IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.— Monday. March 15.
LORD DEBBY'S STATEMENT OF HIS POLICY. The attendance of peers was considerably more numerous tban usual, there being present during the debate not less than 200. The Duke of Wellington was among the earliest arrivals. The galleries of i his house were crowded. All the members of the new Government occupied the Treasury Bench, while those composing the late administration were seated on the front opposition bench, the Marquis of Lansdowne occupying the most prominent place.
THE CORN LAWS. Lord Beaumont, in pursuance of notice, called (he attention of their lordships to the inconvenience arising from the country being left in unceitainty as to the policy of her Majesty 'B government in reference to levying a duty on corn. He called upon the noble lord at the head of the Government to make an explicit statement on this subject, and answer in a manner to remove all doubt and uncertainty. The noble earl had on a former occasion stated that be had not in any way changed the opinions he had long formed on this subject; that be thought the principle of levying a duty on corn the right principle ; and that it was for the advantage of the country that sucb a duty should be maintained. But the noble earl proceeded to say that this was merely bis private and individual opinion; consequently, his declaration could form no guide or index for the country from which to divine the policy of the Government. Ha (Lord Beaumont) inferred, however, that the noble earl would propose the imposition of a duty on corn, if not in this Parliament, where he had avowed himself in a minority, yet in the next. Theie were two courses that might have been adopted, each of them free from objection. The noble lord might have said frankly that he would have proposed sucb a measure in the next Parliament; or that although retaining bis private opinion, he would abstain altogether from bringing forward the subject, in view of thp great public dangers likely to arise from its renewed agitation. Had the noble lord done so h e
would not have offeied a word of objection, believing either course to be perfectly fair and stniigbtfoi ward ; but what the noble earl had really done was to appeal to the country to reopen the agitation on this question. This was not the conduct of a statesman, but of an agitator out of doors,and he regarded it as highly censurable in a minister to throw out this ball of dissension to the public, whilst making: not the slightest attempt to settle the question in Parliament. Assuredly it was the part of a government to originate measures; but the noble earl had declared his jesolution to adhere to the decision of the majority, wbatevpr that might be. If that was so, we were advancing more r.ipidly than could have been thought'po6S ble to the government of an extreme democracy. The moment the noble earl had stated the line he meant to adopt, his words bad been taken by both parties — the agriculturists on the one band, and the Anti-Corn Law League on the other— as the signal for renewing a fierce and hitter agitation, of which no one could anticipate the end. At any rate, if there was to be agitation, the country had a right to know clearly what the real intentions of the government were. As matters stood at present, the public was thoroughly mystified, for each of the ministers, in their addresses nt the hustings, had held a different language on the subjpct. The noble lord then proceeded to comment upon the speeches delivered at Lincoln by Mr. Chiistopher, «nd at Aylesbury by Mr. Disrapli. He insisted that before a dissolution took place, the country was entitled to know positively from governmpnt what course they were about to pursue, and whether it was their intention to propose a fixed duty as protective against foreign corn. It was the custom of gentlemen of honour on the turf, when they entered more than one horse for a race to stale with which they intended to win, and the noble lord could not do better than follow the example. At present, no two of the ministers had agreed in their statements, yet all of them asserted that it was quite clear what they intended to do. The consequence was, a state of utter darkness and uncertainty in the public mind ; and he wus credibly informed that the effect of the noble earl's statemeut had been to suspend valuations of land to a considerable amount ; whilst in-coming and out»going tenants did not know on what basis to make their calculations. A clear and distinct statement would at least prevent any one from building on false hopes. He (Lord Beaumont) had originally considered the settlement of 1846 a dangerous one, and his anticipations bad been verified in the suffering which the owners and occupiers of land had undeigone since the change. But, what little good he had then anticipated as likely to result from the change, had been infinitely exceeded. Whatever, therefore, his opinion might he in the abstract, lie was against all attempts to reverse the policy of 1846, from the certainty that by such attempts fieice and violent passions would be stirred up, and class set against class. He called on government to put an end to the prevailing uncertainty by declai ing their resolve to abide by the present policy, or if they intended to make any alteration in it, to say what that alteration was. An answer " yes" or " no" would be sufficient. If, however the noble earl was detei mined to leave things in unceitainty, he must tell the noble earl that he was acting a part unwoithy of a minister. The noble earl concluded by putting to ministers this quesquestion : — Whether it is or is it not their intentions to recommend to Parliament an alteration of the present policy with respect to the importation of corn m soon as a new Parliament can be assembled ? and presenting a petition from Yorkshire, prnying their lordships to adopt such a course as might be best calculated to relieve the country from its present uncertainty. The Earl of Derby— Certainly, my lords, it would be very satisfactory if I could take thesummary modesuggested, by answering the discursive question which it has occupied the noble lord one hour and ten minutes to put to me* (laughter) — by the single monosyllable " Yes" or " No." But, my lords, I confess lam not prepared to give to the noble lord so brief and categorical an answer. I shall be most ready to give such information as is consistent with my duty with regard to the course intended to be pursued by her Majesty's government on any points which may have been left in any degree of obscurity. But I shall not be led, and I hope none of my noble friends will suffer themselves to be led, into a most fruitless and unnecessary discussion upon the subject of the corn laws generally. (Hear, bear.) The noble baron has allowed me to see the petition, and the number of petitioners undoubtedly is not exceedingly extensive. 1 hese petitioners belong to a certain township called Snaith And what is the numeiical force of those persons who are in this state of unparalled anxiety? — what interests do they represent, what bulk of property is in a state of total confusion — concerning which no commercial arrangements can be made — all owing to the uncertainty of the conduct on the pait of the government ■? These petitioners it appears, are thirteen in number. (Laughter.) They are described as occupiers of land in the country of York. The whole thirteen petitioners only occupy 1841 acres of land. These are the owners and occupiers of the county of York who come forward and petition your lordships on the great anxiety they are suffering because of the uncertainty of the policy intended to be pursued by her Majesty's government respecting the importation of foreign corn. (Cheers and laughte-.) To talk, my lords, of the postponement of the final settlement of this qupstion for six or eight months I being an interference with all the arrangements affec- [ ting agriculture, and a disturbance of the relations j between landlord and tenant, is to depreciate the importance of the ultimate settlement of the question itself. Why, what is the proceeding in the cultivation of farms? You don't know in March what will be the price of wheat in November. What are the calculations by which the farmers are guided in that case ? I presume that even in Snaith wheat is not sown in March or April ; I presume, therefore, that the interests of those parlies would not be affected by any declaration, whether it wpre made now or at the next harvest ; or whether they knew now or at that period what where the inteutions of government, or, what was much more important, the intentions of Parliament. With respect to the amount of the supposed additional duty, I have never known any particular sum specified or even hinted at by any member of the present government. But what ever might be the amount of duty imposed, there would be but a very small portion of the amount added to the price in consequence of the addition of that duty. You might speak of an additional duty of 45., or 55., or 75., or whatever you please; but let us take ihe duty of ss. on the importation of foreign corn — that is, a duty of 4s. in addition to the one which is at present imposed. Now, supposing the utmost possible extent of the augmentation of price in consequence of that increase of duty of 4s. to be Is. 6d or 2s. a quarter, will any man tell me that the question whether a duty of that amount would or not be imposed some six or eight months hence, could have the effect of introducing the smallest amount of uncertainty as affecting the relations between landlord and tenant with regard to the permanpnt cultivation of the land! But, my lords, this is a question (and herein I agree with the noble baron) which ought not to be allowed to remain any longer in abeyance than possible. (Cheers ) But, my lords, there is a large party in the country, well-known, who have declared, in the most emphatic terms, that not till next election shall that uncertainty be removed ; that by the next election the question must be definitely settled ; and to that election, therefore, they, on their own part, confident in the strength of their own cause, will be ready to appeal, and to submit if the sens,e of the country should be pronounced against them. But whether a change of government had taken place, or a change of government had not taken place, till the next election that uncertainty could not have been removed. Till the next election it must have equally remained unsolved ; but with this difference, that in consequence of achangeinthe government the period of uncertainty will be diminished, and a dissolution of parliament, which might be postponed for a period of two years, in consequence of that change, ought and must take place within a period of six or eight months from the time I am now speaking. My lords, I repeat that the period of suspente ought to be as short as possible, that the appeal to be made to the country ought to be made as early as the great interests of the country will permit ; but I say further, that so far as I am conceined, no taunt, no challenge, no difficulties to which I may be subjected, no mortifications to which I may be exposed, shall induce mo to recommend to my Sovereign that that dissolution of parliament, however anxious I may be for a decision, shall take place one hour sooner than those great and paramount interests render necessary, (Cheers.) I entreat you, my lords, to look back to the circumstances under which her Majesty's governmmt have assumed office. The late government fell by no adverse motion of ours. (Hear, hear.) Lca6t of all did they fall by any adversp motion involving the question of protection to the landed interest. Patiently and steadily we have abstained from piessing the question in the shape of direct protection upon the attention of Parliament. (A cheer.) The noble lord who cheered will not venture to say that from those who eat opposite to him in this or the other house, he has been encountered by a factious opposition. By what did the late ministry fall? They fell fiom their own internal weakness — by their confessed and notoiious inability to conduct the business of the countiy ; they fell by the absence of their friends, they fell by
having quanelled with their colleagues : they fell by their inability to muster in the House of Commons 130 gentlemen to support them in a cause which they declaied to be vital to their existence. My lords, under these circumstances we are called upon to assume office. I felt (and I owe a deep acknowledgment to my noble friends and colleagues for so spontaneously coming forward to support me.) — I felt that the state of tbe country, both internally and externally ,J should not and ought not to be left without a government. When that division had taken place on the Militia Bill, which was the ostensible cause — the real cause might be different, and perhaps tbe noble earl whom I now see taking notes (Earl Grey) might be somewhat cognizant of the real cause ; but, my lords, when that division had taken place, and the government were placed in a minority, the noble lord at the head of the Treasury announced to the other House of Parliament, subsequent to that decision, that he had consulted with his colleagues as to the propriety of their resignation or of a dissolution qf Parliament, and that they bad come to the conclusion that under the circumstances of this country a dissolution was inexpedient. I must consider that the moble lord and his colleagues had come to the conclusion that a dissolution of Parliament would be dangerous to the interests of the country. I ask, then, my lords, with what face can any man or any body of men who have declared that a dissolution was inexpedient — who have declared that they were unable themselves to conduct a government — who had advised the crown to send for me to undertake the duty and responsibility of Prime Minister of the country— l ask with what face or with I what pretext can any one of those men or any body of those men call for a premature dissolution of Pailiament, which they themselves condemned, or seek to embarrass that government which, if they supersede and destioy, they know they have not the means of succeeding or of erecting another in its place? But upon this particular question of the corn laws the noble lord has put to me two courses which he says I ought to pursue. He says that 1 ought to bave taken office upon the plain and simple declaration that I did so with a determination to support the present law, or that I ought to have come forward and have stated in the fullest detail my course of policy. The noble lord would do well to attend to what took place on a change of government in a former session. Is 1846 Sir R. Peel's government was'ejected from office by a vote on a proposition relating to an Irish question moved by the noble lord who subsequently succeeded Sir R. Peel. Sir R. Peel iesignpd. The usual period intervened, and at the end of a fortnight's time Lord J. Russell appeared in the House of Commons as tbe first Minister of the Crown. On that occasion the noble lord was called on by the honourable member for Finsbury to state the principles on which he intended to construct bis government, and on the course he intended to pursue with respect to particular and important measures. To the attention of tbe noble lord I would command the very detailed and elaborate answer made by Lord John Russell, standing in the position he then occupied as First Minister of the Crown He denied the right of Parliament to put such questions — (hear, hear) — he denied that it was the duty of tbe government to answer such questions— (hear, hear, hear) — he declared that to such questions he would give no answer whatever ; he declined to pledge himself to a particular course in regard to most important measures, particularly in regard to pailiamentary reform, and in regard to dealing with the Church of Ireland. But he went further, and in regard to dealing with the Church of Ireland, he used these remarkable expressions, " I don't say lam satisfied with the existing state of things. I may desire to reduce the revenues cf the Protestant Church in Ireland. I may desire to endow the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland. I retain my opinion. But the people of England entertain a different opinion. I shall be guided in my course by the recorded opinion of the people of England"— (loud cheers) — " and I will . not pledge myself as to the course which now, hereafter, or at any time, I shall tate on that most important and vital question, the maintenance of the integrity of the Protestant and the endowment of the Catholic Church." Those were tbe doctrines of Lord J. Russell in 1846. Those were the doctrines in which the Opposition of that day acquiesced, and cheerfully and willingly acquiesced. Those were tbe principles on which, without let or hindrance, tbe government of Lord J. Russell, which had taken power in tbe middle of the session, were allowed to carry on the government without vexatious interruption. My lords, I ask no more. (Lond cheers.) I ask for justice, not to me or to my collagues, but to the great interests of our common country. (Cheers.) I ask not to be interrupted in making the usual financial arrangements. I ask not to be interrupted in placing this country in a fit state of organisataion and defence in the event of forign invasion. (Cheers.) I ask you not to interrupt the course of all private and public business. I ask you not to interfere with those useful reforms which have been chalked out by recommendations, given, no donbt, under a former government but on which the heart and mind of the people are set. Where is the anxiety, where is tbe alarm, where is the uncertainty ? I have told you that the next election must decide the question at issue between us. I bave told you that thp present Parliament cannot be of protracted dura'ion. But if the business of the country is to be factionely interrupted — (in this house I have no fear — in the other T hope better counsels will prevail) — if that business be interrupted, whatever be the merits of the case, whatever the judgment which on abstract questions Parliament may he prepared to pronounce that factious interruption to necessary measures, that interference with the course of a government endeavouring to carry on the business of tbe country in the absence of any other government which by possibility could conduct public affairs, will be visited— and visited justly — by the couutry on the heads of those who have so interfered. But there is anxiety, it is said, there is alarm and uncertainty. Where are the indications of anxiety, alarm, and uncertainty 1 'J he public mind seems to be peaceable and content. Is there a more accurate barometer of public feeling than the public funds? Yet, when were the funds so high, and so steady, as »t this moment, in which, according to the noble baron, the whole country is in a state of suspense and excitement? (Loud cheers.) The question of the financial and commercial concerns of the country is not a mere question as to duty on foreign corn. Nor is there a question raised with respect to the total reversal of the policy of of Sir R. Peel, either as regards the imposition of a duty on corn, or as regards tbe navigation laws, or as regards any of those great measures — a portion of which I willingly concuired in — which I don't desire to see reversed ; but which, I think, were carried to an unnecessary and dangerous extent. I recollect at the time the great measure of the navigation laws was under discussion, I warned your lordships against the adoption of it, on the ground that it involved principles which, once adopted, were final and irrevocable. (Cheers.) I made that statement at the time, I repeat it now. I don't desire to go back to tbe law of 1846 with respect to corn. I don't desire to go back to the law of 1842. Bat the case is one which I would desire you and the country calmly to consider, not by means of local agitation, which I should be the last man to desire to stimulate, such as might be raised by those who make more noise than they possess influence, who briug down a large amocnt of subscriptions on paper, who have had, and perhaps may still exercise, a dangerous influence in tbe community, and who may perhaps for a time succeed in locally creating agitation and alarm ; but it is a question to be considered deliberately and calmly, whether you will apply yourselves not to the reversal of your system, but to Buch modifications as shall mitigate tbe blow inflicted on a class of the community." (Hear.) 1 frankly own, for myself as an individual — (and 1 believe my colleagues would not differ from me)— tbnt tbe moderate imposition of a duty pro- ■ ducing a large revenue, and thereby enabling other taxation to be taken off" with hardly an appreciable effect on the food of the people, would be a most just, a mobt economical, and for the country a mqst advantageous mode of affoiding lelief. (Hear.) But I think that a proposition which no minister ought to bring forward and submit to Parliament unless he is clear, not only of a bare majority, but of a very general concunvnce of opinion throughout the countiy. 1 say that it is only one poition of a great question. I say it is the duty of ministers to advi-e carefully, calmly, deliberately, such measures as they shall think best calculated for alleviating the injustice nnd miiigating tbe distress which may have been inflicted by the tepeal of the corn laws. They are bound, not to fling down some months before a definite fixed pioposiiion, but commending those suffering inteiests, not to thpearo of agitators and demagogues, but to the c.ilrn, deliberate iensp of the country, the question would be how to take those me.isuies which, though not abstiactedly the most desnablo, thpy may yet cany into efl'ect with the gpnernl approbation, and without lousing angiy feelings among the community. (Henr, hear.) But that is not the' whole. It is not ouch a question, gieit as it is, on winch I intend to appeal (o the country. I saw with gioat legret and surprise an account of certain proceedings, which were described as having taken place at the house of a noble lord, and which bid fail for making the Chesham-place convention a fit rival for the Lichfield-house compact. The noble lord who piecetled me in the Government, summoned a laige body of his supporters to consult with
respect to tbe course they should take in opposition Looking at the circumstances under which the noble lord quitted office, I should have thought the last object he would have had in -view as a statesman and as a patriot would have bpen to organise an opposition to the government by which bis had been succeeded. (Loud cheers.) My surprise and regret were much increased when I saw tbe nature of the association the noble lord has formed. (Hear, hear.) I see that on that occasion the noble lord was attended by 168 members of the flouse of Commons. Where were those 168 when the Government fell in consequence of its own weakness 1 ? (Plear, hear.) It is possible that their interposition might have averted tbe blow. But not having been willing to support the late Government, they were quite ready to join in measures for rendeiing tbe existence of any one impossible. I may be wrong. lam speaking only from public intelligence. I find the noble lord stated specifically that he had concerted his plan with Sir James Graham on the one band, and Mr. Cobden on the other. Sir J. Graham was not present. Mr. Cobden, Mr. Bright, Mr. Villiers, and Mr. Hume took part in the proceedings of this united assembly ; and in that assembly tbe noble lord, bardly a week out of office— the noble lord the author,of the Reform Bill — the noble lord who had brought in a measure for the purpose of settling the representation — that noble lord agreed to amend that nugatory and absurd Bill, and had no besi» tation in stating that, if he weie called on to form another Government, it would be on a much wider basis than the former one. (Cheers.) There is the position then in which Her Majesty's present and late Governments stand. I shall go, then, to the country when it is consistent with my duty to my Sovereign and to my country that I should go there, not on a question of the kind suggested. That question I shall leave to tbe deliberate judgment of the public. I shall leave it to the geneial concurrence of the country, without which I shall not bring: forward that proposition. (Loud and renewed cheering.) I say I will not flinch from performing my duty without fror, if tbe sense of the people and of (he Parliament shall be with me and shall sup* port me in a measure which I believe would be useful for the country. But I will not overstrain the influence which belongs to a Government. I will not abuse the high position in which my Sovereign has placed me ; and I will not by a bare majority force on the country a measure against which a great proportion of the country has expressed an opinion. (Loud cheprs.) There may be men who may object to tins specific measure, who are yet prepared to join in supporting the great interests of the country, and in affording relief to those classes that are suffeiing. There is another question. We are threatened with farmoie serious difficulties than. opposition to the imposition of a ss. or 6s. or 7s. duty. It is a question whether the Government of this country can be carried on, and on what principles, and through what medium; and when I appeal to the country I should do so on this ground — Will you, who desire well to all the interests of the country, place your confidence and give your support to a Government, ! which, in the hour of peril, did not hesitate to take the post of dangei when the helmsman had left the Lelm? (Hear, hear, and loud cheers.) Will you support ft Government which is against hostile attacks, which, would maintain the peace of the world, which would uphold the Protestant institutions of the country, which would give strength and increased power to religious and moral education throughout the land, and which would exert itself moreover, I will not hesitate to say, to oppose some barrier against the current, that is continually encroaching, of democratic influence, would throw power nominally into the hands of the masses, practically into the hands of those o/ the demagogues j who lead them ? "Will you resist a Government which desires to oppose that noxious and dangerous influence, and to maintain the prerogatives of the Crown, the rights of your lordships' house, and the privileges of [ the other freely elected and fairly represented House of I Parliament? These are the principles on which I shall j make my appeal on behalf of myself and of my colleagues ; and in words which are placed in the mourb.3 of the meanest felons in the dock, and which are not unworthy the lips of a First Minister of the Crown—" I elect that we shall be tried by God and our country." | (Great cheering ) Earl Giey, who was very indistinctly heard, complained that the noble eirl had given no distinct answer to tbe question put to him. For ministers to confine themselves to etating their private opinions, and leave the settlement of a great question to the country, was something new in tbe constitutional history of this country. He contended that tbe question at issue was one of transcendant importance. ( Hear, hear.) They were bound to say, " We are for it," or " We are against it." Beyond all doubt the supporters of the present Government expected a restoration of protection as the consequence of their coming into power. The noble earl had refered to the division upon the Militia Bill aa the ostensible cause of the retirement of the Government, and he said that perhaps he (Earl Grey) might know the real cause. The insinuation was obvious, and, in answer, he could only say the only thing be regretted in regard to the division on tbe Militia Bill was that it compelled the Government to retire before the question respecting the Cape could be discussed. There was nothing he had so anxiously desired as that that discussion should take place. (Hear, bear.) He had greatly desired that bis friend the Under Secretary of State (Mr. Peel) should have that opportunity of distinguishing himself. (Heav, hear.) The Government had most anxiously desired that debate. (Hear, hear.) However he quite agreed that, even if this particular division had not occurred, it was highly improbable that the late administration should have long continued ; but the noble earl ought to have remembered tbe cause of that. The reason why it was unable to command support in the other house was, that tbis subject of protection was for five and a half years made tbe means of marshalling and arraying against it a very powerful party. (Hear.) By the cry of protection the party of the late Government had been beaten, and tbe ranks of the supporters of the present Government strengthened. The Government had devolved upon its present holders as the natural and necessary consequence of their long tnd successful course of opposition to tbe last. If tbe noble earl adhered to the o| inions he had repeatedly expressed, he was bound to have taken the sense of the country with, as little delay as possible. It might have been expected therefore, that the noble earl would have spoken as he did in February last year, after attempting to form an administration — " My statement to Her Majesty was that it would bp impossible for me, as an honest man, to take office without a full determination to deal with the distress among the agricultural class, and endeavour to apply to it, as a minister, effective measures of relief." ('• Hear, hear," from the Earl of Derby.) " I stated, that if I could so far forget myself as to sacrifice my own honest convictions, tbe loss of honour which would be involved in such a course of pioceeding would make my services worse than valueless." No one believed that a re imposition of the duty on corn could be accomplished without extreme difficulty. If the noble earl really meant to give up protection, as on the whole appeared most likely, why did he not say so ? r J he only reproach that could be made to him would be that for five years he had used protecfion as a party engine. (Hear, hear.) But how infinitely would the noble earl's difficulties be increased if, whilst practically giving upprotection, he declined to state his intentions frankly? In tbe whole Parliamentary annals of the country it would be difficult to find an instance of th» public interests being so wantonly sacrificed to party feeling. (Hear, hear.) Lord Abinger denied that the party which overthrew tbe late Government had been kept together by the cry of protection. The Marquis of Clanricarde thought the speech of jbe Prime Minister most unstatesmanhke and most unsatisfactory. It amonnted, in fact, to telling the country to agitate with all its strength on one side of tbe question or the other. As to any danger likely to arise from a dissolution at present, be was wholly unable to see any. An appeal to the country ought to be made, and that speedily. There must be a distinct policy one way or the other, or the country would not tolerate the administration of the noble earl. The intimation of his intentions might be clear enough, but it had been giveu in a manner to create a great deal of mischief. The Earl of Harrow by would' be glad if his nobla friend at the head of the Government could re-adjust the burthens of the country and relieve the farmer from taxation, without rennposing a duty upon corn. In such a policy tbe country would go along with him. Lord Beaumont regretted extremely that the noble earl had not thought proper to give him a direct answer. He could form no other conclusion now than that protection was abandoned as a measure of Government. Lord Wodebouse wns surpnsed that the noble earl should have taken a course the reverse of frank and candid, nnd which must be attended with the evils of Stirling up a party contest in the country. The Eail oi Powis thought that an attempt had been made to place his noble fuend at (In 1 heailof the Government in the position of fiist bidder at 'an auction. He trusted there was a suihcient number of moderate men in both Houses to support the Government in passing all tbp business requisite to be transacted before the close of tbe piesent sesbion. The petition was then ordered to lie on the table, and their loidships adjourned.
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New Zealander, Volume 8, Issue 660, 11 August 1852, Page 3
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5,734IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT. HOUSE OF LORDS.—Monday. March 15. New Zealander, Volume 8, Issue 660, 11 August 1852, Page 3
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