MINUTE

New Zealander, Volume 8, Issue 638, 26 May 1852, Page 3

MINUTE

Of an Intfixview with the Right Hoy. Earl Giiey ; Hen Majlsty's Phincipal Secretary of Stati rou the Colonies, on iiie SuujEcr of TiiansporTATION. On tbe 25th of last month I waited upon Earl Grey, by appointment, at the Colonial Office, for the purpose of urging upon his loidship the expediency of discontinuing transportation to the Australian Colonies. ] enjoyed at the interview, at which Mr. Fiederick Peel was also present, a veiy favourable opportunity ol drawing attention to the question on its more importanl heatings, hut as the fact's and arguments adducible in support of our just claims are already known to my fellow-colonists, it does not seem necessary that 1 should give more than a brief outline of the remarkf which I felt called upon to make on the occasion. M} minute, however, of Earl Grey's statement in reply, having bfen kindly corrected by his lordship, at mj request, may be regarded as a full expression of the views and intentions of her Majesty's Government] with respect to transportation. I commenced my remaiks by reminding 1 his lordship of the circumstances under which transportation to New South Wales was discontinued, and Van Diemen's Land made the sole receptacle of British criminals. ] adverted at considerable length to tbe fearful moral and social evils which transportation had entailed upon that colony. I referred to his lordohip's own speeches in tbe House of Peeis. in the years of 1846 and 1847, in illustratiou of the horrors of the system, and of the | absolute ruin with which it was fraught as regarded tht free population of the Island. I assured'bis lordshir. that however salutary the change of penal discipline which had since been made, it was vain to expect tha any system whatever would be effectual in reforming the hmdened and incorrigible villians now sent out ai transported offendeis; that fhe intolerable grievance acknowli dgedly suffered by the free settleis at the tirrn referred to, remained almost wholly unabated, and tha they could neither be redressed nor mitigated in ani material degree so long as transpoitation was continued under any form or designation whatsoever. la proof o this assertion I relerred, at considerable length, to th opinions of the clergy of all denominations, and of th respectable free inhabitants ol the Island of ever grade, as expressed in their frequent petitions to th Queen and both Houses of Parliament; as well as t my own experience of the numbers of virtuous farailie who weie compelled at any sacrifice to abandon such i scene of vice and infamy as Van Diemen's Land pre sents, and seek a home in the colony of Victoria, pointed out that Tasmania having long since becom full to overflowing with criminals, immense nuinben had passed over, as they obtained conditional pardon* to Port Phillip, where, under the guise of free men they entered unchecked upon new scenes of vice demoralization, and crime. I mentioned that as i natural consequence of this state of things, more thai seven-tenths of all the crime of the colony of Victori was committed by these manumitted felons, and that a improvidence and disease are ever allied to depravit; and vice, our benevolent institutions were overburdenei with their maintenance ; thus, not only entailing upoi us enormously increased taxation for police and gaols but exhausting our charities for the relief of tin diseased aad debilitated criminal population of thi mother country. I remarked that it had been customarj of late for the Governor of Van Diemen's Land t< grant conditional pardons, available in all the Austra Han Colonies, to entire ship loads of convicts immedi ately on their arrival ; and that as tbe expense of tbeii crossing over to Port Pbillip was purely nominal— \ from whence they might make their way eiiher to New South Wales or South Australia at pleasure — the pledge given to the former of these colonies, tha British criminals should not be landed on their shoiet without their consent, and the exemption enjoyed bj the other from the like calamity under Act of Parha ment, were now scarcely even colourably respected. I I entreated his lordship to reflect upon the fearful conse quences to the well-being of society which must rpsuli from the congregation at the New South Wales golt fields of the hordes of hardened villians who were pre viously scattered over all the Australian colonies, anc upon the powerful incentive to crime in this country which transportation to such a country must hold out I then took occasion to advert to tbe formation of the Australasian Anti-Transportation League, to tin remarkable unanimity which prevails in the coloniei mentioned on the subject of transpoitation, as evincec by the proceedings at their public meetings, and tin extraordinary support which the League has obtained from all sects and classes of the community. I said that in the colony of Victoria the inhabitants wen opposed, to a man, to tbe continuance of tians poitation under any form; that in South Australia 1 believed a precisely similar state of things obtained tqat iv New South Wales, with n few inconsiderable exceptions at Moreton Bay, a like unanimity prevailed even among those who formerly advocated transportation, being now most strenuous in their efforts to pre vent its resumption ; and that in Van Diemen's Land ] was credibly informed not a single representative woult be returned to the new Legislature who was nol pledged to oppose the system to the utmost of hif power. I warned his lordship, under these circunv stances, that he might expect the Legislatures of al the colonies named would, in their very first sessions enter rery strong protests against the reception ol British criminals upon any terms, and in no instance would the protest be stronger or more indignant than that placed on record by the Legislature of Var Diemen's Land. It therefore seemed, I said, that at the principal of not compelling a colony to accept convicts against the expressed wish of its Legislature, had I already been laid down and acted upon with regard t< the other Australian Colonies, Van Diemen's Lane would become entitled to a like exemption as soon a: its elective Legislature had arrived at a decision adveisc LfaJytbe continuance of the system. I informed Lore igby that, as 1 came before him in a spirit, not of iebut of earnest entreaty, I purposely Hjpfrftined from adverting to any of the unfonunati LaSjsttnderstandings which had aiisen between his lord<|uip and the colonists in tbe previous discussion of this question; but I did not feel justified in conceahn< from him the fact, that the grievances inflicted upoi the free inhabitants of all the colonies by banspoitatioj taken in connexion with the continued refusal of he Majesty's government to affotd them any redress, ha< fit length producod such an extent of initation in th public mind, (hat I was satisfied the state of interim tranquillity and perfect understanding between th colonists nnd the mother country, so essential to gooi government, could never b« maintained m the Austra han colonies until the abolition of transpoitntion wa unconditionally conceded. I therefore concluded b' earnestly entreating his, Lordship, as a measuie alik

of justic, morality, ami sound pohcj r , to recommend to her Majesty the ie?ocation of tucli ordeis in Council as admits of the transportation of British criminals to any part of the Austidlun colonies. Ejil Grey stated in reply, tliat ha still adhered to opinions which he expressed in the year 1846 and 1847 with rpgard to the then state of the penal establishment of Van Diemen's Land. Great evils had unquestionably grown up under the piobation system, which obtained prior to that time. The government had, however, been most zealous in their efforts, not only to correct these evils, but to prevent thtir recurrence in future. With this view a complete changf had been made in our penal discipline, both in tliis country and in the colony, so that he felt assuieed it would now be found to work most advantageously as e f -gards the reformation of the criminal, and not, on the whole, injuriously as regards even the moral welfare of the inhabitants of Van Diemen's Land. It must be expected that some evils of the kind described by Mr. King would result to the free settlers so long as Van Diemen's Land continued to be a penal colony ; but these he was convinced were very much over-raied by the opponents of transportation, and, indeed, were more than countei balanced by the advantages which the inhabitants derived from the supply of cheap labour by means of convicts. This was a great advantage to the colonists, not only in a pecuniary point of view, but because it had been shown by experience in all the colonies that extravagant wages, occasioned bv a deficient supply of labour, were not favourable to the moral improvement of the population; and it was very doubtful whether, comparing the advantages and disadvantages, the colony did not gam more than it lost, as to the morality of the population, from the continuance of transportation on the present footing. That, on the other hand, there could be no doubt that it would suffer most seriously in its pecuniary mteiests, probably to the extent of ruin to the majority of the landowners, from losing both the advantages of cheap labour and that of the large convict expenditure. That this expendi'ure had been made more beneficial than formerly to the colony, by the very important concessions recently made by the Government in remitting the amount chargeable against the colony for the maintenance of prisoners employed in the formation of roads, and the execution of other public worts in the island. That under the new system of convict management, crime was not found to be at all prevalent in the colony ; on the contrary, it was universally admitted that nowhere did there exist moie perfect security for persons and property, and the criminal returns of Van Diemen's Land would bear not a very unfavourable compurison with even those of the ongi nally free colony of South Australia. Besides his lordship remarked, it appeared that the settlers of Van Diemen'e Land generally were still quite ready to avail themselves of the services of all the convicts at the disposal of the Government. In them they found a cheap and very useful description of labour ; and so grpat was thp demand for convicts, thnt those sent out by recent ships were taken into private service immediately on their arrival. Lord Grey added, that it must be borne in mind that Van Diemen's Land had been originally established as a convict colony, at an immense expense to this country. That the hope of gain had attracted to its shores a number of free settlers, some of whom, having grown rich upon convict labour and convict expenditure, weie now urgent in their demands that tiansportation should absolutely cease. But Her Majesty's Government could not recognise the justice of a claim prelerred under s,"ch circumstance- 1 . In accordance with the hopes fiS'ld out by the Government, in 1847, a gieat and most salutary reformation had thus been wrought in our penal system, but it certainly had never contemplated au abandonment of transportation ; undeistanding by that word, thu ultimate removal of offenders to Australia. There could be no doubt but thrit if the gold discoveries in New South Wales prove as extensive as we were led to expect, the people of Van Diemen's Land would soon discover the advantages which they possessed over the other Aus ralian colonies, in having, through their convict establishments, an abundant supply of cheap labour, when free servants could not be obtained at any price. With regard to the colony of Victoria, his lordship remarked, that it mainly owed its origin and its riches to th 3 neighbouring penal settlements of New South Walesand Van Diemen's Land. It was from tkemthat its first settlers came, bringing with them those flocks and herds which have since pioved such a source of wealth !to the colony. The inhabitants of Victoria having therefore voluntarily located themselves in the vicinity I of penal colonies, for the sake of the advantages arising from that viciuity .could not now with any show of reason or justice, demand that transportation thereto should be abandoned to suit their convenience. No doubt, under the foimer system of penal discipline, many men of desperate character did find their wayfiom Van Diemen'e Land to Port Phillip ; but under the reformed system, a very different state of things would be found to exist, The criminals now sent out would be found at the termination of their punishment a very much better class of men than those formerly transported without any previous training, and then still further corrupted by being placed in the probationary gangs. Those now sent out, after having passed through the discipline oi Pentonville and Portland, would, indeed, in many inI stances,-be found to bear a very favourable comparison with the free emigrants who went out under the bounty system. He had, therefore, no doubt, that when the convicts, who would shortly be entitled to their conditional pardons, under the new penal system made their way to Victoria, they would be found to be by no means an objectionable set of men, but a valuable addition to the labour market. It was a great mistakp, his lordship said, to imagine that because men were couvicted of serious offences they were less likely to become reformed characters under a salutary bystem of penal discipline, than those sentenced for more trifling crimes. It often happened that the most inveterate and hardened criminals were transported in consequence of conviction of some slight offence, and that on the other hand men not habit ua Icriminals, were transported forgiave offences committed in a moment of passion. The history of the colony of New South Wales showed indeed, that instead of its being true that convicts sentenced for the slightest offences behaved the beat, precisely the reverse was the case and that the men transpoiled underlongsentencesand therefore for serious crimes, was a 9 a body the best conducted. Some of the most respectable of the emancipists in that settlement were originally transported for crimes of a very high character, while it was actually matter of complaint during the administration of Governor Darling that most of the offences were committed by the short sentence men, who were the most difficult to manage. His lordship observed that in s°nding convicts of colonies where penal establishments did not already exist, the government had acted on the principle of being guided by the wishes of the inhabitants, but that the rule could not be held to apply to an otiginally convict colony like Van Diemen's Land. The people of Western Australia had petitioned that convicts might be sent there, and a few were accordingly sent, who were found to be very acreptable to the colonists. Victoria not having had a Legislative Council uutil now, was not in a position to pronounce a separate opinion upon the subject. By the Legislative Council of New South Wales it had, however, been determined that no convicts should be received by that colony, and the order in Council constituting it a place to which British criminals might be sent was consequently revoked. It did not seem, nevertheless, that the inhabitants of the colony of New Souih Wales were at all unanimous in their rejection of convicts, a petition having been received by the Government, signed by a large pioportion of the most respectable owners and occupiprs of land in the not them or Moreton Bay Diitnct of the colony, praying that it might be separated from New South Wales, with the view of being converted into a penal settlement. Under all these circumstances, his loidship said he could hold out no hope that transpoitation to the originally convict colony of Van Diemen's Land would be abandoned, nor that the Government would not continue to Bend transported offenders to such other of the Australian Colonies as had consented, or might hereafter consent to receive them. I ventuied to remark, in reply to his lordship's observations that we difterred so very widely upon the whole question, both as regardod matters of fact and inference, that it did not seem, even if time permitted that any good could possibly result from a further discussion of the subject. I was unwilling, however, to allow his lordship's remark, that the convicts " now sent out would, indeed, in many instances bear favourable comparison with the free emigrants who went out under the bounty systems," to pa^s unnoticed. No opinion, I asbured his lordship, could be more eironeous, no remark more thoroughly unjust. The free emigrants whocamo out to us under the bounty Bvsiem weie, I said, generally speaking, a very industiious and icputable class of people. The con'ictd, on the contraiy, were hardened, incoriigihle villains of th« blackest possible dye; men gcneially «)>uaking, tianspoited for offences for which they would tin mot ly lifnc been executed. Jn suppoit of this position, I handed to hi 3 lordship a return showing that of pighty-hve per aona who were suffering on tlie3lst of Dec., last, uude-

sentences of the Supreme Court for dimes committed in the colony, only nme had arrived in. the district as free emigrants. On the termination of the interview, I thanked bis lordship for the very kind and nttentive manner in. which he had listened to my remarks as well as for the full exposition lip had be<<n pleased to give of the views md intentions of government on thu subject'; but I, at the same time expressed my regret that I had been so utteily unsuccessful in my endeavours to persuade bis lordship to abandon a line of policy so opposed to tbe wishes, and utterly ruinous to the best interests of tha inhabitants of tbe Australian Colonies. 10ih Dec. 1351. John C. Kino. N.B. — Tbe printing of tbe above minute lias been delayed to admit of die manuscript of Earl Grey's reply being corrected by Ihs Lordship.

The Crystal Palace by Moonlight. — A writer in the Times enjoyed the enviable opportunity of visiting the interior by moonlight. Here is his accoimt of how it looked : — "We wished to see the aspect of the interior under the influence of a fine clear moonlight, to observe how each object of interest varied in expression when looked, at through a new medium, to contrast with the bustle and thronging excitement of the day — the effects of silence, solitude and darkness. Let the reader accompany us in our survey, and share in the impressions which it produced. Entering by the south transept, shortly before ten o'clock, the moon, now nearly full, was shiningthrough its arched and transparent roof. Standing in deep shadow M'Dowall's Eve was seen, among other objects, upon the left, looking more beautiful in form from the surrounding obscurity. In the centre everything was plainly revealed, the pinnacles of the crystal fountain appeared tipped with silver, and in the basin below, the ribs and sash bars overhead, and the sky beyond them, and portions of the adjacent galleries, and the occasional glimmer of gas-lights, were all reflected with marvellous distinctness. The jets of the fountain no longer played, and the stillness of all around was unbroken. An air of solemn repose pervaded the vast area ; the very statues seemed to rest from the excitement oi the day, and to slumber peaceably on their pedestals. Some wore enveloped in white coverings, which, in the doubtful light, gave them a sufficiently ghostly appearance ; others remained unprotected from the chilling night air, and braved exposure to cold, as they have already, we hope, successfully done to criticism. At one point of intersection between the nave and transept Virginius, under the flare of a gas-lamp from the China compartment, brandished the knife with which he had sacrificed his daughter. At another corner, and under a similar dispensation of light from Persia a cavalier (Lord Vaulkland) leaned upon his sword, and appeared to be calculating the number of people that had passed him during the day. Of Turkey and Egypt we could only see at the entrance the faint glitter of Damascus blades and of brocaded muslins and trappings. All beyond was buried in darkness and mystery. The shades of night, too, fell heavily upon Greece, Spain, and Italy, though behind them through the open girders gleams of unexplained light were seen rising. The zinc statue of the Queen rested in grateful obscurity, and Lemomiiere's jewel case had cautiously been stripped of its attraction?. On the metal pipes of Dv Croquot's organ some struggling moonbeams played, though without evoking any sound. The colossal group of Cain and his family looked well in a gloom which seemed suited to his expression of guilt qualified by the traces of human affection. So it was all down the eastern nave. The shadows of night which fell heavily on some points were strangely relieved at intervals by gas, which carried the eye forward over intervening objects to those immediately around it. Instead of looking at those things which lay nearest, attention was directed to distant and out of the way spots, brought into prominence by the light streaming upon them. Where during the day one would notice a specimen of wood carving, or a collection of bronzes or pottery, his sight was attracted to the fiame of some country suspended above its products, or to the undersides of gallery floor boards, rendered sightly by Owen Jones's plan of decoration. Policemen in list-slippers might occasionally be seen flitting noiselessly to a point whence the strangers might be reconnoitred, or suddenly emerging from behind some dark object where they had remained for a time cautiously stowed away. If a court was entered, or a divergence made to the right or to the left, the quick eyes and the scarcely discernible footfall of some member of "the force" followed. Over the whole interior a profound silence reigned, broken only at intervals as the clocks of the biyilding rang out slowly the advancing hour. Turning towards the western half of the interior, huge envelopes of calico concealed most of the objects facing the nave, but large trophies in the centre remained uncovered, and looked solemn and grand in the dim neutral light which prevaled. The Italian Shirts of mail, and the model prahus of the East, were favoured by the beams of the moon. The chandeliers of Apsley Pellatt and Co. caught the eye in passing, and glistened as if anxious to have their illuminating properties tested. Glimpses were again caiight of remote galleries, brought into prominence by gas-lamps. In soma places light shone, though whence it came appeared a mystery. In otnera there was almost a Cimmerian darkness. The contributions to the carriage department were swathed in calico, while the gigantic locomotives disdained any covering, and re&ted in grim repose. The activity of mules, spinning-frames, and looms was hushed, the whirl of driving-wheels was silent, and amidst the whole of that usually noisy department dedicated to machinery in motion, the only sound we heard was that of a cricket, chirruping away merrily amidst Whitworth's tools."