreed with that hon. member that they had a tabula rasa before them, they would have been bound to take upon themselves the whole duty of educating and governing the natives, and also of providing for the defence of the colony. But difficulties, for which the colonists were not responsible, ought to be first cleared away. The second course was to leave native matters entirely in the hands of the Governor for the present. To that he was favourable, but not on the grounds imputed by Mr. Fitzgerald, that " we refused to como forward to say what our constitutional position was because of the expense." He disclaimed all niggardly feeling in the matter. Tho House had promised men and money last session ; he was sure that there was not a single member in the House who would go back from such a promise once made. Still tho fact remained, that we owed nothing for the expenses of a war not of our own creation; and when the amount of our contribution came to be considered, he would wish to see it kept down as low as possible—not because he grudged it, but because tho resources of the colony were limited, and he would desire to 6ee every stiver that could be spared applied to the relief ot those who might be called tho outcasts of the colony—the Taranaki settlors. The third course open was that proposed by the Ministry, namely the middle course between the two former. He had an instinctive dislike to middle courses, and to that most worldly of maxims, medio Missimus ibis. It might shew caution and prudence to do so, but men of high feeling knew that truth and right mostly lay in one extreme or the other. He objected to Ministers dividing responsibility with the Governor. The Governor would get all the credit and they would get all tho blame. He had heard of a man who had agreed to divide tho house with his wife, and he did so by giving her the outside, and keeping the inside himself. Moreover, if the House were dissatisfied with the management of native affairs, they would not know whom to blame. The Governor could throw the blame on the Ministry, and they could cast it back upon him. He (Mr. C.) could not agree with the terms of tho ministerial resolution. But this was not the real question for the Houso to decide that day. There were two very different questions before the House that day—the one a matter of mere opinion, what course would be best to pursue; tho other, \ whether Ministers ought to be supported in the course, |tsj bjail thought proner to elect, they

5?

. - "1.-.' l">' ; were put into office for the purpose of settling the native question, considering the complication and embarrassment of it, considering that the difficulties under i which they laboured were not of their own raising, he would concede to them, within reasonable limits, the right to choose their own course, and on that ground would give them a favourable vote. But something yet remained. He was willing that Ministers should choose the terms of responsibility, but insisted that the House had a right to know accurately and precisely, what those terms were to be. Now the speech of the hon. member, Mr. Fpx, had only made the ministerial resolution harder to understand than it was before. It was, obscurium per obtcuriut. [The hon. member went on to shew that the Governor, in his despatch of September 30, 1861, had informed the Home Government that he had arranged to put native matters oa the same footing as ordinary colonial matters, without any' reserve, making ministerial responsibility complete ; and that the hon. member at the head of the Government had misunderstood the despatch]. He (Mr. C.) required more black and white ia coming to an arrangement with the Governor. If there were any misunderstanding, he could assure those hon. members'on the ministerial benches that they would not get the best of it. How many of our difficulties had arisen for want of definite and positive agreements with Governors. Let the House take warning firm the misunderstandingof the hon. member for Eilesmere with Governor Wynyard, in 1854$ also from the result of the late Government going beyond the terms of the memorandum of 1861,' in advising the, Governor on questions oi war or peace. The consequence was, that the war had been called a settlers' war, incurred for the sake of Commissariat expenditure. A more calumnious statement had never been made; but unfortunately the foulness of a calumny did not hinder its diffusion. Yet, it was so easy to give absolute proof that interested motives had nothing to do with the war. The majority of the members for the Northern Island, which might have profited .by Commissariat expenditure, were opposed to the war; while the war policy was forced by the members from the Middle Island, who could not have profited one shilling, but on the contrary, were saddling their own island with a heavy load of debt. Yet, in spite of those two warnings, Ministers were again about to enter into an imperfect arrangement with the Governor. And even the nature of that was only half explained. He would give the hon. member, Mr. Fox, an opportunity to explain more fully in reply, by asking three definite questions, to which he hoped definite answers would be given. Firstly, what had become of the memorandum of 1856 ? Was it still in force ; had it been altered or departed from; and if not, had a fresh memorandum of agreement between the Governor and his responsible advisers been made ? Secondly, how fur did Ministers think the executive oath applied to native matters ? The late Government thought it bouni them to advise the Governor on native questions of war or peace. It was a question of casuistry (and casuistry did not always deserve the bad name under which it labored); he, for his own part, thought that the memorandum of 1856 relieved them from the obligation. In that, the Governor stated that "he would be happy to receive their advice," in certain matters, though not bound to act upon it. Now the Governor would not have need for such a paralogism as to state his willingness to receive what it was compulsory on Ministers to offer. The third query was, whether Ministers were made acquainted with all that took place by way of correspondence with the Home Government—whether any "secret and confidential" despatches were sent [home which Ministers were not allowed lo see. He believed that such things had been done in the time of the last Ministry, and he wished to know whether the system was continued. To conclude, he had stated his objections to the resolution before the House ; he had also stated why he thought those objections insufficient to hinder him from voting with thet Government on that occasion. The difficulties under which they laboured were not of their own creating, and he desired to allow them fair play. He thought that neutrals, and those who desired to leave native affairs in the hands of the Governor, would consistently do the same ; and as for those who had created the "difficulties, he thought it would be wise in them to exercise a generous forbearance (cheers). Mr. DOMETT said, Sir, I cannot but think that hon. members who have listened to the eloquent address of the hon. member for Wellington, and the glowing terms in which he has been praising the Ministry, as if they had achieved some great victory and regained for this House the power of governing the Maories, —will be rather disappointed when they read over again coolly the resolution which was made the subject of so much eulogy. The resolution declares that both the initiation and decision of all questions involving Imperial interests arc to bcfleft to the Governor; and then that the ordinary routine of the business of the Native Department is to devolve upon Responsible Ministers." Now it is difficult to say what affairs affecting the Natives may not involve Imperial interests. It is quite certain, [that the whole question of the Native war—all the institutions which are to destroy the King movement, are to be entirely taken out of the hands of Ministers. The residue of ordinary business will, I believe, be found to be the distribution of flour and sugar. And for re-asserting our right to manage these trivial matters, all this flood of extravagant eulogium has been poured forth. Sir, when I think of such a paltry resolution, embalmed as it were in such a crystal shrine of eloquence, I cannot help calling to mind what yon may see in museums—a tiny shrivelled insect embedded in a lump of amber; I cannot help applying the words ol the poet: — " The thing itself is r.eiit»er rich nor rare, One wonders how (he devil it got there." —(Laughter.) So, when I heard the hon. member, after painting in vivid colours the flourishing condition of the Colony when Sir George Grey left it, and the desperate state in which he found it on his return, made such a pathetic appeal to the warmest feelings of our hearts, entreating us to sympathise with the Governor his difficulties, to rally to his support, to aid him, with all our power, I could scarcely believe that all he was asking us to do was to adopt such a cautious and guarded and stingy declaration of support as is contained in the resolution. We disclaim most of the responsibility for the Government of the Natives; wo take care to say the principal share of the expense shall fall on the mother country; we hamper the thing with limitations and disclaimers of all kinds, and then promise, when we have guarded ouselves in everything, to co-operate with the Governor. Why, sir, if the speech of the hon. member be fully and correctly reported (and I hope it wilrbe, for after all, its eloquence, and ability will be a credit to the House,) and any hon. member, after reading it through, will immediately take up the resolution and read it, I venture to say he will be reminded of nothing so much as of Horace Smith's " pious hawkers of Constantinople, who solemnly perambulatejher streets, ejaculating, *ln the name of the Prophet, Figs .''" Never was such a fig of a resolution ushered in with such solemn and rounded appeals and gratulations. (Laughter.) Ido not mean to say the hon. the Colonial Secretary meant to assert, 'by his resolution all that has been attributed to it I, think he was wiser than to pretend to assume so much power, or to demand the entire Government of the Natives. Is it not perfect nonsense in us to dream of such a thing, when a single war with them may cost a million and a half of money—which we are coolly declaring at the same time we expect the Home Government to pay, or at least the principal part, saj nine-tenths of it? Can a more preposterous request be conceived? Nor can I consider the proposal of Sir George Grey much more reasonable, where he says, in a despatch to the Duke of Newcastle, that "if his Ministry differed with him, he should appeal to this House." Fancy this House declaring how much England should pay (for instance) of the milliohs' expended in war—the whole overtaxed English people to bo quietly set aside altogether, and never consulted on such a question ! But suppose the house, as they probably would, should agree with the Ministry, to whom is he to appeal then? To the people, possibly, who would, on such a subject, most likely agree with the House, and what would he do then ? [Mr. Carleton: Then, he would be beaten.] With all deference to the member for the Bay, I venture to think he would nor be beaten. I think the Governor, with the Duke of Newcastle at his back, and Parliament supporting them, would be rather too strong for this House, even with the hon. member in it It is absurd to suppose that England can allow the whole dfc rection of native affairs to be placed in this House, or in this country, when her own interests are so largely concerned ; and for us to sit here, in solemn conclave, gravely debating whether we shall assume such a power—such a sovereign power—why, I confess, sir, it reminds me of the unfortunate lunatic in Hogarth!* famous mad-house picture, who sits in his crown of straws, and a stick for a sceptre, fancying himself a j king, and indulging in ideas of mock sovereignty. I fear wo may appear to people out of the colony almost as imbecile an object—l won't say of contempt,—but at least, of pity. But, now, to come to the question oi the proper relations between England and the colony, which the resolution pretends to define. I am afraid,, in meddling with this subject, I may only be illustrating an obscure thing by one more obscure. I think we should start from the fact that both England and the colony are merely component parts of one Empire. They are one people, and portions of one great political body. How, then, can you give to the colonial portion the amount of independency implied by responsible' •rovernment ? It is clear you can make a Constitution which shull bear a perfect analogy to the Imps? , rial Government —with its King, Lords, anil Conv iuon? l --so long as its functions arc confined to Jqcfd;

concerns. The Governor represents the sovereign, and can reign and not govern, with respect, I mean, w local matters, which he leaves to ministers responsible to the colonists ; but as soon as you introduce (as you must) the Imperial element, the difficulty arises. Jhe Governor can ™ longer be guided solely by his ministers because he represents the substantive power of England, with its fleets and its armies; he cannot be left out of the actual working of the Constitution. 1 do not know how the difficulty is to be got over, or dependency to be reconciled with independence. The only way of looking at such a mixed Constitution, it seems to me, is to consider, as I said before, the people pfEnglandandof the colony one united body. The colonists have their Executive, composed of the Ministers, who represent this House, with the Governor at their head, acting as, and governed by, their advice in all local concerns ; but the Queen and Parliament of England are represented in this Executive by the Governor, whenever Imperial interests arc concerned, and in this capacity he should be looked upon as representing the majority, while the Ministers represent the minority of the whole united body (the home people, that is, and the colonists,) to bo represented in the Executive. The decision, then, on Imperial questions should bo left with the Governor, and the Ministers should give way, if necessary, as the minority gives way in any body of men united for political action, to the majority. I think, in looking at the matter thus, it seems unconstitutional that the Governor should give way. I know the kind of feeling at tho bottom of tho objections to thi3 view is an assumption that we out here are better able to manage matters, even where Imperial interests are concerned, than the Governor or tho Home Government, because of our superior opportunities for acquiring a knowledge of the circumstances of every case, living as we do on the spot where it arises. But even supposing this to be true, we should not be in a worse position, in being overruled by the Governor, than any other minorities, who perhaps often are, and always think themselves, wiser in their conclusions than the majority thev have to give way to. On this footing, if the Governor differs with Ministers on colonial or local subjects, he appeals from them, if he likes, to this House. If Ministers differ with the Governor on Imperial questions, they can appeal from him, if they like, to the Home Government and Parliament. At any rate, I don't see how we can pretend to any greater power than this on Imperial subjects, so long at all evenls as the English people pay the chief part of the expense that may be incurred. It would bo manifestly absurd to demand such a power on such Imperial subjects, as for instance the regulation of Customs duties where treaties with France or some other European power would be concerned. And I cannot sympathise with any attempt to demand such a , power, with respect to Native affairs, in which peace and war are involved. I cannot understand how hon. members can stand up here and advocate such a thing; while right before their eyes they cannot but sec certain stripes of goldlace (the badgns of a noble service, of whichjwe all are proud—the British Navy), on the cuffs and collars of some of the gentlemen who have done us the honor to attend the House this day. I should have thought, sir, those little bits of lace would have seemed to them shining and silent, but most eloquent and convincing reasons, sufficient to have turned aside a whole cataract of argumentation in favour of assuming such an absurd power. On tho other hand, to come out with a declaration that we will " co-operate" with tho Governor, leaving him to decide on Imperial questions, seems on the principles I have endeavoured to lay down, almost as absurd. It is as if a minority, after being beaten in this house, should make a formal declaration that they would not secede from it, but would continue to co-operate, leaving the majority the decision. And the resolution declares that the " initiation" of all subjects affecting Imperial interests should be left to the Governor. Now this seems giving up too much again: because if the Executive be a compound body, in which both the Home Government and the colony are represented, why should not either part of it initiate any matter for consideration. I think, after all, the hon. the Colonial Secretary's first expressed intention, that of making no definition or declaration at all, was the wisest one under all the circumstances. Nor, perhaps, is the resolution itself, though useless, so objectionable as many of the arguments that have been adduced in favour of it. Mr. WATT wished to explain the position he took. It had been said that this was a party move, but he did not desire that it should bo so. He had understood the Colonial Treasurer to state that Ministers would not consider a negation of the present resolution as a cause of resignation (hear, hear); but they had been told this evening on several sides that if tho Ministers did not cany it they would resign. He should be sorry to see the present resolution carried, because it was unreal. He would not, however, go through the arguments which which led to this conclusion, because they had already been so much more ably stated than he could state them; but there was one point he wished to notice. The Superintendent of Wellington had made an appeal on behalf of the Governor whom they were to suppose to be appealing to tho House to allow him responsible government. Now there was no paper before the house which showed that his Excellency had made any such appeal, but as far as the documents went, it appears that Ministers had insisted on a certain amount of action in this matter, armed with the resolution of last session. That resolution was passed under peculiar circumstances, such as he apprehended would leave it quite competent for the Houso to revise it now. The Ministry, moreover, was not the same Ministry which the House left in office last session (hear, hear). It wanted one very important constituent in the present state of affairs—the Native Minister. He had been waiting to hear from somo party or other the reason of the resignation of that gentlemen.' He had heard from good authority that had not that hon. member consented to take office the Ministry wonrd not have been able to stand. It was right, then, that the House should be informed of the reason of that gentleman's resignation. He repeated that he did not desire to be considered as taking any part whatever in Native matters, and he sincerely hoped that the House would treat them as an open question (hear). He was sorry this resolution had ever been brought before the House. Ministers had made a mistake in laying on the table memoranda on particular points between his Excellency and themselves, the perusal of which naturally induced the question, of what was there value, and vhat the relations; and the result was that the Ministry were requested to introduce a resolution for the purpose of defining those relations. But it did not define them. He could make nothing definite of it. If it were an admitted fact that nothing definite was intended by it, he would vote for it; but he was afraid that any interpretation might be put upon it, and that was the simple reason why he was not prepared to vote for it. He was very undecided what to do. If he were to follow his own inclination, he should move the previous question, because he thought it would be wrong to turn out the Ministry on Native questions; but being a young member, abler men might consider it impertinence on his part. After referring to some remarks of Mr. Bell, the hon. member concluded by expressing a hope that they would hear from the Treasury Bench whether they were to rely on the statement made by the Colonial Treasurer, or whether Ministers had reconsidered the matter, and intended to stand or fail by the resolution. [Mr. Fox: Hear, hear.] In that case, he hoped some hon. gentleman would move tho previous question. The Houso then adjourned for a short time. [Evening Sitting,']

Mr. CARTER said, that he labored under the disadvantage of speaking after so many eloquent speeches had been made, and which had well nigh exhausted the subject, and almost deterred him from rising to speak ; but representing as he did a district containing a large number of natives, he felt he would not be doing his duty by giving a silent vote on a question of native affairs, and particularly so at a most critical period in the history of the colony. Native affairs had always been difficult to understand, difficult to manage, and a bug-bear to some hon. members, and he doubted that even then, though they had engaged the attention of the wisest and best ot men, whether a proper solution ot native difficulties would be arrived at, but he trusted the House would deal with the subject in a calm, deliberate, and unbiassed manner. It had been agreed, or rather, a tacit understanding had been come to, that this question should not be discussed like party politics (hear, hear). Ho thought it was really a great political question, which understanding he hoped would be adhered to. The hon. member for Timarii had fallen into an error, and spoken very harshly when lie stated that settlers living stragglingly among the natives did so at their own risk, and deserved no sympathy. The hon. gentleman forgot, or did not know, that in the country districts of Wellington, Ahuriri, Auckland, and other settlements, the natives were mixed up with Europeans in all directions (no, no). He repeated such was the case in Wairarapa, and other country districts, and instead of deserving censure such settlers were entitled to praise for tl us colonising the country (hear, hear), lie had listened with no small degree of pleasure to the generous though enthusiastic sensiments respecting the natives expressed by the hon. member for Ellesmcre, and agreed with him that the resolution before the House was somewhat indefinite. He thought that a 1 id. r should have been added to the resolution defining the amount the'colony could pay for Imperial assistance in troops, &c, for there was no disguising the fact that a good deal of opposition to the resolution was grounded on {ho fear of the colony having to pay some undefined

largo some of money. Would it not have been better for the Ministers to have said what we could afford to pay ? He thought it was easy to find what the colony could spare. He thought that paying £5 per head for every soldier, and the expense in creating and maintaining a militia should be borne by tho colony, taking into consideration that his Excellency the ©overnor had proposed that the Imperial Government should pay half the cost of civil government for the natives. The money question, in his opinion, ought to be defined and settled, for it had far more to do with Southern opposition than most members were awaro of. True it was that the speeches of most of the members who had spoken, and particularly those of tho hon. members for Ellesmere and Wallace, and the speech of the hon. member for 20,000, he meant the member for Bruce, (laughter) appeared to him so full of frankness, clearness, sincerity, and plausibility, as to be perfectly captivating. But the House ought to look at the naked faMs of the case. What were they, but that the question might be divided into three parts, represented by three parties in the House ; one is for no responsibility in native affairs ; a second claims entire responsibility ; and the third represented by the Governor and tho Government, and with which I cordially agree, is a divided or medium responsibility, neither too much or too little, and avoiding all extremes. In discussing tho question in all its bearings and relations, it was necessary to take into consideration something of the past, present, and future, of the Colony; that, while hon. members wore now repudiating responsibility, they should not forget how the clamored for it in the sessions of'6o and '6l, how indignantly they expressed themselves when they heard that the Home Government were likely to pass a New Zealand Government Bill, which would prevent them, that House, lrom interfering in nativo affairs, and how a resolution appeared on the order paper condemning it, and how, in 1861, a joint committee of both Houses agreed to a peries of resolution recommending a Native Council Bill and ministerial responsibility. Hon. gentlemen should not forget this (hear, hear), and also that Sir George Grey arrived soon after to save the settlers in the Northern Island from ruin, and the natives from destruction. His Excellency Sir George Grey then entered into arrangements with the Ministry on the strength of the resolution passed in the sessions of 1861 and 1862. These arrangements were completed, and the Duke of Newcastle had been informed of the fact. Not only were the arrangements completed, but thev had been put in practical operation, and civil institutions wore then in some districts working with every chance of success. After all this had been done, was it fair, was it just, was it right, was it proper, to say to Sir George Grey we leave this native question to'you, we will vote you a little money, but we will not assist you or tako any responsibility; he considered it a very ungenerous way of treating His Excellency the Governor and the Imperial Government, after the many and groat sacrifices that they had made for this Colony. But the House had better consider the present as well as the past, and tho result that must follow the rejectiou of the resolution before the Houso. Tho Native Land Purchase Department, irresponsible and extravagant, which used to ask this House for £IO,OOO or £15,000, to bo expended without the slightest interference or control of the House, and whose doings have been complained of from one end of the Colony to the other, is abolished, but must be restored to life. Not only that Northern Island calamity must tako place, but the House would bear in mind that it was proposed to raise a loan of £IOO,OOO for road-making. This large sura would be expended by establishments left to be croated by Sir George Grey, and not in any way controlled by the Ministry, who are responsible to hon. members who would vote tho money, and who represent the Colony. He had heard hon. members say how anxious they were to assist His Excellency, and how willing they were to vote considerable sums of money to aid him in the grand work ho had begun ; but he could not reconcile that with the fact, that almost in the same breath the same hon members, by rejecting responsibility in native affairs, virtually said, we will give you no personal assistance*, we expect you to do all tho work yourself, work out the problem for yourself, and by yourself. Fifty-three hon. members — or, rather forty-seven were refusing to do what they were asking one man to do (no, no). They were shirking a sacred duty, and a legislative responsibility (hear, hear). The House, in his opinion, if it refused to pass the resolution before it, would abdicate one of its most important dutii's and trusts as regards the native race, and if tho House did not embrace that opportunity it might never occur again. In two or three years it would be too late. It was a last chance offered to the House to assist 'o solve that problem, as to whether a savage race could be saved from that process of extermination which had been the fate of all savage tribes. Whatever doubt he or other hon. members might have on the subject, it was their bounden duty, notwithstanding, as legislators, as Christians, to try for the Inst time to civilise, moralise, and train in the ways of civilised man a very superior race of aborigines, whom, if they fail to save, they would have the consolation of having||done their duty. He believed that the resignation of the Ministry would increase the native diffieulty. What would the natives think, that a set of men favorable to them should be displaced, rightly or wrongly, by those they believe to be unfavourable to them ? It would only increase their suspicion, and destroy their now growing confidence in the intentions of the European race. He trusted that hon. members would consider this, and agree to take upon themselves a certain amount of responsibility and management of native affairs, in order that they might embrace what might be the last favorable opportunity of saving the native race and establishing a firm foundation, peace and prosp-rity amongst the natives and Europeans of the Northern Island (applause). Mr. CURTIS moved the previous question, which was seconded by Major RICHARDSON, and, after a few explanatory remarks from the SPEAKER, Mr. JOHN WILLIAMSON said: I have been patiently waiting, sir, to hear the amendment which, at the commencement of this debate, I understood was to be proposed by those who oppose the resolution submitted to the house by my hon. friend at the head of tho Government. It now appears that no such amendment is to bo proposed, but that those hon. members arc content to reaort to that method of dealing with the question which will have the effect of setting aside, for the present at least, the resolution, and leaving matters to stand as they were before they provoked this discussion. Sir, Ido not think that this is fair, either towards this house or towards tho hon. gentlemen who have been placed by the house in the position of responsible advisers of the Governor (hear, hear). A distinct demand was made upon them to place before the house, in black and white, the plan by which they proposed to be guided in their relation to the Governor in the management of native affairs, so that the house might fairly and calmly consider that plan with a view to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion on this important question; and when that domand has been promptly and frankly responded to by tho Government, it has been met in a spirit very different from that in which it was declared tho demand was made. (Hear, hear). If hon. members who are opposed to the Government really desire to discuss this question with the object they have declared, and without reference to party considerations, why, I would ask, have they not submitted something which might be recorded as their yiew of the proper mode of settling the relations in which the house should in future be placed to the Governor in the conduct of native affairs? But, after having listened to the speeches of the hon. members and gathered from what lias been uttered by some of them, their mode of dealing with this great question, I am not astonished that they have shrunk from exhibiting their views to the country in the shape of a formal amendment (hear, hear). The hon. member lor Nelson (Mr. Stafford) has declared in favour of u Dictatorship! Well, sir, that such a proposition should have been made by that hon. member is most wonderful. He who once declared that if the right to participate in all matters relating to tho government and elevation of tho native race of these Islands were to be denied to tho colonists, there would be scarcely anything left in tho government of tho colony worthy the ambition of any man of ability to aspire to. Is it not wonderful, I say, that he, the hon. momber, above all other men, should now, only a few years after he gave uttcranco to this sentiment, be the first to propose a Dictatorship (hear, hear), and that the Dictator should bo Governor Sir George Grey? Tho hon. gentleman has told the house that the Romans used so to do under certain circumstances. Yes, so they did; but tho persons chosen by them on such occasions were men in whom the peoplo had implicit confidence. It is true that Governor Grey enjoys the confidence of the great bulk of the inhabitants of this colony, and that he is regarded by the Imperial powers that sent him here as being, of all men in tho Empire, the best qualified to assist tho colony out of the difficulties into which it has been led; but surely the hon. gentlemah.and thoso who follow him, will not now say, after all that has passed, that they have such confidence in the plans adopted by Sir George Grey, with reference to tho nativo affairs of this country, as will justify them in proposing to make him Dictator in these affairs. Who in this house docs not recollect the ungenerous remarks of the hon. gentleman when the Duke of Newcastle's despatch, announcing the re-appointment of Governor Gccy, was first bciug read to the liouhg? (hear hear)—remarks which called forth the prompt and indignant reprobation of the house (hear, hear), Now, m. contiectinfj wjiftt, t| ieu took, platp,

with what has -since been said and written by those who belonged to the party at the head of which the hon. member stood at that time, with reference to the appointment of Sir George Grey and to the policy he is endeavouring to carry out—sentiments which have been more mildly reiterated in this debate, I ask these hon. gentlemen how they can, still holding those opinions, hope to justify themselves to the country in proposing to constitute Sir George Grey solo Dictator in native affairs and hand over to him tho public money to be expended by him at his will (hear hear). Sir, the terms applied by these hon. gentlemen to the resolution of my hon. friend may well be hurled back at them, for I have no hesitation in saying that the confidence in the Governor implied in their proposals, is " unreal and a sham" (hear, hear). More than one of these hon. gentlemen, whilst they have declared that they have no confidence whatever in tho plans proposed for overcoming the pressnt native difficulties, have at the same time expressed their willingness to grant to the Governor means to go on with his plans ; —they believe it will be a useless expenditure of money, nevertheless they are prepared i to supply it. In fact, they say, with their absent chief, " Groby Pool cannot (as we know) be thatched with pancakes," but yet they are willing to pay the cost of the flour and eggs (hear hear). Is it, I would ask, their own money that they propose to deal with so recklessly,, or does it come out of tho pockets of their constituents? (hear, hear.) Surely they cannot hope to be able to satisfy those who sent them here, that they have done their best to guard the public purse, if they hand over its contents to an officer, however high, irresponsible to the country, for expenditure as he may think fit on objects which they, the representatives of the people, cannot approve (hear, hear). This indeed may be intended as a compliment to Sir George Grey, but I cannot think his Excellency will take it as such (hear, hear). I trust I may not be charged with an improper reference, on such a occasion as this, to a reply once made to one who offered money in exchange for a sacred gift. But I do believe that if the proposal advocated by these hon. gentlemen were made to the Governor he would spurn it, and say in his heart, " Thy money perish with thee" (hear, hear). Sir, it is not our money he wants so much as our hearty cooperation in the work ho has undertaken (hear, hear). It is this he asks for in his opening speech to this Assembly (hear). And without the hearty co-operation of the colonists, I do believe that no single man, be ho ever so able, will succeed in extricating the colony from tho difficulties into which it has been unfortunately plunged (hear, hear). Surely, sir, Sir George Grey is entitled to the co-operation which he so earnestly desires (hear, hoar). Surely we are not going to throw upon the shoulders of one man the burden of this arduous work. If Sir George Grey had desired it, when he consented to resume the government of this country, he might no doubt have applied for and perhaps obtained even a suspension of the Constitution Act, or he might have obtained a Commission similar to that he carried with him to tho Cape of Good Hope, which gave into his hands the management of the Kafir affairs, free from the interference of the Cape legislature; but he did not ask for either. He came here with a full knowledge of the form of Government which had been established, and unaware, until his arrival in Auckland harbour, of the change of Ministry that had taken place, and he was prepared to accept the Government as he might find it, and offer his best assistance to bring about a better condition of affairs (hear, hear). But, sir, I shall not further dwell upon circumstances which have been so ably and eloquently described by my hon. friend the Superintendent of Wellington. I have listened with great attention to all that has been said on the three propositions for future executive guidance in native affairs which have been advocated, and I am bound to give my support to that plan which has been sketched in the resolution submitted by Ministers. I cannot but admire tho consistency displayed by the hon. gentleman the member for Ellesmere (Mr. Fitzgerald), whose advocacy of native interests and rights I had the pleasure of hearing, in 1854, when the question of responsible government was first discussed in this colony; from that day to the present time I believe he has held steadily to the opinions he then expressed on this subject. But while I then admired, as I do still, the noble feelings by which he was actuated, I thought that he was going rather too fast in seeking to deprive tho Governor of the sole control of native affairs in order to entrust to the representatives of the European colonists the management of those affairs in combination with the ordinary functions of Government, and had I then had a vote in that house I should have been found by the side of that solitary unit who stood up against the otherwise undivided voice of tho houso on that occasion. Sir, I was one of those who feared that evil might come from placing the management of Native affairs in the hands of the Ministry of a day, chosen by a legislature in which the natives were unrepresented. It was thon foreseen that a strange Governor, entirely unacquainted with native mind and character, might at some critical time be dependent upon the advice of a ministry knowing almost as little us himself of the native people, and that such a state of things would probably lead to results prejudicial to the peace and prosperity of the Colony. But although indeed something like this has come to pass, I think that the errors and mistakes of the past will operate as warn- ■ ings in the future, and that for many reasons the system now in operation should not be abandoned at this conjuncture in our affairs. (Hear, hear). —And I do f'el astonished at tho support now given to such a proposal by the hon. member for Cheviot, —one of the foremost amongst the champions of unlimited responsibility in 1854, and that he, having beon engaged himself for years since then in the conduct of tho affairs of the Colony under that 1 system of Government, should now be found amongst I the first to insist upon the limitation proposed. Sir, I cannot but think that if the honorable gentleman and ; his colleagues were now the occupiers of the Ministerial benches instead of my hon. friends, the cry for a Dictatorship would not have been heard to proceed from them (hear, hear), and I am disposed to agree with the hon. member for Wallace when he stigmatises their conduct in this question as arising from sulkincss if not spitefulness (hear, hear). For my own part, whatever I may have thought at one time of the applicability of the system of Responsible Government to the management of Nivive affairs, I am now prepared, as I have already said, to support the resolution proposed by the Government in preference to either of the cxtremo proposals which have been mentioned by the hon. member for Ellesmere and the hon. member for Nelson. The complete responsibility sought for by tho former hon. gentlemen can only be realized when the colony is in a position to bear the whole cost of its internal and external defence, and to admit to its General Assembly, representatives chosen by the Native subjects of the Crown. To educate them for this is not the work of a day ; but let us hope that the institutions for their own local government which are now being introduced amongst them, will have the effect of qualifying them, at no very distant day, for taking their part in the political affairs of tho country. Until then, I think, we must be content with tho limited measure of responsibility which is proposed by the Government. On the other hand, to relinquish that responsibility altogether, would, I think, at the present time, be a grave mistake. The circumstances which have recently 1 occurred in the Northern Island, would (as has already been shown by a member who represents a Northern constituency) be regarded as a reaßon acknowledged by us why wo should not any longer trust ourselves to take part in the government of tho natives-and this I conceive would be calculated to produce not only an unfavourable impression on the native mind, but would indeed bo likely to act prejudicially against us in the northern country (hear, hear). I therefore appeal to this house, and ask them not to disturb the relations which now exist between the Governor and his present advisers. I believe that these men have partially succeeded in re-gaining that confidence in the colonists which had almost been destroyed in the native mind not long since. I had an opportunity of witnessing the respect and attention with which the Coromandel natives received my hon. friend at the head of the Government, when he, in company with myself, visited that district, with a view to the acquisition of land where gold deposits were supposed to exist, and, whilst lie undoubtedly failed in a negotiation in which Sir George Grey had afterward succeeded, there is no doubt that the visits of that hon. gentleman to the district, and bis friendly conversations with the natives did very much to nrepare the way for the Governor's settlement of the affair (hear, hear). The Northern Island men are almost united in their desire thai nothing should take place to disturb the present Ministers at the present juncture. They have in a measure buried their paltry provincial differences and jealousies, and by a common danger have been driven to unite for their common safety, and I do trust that the majority of the representatives in the Middle Island will not lend themselves to any scheme for unsettling the plans of the Governor and his present advisers. I feel, sir, that, if I were thus appealing to that venerable man, now no more, the predecessor of the hon. member opposite (Major Richardson) who once adorned this house, and contributed so much to the wisdom of its deliberations, my appeal would not be in yain (hear, hear). The winter months, during which so little could hi done to give effect to the Governor's plans Ipivo passed away and the season favourable to activity is at hand, and it would Indeed be a pity if the advantage thus afforded should

! be lost, merely that party feelings might be gratified (hear, head). And now, sir, I desire to state what are my own feelings with regard to Taranaki. I have been pleased to hear one, if not two, of the members express themselves as opposed to the embarrassing of the present Ministry. I think that therein they are studying the interests of their Province. And while l trust that no rash or hasty proceedings may be taken to restore the people of that settlement to the position they occupied before the disturbances took place, but that time may be given to the Governor to work out, by peaceful means, if possible, his plans for the reestablishment of that settlement, I declare it to be my determination, as I believe it to be that of every Noithern man, not to be content with less than a restoration to their homes of those who have been driver; from them, and a fair compensation for the losses they have sustained (hear, hear). I am satisfied that the Governor, as well as his present advisers, are united in their desire to accomplish these ends, and did I feel that it were otherwise, my own feeble support to those hon. gentlemen could no longer be afforded. I must regard any movement in the direction of the abandonment of that settlement, as an unwise proceeding, and I cannot but deplore that any step should have been taken, even by a section of the inhabitants of Taranaki, towards the removal of their families to a neighbouring colony. (Applause.) Mr. FITZHERBERT addressed the House in a lively speech of considerable length in favour of the resolution and of the general policy of the Government. Mr. WELD said, that after the speeches that had been made by hon. members opposite, after all the talk about high constitutional principles and polished consistency, one might almost be led to imagine that the resolution embodied some important assertion of our rights and privileges. The hon. member for Wellington had beat the big drum, and the hon. member for the Hutt had fired off his jokes, repeated that witty but semi-theatrical performance, with which old members of the House were so familiar, all about what ? about a miserable resolution which, while leaving to the Governor all real power, reserved to the Ministry such great questions as the right of deciding whether Paora should have a new blanket or Matiu an extra bucket of lillipee (laughter), that was about the real meaning of the resolution (hear); he did not say that the Ministry should be forbidden to assist the Governor, he did say that we must not fetter the Governor or compromise ourselves by imposing them upon the Governor. On nativu matters, Sir G. Grey had been sent out as a dictator. He (Mr. Weld) wished the house to recognise facts and not to pretend to a power which they really had not and could not assert in the present circumstances of the colony. The hon. member alluded to the circumstances under which the resolution had been brought before the House - to the willingness of members on his side of the House not to make a party question of it. He bore testimony to the frank and straightforward course taken by Mr. Ward, sneered at as it was for " simplicity" by the member for the Hutt. Ho thought it would be well if the conduct of that hon. gentleman were imitated by his colleagues. He reprobated the conduct of the Government in first announcing that this was not to be treated as a ministerial or party question, and then when they found defeat inevitable by a large majority, using the whip and making threats of resignation; such conduct misled the house, and was most humiliating to their supporters (hear, hear, and no from Mr. G. Graham). He could not say what would humiliate that hon. member (great laughter). He had heard the speech of the hon. member for Wellington and marvelled equally at his eloquence and at the remarkable propriety with which an attack for inconsistency fell from his lips (hear). He who in that very speech upheld the former administration of Sir G. Grey, of which he had once been the bitterest opponent [Dr. Feathcrston stated that his opposition was to delay in the introduction of Representative Institutions by Sir G. Grey], Mr. Weld's recollection would have led him to believe to the native policy also, and again, had not the hon. gentleman and his party appealed from the decisions of this house to the Colonial Office, was that consistency ? (hoar). But there was something he valued more than consistency—it was truth (hear, hear), and ho did not now wish the house to keep up a semblance of authority in Native matters it did not possess; where power lies, let responsibility also lie. Did any man believe it was in our power to direct the action of Sir G. Grey and of the Home Government in Native affairs ? Many years ago he (Mr. Weld), the hon. gentleman now at the he d of the Government, and the hon. member who had taunted him with inconsistency, were, with other gentlemen, requested to accept scats in his nominee Council. He (Mr. Weld) remembered well the reply he then gave to Sir G. Grey; he was then almost a boy, and that reply might be called his first step in the arena of public life. He had then said. " I can understand a state of affairs in which it may be expedient to leave everything for a time in the hands of the Governor, but then public opinion must be the check upon his action—he must then stand upon his own responsibility—for my part 1 will not consent to stand as a veil between the real power and the people.'' Now these words uttered some fifteen years ago exactly expressed his present sentiments (hear). Let the house hold to that principle—let them acknowledge the real facts of the case —let His Excellency stand in the eye of the world clothed with responsibility in native affairs as well as with power amenable only to the public opinion, of the Assembly of the Colony, of England, and they would have done more to put things in a true position than if they passed fifty thousand such paltry, impotent, and miserable resolutions as those which he held in his hand (cheers) Mr. R. GRAHAM said, he did not represent a constituency like Bruce, comprising one-fifth of the whole population, but he represented an influential district, in which on his return he might find (atCoromandel) half of the population of Bruce (laughter). He had a right then to be heard upon the views which he took on this important question. It might appear that there was something inconsistent in the way he was going to vote and the views expressed on a late occasion in Auckland, when he assumed that Sir G. Grey had taken the responsibility of managing Native affairs entirely upon himself, and that Ministers would have nothing to do with them. He found himself mistaken, however. He had also assumed that the Governor would have taken to himself permanent advisers, that he would have a regular course of advice from a permanent nativo council, composed of men of ability , and knowledge in native matters; but he found that ! Sir George Grey disapproved of that system. He ! (Mr. Graham) trusted, therefore, no one would refuse to let him have that advice of responsible ministers ! which he desired, and whatever money they could reasonably give to assist him in carrying out his plans, and solving the problem before them. He would not shrink from giving that, as far as was in his power, believing that if Sir G. Grey was encouraged and supported in his policy it would work well (and ho had somo opportunity of forming an opinion, for he had travelled through the disaffected country within the last three months); and he was convinced that within a few years they would bo able to have the system which the hon. member for EHesmero had wished to introduce, whereby natives would not only bo entitled to return members to this House, but they themselves bo returned to it. The runangas, he believed, would assist tho natives in individualizing their titles, and thus put them in a position to vote, and have seats in this House. If they did not carry tho resolution, ho could see the Ministry would be placed in an awkward position, and the Governor also. When Ministers came to the House and said that difficulties would be constantly met with, should not hon. members believe the Ministers to be better acquainted with tho working of Government than themselves? For these reasons he should, without hesitation, vote for tho resolution before tho House. Tho Hon. Mr. FOX rose to reply, and spoko as follows: Sir, I wish the course pursued by hon. members opposite had been as bold as tho voice of the hon. member for Cheviot was loud, when he took the opportunity of making a second speech in a debate which had already extended to so late an hour. I wish hon. members opposite had addressed themselves to this question in a more straightforward and manly way. We were coaxed, by the blandishments of tho hon. member for Cheviot, into adopting a course which I had already intimated I considered unwise for the House to adopt,—that of endeavouring to define what ought to be the relations between His Excellency and the Colony. Wo did not, however, act altogether in a spirit of mere acquiescense, as wo were placed in a position of constraint by a number of members on both sides of tho House, who distinctly said they would not listen to a financial statement, or proceed with any other business, till wo had settled this question of our relations with the Governor. Therefore, we had no choice whatever but to take this step of laying before the Hou&e the best suggestions we could offer as to the relations that ought to exist between the Houso and His Excellency. In so doing we simply reduced into form the relations that had practically existed between us and His Excellency during the past year, and, with the exception of the introductory passage, we used the identical words of the resolution passed by the Houso a year ago, without any dissent; and on that resolution I feel now bound to inform the House, the Government will tako its stand. If the resolution is simply negatived, the Government will consider that, in so doing, tho House has rescinded tho resolution of last session, and wo are |eft without any basis for our relations to tho Governor, and in a position in which wo cannot submit to be placed. I bold that out as no fhrea^— jjot because we accept the

decision of the House an expressive of j a want^ of confidence, for we could not, in spite ofthe mmftc the contrary, from all side. ° f *° House, regard any decision the House may now come to as a vow of i.sure,-but simply as Poeticaljnen, i *ho have had a pretty ample experience, while in office, of what is necessary, and have come to the conclusion that, without a fee measure of ministerial responsibility, it is impossible that we can in practice carry-on the governmenVof the country to native affairs. I am unwilling to detain the House long at this late hour of the night; but there are some few points which have been raised, questions pomtedlv put, and remarks on the sayings and doing*.of.HisExce.llency and his Ministers, which I feel bound to make some comment upon. One point, at least. I hope is established to the satisfaction of the House, viz.: the. entire cordiality existing between His Excellency and ourselves with reference to the relations proposed to be established in connection with the plan of native government. By the documents laid upon the table, those insinuations cast out by a portion of the public press of a want of harmony between us, must now and for ever be set at rest. But there is one point with relation to the origin of those plans to which I cannot help alluding, and I cannot stand up in this House without expressing my opinion on it. We have been told that the father of these great principles involved in our native policy, and which first took its shape in the legislature of 1858, was the late Native Minister and Goloniai: Treasurer, Mr. Richmond, a gentleman whom we all regret not to see here, and none more than myself, as there is always a gratification in having a foeman worthy of our steeL Sir, I should he one of the last men to detract from that gentleman s abilities, or refuse to give him credit for what he has done; but, while generous to one absent man, we must be just to another; and I think hon. members will agree with me in saying that, however able Mr. C. W. Richmond s speeches, and skilful his legislation on native subjects, there is a gentLman in the colony, now lying on a bed of sickness, prostrated in body and mind, worn out by his exertions in these matters, whom history will recognize to be the first enunciator of these principles, and that is my friend Mr. Fenton (hear, hear), in whose talented reports I find these principles fully developed. Constant and earnest, through difficulties and dangers, he worked on, disregarding fine opportunities of personal advantage, he would have succeeded to a far greater extent than ever he did.had he not been Uiwarted by the irresponsible machinery of the Native Office. That has been the cause of half the evil that has occurred in this Colony (hear, hear). I don't wish K> detract from the credit due to Mr. Richmond fci the use he made of those principles, but Mr. Fenton was the originator of them. The principles contained in Mr. Richmond's speeches were not original; they were first enunciated by Mr. Fenton in that invaluable Report of his which was thrust away in a pigeon hole in the Native Office, and with difficulty extracted by Mr. Forsaith in 1860. The two great principles laid down by him were these: First, there is no mystery in native affairs; and secondly, you must work upon Natives by Natives. I hrein lay the whole secret of governing the Natives. It has made me stand aghast, sir, to hear hon. members who ought to have known better, who were members of the Waikato Committee, in 1860, now doing all they can to convince the House that there is a mystery in Native affairs, some peculiar mana, some special skill or witchcraft vested in the hands of one individual who alone can exercise it over the Natives. I will tell the House that there is no man in this Colony that so utterly scouts the idea as the present Governor. He I does not believe that any mam is necessary for the i management of the Natives, but that justice, equity, and truth, are the spells to work with. When we thought we had attained the fruit of our labours by the demolition of the Native Office, thought we had sxept it away for ever, we again find it rising out of the ground like a grim ghost before us. I am utterly amazed to hear men who, after 20 years' experience, had arrived at a great conclusion, turning tail like so many scared colts, and rushing off they know not why or where. It is not like us old colonists of New Zealand, who have faced so many perils, by earthquakes, by shipwrecks, by land, by fire, and by water, to be terrified by this bugbear of responsibility between us and His Excellency. Positively, I begin to be ashamed of some of those by whom I am surrounded. The hon. member for Cheviot and I voyaged across the seas together to claim representative institutions for this country, and we contended that the colonists were able to take this responsibility upon themselves; and it is with feelings of shame and regret that I now see bim turning his back and going in company with the hon. member for Motueka downhill, into a pit where his political reputation must lay for ever perished But, before it is too late, I implore him to leave such society, to remember his first love, and to think twice before he takes such a suicidal step, not only for himself but for the Colony, as to abandon a single inch which we have gained. Sir, this is not a question to be decided by an appeal to first principles. First principles are very well for the philosopher in his closet, but a statesman must consider all the surroundings of a question, all its bearings and assisting or obstructing elements. The hon. member who would look at a ureal question solely from a first principal point of view is like an anatomist who should confine his attention to the skeleton forgetting the muscle*, the circulation, the respiratory and nervous system. To reduce such a question as the present to its skeleton, would mislead and deceive us in actual practice. A statesman must consider how far he has the public mind with him. The hon. member for Heathcote and others have com-' plained of the mistiness and haziness of this resolution. When a man looks for the moon and cannot see it, it may be because the moon is hazy, or it may be because the man is hazy ; but in the latter case it is not the moon's fault but the man's. I have heard of a man who attempted to light his candle with an extinguisher on, and of course failed to do it; and if the hon. member looks at this resolution with an extinguisher on his mind he is not likely to arrive at a very clear conception of it. But if he would look at it with fairness and candour, and assist the Government to carry it, we should have come much sooner to tbe end the hon. member has in view, which no one would be more alad to see accomplished than I. The member for Christchurch (Mr. Wilson) said Sir George Grey was not a man to wait advice in managing natives, and one of the members for Taranaki,Captain Atkinson, told us, among other objections to ministerial responsibility, that Sir George Grey was the last person to consult a man merely because he was a Minister. If thehon. member is correct he has paid us a high compliment, though perhaps he did not intend it, for Sir George Grey has consulted us on every single thing he has done since he arrived in the Colony, and according to the hon. member's opinion he must have done so because he respected our opinion as men and not as Ministers (a laugh). But I judge by the documents laid on the table, that he is a likely person to consult men because they are Ministers. He has a full, hearty, and generous appreciation of the system of* ministerial responsibility, and I believe that if the hon. member himself and his friends opposite should be placed in our seats, Sir George Grey will consult even them simply because they are Ministers (laughter). The hon. member for Nelson (Mr. Stafford) adopted a most novel and extraordinary theory, and I mean to keep him to that theory during this session and after it; for it will tell much in his favour when he stands again on the husting and talks to the free colonists of New Zealand who do, to some extent, value their privileges. That hon. member told us of certain persons whom ho called Romans who formerly when they got into troubles were in the habit of appointing Dictators, and if they did not do what was expected of them, cut off their heads at the end of the year; and from that the hon. member drew the conclusion that we must not havo ministerial responsibility, but trust Sir George Grey entirely, for one year, and no more, with the powers of a Dictator, and at the end of the year I presume if he had not done what he was bid, the hon. member would cut off his head (laughtor). But where, I would ask, is the resemblance between us and the Romans? had they representative institutions as we have? No, they had that system of governing by the whole assembly of the people without representative institutions, and to attempt to draw any analogy between the condition of the Romaus at the period referred to, and ourselves under present circumstances, seems as far fetched as anything well can be. In fact, I don't believe the hon. member had any other reason for adducing that illustration, but to lot us know that he knew something about the Romans, and had read a little history. (Great laughter.) The member for the Northern Division said, " I don't boliove in your institutions, the now plans aro a sham, a delusion, and a snaro. The Natives were industrious decent people enough at first, and so they continued till you began to corrupt them by gifts and presents." I will tell the House what the whole amount of gifts and presents to the New Zealanders in 16 years has amounted to. By a Return laid on the table it appears that the amount from 1846 to 1862, including all pensions, is £20,010, giving eight shillings per Maori for the whole period, reckoning their number at 50,000, or sixpence a piece per annum; and yet he would have the House believe we have corrupted the Maories and inspired them with the spirit of rebellion by giving them sixpence a year each, and therefore says he, very logically, you must not have Ministerial responsibility now. If that be the style of arguments opposed to us, and I think it is a very fair sample (a laugh), I don't think they have made out a case against us. But it is not by abstract principles we can decide this question, but as reasonable, practical, intelligent p|a|n men, consider whether the

plan proposed will conduce to a satisfa**,*!?■? inquire, Will it work, whl it bring about a tJJ'"** or do you think that turning away from m*S affairs and handing them over to one man mfiS* bring about the end.we propose, of wiiu&TO confidence of the Natives bacS to ouSK? 1 advancing and civilizing them. We kava *i? reason to believe that the system so established n?s* basis of the resolution of last session n likehr J* ■• well The Governor will be more likely Z "* oat the problem satisfactorily with the cotdiii , * , » earnest advice and assistance of the BeneUS! Ministry of the day, than single-handed—a wo** 1 in the present position of affairs, would crush phVii^*' ten Sir George Greys. If his idea was ampVSSfe settling the matter by the use of the troops Taw could do it very well; bat, if it is to disentangle intricacies and complications into which we hai» '■■ with regard to Natives, common sense will ts**^ that with the assistance of his Ministers he is Si! likely to attain a satisfactory end than if you &?* the idea of the hon. member for Nelson and mala*? a Dictator. The hon. member for the Bay Zti2 questions to the Government, which I will etst2g to reply to. The first question was " AretLT2 • relations, established in 1856 between Cokmelol!! Browne and the Ministry of that i&y, chaneedorS and is there any other memorandum or notf«^s certainiy do understand that, if this resolution i! carried, they are altered; or, however Oat &» w they are altered by the resolution of last session ~J£ more than that, the Legislature of 1858 *3TSI materially alter the relations established in ik? There is not any other memoranda in existence tu we know of. We have put before the House en? scrap, every line, that passed between His ExceW and ourselves on the subject. The seoondnnZt? was H What is the binding force of tbe Executing! in reference to Native matters." lam no ctjS enough to respond to that question, pat intX, hypothetical way; but, when circumstances ri» which render it incumbent on as to do so, we sbliT our best to arrive at a sound conclusion, if we *? The third question was, *« Whether we know the *kk of all correspondence with the Home GoveranwM?" and the hon. member informed as that he knew tast previous Governor had been in the habit of wntLl confidential letters to the Secretary of State wttt were not seen by his Ministers. Of that I kao» nothing, nor whether it is the practice of Gofaatt Governors so to act; but I am not aware that anrftaw of the kind has been done by Sir George GieyTS have not the slightest reason to suppose that aaytkLw has passed with the Home Government which heS not showed to Ministers. His Excellency hat S exceedingly frank, and, as regards his having t» powers of suspending die Constitution Acta |£ pocket, my impression is that he has nothing of a. sort; but, at the time of his arrival here, there *u H apprehension on his mind that, from some quarter or other, intimations had been made to the Bom Government that it might be necessary to take sach ■ step. I have not the slightest means of knowing hot he arrived at such an idea; but, to show sat thoroughly sincere he was in reference to the main*. aance of our Constitution, I may mention to th« Hem that that memoranda which appears on the 5? arguing the question as to the inexpediency of m. pending tbe Constitution, was written by roe it Sir George Grey's suggestion. I think I ban now said all that is necessary to this mitket, and I will not longer protract toe debate, ** there is one point I must not omit,—in refemiet to the member for Nelson who advocated a Dictatonsm at this period. Of all men, I was surprised to bear him advocate that coarse, for in 1856 when retpoHW Government was first established. I find him (a a corrected report of his speech) thus expressing h*. self:—" Then, as to the reservation by His EseeDean " of the administration of Native affairs, with «a- - " senting to which my hon. friend has been usMtei " I would observe, that in my opinion the Euojen " affairs of the Colony are so simple that if the admis- " tration of Native affairs were excluded, I en "scarcely recognize any subject left to the General " Government to deal with of sufficient importance to " attract one to aspire to office." Whether the sreumerits expressed to-day will prevent the hon. rotate aspiring to office again I cannot say, bat if hon. gte> tlemen opposite have any idea of filling our seats, ties I expect he will find his sentiments about tbe Dictswship as little in the war of accepting office as those those sentiments quoted prevented him before.

House divided. Ayes, 22. Nocb, 22. Bell, F. D. Atkinson, R A Brandon, A. de B. Butler, W. Carter, C. R. Colenso, W. Eyes, W. H. Curtis, H. E. Featherston, L E Dick, T. FitzGerald, E. Gillies, T. B. Fitzherbert, W. Jollie, F. Graham, G. Mason, W. Graham, R. Moorehouse, W. S. Harrison, H. F. MantelL W. B. D. Henderson, T. Nixon, M. G. Fox, W. O'Neill, J. Munro, J. Richmond, A. J. O Rorke, G. M. Richmond, J. a Rcnall, A. Russell, T. Rhodes, W. B. Stafford, E. W. Saunders. A. Wilson, J. C. Taylor, C. N Williamson, James Taylor, W. W. Weld, F. A Williamson, John Wells, W. Wood, Reader Watt, I. N. Ward, C—teller. Richardson—teller. Pairs. ' ' Carleton, H. Domett, A. The Speaker gave his casting vote with the noes. TUESDAY, JULY 29th, 1862. The SPEAKER took the chair at twelTC o'ctet PETITION. Mr. MANTELL presented a petition from Turniui Te Rauparaha and others, relative to a sale of toj^ Petition read—ordered to be translated andrecerria! STANDING ORDERS. Mr. CARLETON brought up a report jraa *! Joint Committee on Standing Orders reMn » private bills. Report received. RESIGNATION OP MNISTBT. The hon. Mr. FOX saidrdSir, before P"»»j£lf the notices of motion, with the permission of then** I will make a short statement with reference totw has occurred since our last meeting. The 2P-IT haps, will not be surprised to hear that the HjßilM; after the vote arrived at last night, and in conmowWl of the general tenor of the debate, have caw"" that the only course consistent with propnetf, •»■ respect to itself, and deference to the feelings of ■* House, immediately was to put their resigruticni ■» His Excellency's hands, and accordingly they » » his morning. His Excellency accepted them,*«"» now only hold office till the appointment of off «* ccssors. As the last piece of retiring iwyg Excellency has been advised to send for the non -2"J ber for Nelson (Mr. Stafford), to aid him the twrtw constructing a new Ministry. I am well >WMt »? he was not the party who made the motion gg brought the question between Ministers and traiw"" in immediate issue, but it has not been at til to""? practice here nor in the mother country that tleman who stood in that position should b«**K be sent for, and I selected the bon. member «f *•£ on the ground that at the time when the late Mffl"7 retired from office he was at the head of that MiiWj and undoubtedly then possessed the confidence * "• party who supported that Ministry, and asl »« reason to suppose he is now otherwise looked ty*, considered it my duty to advise His for him. In conclusion, I may state that »WPJ have retired, not solely as regarding the TOW « light as an adverse vote, for in some respectei hardly be considered as such, much less as *••* night as a vote of want of confidence, bnt became aware in the course of the debate wmcnp: ceded it, and from private conferences with &«*•■"": bers who we had reason to suppose would »*??*? that we had not a reasonable prospect of suchii»»» pact and united support as would enable «*wj2 out those measures which we consider nt ~j!giT dinal points of our Native policy—m the na» which we consider necessary for carrying success the government of the colony. On that gwjj we have sent in our resignations; and as «jßjj therefore be improper any longer to conduct any mere routine business, I will now more the «H"P ment of the House till to-morrow. House adjourned accordingly.

WEDNESDAY, JULY 30, 1862. The Speaker took the chair at 5 o'clock. PRIVATE GBIEVAHCBS. Mr. JOLLIE presented a Beport from ™**m Grievance Committee on the Petition of *W* M fa bert and Daniel Keefe and others, recommend the prayers of the petitions should te graßWa. . Petition read, received, and ordered to be pruwHKW MEMBEB. . g WM. THOMPSON, Esq., took the <»* JjV seat for the district of Avon, in the Pnmncew mj terbury. On motion of the Hon. the COLONIAL W"* 1 TASY, the Hpujo then ndjtmm^