CHURCH OF ENGLAND MEETING.

New Zealander, Volume 8, Issue 633, 8 May 1852, Page 3

CHURCH OF ENGLAND MEETING.

A Pnnuc MrrTivo of Members of tile Churcli of England, to take into consideration the Bishop of New Zealand's Pastoial Letter respecting the formation of a Church Constitution, was held in St. Matthew's School Room, at 2 o'clock, on Monday. Amongst those present were the Rev. Messrs. Churton, Abraham, Lloyd, Thatcher, Purchas, Lush, and Cotton, and a considerable number of the Laity of the district. Mr. A. B Abraham was requested to preside, and called on the Rev. F. Thaicheu to open the proceedings with praypr, after which A letter fiom the Chief Justice was read, stating his concurience in the object of the Meeiing. The Chairman read the advertisement calling the Meeting, and stated that it had originated with himself. 'J here being; no Vestry or Churchwardens here, he thought it desirable that it should be thus cilled together, and had taken about a dozen of the seatholders as thpy came before him whom he asked to sign the requisition. He then read the Bishop's Pastoral Letter, and proceeded to express a hope that, under the circumstances of the case — as they were met to consider the temporal affairs of the Chuich, and as here as well as in other places it was admitted there was a want of information on the subject — order would be observed, and mutual forbearance exercised. On the motion of the Rev. A. J. PunciiAs, seconded by Mr Gondiiy, it was resolved nem. con. that the " General Principles" proposed by the Bishop as the basis of the Constitution should be considered senatim. The Rev. A. J. Puhchas moved, and Mr. R. Wood ssconded the adoption of the first clause, which was as follows : — I. That the Bishops, Clcigy, and Laity, shall be three distinct ordi rs, the consent of .ill of which *hall be necessary to all acts binding upon the church <tt large. Mr. James O'Neill said that, as this was a Meeting of members of the Church of England, every inmibtr, however humble, had a right to express Ins opinion. He then referred to the recent Church Meetings at Sydney. He thought that the object there and here was to keep as much power as possibls in the hands of the Bishop, and give as little as possible to the Laity. The chief ihing the Laity were permitted to do was to collect money. He would be quite willing to assist in tbe formation of a General Convention ; but he would oppose on attempt to get up one in which the Laity had not their fair share of influence. Mr. Gisboiine expressed his regret that the Bishop was not present to give explanations on certain points involved in his Pastor-il Letter. He remembered four years ago, when the Laity had an opportunity of discussing this question, His Lordship presided over the Meeting. Since that date two courses had been adopted with regard to the Church of England here. A. Constitution had been prepared and privately signed without previous discussion. What had become of it, be did not know. Also, the Bishop, without consulting his clergy, or at least his laity, had gone to Sydney, and, in concert with other Bishops, propounded opinions, some of which, but for the general repugnance loudly manifested again&t them thioughout the colonies, might have been put into practice. (Cries of question, order.) The Chairman thought that Mr. Gisborne was not keeping strictly to the question. They were met to consider th» temporalities, not the spiritualities, of the Church, and should not enter upon questions of doctrine. Mr. Gisboiine explained he was merely recapitulating what had been done, — however, he would come to the main question. He objected to three Orders, making the Bishop and Clergy separate ones: it gave an undue preponderating influence to the clerical body. There was not likely to be more than one or two Bishops m New Zealand, and bo thought it injudicious to make them into a separate house, so that one or two men, fallible as they must be, could stand in the way of any improvement. He proposed, as an amendment, That the Bishop, Clergy, and Laity shall be two distinct oideri, the consent ofbutli of which shall he necessaiy to all acts bindiug upon the Church at laige. The Bishop and Clergy to form one oulei , the Laity the other — tacli older to be governed by its majority. Mr. t O'Neill seconded ihe amendment. Mr. Lusk said that, if the amendment weie ennied, the rule of tbe Bishop would be set aside, and they would no longer be Episcopalians but Presbyterians, lie happened to know something of Presbyterianism, and had no wish to act again in that direction. The effects of the amendment would be to reduce the Bishop to be merely the permanent Moderator of the body. The Rev. J. F. CnunTON wished to sny, at the commencement of his observations, that he did not desire in any waj to weaken the office of Bishops of the English Church. But, as all the members of ihe Church were properly one family, he thought that the Bishop, Clergy, and Laity should meet and consult together in this family relation under the Constitution to be formed for New Zealand. He had read the reports of five meetings on this subject, held in Sydney; and while he had observed that there was an acknowledged want of information on some points at those meetings, he was happy to find that a majority of those who represented thousands there hud come to the same conclusions as he had himself arrived at. He had formed his conclusions without consulting any one, and he did not know whether there would be any person in the room to second his proposition. Ho was in favour of a Diocesan Convention, in which the Laity should have their due share of influence. The 19th Article of the Church of England expressed his view of the tiatuie of a Q hurch, according to which every member was as much a member of the Church as any Archbishop in England. lie always considered the Laity the staunch supporters of the Church ; for, although ho himself belonged to the ori'er of the piiesthood, hep uld not hesitate to declare thut most of the peiversions and coriuption? which had taken place in the Chuich were to be traced to the

Clergy, lie therefore would not be content with any sjstem which shut out the Laity. After some furlhei observations, he read the foflowing Resolution :—: — That, in ilic opinion of ilns Meeting, it is definable that a constitution should b<> named foi the government ot the Church ot England in this mocese,and (hit the foim which they consider most eligible towaids that hat ninny and unity which are needed to eiiMiie its permanent establishment and piospeiity, wonli! be a Uiocisan Convciit'on, being one afesein'ily, consisting of the Bishop, all clergyman in fulloiders, having "primal charge, and an eqn il number of the laity to bedelegated by the communicants. That, a'l mattei- tonceimng the will-being ot the said Church shall be submitted to the decision ol such Convention, and that all the nu'iiibeis of the Contention, be they lay or clerical, shall exercise and enjoy equal and similar rights, poweis, and privileges in all dehbeiations, votes, and proceedings, deliberating together, but voting by oideis, a majority of eachoidei beinguecessary to afloid validity to any law 01 decision. Mr. Jackson beconded the resolution. It was suggested by Mr. Purchas, and agreed to by Mr. CnumoN, that, as the first part of Mr. Churton's resolution wns substantially the same as the clause under consideration, the amendment proposed by him should properly come in upon the second clause. Mr. Gisboune's amendment was then negatived by a small majority, and the original clause was put and carried. Mr. Smiihiis then proposed, and Mr. Lusk seconded, the adoption of the second clause, v»hich was read as follows : — 2 Subject to the foiogoing principle, that each order be at liberty to conduct its delibeialions separately, or to uuite with the others, at its own discretion. The Rev. J. F. Cnunrow then brought forward the portion of hia resolution which, in the opinion of the Chairman, boie upon the present question. He observed that he would not like, as a family man, to have one son sulking in one room, and another in another ; and therefore he wished the several orders to deliberate together. Those oideis should consist of the Bishop, the Clergy in full orders having spiritual charge, and the Laity. Wlifen he mentioned Clergy in full orders and having spiritual charge, he wished not to be misunderstood as intending to exclude any individuals ; but be thought that youns; men, only Deacons, should scarcely have the same weight as Priests ; and that those not having spiritual charge should scarcely hare a voice in the government of the Church in the diocese of New Zealand which they might at any time leave. Nor did he think that the order of Bishop should always be confined to one Bishop. He looked forwaid to the time when the country would be divided into several bishoprics, and when they might expect to have a Bisbop resident here, and not oscillating from one end of the diocese to the other. He moved as follows: — That in the opinion of this Meeting the form of tfovernment which they consider most eligible towardi that haimony and unity which aie needed to ensme the peimanent establishment and pi o«pei ity of the Chinch in New Zealand would be a Diocesan Conu'iition, being one Assembly consisting ol (he Bishops, the Clergy, and at least an equal number or the Laity, and that subject to the foregoing principles that such orders do conduct their deliberations in one Convention or Assembly, delibeiating together but voting by oideis— a majoiityof each order being necessaiy to afloid validity to any laws 01 declsioni. Mr. Jackson seconded tbe amendment. The amendment was then put, and carried by a majority of one— there being 15 Ayes, and 14 Noes. The Rev. F. Tha-ichpk moved, and Mr. Kempthoune seconded the adoption of the third clause : — 3. That provisionally, till a definition of Chuttch Membeiship shall have been agreed upon by a general Convention, eveiy pel son ihall be deemed a Member ot the Church of England, who shall make a wntten declaiation to that effect to the Clergyman of his Paiish or Distiict. Thp Rev. J. F. Chuiiton proposed that the following words be omitted from the clause — " Provisionally till a definition of Church Membership shall have been agreed upon by a General Convention." He thought that although a man might uuoliurch himself, the Convention should not have power to unchurch him. This was seconded by Captain Kelly. Mr. LubK moved that the clause should be amended, by adding aftor the words •' a Member of the Church of England," the following words — " who shall make a written declaration to the clergyman of his parish or district that he is a Member of the Church of England, and has been admitted to the lite of Confirmation." He argued at considerable length to show the importance attached by the Church to this rite. It appeared plain to him that the Church had determined that no person can be accounted a member in such a sense as to be admissible to take a share in her work, who had not at the least been baptized and confiimed. But if the third principle, as proposed by tbe Bishop, should be adopted, there would be nothing to prevent any number of unbaptized, unconfirmed, or even excommunicated laymen from voting for delegates, or even sitting as delegates in the Convention of the Church. Mr. Blackmore seconded Mr. Lusk's amendment. Unless some such guard was kept over the door of admission to the exercise of powers affecting the government of the Church, there would be a danger here of falling into error, as had been the case in America, where Socinianism had crept into the branch of the English Church there to a great extent. He quite agreed with the ptoposer of the amendment that not merely baptism into the Church, but the fact of confirmation also should be cleaily established before permission were granted to any one to take part in the guidance of Church affairs. The Rev. Mr. Ptirchps felt bound on principle <o say a few words on tbe point undi-r consideration. He was, from the bottom of his heart, a supporter of the amendment. We had no right at all to be content with a simple declaration of Church membership, while the Church beiself recognized only those as belonging to her, and entitled to her privileges, who had been confirmed. They wore not met to set up a new sect ; they were there as a branch of the Universal Church, and to consider the bast means to provide for the maintenance of the Church of England in New Zealand, and none should have the opportunity given them of taking part in the management of affairs connected with the interests of that Church but those who were fellow members with themselves. That meeting could not make rules varying from the laws that governed the Church of England, and the amendment was in unison with the whole spirit and meaning of her laws. He believed unconfirmed persons receiving the Holy Sacrament were bound by the law of the Chuich to obtain confirmation as soon as an opportunity offered, as tbe Church directed that none shall be admitted to the Holy Communion until such time as he be confirmed, or be ready and desirous to be confirmed. What he said would peihaps not be palatable to many; but he felt bound to state these views, a 9 it was impossible to tell what effect the proceedings of that day might have in other places. Mr. Busby thought that whatever else was required, there should be a testimonial from the Clergyman that so far as his observation extended, the person lod the life of a consistent Christian In the Church of Scotland the ministers and elders watched over and examined persons wishing to be admitted to the communion, and some similar check should be in operation in this case. The proposition as it stood would make tbe Church of England more democratic than the Church of Scotland. Mr. GtsBORNE could not see at all, as Mr. Purchas had pointed out, that, in negativing tbe amendment, they were likely to decide contrary to the laws of the Church of England. We had two good authorities on our side— that of the Rev. Mr. Churton and of the Bishop. It is not likely the Bishop would have proposed aa illegal act,— frr of course if it were illegal to make a man a member of the Church merely on bis declaration altogether, it was also so to do it provisionally : moreover, the definition was left by the Bishop to the Convention, which lie would not have done, if it had been clearly laid down by the laws of the Church ol England — as he clearly showed no desire to dissolve the connection between the Chuich here and at home. Mr. Lusk could not consent to an alteration which would in effect give tbe Clergy the power of nominating delegates. He regarded the Rubric and the Canons as higher authority in the case than even the Bishop. Mr. WmTAKr.n had come as a listener, but he apprehended that they were getting into difficulties on the question of Church membership, which had before proved a source of difficulty here to plans for the man« agement of the Church of England, and he wished lo point out a mode by which, in his opinion, the difficulty might be avoided. He thought it desirable that the Chuich should be placed upon the broadest basis, in order that all might be invited to assist her members in fornvng the Chuich here, and afterwards they might follow still further if they liked. He thought that it would meet the case if all who registered their names as members of the Church of England were entitled to votp. The present question was strictly one of franchise, and the definition of Church membership might best be left to the Convention, lie therefore thought that it would be better to omit the thud c'auso altogether. If tbe Meeting agreed to this, lie would then propose an alteration in the fourth that would he thought meet the difficulty. He accordingly moved that the third piinciple be omitted, which havn q been seconded by Mr. Beney, was carried nem con. It was then moved by Mr. Whitakerand seconded by Mr. Berrey that 1 1 c fouith Clause should stand thus. — 4 That eveiy adult Chuuli Mrmbui who shall make a written rtcctaiation that lit- is a Alembci of the Churth of England, shall be rcKibteied as such, and be entitled to vote at the election of Lay Repiesentative* to the lust Oeneial Convention. It was then proposed by Mr. Lusk and seconded by Mr. Blackmore that the wt itten declaration should also in-

elude the fact of confirmation This amendnipnt was lost, and Mr. Whitaker's motion was carried by a large majority. The fifth Clause wns tbpn read : 5. That it sh.ill rest witli the Geneial Convention to decide how and by whom all Patiouage shall be exeicised ; and in what mannei all persons holding Chinch Offices shall beiemovnbie from Hie s.nne; and also to fix the amount of all Salaries, Fees, and other allowances. Mr. Wmi akeh moved the omission of this clause, not, however pledging himself to vote for its omission, but wishing to raise a discussion from which infoimation might be elicited. Mr. Smithies could not but think that it required explanation and modification. In Chaiters and similar documents the granting of power to do ceitain things usually implied that only those things can be done. As the clause Mood it might interfere with the Queen's prerogative in the appointment of Bishops. Mr. Gisborne quite agreed with Mr. Smithies* It would be dangerous to leave a sort of blank power for the Convention. He thought the powers specified were expressly introduced by the Bishop, in order to guaid against tliis. The election of Bishops would be an instance in point. Of course the Convention could not elect Bishops, as it would be direct infringement of the Queen's supremacy. The Rev. A. G. Purchas moved that the original clause do stand. He was sure that the Bishop had not introduced it without considering the question. The Rev. C. J. Abraham said that the Bishop had no wish to censure or remove a clergyman by his own fiat, or to exercise patronage according to his caprice or will, but in all these matters he desired to act with the aid and concurrence of the Convention. He (Mr. A.) had heard it said that the offences of the Clergy should be dealt with more severely lhan those of the laity, and for his own part he would rather be in the hands of a convention than in those of any one man. Mr. WmrAKcn, after the explanations he had heard, would withdraw his previous motion, and propose that the clause be adopted with the introduction of the words that " amongst other powers" it shall rest, &c. This was seconded by Mr. Merriman and carried. The sixth and seventh Clauses were read ns follows, and carried without opposition. 6. That it is necessary that the Chinch Body, constituted above, should be legally incorporated ; and that all Sites of Chinches, Burial Grounds, Schools, and lands for Endowment of the Chuich, &c, should be vested in the General Incoipoaiion. 7. That in order to maintain the Queen's snpiemacy, and union with the mother Church, a draft of the Constitution proposed for the Church in New Zealand be submitted to Her Majesty's Secretary of State for the Colonies, and to the Archbishop ot Canterbury, thiough the Meiiopolitan Bishop of Sydney; with a petition that Her Majesty would be graciously pleased to direct the necessary step? to be taken, whethei by Act of Parliament, or by Royal Chatter, to secure to our branch of the English Church, the liberty, within ceiuin limits of framing laws for its own government. The eighth Clause was then read :—: — 8. That neither the Doctrines nor the Ritual of the Church of England, nor the authoiized version of the Bible, shall in any way be subject to the decision of the General Convention. Mr. Gisborne proposed that the words " nor the de» finition of Church membership" be introduced after the words '' version of the Bible." He thought that the Convention should not have the power of deciding who was or who was not a Member of the Church of England. Rev. Mr. Churton seconded the proposition. He would veuture to say that not a score could be found in the country who could prove their Church membership by any documentary evidence. In an experience of twelve years he had not met with half a doz^n who could do so. In the colonies especially it wa3 desirable to afford facilities for persons coming under pastoral care, and he was not willing that any Convention should have the power of excluding from membership any man willing to declare that he belonged to the Church of England. Mr. Whitakeh did not wish to limit the discretion of the Convention, as he believed that the powers given to them would be safe in their hands. Mr. Gkborne's amendment was then put and negatived. The original Clause was about to be put from the Chair, when Mr. Smithies observed that it would not be right for them to tie their hands with respect to the Ritual, remembering that there were differences of opinion arising in a great degree out of the Ritual which had led to the secession from the Church of many of her best ministers. He did not object to the doctrines of the Church, which he believed were pure; buther Ritual was forced upon her at the time when she was weak, and portions of it might advantageously be altered. In asking for a Charter, they should not ask lobe debarred from the exercise of powers which might be desirable for them to possess. lie hoped to set* the day when the Chuich of Englaad would be in a position to strike out of her Ritual whatever might be found objectionable. He concluded by moving that the Clause be omitted. The motion was not seconded. The R°v Mr. Churton bpgged to know in whose bands^the decision as to what were the doctrines of the Church of England was to rest? For his own part he was not willing that it should rest with any Synod or Convention. The doctrines of the Church were declared in her Thiity-nine Articles. If these were received in their plain and literal sense, they were safe as to their true interpretation. But if this standard were departed from, who was to decide 1 It was known that what was regarded as doctrine in one diocese was not so regarded in another. An illustration of this was forcibly presented in the Minutes of the Conference of Bishops at Sydnpy, where the Bishop of Melbourne took one view of an important doctrine, and the other Bishops a different view. If the Thirty nine Articles in their literal meaning were taken to convey the true doctrine of the Church of England, he should then feel assured that the Church would stand. After some observations on the difficuliies which might arise in the case of a candidate for ordination holding different opinions on doctrinal questions from the Bishop, Mr. Churton moved, That inasmuch as the Articles of the Church of England do contain (as is premised in the declaration pielixpd thereto and explanatory thereof) " the true doctiine of the Chinch of England accoidiug to God's word," theiefore it is expedient that in any such Constitution, due piovision shall be made lor the lecognition and maintenance of the said Ai tides, by a plain, distinct enactment ot theii authority and obligation upon all mcmbeisof the Chuicli of England, in the full extent ot lntei pi Uation which the law hdth sanctioned. Captain Kelly seconded the amendment. Rev. C. J. Abraham said that he was not prepared to require the Laity to sign the Thirty-nine Articles, in the same way as the Clergy were required. Such a step would meet with much reprohation at home. Mr. Busby said he heard indistinctly at the time Mr. Smithies was speaking, but reverting to the question raised by him, he thought the Convention should have discretion to alter passages in the Prayer-book which, as they stood were a snare to the consciences of many. The Episcopal Church in America had made several such alterations. Mr. Whi taker thought Mr. Cburton's Resolution unnecessary, and only a multiplication of words, as the term " Doctiines" in the original Principle of course meant Doctrines as the Law interpreted them. If he had been called here to re-model the Prayer-book or interfere with the Ritual of the Church, he should not have attended. Mr. Gisuorne quite agreed with Mr. Whitaker that thpy were not here to give power to alter or remodel the Bible and Prayer-book, — but still he felt convinced of the propriety of the amendment of Mr. Churton. Though the doctrines of the Church might be clearly laid down in the articles, still there might be two interpretations of some of them. He quoted from the Sydney Conference Minutes, as a proof of a very different interpretation placed by five Bishops on one side, and the Bishop of Melbourne on another, regarding the doctrine of the Church on Baptismal Regeneration. Suppose a man believing either the one interpretation or the other came for ordination, and was refused on that account by the Bishops believing the other interpretation — a most important question would arise. Ho believed Mr Churton's amendment would fully meet it. The law of England would decide on any controverted point of that kind, and no Bishop would be allowed to stake his own opinion against such decision in the matter of admission to Oidination. Mr. KnMPTHonNE moved that the Bth Piinciplc extend also to the Prayer-book. This was not seconded. Mr. CiiunroN's amei dtnant was put, and negatived by a msijoiity of 22 to 1 The original clause was then put and carried. It was then proposi d by the Rev. A. J. Purchas, seconded by the Rev. Mr. Luin,and carried, that a clause be inserted between the 'lth nnd sth, " That no pprson, not a communicant of the Church of England, shall be eligible for the office of Lay Delegate." The 9th clause was then read : 9. That the BiMiop of New Zealand be lequestcd to embody the above Resolutions in the form of a Petition and to take such steps as may be nccessaiy for caitymg into effect the wnhes of the Memorialists. It was moved by Mr. Jackson, and seconded by Mr. Gundky, that the Loid Bishop, together with a Committee of gentlemen, be icquested to embody the resolutions, &c. This ameiidnv-nt was lost. Mr. O Km i. thpn proposed that two clergymen and three laymen form a Committee to prepare the Petition. This w.ia not seconded. 'J lie original clause was then put and carried. Thanks having been voted to the Chairman, the Meeting then separated.