GENERAL LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Saturday, August 25.

New Zealander, Volume 5, Issue 347, 28 August 1849, Page 2

GENERAL LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Saturday, August 25.

Present: — The Governor. in-Chief, Hie Coloninf Secretary, the Attorney General, the Colonial Treasurer, the Surveyor-General, Mr. Merrimin, Mr. Barstow, Lieut. -Colonel Huline, Major Mntson, and Mr. Ketnplhorne. Prayers were read by the Colonial Chaplain, and the minutes were read and confirmed* Mr. Bar»tow presented a petition from ieventy-two storekeepers, praying the Council to enact some law, making it compulsory on persons leaving the colony to give due notice at the Custom House of their intention. The pelition wns read and ordered to be printed.

Crown Titles Bill. The Attorney-General moved that this Bill be read a third time, when The Governor ros« propose an amendment whereby a purl: of the 9th Clause that had been Btiuck out on the previous day might be reinserted* The words struck out were " In case the person or persons entitled lo make such selection shall meet witli any serious obstruction in the exercise of the same from any Native claimant." Novr by the omission of these words the Governor contended that the claimants would have the power to throw up their claims at a distance, and to select in Jieu of them lands in the vicinity of Auckland. It was true that it was enacted that they could only do this with the sanction of the government, but to refuse any application for this purpose would have the effect, as iv former cases, of exposing the government to all the obloquy and odium of appearing to thwart the private inteiests of such claimants, whose application might be rejected. In practice therefore, it must be considered, that by omitting from the clause the words which had been struck out, when the Council were last in committee on this bill, an unrestricted power was given to the land claimants of throwing up their claims, and of selecting in lieu of them lands in the vicinity of Auckl.ind. There could also be but little doubt that the claimants would laigely avail themselves of this power because the Council had completely altered the Bill from that form in which it had been originally laid °u the table, they having thrown in each iustance upon the'l.md claimants, the vaiious charges which the Governor had pioposed should be thrown upon the revenue. Is appeared therefore, almost certain, that if the option

js afforded to the claimants of either selecting in the neighbourhood of Auckland lands surveyed for them by the government, at the public expense, and to which a valid and undoubted title was given, or of making good their claims to lands having little value from position, by incieasing the expense of extinguishing the native title, and by incurring the expense of that survey which was now necessary before their title could be made good, they would in nearly all cases accept the former alternative, and throwing up their claims, would select land near Auckland. The effect of such a proceeding would be to render it necessary for the Government to provide lands in this neighbourhood which would suffice to compensate the claimants, for probably considerably upwards of 100,000 acres of land which they would throw up. There could be no doubt that that larsre class of land claimants who did not reside in the colony, and who had no interest in it other than to make as much as they could by their land claims, would never incur the farther expense, in reference to their claims, of making surveys and of extinguishing the native title, but would prefer selecting large tracts of land near Auckland, which might for years remain locked up in their hands. Their extmple would, in this respect, be followed by the great mass of claimants, and the result would be, that the land fund would be for years completely extinguished, and the policy on which the Government had, for so long a period of time, been acting, would be entirely frustrated. He, the Governor, had not, from the suddenness of til.' amendment, when it whs last proposed in Committee, •seen the full effect of its bearing upon the futuie prospects of the Colony. When the Governor ariived af> Auckland, he found that a great quantity of land in the immediate vicinity of the town bad paised into the hands of the ten shillings an acre and one penny an acre land claimants ; whilst the Government received hardly any consideration for the land, it possessed but little value to any one because there were no funds with which to defray the expense of rendering the country practicable to the possessors by opening up roads through it, nnr were there any funds to provide for the placing ot population upon the land from the presence of which it could alone have any real value. These causes had inflicted a great injury upon all these persons who had bought land in this dfctiict at auction on the understanding that the laud in their vicinity to which a value would bs giren by their labour and improvement'? should only be disposed of in the same way, and that the funds lealized from the sale of it should be expended in forming roads and bringing out emigrants. Although the evils alluded to appeared to be great, they did not saem to be irremediable, and the Governor determined therefore as he saw the extenl of liabilities in which the Government would become involved, not to give their land to the 10s. an acre and Id. an acre land claimants grndgingly, but to endeavour at the lame time that certain lands wore secured to them, to give these lands a large value by opening them up by roads, and by placing a considerable population upon them so as to place the country in tbe same position that it would have occupied had the lands been sold on a fixed system. And for this purpose he recommended to the British Government that a large expenditure should b- incurred; his recommendations had been approved of, the utmost had been done to oi en up the country by roads, a considerable population had been placed upon the land, and so anxious had the Governor been to carry out this line of policy that he had not recently bes'tuted to violate big instruction!) by in this part of New Zeahnd the last corps of Pensiorers, who were destined for another plane. This line of policf had been unswervingly followed for four years, but it had been bo followed upon the supposition that the full extent of the liabilities to which the Jar.ds i« the neighbourhood of Auckland were subjected wtre known to the Government, and the Governor bad reported to the authorities at home that the demands to be made upon them would not exceed a certain limit, If» however, the Council now thought proper to throw again upon the lauds in the vicinity of Aucklaad, a new and much greater liability than they had ever before had to meet, a complete change in the policy of the Executive Govorninent would become necessary— what that change might be he could not s^y, but bo soon as they bad determined whether they would or would not tin aw new burdens upon the lands, he would consider whether any and what alterations were necessary m the policy of the Executive Government. Probably the Council, like himself, had not upon the previous occaiion fully weighed the effect of the measure they proposed to adopt. In order therefore to place some check upon the demands of the land claimants, he, the Governor, would propose to restore the words, for he thought that a class of men who bad obtained grants to vatt tracts of land in many cases in direct opposition to the recommendation of the Commissioners appointed to investigate their claims, or in great excess of the quantity awarded by ttese CommUsioners, ought not to have the power of depriving the country of its most available and valuable lands, and of thus locking up i's resources for years. J3esides.it must be remembered, that in those cases in which the claimants had obtained grants to lands of which the Commissioners had reported, that the native title had never been extinguished, the public would positively receive nothing in exchange for valuable tracts of land in the vicinity of the cipital. Mr. Merriman could see 10 plainly the force of what bad fallen from His Excellency, that he would at once second tbe motion. The words having been reinserted in the clause, the bill was read a third time and passed. Mr. Barstow then moved that the Council should go into Committee for the purpose of taking into consideration the disabilities of the hrlf-caste race. The motion was seconded by Colenel H ulnae. Tbe AttorneysGeneml, before asientmg to the motion, would wish to hear the specific reasons for bringing this question under consideration of a Committee. Mr. Bantow said that, owing to the short notice that he had to bring such an important matter before tne Council, he felt that he muit rely chiefly upon the petition presented by him on the day before. In the case submitted by thr petitioner it appeared that certain lands bestowed upon big wife, a native woman, by her relatiyrs, had been taken from him by the Government. Now it appeared that had she been married to fc a native of her own or of a distant tribe, this gift I would have remained her property ; but owing to the ™ fact of her being the lawfully married wile of a European she, as well as her children, are to lose all title to the land. He thought that this case alone was sufficient reason why his motion should be considered. Tbe Governor then expressed bis gratification at the petition being brought forward, for it afforded him an opportunity of answering the calumnies that had been so very industriously and inceisantly circulated against hejGovernment. He stated that, so far from there being any desire to place disabilities on half-caste children, the contrary was the case— and he believed that hit attention had been more particularly directed to this class of the inhabitants by the circumstance of the petitioner himself. having been so constantly near his (tbe Governor's) pefson in the capacity of interpreter ; he had taken raucLj interest in the family of the petitioner,

and so far from what had been stated in the petition being the fact, he had been desirous to act most liberally towardi the petitioner and his family, and for that liberality he had frequently received, from the petitioner, acknowledgements of gratitude in presence of several officers, so that he (the Governor) was never more surprised than when he heard the petition read to tliß Council. His Excellency then went into a history of the petitioner's claim, reading the several letters that had passed between the Cobniel Secietary and the petitioner on the subject, nnd concluded by stating that he had incurred r?sponsibilky by going even beyond the opinion of the Attorney-General, in a desire to act liberally towards the petitioner and his family. The Colonial Secretary nnd the Surreyor-General corroborated the statements of the history of this case as related by the Governor ; ami after hearing the explanations that were given by the several members of the Government, in answer to questions put by Mr. Merriman, Mr. Barstow said that he was sorry he should have presented a petition, every statement in which he could not now believe to be true. The Governor expressed his willingness to entertain the general question as regards the rights ofhalf-caste children ; but he thought that were tbe principle to be fully recognised, that natives had the power to make over to their female friend", marrying Europeans, as much hnd as they pleased, we should have all the woithless chamcteis in the country endeavouring to form native alliances, so as to acquire the unqualified right to land that ibis principle would hold out. He had endeavoured, in many cases already, to make provision for half-caite children ; their interests had not btati overlooked. The Surveyor-General expressed his belief that, so long ns His Excellency remaiued at the head of the Government ot this colony, there was little d-mger of the half-caste race being neglected ; but he thought that some principle should be laid down and recog - nised, so that the children of Maori females might be entitled to some fifty or one hundred acres each of land, and, in the event of one child dying, that the portion belonging to it should revert to the next, and soon in that order. He would therefore propose a resolution 10 the Council to the effect, that they should address the Governor requesting him to make regulations to secure a portion of land to the children of native women by Europeans. Mr. Meiriman would most willingly support «ucli proposal. He thought, however, that there might be some difficulty in establishing any specific plan for carrying out these intention 1 !, but it might be lefc with the Government to deal with each case according to its own merits. The Colonial Secretary was of opinion that the best provision that could be made for the half-caste race wouid be one for their education. Without it they would soon manifest an ineliantion to the vices of both races; but with the advantages of a judicious education they would be placed in circumstances of respectability and worthiness. After some further discussion, the subject was dropped. Mr. Merriraan then proposed the motion, of which, he had given notice, for the Council to go into Committee to request the Governor to amend the Resident Magistrates Courts Ordinance. The motion was seconded by Mr. Burstow. A dKcusoion ensued, in whirh the AttorneyGeneral, Mr. Merriman, and the Governor weie the principal speakers, when the matter was allowed to stand over, Mr. Merriman undertaking to forward to His Excellency during the recess such suggestions as occuired to him for the amendment of Uie Ordinance. In the mean time, the Governor promised to bring the Court of Requests Ordinance into operation again, if the public would signify that they preferred the operatiou of that Court. The Governor then read bis reply to the Report of the Sub-Committee on the Waste Lands belonging to the Natives. In order that both papers maj stand on record together, we have given the report first in order RsrORT of the Sub- Committee appointed on the 9th of August, 1849, on the motion of Lieutenant* Colonel Hulme, for tbe purpose of addressing His Excellency theGovernor-in-Chief, requeitin? him to extend to the Natives of New Ulnter, under tuch rules and regulations as to His Excellency may neem meet, the right to lease their waste lands to Europeans, so that large tracts of the country may be opened up. That your Committee have seen the manifestation of great anxiety on the part of the General community, especially among the owners of cattle and sheep, concerning an adequate supply of food for their heids and flocks. That it has been represented to your Committee that, within the last twelve monthi, numbers of cattle in this district have died of starvation, in consequence of the runs upon which they were depasturing having been overstocked, an error of management which the stockholder allege to have been forced upon them by the difficulties which they have met in obtaining suitable runs for themselves from the Crown. That, in compliance with the expression of your Excellency's whiles, your Committee abstain from bringing into questiou the sufficiency of the Crown Lands for the purpose required, but, nevertheless, consider it their duty to observe, that the existence of difficulties is sufficiently proved by the fact of heavy losses having been incurred. That it is their opinion that relief would be most effectually afforded by permitting the Stockholders of the Northern Province to departure cattle on tbe Lands of the Natives, on such terms and conditions as may be agreed upon between the Native landowners and the European stockholders, subject to such restrictions as may be required by the interest of both races. That they are aware of the existence of such a practice in the Southern Province, from which they aie not aware that any practical inconvenience has yet been found to arise. That they believe that such permission will have the effect of opening up the country to Europeans, bringing them into more intimate and friendly connexion with the native race. That the civilization and improvement of the latter, who are willing, as in the Southern Province, to undertake the caie of whatever flocki and herds might be committed to their charge— will be much promoted, and that the fertile plains of the interior, far superior in richness of pasture to any in tbe vicinity of the capital, will be redeemed from idleness, and made to contribute to the general wealth of the country. That they believe that, by such a measuie, all danger of misunderstanding with the native race would be effectually prevented, the natives themselves being willing to act as stock-keepers on their own lands. That the, benefit to be derived from such a measure will accrue to all stockholders from their being enabled to dispense with European servants, and avail themselves of the cheaper services of the na.ives ; but more particularly to that class of settlers who, being in pos« session of only a small number of cattle, neither require, nor could afford the expeute of maintaining an establishment and defined run. That the serious drain upon the wealth of the Co*

lony, owing to the necessity of importing cattle for the maintenance of our increasing population, is hurtful both to the piosperity and revenue of the Province, diverting money from other channels through which il mitfht contribute directly to the revenue — an evil likely to increase in the same ratio as the population. That they believe that the rapid increase of cattle, consequent upon >such a measure, would ha/c the effect of materially lessening the expense of supplies for she a ined torce maintained by Her Majesty in New Zealand. Your Committee would further observe, that it is not to the Stockholders alone, hut to the trading portion of the community likewise, that relief would, in their opinion, be afforded inasmuch as that, by opening up the country, European luxuries will be brought more immediately under notice of the Natives, whose industry would be stimuU'ed by desire to procure the means of enjoying them, to the great increase of the productive wealth of the country, to the corresponding benefit of the merrantile interest, and of the revenue. That your Committee likewise would beg to submit to yr.ur Excellency the expediency of taking measures for giving greater peimanencyof tenure to the occupation of whaling and other station§, which contribute such an important proportion of the exports of this Colony That your Committee beg to bring under your Excellency's notice the prevalence of an opinion, that a dangerous falling off in the Colonial revenue is to be apprehended, in consequence of the general stagnation of business and the re-emigration which ig at present biking place, and believe that immediate encourage, ment of what is called the Maori trade— which has always been considered as the mainstay of the town of Auckland, affords the most legitimate means of providing apainst such a contingency. Your Committee, therefore, request that, in accordance with your Excellency's promise contained in a Notice dated 15th June, 1846, and published in the " Government Gazette" of the 16th of that month, a measure may be laid before this Council, having for its object the introduction of a system by which the lands, the property of the Natives, may be brought into the market, under such »estrictions as are required by the interests of both races, or that your Excellency will be pleased forthwith to bring into operation regulations with a view to render the Native Lands of this Province available for depasturing purposes by the European Stockholder. (Signed Fred. W. Meriuman, Robert Clapham Baiistow, W. Hulmb, Lieut, -Col. Henry Matson, S. Kempthohnb. The Goternou's Reply. Gentlemen,— ln reply to your address requesting that I would cause a measure to be laid before, having for its object the introduction of a system by which lands, the property of the Natives, may be brought into the market under such restrictions as are lequired by the interests of both races, or that I would be pleased forthwith to bring into operation regulations, with a view to render the native lands of thii Province available for depasturing purposes by the European stockholders. I have the honor to state, that it has always been my own opinion that the permanent interests of both races, and the prosperity of the country, would be most effectually p omoted by the Government purchasing large tracts of land from the Natives, — (on the plan which has, oy my directions, been pursued in the Souih of New Zealand) — ipreadmg the payment for these lands over a period of several years, and making ample reserves for the Natives, which they would be at liberty to lease to Eiuopeans, and by then throwing open these districts to the Enropean stockholder m Ihe ordinary manner. With a view to the promotion of this plan, the Surveyor-General has, for a considerable period of time, been authorised by me to purchase from the Natives any large disti ict of country which the stockholders would themselves select as best suited for their ! purposes , and he has, I believe, in compliance with I my request, communicated these instructions to the principal stockholders, and made them acquainted with my anxiety to secure for their use the most fertile and available districts. Such a plan would, I think, present much greater advantages for both races than any plan that could be 1 devised for rendering the Native lands available for depasturing purposes, under regulations fiamed by the i Government ; and I think that here, as in the South of New Zealand, the settlers would find it infinitely more advantageous to themselves to hold their runs under a secure tenuie from the Crown, than to be subjected to the caprice of the Natives. If, however, the Surveyor-General and the other officers who I Trill appoint for that purpose should not, within the next few months, succeed in securing large and fei tile tracts of country in every respect available , for depasturing purposes I will, under certain restiictions, permit the European stockholders to depasture cattle on land, the property of the Natives, although it may be necessary to gain considerable experience on this most difficult subject, before it will be practicable to issue a complete code, of regulations in relation to it. I should, however, inform the Council that I have for a considerable time past directed my attention to this matter, and bave carefully considered numerous suggestions which have been made to me regarding it. I have delayed, for a short time, replying to your address for the purpose of consideri.ijr your request, that I would take measures for giving greater permanency of tenure to the occupation of whaling and other stations. I regret, however, to stare that I have not yet been able to devise any plan which appeared likely to accomplish this object, nor am I aware of the nature of the difficulties in relation to the subject which were under the consideration of the Council, when they framed that passage in their address. I will, however, carefully consider any suggestions which any member of the Council may think proper to transmit to me in connexion with this object. G. Grey. Council Chambers, August 25. The Governor, as soon as he had concluded reading the above, said that he would be happy to listen to any suggestions from the public on the subject ; he himselt believed that the country would be benefitted by the opening up of it for depasturing purposes, but he thought tbat the system would be best matured by being allowed to grow into practice. | The Governor, after returning thanks to the hon. members for their attendance, and for the pains and care they had taken in peifectini? as far as possible the measures he had brought before them, some of which | were calculated to coufer the greatest possible benefits on the cauntry, adjourned the Council sine die..