THE NEW ZEALAND COMPANY’S DEBT.

New Zealander, Volume 9, Issue 760, 27 July 1853, Page 3

THE NEW ZEALAND COMPANY’S DEBT.

House of Lords.—Thursday, April 7.

Earl Giev wished to ask whether it was the intention of the Government to institute an inquiry into the conduct and proceedings of the New Zealand Company? He made this inquiry . in consequence of what took place in the last , session with reference to the affairs of that com- ■ piny? During the progress of the New Zealand ! Government Bill, in both houses, accusations of i a very serious nature were thrown out against the company. It was stated that money advanced by authority of Parliament for public purposes had been grossl}' misapplied by the directors; that they had been guilty of proceedings with reference to some of the settlers at Nelson which were designated a fraud. In the other house it was stated by two gentlemen now occupying high situations in Her Majesty’s Government, —the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the President of the Board of Works, —that they considered these to be charges of the most serious character, and charges which they were prepared to prove. The latter (Sir W. Molcsworth) stated in direct language, on the third reading, that he had endeavoured to prevent the fraud, but had failed, and that he was prepared to substantiate before any committee all that he had stated. It was urged, and the proposition was, he (Earl Grey) thought, supported by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that in consequence of these suspicions certain portions of the bill, making an arrangement for the repayment to the company of the capital sunk in the colonization of New Zealand from the future proceeds of the land sales, should be omitted. It was urged that these clauses ought to be omitted'while those charges remained unanswered. When the bill came to their lordships’ house the noble duke now Secretary of State did not express any decided opinion to the same effect as Sir W. Molesworth as to the charges being proved, but he did state that they were charges of a most serious nature; that there was a strong ptima facie case against the company ; that they required to be investigated ; and that pending that investigation it was not just either to the inhabitants of New Zealand or to the public at large that the clauses should be passed. Under these circumstances, he (Earl Grey)t bought the House would agree with him that an investigation was absolutely necessary. The fact that the bill was passed made no kind of difference, because if the company had been guilty, as was broadly asserted, of misappropriating the public money, Parliament had not only the right, but it was its duty, to take measures for causing the sums so fraudulently abstracted to be repaid out of the proceeds of those land sales which, under the existing law, were set apart for the company. In the same manner, if it was true that a gross fraud aad been committed upon the settlers at Nelson, it was the duty of Parliament to see that redress was granted. He was therefore anxious to know whether an inquire was intended by Her Majesty’s Government. He took naturally a great interest in the subject, because it had been, if not broadly stated, at all events insinuated in language which could not be mistaken, that he wilfully connived at the frauds of the New Zealand Company. Now, it was perfectly true that, upon examining into the question when it was first brought before him, he at once said it bore a very bad aspect for the company, but that upon investigating into it he was satisfied that nothing had been done which afforded any grounds for imputations upon the honour and fair dealing of the directors; and, being satisfied of that, lie stated his opinion, as he was hound to do. He understood that his successor, the late Secretary of State, came to the same conclusion. But he (Earl Grey) submitted that that was not the position in which this matter could rest. When the bill went through Parliament last year the voluminous papers upon which an opinion could be founded had not been printed ; it had been impossible to get them prepared in time; they were not before Parliament, and it was impossible to go into the discussion. Therefore, though upon the second reading he did make a partial statement upon the subject, it was impossible to go into this matter, because of the absence of pei-fect materials. But now the papers were before Parliament, and it was right that it should be ascertained in the clearest manner whether the public money bad been misapplied, and, if so, who was to blame, and that measures should be taken for correcting • hat had been so done amiss. It was equally necessary, that if an injustice had been perpetrated against settlers, that also should he corrected. He therefore begged to ask whether it was the intention of the Government to institute an inquiry, either by means of a Parliamentary committee or otherwise, into the conduct and proceedings of the New Zealand Company? The Duke of Newcastle was really not prepared, at this distance of time, to say whether the noble earl had stated accurately what took place in the other House upon this subject last session; but, as regarded any part that he (the Duke of Newcastle) took on the question, upon the bill passing through their lordships’ House, the noble earl had in the main accurately represented the part which lie took and the opinions which he expres ed. At the same time he thought the noble earl had considerably overstated one part of the accusations brought against the New Zealand Company, while he had dwelt very little indeed upon that part of the charge against them which was more immediately under the consideration of both Houses, and upon which he (the Duke of Newcastle) at least rested his opinion tin t it was inexpedient to pass a certain portion of the measure. The noble carl had said that grave charges were brought against the company of misappropriation of the public funds. * He (the Duke oi Newcastle) hardly knew to what the noble carl alluded in making that statement. Misappropriation to a certain extent, he thought, was inauhed in the charges which were made ag.dnst tne company, but the main charge in the discussion last year was this —that in a negotiation with the Government of which the noble lord was a member, and Sir C. Wood Chancellor of the Exchequer, they had concealed something from the Government, and especially from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who had under his consider Lion a me-sure for the relief of the company from its pecuniary difficulties, or practised (to use the words of the noble carl) a fraud upon the public, by representing that they were taking a legal opinion with regard to their liabilities, upon which legal opinion the question of their liability was to rest; that that opinion was adverse to them; that thereupon they took another opinion, and presented to the Government this latter opinion, which was favou blc to them, concealing from the Government fhat they had obtained a previous one which was adverse. That was the charge under consideration lust year, and upon hearing which he (the Duke of Newcastle) did state—and he must still adhere to that opinion —that it was inexpedient, when there was a charge of such a suppress?*) veri , to say the least of it, against the company—that it was improper and impolitic to give that company the additional advantage conferred upon it hy’the Bill of 1; 1 1 year. What was that advantage? It was found that the arrangement obtained (as was alleged ) by the suppression of this opinion was inoperative to secure for the company in New Zealand those advantages which were contemplated ; that they did not receive that income from the land sales which was intended to be given them by that arrangement; and therefore in the bill of last year a new arrangement was made, to saddle the debt of (he thought) £20(1,000 upon the lands of the colony, there being a condition, —the concession of the lands of the colony to the colonists. Ho (the Duke of Newcastle!'then stated, as his friends in the other house did, that any additional boon to a company lying under such grave imputations and charges ought not to be conceded without a full investigation into those charges; and, without expressing any opinion upon their truth, he stated that there ought to be investigation before adopting that measure. Ho remembered bo also said be was by no means anxious to place the company in any less anvantageous position by legislation last year than it had been placed in by the Govem-

I ment of 1848 and that therefore, anxious as he was i that the colonists should receive the great boon of the management of their own land sales, he was prepared to move the omission of this concession, in order that the whole question might remain open till another year for the full investigation ofthose charges. lie still adhered to the opinion that that would have been advisable and right. But Parliament overruled that opinion. By a division in the other House it was determined that the concession to the company should be made without any investigation, and without the production of that mass of correspondence now lying on the table. In their lordships’ house the bill came up at the close of the session, and though lie ( ie Duke of Newcastle) made a motion to that effect, he found it would be useless to divide the House. The decision of Parliament therefore was adverse to his opinion; no inquiry was considered desirable, no inquiry took place. But for what was inquiry desirable I For the purpose of deciding whether it was right that this boon should be conferred. The boon had been conferred ; the question was so far settled ; and, though he by no means bound himslf or the Government with regard to their future course upon this question, when—as he anticipated—it might be again raised, he must say to the noble earl that he thought this was, of all times, the most improper for calling for an investigation, Parliamentary or otherwise. He considered that last year,‘when the question was raised by the demand of the New Zealand Company for an additional concession to those many great concessions which they had obtained from the country, an * inquiry would have been right; and he then stated that he believed such inquiry was necessary for the honour of Parliament* His opinion was however, overruled; and he asked what immediate cause there was at this time for an investigation? He anticipated the ■ime might arrive when such an investigation n "gilt be necessary, and that time would be when they knew the manner in which the colonists had received the measure of last year. He could not anticipate that the legislation of Parliament in that icspcct would be received with entire accord o.t acquiescence—certainly not with satisfaction. He did not express this opinion from any communications he had had with the colony, but in consequence of the mode in which the colonists received the anticipated me sure of the noble earl at the close of the session before last, —a bill for a cession to the New Zealand Company, though o" a different character, and to which, as throwing a burden upon their finances, they strongly objected. ' Before he came into office two or thr e petitions upon this subject were entrusted to him by the colonists of Ne'.v Zealand, and from their general tone be could not but anticip te that there would be some remonst.ances addressed to is House when the act passed at the close of the lust s -sion should reach the colony. He must, t here "ore, say that he thought there could be no obj ct now in entering upon an inves '- gation, and that they would be prejudging a ques ’on that must be brought under their attention by the colonists within a few months, or even within a few weeks, of the present time. After the concessions which had been made to the New Zealand Company, with the assent of the noble earl himself, without it vestigation, he (the Duke of Newcastle) coaid see no necessity now for re-opening the question, the proper moment for its investigation having passed. He hoped it was unnecessary for him to assure the noble earl that neither in anything that ever fell from him, nor that was ever conceived by him, did he intimate or believe that the noble ea I, either in his official capacity or in any priva e wry, was a party to conniving at, or screening any transactions of the New Zealand or any other company, which he believed not he in accordance with good faith or with the public interests. He (the Duke of Newcastle) had certainly had no lime to peruse the enormous Line book which had been presented to Pari anient on this subject, and he Ivu not had an opportunity of reading more than throe or four letters in that book; but two of these letters, which appealed to have been private and confidential I tiers of the nob’e earl, showed wlnUliis feel ng was on receiving the first information of this transaction, and would completely exonerate him from anv charge of tHe nature alleged ; and those letters, all I ough addiessc l to private friends of the noble earl, showed that he treated the matter in the way in which any high-minded and honourable gentleman would have done. Ho (the j uke of Newcastle) abstained from expressing an 7 opinion as to (he course takon by the noble earl in his subsequent official communications, convinced as the i ible carl was of the cironeous view which he took in his private communications, and of the guiltlessness of the New Zealand Company, because lie thought, as it was not (he intention of the Government to propose at this moment an investigation into these matters, that it would be unadvisable for him in ins official capacity to express any such opinion ; but he felt bo nd injustice and honour to say that, as far as the noble carl was concerned, whatever might be the case’with respect to other parties, he (the Duke of Newcastle) entertained no opinion that his honour was compromised in any of these transactions.

Earl Grey was obliged to the noble duke Tor what he had said personally of himself, but he must express his great regret that the noble duke did not propose that this subject should undergo a sound at searching investigation. lie (Karl Gre/) must add, that he did not think the Government would do their duty if they allowed the question to be passed over. He must be permu cd slightly to correct the duke’s impression as to what passed on this subject last year He would first remind their lordships that there was a dis! net un standing in the ot her house, which he remembered referring to in the debate which took place in their lordships’ house, that though an investigation was impracticable last year, since the voluminous papers could not ' collected and printed in sutlieient time, Her Majesty’s late Government, if he was not greatly mis! ken, fully intended that an investigation should take place. The only po’nt arising between t he New Zealand Company and the Government with respect to wide ~ so far as he w. s aware, blame was lino n upon the company, was that they had conce ed certain coni’agent liabilities wide., might be thrown upon the Government. Now, he apprehended that time had set this matter at rest, beca’sc if these liabilities were <o arise they would have arisen ere this, and the Government would have been called upon to make the payments. The really serious part of the charge with regard to the two opinions obtained irom two different counsel was, that by sending out one of those opinion?, and suppressing the fact of the existence of the opposite opinion, the settlers at Nelson had been induced to agree to an arrangemrnt into which, had they been aware of the facts, they would not have entered. That was a point in which justice to the settler" and the honour of Parliament were concerned, and (he fact of Parliament having par ed a bill last year did not, in his view, render inquiry the less necessary. In their hj rdships’ house there was not much said on the pecuniary part of the question, but in the other house he could state very confidently—for he had refreshed his recollection by referring that morning to the records of the debate' —it was asserted that of the sum advanced by Parliament to the New Zealand 'company for public purposes, a considerable portion ‘had been misapplied by the directors of that company to purposes in which they were individually interested. 1 le found from Hansard's Debates , that at the conclusion of the proceedings one of the members of tae present Govern-ment—-the President of the Board of Works (Sir W. Molesworth)—said, “ That his_ only object had been to prevent what he cor.sx lered to be a fraud. Having failed in bis object, he could only say that he would be ready to prove the charges he had made before any committee of inquiry, and he challenged contradiction oi them.” Now, their lordships could not fail to perceive (hat, if 8,000/., or 10,000/ , or even a larger amount of the public, money, had been misappropriated and misapplied, it was a iluty ol Government, from which they could not shrink, to investigate the fraud. If the fraud had really

been committed, of course the money must be repaid ; and there was an easy means ol obtaining repayment, —by stopping a portion of the sums which became due to the New Zealand Company. He considered that there was no necessity for deferring an inquiry until they heard what had passed in the colony, because all the facts wore alleged to have occurred in tins country. It was alleged that there had been a misappropriation in this country of certain sums placed at the disposal of the directors. He said, then, that this charge of direct pecuniary malversation, so brought forward by a member of the present Government, was one which it was the duty of the Government to investigate, with the view either of causing the money alleged to have been misapplied to be repaid, or of relieving from an undeserved stigma those upon whom imputations had been cast. The Duke of Newcastle wished to remind the noble earl that he had distinctly said that he anticipated the time would come when an investigation would be necessary. Although, however, he considered that there ought to have been an inves igation last year, he could not see any reason for an investigation at this moment, because he thought it most desirable that before any investigation tonk place they should be in possession of the views and opinions of the colonists upon their part of the case. With reference to the Nelson settlers especially, he thought that, after handing over to them the management of their own land iunds, and giving them' a free institution, Parliament would be acting very imprudently in entering upon a wide held of inquiry affecting their interests before their opinions were ascertained. A\ ith regard to the charge of malversation in respect of public money, he (the Duke of Newcastle) could only say that he never made any such charge in that house, and he was not aware, until the noble earl’s statement that night, that any charge of that kind had been made in such distinct terms in the other house. He frankly admitted that such charges had been bruited about in public, but he had never heard that they had been brought forward in any substantial form. He mast remind the noble earl, who called upon (he Government to institute an investigation of this nature, that there were filler parties equally interested—namely, those against whom the charges were made, and who,-if he remembered rightly, last year were not very anxious for an investigation. Earl Grey must state, in justice to (he New Zealand Company, that last year, and this year also, they had expressed their wish fur the most full investigation, although they certainly had not wished that the New Zealand Bill should be delayed until die investigation took place; but an inquiry into this matter was not in the least affected by the fact of e bill being passed. He could state that the directors of the New Zealand Company had directly < al ed upon a gentleman who was supposed —and who, as he understood, did not deny the fact—to have been the means, through the public press, of bringing forward this charge, to move for a committee of die House of Commons during the present session, with the promise that a seconder should be found for his motion ; but the offer was declined. He thought, after that, it was a little unfair to the New Zealand Company to say that they had shrunk from inquiry. He could only say that if he bad brought forward charges of this kind he should l ive thought it his duty, when he was in a s : .nation to do so, to take care that the charges should not drop ; and he hoped and trusted that this would be a lesson to those who had brought forward . iiese charges, of the groundlessness of which he was convinced, from tbeir obvious reluctance to press them, they were now satisfied, lie hoped this would be a lesson to them to be a little less rash in scattering scare! dons imputations upon men of as high honour as themselves. (Hear, hear.) The subject then dropped, and their lordships adjourned at a quarter to S o’clock.