THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL OF NEW ZEALAND.

New Zealander, Volume 7, Issue 547, 12 July 1851, Page 2

THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL OF NEW ZEALAND.

Although we have already not only given in a condensed form the substance of the proceedings in Council -which have reached us by the last arrival, but also verbatim extracts of son 4 of the most important passages, we deem it desirable to copy more copiously still from the reports in the Wellington papers of the discussions on questions of public interest. Not that we can discover in everything that was. spoken by hon. Members the statesmanlike weight of wisdom which would render the preservation of their sentiments in our annals of the Colony a matter of paramount moment to thepiesent or any fntuie geneiation; stUV

they do form a poition, ho\ve\er small, of our Colonial history, — (for this is our Legislature — the only one we yet have) — and it may therefore be desirable to keep some of them at least on record for purposes of reference. It may be a convenient airaugemenl lo the reader, that — instead of transferring the leports in chronological older, — (that is, each day's proceedings on a variety of subjects) — we should biing together the pioceedings on each paiticular measure, though occurring on different days, so as to present a connected view of the whole of the progress made in relation to that measure. We shall also avail ourselves of the repoits in both of our contemporaries taking speeches either from the Spectator or the lndependent, as their reports may respectively appear fuller or more intelligible. We begin with

The New Zealand Company's Land Ciaimants' Biil, The debate on the second reading of this Bill took place on Tuesday, the 10th of June. Captain Smith, in moving the second reading of the New Zealand Company's Land Claimants Bill, congratulated bis fellow colonists on the very great alteration and improvement which would be effected by this mea6uio, especially iv its removing two great evils which Lad been so very generally complained of, one, the want of Crown titles to their land for which they had now waited more than eleven years ; the other, the pernicious effects of the lottery system, by the operation of which properties were scattered and rendered comparatively useless. An opportunity would be given by t bis bill of consolidating- those pi operties, more people w ould be induced to go into the country, and immigrants w ould feel a secuiity in the immediate receipt of titles t0 their lands they never could have felt before. The motion was seconded by the Attornly General for New Ulster. Mr. Cautley, while agreeing with tbe general provisions of tbe bill, thought it combined two distinct principles, which it would be desirable to keep separate ; in allowing purchasers to take scrip for their lands, it appeartd to enunciate a different principle from the preamble of the bill, and he wished to object to this principle before going into cornmitlee. The A horsey Glnlhai, for Now Munsler wished to offer a few remailis in t>uppoit of the motion. The present was by far the most important measure ever submitted to a Council of this colony. Its object was to remove the evils which had existed for the last ten years with respect to titles to land ; substituting older for disorder, certainty for doubt, and making that which was perplexed plain. It was impossible for him to exaggerate or even adequately to describe the grievances and annoyances that had been suft'eied by the settlers for want of titles to their lands, and he had the satisfaction of leflecting that the task of description was in a great measure rendered unnecessary in the presence of so many who had witnessed thesp grievances. The population of these settlements had decreased more by this cause than by any other. Hundreds and thousands of persons had landed in this country, with pieces of paper from the New Zealand Company, called landorders, conferring no titles to land, and at most but an interest in land ; and in seeking redress, many were astonished to find they could not sue the Agent of the Company : that their action must be brought against the principals at the other end of the world. These pieces of paper conferred nothing but a right of litigation against certain persons in Europe, an indefeasible right of inheritance to tbe holders of them, for themselves and their children, to a lawsuit against these persons. The most strenuous efforts had been made to remedy this state of things, and a report had been published in the bhape of a book, which from its size, he might call a monstious book, containing a correspondence without end ; but the efforts of the colonists and the efforts at home to remedy those evils, though unceasing, had been in vain, and in fact, they were just a=s far from the point so ardently desired as they were ten yeprs ago. It was therefore impossible for him to exaggerate the effects of so gieat and important a measure. To use the words of an eloquent wiiter on the subject of recent legiil leforms, it would make that which has hitheito been a sealed book a living letter ; it would render that which was perplexed and ob&cuie plain and intelligible; that which has been u&ed as an engine for oppiession, a fixed standard of lights as to real propeity, and an impen&hable record of the titles of the whole community. Sir George Grly explained that in the bill in its piesentform there was no mingling of subjects essentially diffeient. It could not bo contended, that an individual, who purchased land at auction from the Government, and had received a title to his> land, was j entitled to scrip, as the result of such a course would be to destroy all the records in the country, and cieate an absolute confusion witb reference to titles to land. But where nothing has been done, it would be necessary to begin de novo, and first to give titles to land of which the purchaser ua& in possession, and then to would still therefore remain an obligation unfulfilled. He issue scrip lor tbe remainder. In certain districts, for example in tbe neighbourhood of the Horokiwi, the surveys were never completed, and the purchaser could not be expected to keep land he had never seen, there therefore thought it necessary to combine the two objects in one, which would go on concunently together, 'ihe purchaser would state his whole claim, and would receive a giant fortho land he had got, and scrip for the remainder; and be thought if this system were carried out, in. no country would tules to Jand rest on a surer basis. Since the subject was last under discussion, he (Sir Georgl) had received a despatch fiom the Lieu-tenant-Governor of New Ulster, stating that the prayer of the petition from Auckland that the holders of scrip might be allowed to purchase in any part of New Ulster, might be complied with without injuiy to the Province, if tbis permission were not available near the town of Auckland. Such a permission would interfere with the rights granted to the Wardens of Hundreds already established, and would have the effect of stopping public works, the funds of which had been advanced by the Crown on the security of the land fund, but this limitation would only extend to within a few miles round Auckland. Mr. Bell entered into a long and laboured defence of the New Zealand Company. He contended that the late New Zealand Company was not the company which originally started the Colonization of New Zealand, and that it was under the New Zealand Land Company, that land-orders were issued for land of which the 6eller and purchaser knew nothing. There was an equal ignoiance on both sides, and both ought to have a share in the blame. A court of claims had been instituted here without reference to an agreement entered into in 1840 between Lord John Russell and the Company, and hence the confusion that had arisen. It was not till '47 or '48 that crown titles were given for crown lands in any part of New ftJunster. And be thought it would be fur better to enter into what will now meet the question than to enter into what had brought the question into the present confusion and disoider. In many cases the Nf w Zealand Company had offered land to the purchaser which could not be found. There was a vast proportion of the Lnd at | Massacrejßay, for instance, which had been selected without its having been first surveyed, and it could not be said that these contracts were completed — it was therefore perfectly fair to give scrip to make the contract complete. There were no means possessed either by the New Zealand Company or the Government to give these sections'.of land to the purchase) s, and therefore some other means were indispensable for the fulfilment of the contracts, some other means than that of giving land. There were land orders now in existence for conferring a title to land in any part of New Zealand, in reference to which, ihe owners had not exercised them, and it would be highly injurious to recognise them except for a limited period nnd to a limited extent. On all grounds the proposal of the Government to issue scrip in lieu of tbe land-orders of the New Zealand Company was peifectly fair and just. And he hoped that whatever amendments were made in the bill the principle would not be touched. There never was a proposal made that conferred bo large a benefit on tbe community as the one before the council. The ArroßNhV-GrNtnitL N. JVI. Both parties the Company and their customers had engaged in a lottery and those who got the blanks were very much dissatisfied. Sir George Grjcy thought it necessary to offer an explanation in reference to what had been said by a previous speaker that certain land orders issued by the New Zealand Company conferred a right to select land jp any part of New Zealand, and that that right still

I <nbbißtpil. Tin' l.iw of the rave was tins. The u»ht oi s lertion existed in cejfain limited diatiicts, either ol Imd panted to the Company, or of land puicliased by tlie Crown and placed at the disposal of the Company. These distjicts included a certain poition of this Fro vniCH, but a much larger portion of it was not in this position. These lands had now revetted to the Cioivn, subject to those contracts, and all that the Council was required to do was to make good any specific contracts existing betwppn the New Zealand Company and its purchasers. His Fxcellencv then referred to the Act of Pailiament to shew the nntuie of the contracts, which upon the reversion of these lands to the Crown it was called upon to fulfil, nnd said that it would be the duty of the Council hbeially to fulfil these conti acts, but it would not be prudent to throw upon the public any further debt. The land fund wa« already moi tgaged for i; 268,000 in payment to the New Zealand Company. If any arrangements were made by which it was determined first to take upon themselves that debt, and then to entail such a debt as niny be incurred by other obligations entered into by the New Zealand Company, it would open up such an illimitable field as he (Sn Giorgf) could hardly form a conception of. This extended \ie\v would throw on the Government tbp whole onus of the obligations of the Company, but tlip Government could only undertake to complete specific contracts between the Company and its purchasers m any way most advantageous to the individuals and the community. Mr. Bell explained that a person holding a claim of which ho could not compel thp fulfilment would hive a temedy against the selleis, and the Government would only satisfy his claims by giving scrip. lie should con eider it a dangeious course to pursue to give extia compensation to indefinite claims; wherever a value existed, the contiact shculd be fulfilled, but he certainly contended that nothing but a defined contract should be entitled to specific compensation. Sir GroRGL Giu v said the question resolved itself into this, a person might come with a contiact to select certain lands, and the answer of the Crown would be, we have no power over the land: as a qi eat number of persons both within and without the colony were interested in this question ; his object in making these remai ks on his (Mr. Betl's) extended views was to prevent any erroneous impressions as to the intentions of the Government, and to be as clear and explicit a» possible. The bill was then read a second time. On Wednesday, the Uth of June, the Bill came into committee, when the following were the proceedings. Captain Smith moved the consideration in committee of the New Zealand Company's Land Claimants Bill. Mr. Belt, suggested that the preamble be read in paragraphs, as divided, in order that the attention of the Committee might be given to each paiagiaph. After the preamble had been agreed to with a few verbal amendments, and the two first clauses considered, Mr. Dillon moved the adjournment of the Committee; I so many persons weie interested in the liill, that h<> thought it very desirable it should not be buinud through the Council. | Sir George Grey, without wishingto force members, was very desirous of hearing their opinions on the next clause, and suggested the reading the 3rd and 4th clauses together, in oider to bring on a debate on them. The clauses having been read, {Japtain Smith proposed the Ist January, 1853, as the limit within winch all claims to land should be sent in, by persons in the colony, and to extend the period in favour of claimants living out of the colony to Ist January, 1 854. Mr. Bell was of opinion it would not be expedient to allow this question to be left open any longer, a certain extension of time might be given to persons in England, but he would fix a short limit for persons, residing in the colony to give notice of their claims. Sir George Grey felt inclined, as a better mode of procedure to that proposed by the bill, to conform to the usual practice of the Government in issuing titles to land. The Government was not at present in possession of the lecords of the New Zealand Company's transactions with respect to landsinthis settlement, but ho had reason to believe these records would shortly be given to the Government, which would then be in a position to issue grants to those entitled to land in the usual way. The public interests required that this question should be immediately disposed of, and he(SirGLOiuiE) thought that nearly oil the claims m the colony might be settled within a few months. It should be borne in mind that these were bona fide claims to land, that the individual preferring 1 a claim bad actually paid a sum of money for what Parliament declares the Government is to give him. Ca«es may possibly occur, where persons, from weakness of intellect, or supineaess, might not take steps to prefer their claims, and he thought the better course would be if any claim weie not preferred within a certain limited period, the Governor should send the claim to the Commissioner, and that it should be dealt with by him as if it had been sent by the individual. He appiebended the greater part of the claims would present no difficulty, and might easily be disposed of, and be would throw out this suggestion as preferable to the mode laid down in the draft of the bill, •19 by the course he proposed, if, from any oversight on the pan either of the individual or of the Government, the claim was not sent in to the Commissioner, it would not be forfeited, but the individual Jand-order would represent so much land whenever produced. He (Sir Gkoiice) would be inclined to allow only six months to persons in the colony, and fifteen months to pet sons living out of it for sending in their claims. There was no reason to suppose the Commissioner would do more injustice than the Surveyor-General. If the individual did not send in bis claim to the Commissioner, ihe Crown would do so, and the Commissioner's decision would be final. Such a couise would be entnely consonant with the present practice and would form part of a uniform system. It would also be thought, lemove an appearance of harshness, which the clause as it now stands, at first appearance presents. In answer to an observation from Mr. Bei.l, Sir George Grey said the precise words iieed not be considered now, some general amendment might be prepared which would afterwards be submitted to the Committee. Mr. Cautley alluded to the case of certain persons at Nelson, holding leases of land forming the private estate of the Company, which they believed to be valid ana binding, but which it was reported were illegal ; as the holders of these leases weie for the most part of the labouiing class, and as they had spent considerable sums on these lands he thought it would be of import- j ance to frame such a clause as would meet the peculiar circumstances of their case. Mr. 811 l explained that many of the leases alluded to had been granted by the Agents of the Company acting under the authority of a power of attorney, and the question had been raised, and a stiong opinion given, as to whether a lease granted by an Agent of the Company without having the corpoiate seal of that body affixed to it was valid. The suggestion, if acted on, would piotect a class of persons highly deserviug the consideration of the Council. The Committee then adjourned. The Attorney -General of New Zealand gave notice of his intention to move the following amendments on the New Zealand Company's Land Claimants Bill, viz.: — the following addition to the 7th clause. Provided always, — that in every case in which there shall have been, two or more claimants for, or in respect of every such land-order, contiact, or scrip, as aforesaid, such report shall state the names of the several claimants, the nature and grounds of their respective claims, and the evidence which may have been adduced in support of the same respectively. The following addition to the 19ib clause, to be inseited after the woids Colonial Government — And by the Colonial Treasurer of the Province of New Ulster, in or towards the purchase of demesne lands of the Crown, in any paitof the said Province of New Ulster, not being within the limits of any Hundred, which may from time to time be offered for sale by or on behalf of the said Colonial Geverninent. Mr. Cautley gave notice that the next day he would move for Returns of the quantity of land sold by the New Zealand Company in the settlements of Wellington, and Wanganui, Nelson, New Plymouth and Otago, with the piice of the same per acre or allotment; also of the names of the several districts in each settlement in w hicb such lands may h"ave been selected, together with the distance of such district from the principal town of the settlement to which it belongs, and the gioss amount of land originally surveyed, and the number of acres selected in each of such districts. Also, a return of all lands in cultivation, or in preparation ibr cultivation, in the above mentioned districts, and the amount of scrip awarded by the New Zealand Company, or their agents, in the above named settlement. On the following day, Thursday, June 12. Mr. Cautiey, in moving for the returns of the amount of land sold by the New Zealand Company of which he gave notice yesterday, said that only the gross amounts would be required ; in so important a bill it

vns vpjv de«*iial>le the Council should have befoie them nll'authennc information the Government could give them : at present they could only apeak <>•> to lic.tisay. As to selected lands he thought a good authenticated map would be sufficient. Sir Giouol Guiy Mid ih.it up to the present moment the Government was not in possession oi the recoids of the Company's transactions in land in Wellington nnd \\ .inganui ; those at Nelson and, he Ivlinved, at NewPlymouth had been given up. At Ota»o, in consequence of a dispute between the Association and the Company, he thought the records would not be given j up. As far as the Government was in possession of infoimatioH required by the lion, member it would he furnished. Jn answer to a question by his Excellency. Mr. Jjlll said he could furnish au approximation to the quantiti*". of land sold and ptices paid at Nelson, which would be sufficiently accuiate for the purposes of legislation. Several notices of amendments were given by Mr. Bell, Mr. Cautlky, and Mr. Cutfield. As they are long, and technical in their structuie, it may be time enough to refer to them when we Jearn how they have been dealt with by the Council.