GENERAL LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, August 14, 1849.

New Zealander, Volume 5, Issue 342, 16 August 1849, Page 2

GENERAL LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Tuesday, August 14, 1849.

Present :— The Governor-in Chief, the Colonial Secretary, the Attorney- General, the Colonial Treasurer, Mr. Merriman, Mr. IWstow, Lieut.-Colonel Hulme, Major Matson, and Mr. Kempthorue. Tlii" Coloiial Chaplain 1 c id prave s. Minutes read and confirmed. Mr. Merriman presented a petition, signed by two hundred of the inhabitant*, of this di-tnet, praying that a chine in the Bill for Quieting Crown Titles which would delay the operation of the measure until the ltoyal assent should be given to it, mi^ht be struck out. On the motion of the honorable member, seconded by the Colonial Secretary, the petition was read and received, and ordered to be printed. (A copy of the petition appeared in our nuaaber o the 9ch install f.)

Exiles. Mr. Mprriman rose, in pursuance of notice given by him on Tuesday last, to bring uuder the notice of the Council a despatch which had been received by the Governor-in Chief from the Secretary of State for tbe Co!oni u s, relative to the introduction of Exiles into New Zealand. He had hoped, in coming down to tbe Council, to have found in the chambers the Purl amen, tary Papers for 1840 and 1844, that he might have referred to them, and called the »tte»iion of the Coun~ cil to despatches which hid been written by the Secretaries of State to Gnvcrnois of thib colony on the subject of conviotism in relation to these islands ; hut he whs disappointed in not finding files of those documents in the Council office, and he hoped that menu birs would bear with him while he endeavoured, unassisted by such facilities at were necessary, to uring this subject before them. The purport of the despatches, however, to which he alluded, went most distinctly to lay down the principle that it would be unwise to introduce convicts into this country, and to promise that New Zealand was never to be made a penal settlement. Under these assurances many of the colonists had made this the land of their adoption ; and although the imprcsbion on some minds might be, that these protnibes were about to be set aside, yet he was sure that those who had directed their couise to these shores upon the faith of the repeated assurances so publicly avowed by the Colonial Office, would not now be deceived. The manner in which the subject hail been placed before ihe colonists Icil him to bclicVß that unless they themselves were willing to have convicts sent to them, there was not the least (ear to bs entertained of the home government thiuiting them upon the country, for the princ'pal Secretary of State for th° Colonies, in his despatch to the Governor, says— •• I should be glad, therefore, if you would ascertain, in tbe manner which may appear to you best suited to fie purpose, how far tins would be tiie prevalent opinion in tbe colony mider your governnvnt ; and if I should learn rom you that the meas7,re wo'ild be wished for* 1 s'lould be p epared to take the nectary steps for i lcludi ig New Zealand in the places into which cony cts holding tickets of leave may be introduced." This portion of the despatch, taken in conjunction with .previous expressions contained in it, namely, '• I think it right to point out to you, that if the inhabitants of New Zealand should be' willing to receive men with tickets of leave," &c, clearly pointed out thai u i)e-.s tbe colonists were willing to icceivc the Se retaiy of State's proposition, that no steps of the kind would be taken. The question resolved itself i to two poinis— first, whether the Council was bound to express any opinion upon ihe question propounded by the desp itch referred to ; and if so, what that opinion &h mid be. Af.er having read the clause in tho Secieury of Mare's despatch, to which be had already drawn the atten ion of the Council, lie conceived that ths'C could be no doubt that it was clearly the du'y of the Council to express an opiniou in some shape or other on the question ; and from what he knew of the views of the colonists generally upon the subject, he thought the Council wou d best represent the feelings and sentiments of the inhabitant? by recommending that no convict?, in whatever shape, should be sent u> this country. His Excellency, in that part of tha despatch thut hud ja«.t be n read, was ctosiied to ascertain the feelings of the people on the subject ; and, as the Council wcie aware, he had done so by addressing a circular to heads of religious denominations, heads of government departments, and Justices of she Peace in the Colony, requesting them to express their views on the subject. Ha believed that while there were a few who in reply had expressed themselves in favour of the introduction of convicts, an ovei whelming inajoiitj weie decidedly opposed to it. Among the settleis ho believed a few mi. lit be found who would not object, to conviclism in its pure state, under strut discipline and surveillance, believing that they might be beneficially employed in the construction of wharves and roads, and other departments of labour, but the great: body of the inhabitants were opposed to any participation in the system whatever, from the conviction that the evil that would remit from the introduction of a large class of depraved characters into the county, who, by the strictest discipline that might be ex icised over them, could not be precluded from mixing with tbe population, would far overbalance any good to be derived from their labour. This feeling extended to all classes and denominations of religious bodies in the country who dreaded the counteracting influence of evil example upon their flocks ; and it extended also to the natives themselves, who have given clear expression to their opinions on the sobject in a memorial to the Queen, signed, he believed, very numerously by them. The despatch to which he had referred pointed to two distinct good results that would be likely to proceed from the introductbn of exiles into New Zealand ; first, that labour would be supplied to the settlers ; and, secondly, that the land fund would ba augmented, and sources created to keep up emigra' tion. (Here the honorable member read part of the despatch.) He must s H y that be felt assured that great difficulties would arise in carrying out the plan that was proposed, unless, indeed, a large military force were to be permanently maintained in the country in order to keep the exiles within bounds. The labour that they would perform would be costly indeed — for, unless kept to work by powerful restraint, men like them vrlio had been so long subjected to the seclusion

of preparatory prisons, would prefer Hie liberty of the Irosli, and, in a country which affords so many oppor- | tunities to evade detection, they would escape to the interior, where they might live an indolent but mischievous life, returning with increased vigour to their vicious habits. As it would be impossible to keep them within the limits of civilised districts, of course it would be impracticable to reclaim from them the cost of their passage out as was proposed. Beside*, the very knowlrde;e that such deduction was to be made from then- earnings here would greatly less n their desire to labour, and drive those, who misfhi perliaps feel inclined to work, to relinquish every wish to labour, and to follow the example and the footsteps of their more indolent companions It would be belter, fte believed, if they vcre to be introduced at all. tint they should be free entirely than bound to such a rule He next referred to the allusion made in the deMrilc'i to the testimony borne by Mr. Kingsford, tho Chiplain at Gibraltar, to the " good and apparently lasting iim.rovemeut produced on the minds of the prisoners." and said that, if such were the case, It would be cruel to drag men away from the discipline that had pi o<luced such happy results, and throw them into cir cuinstances of temptation that would tend to lead them back to a condition worie than that from which they had been partially rescued. Not that he thought that rren owe convicted were beyond all power of being reclaimed. No, God forbid that he should hold ■the opinion that the most depraved were not open to repentance and reformation ; but he thought that tkopportunities of improvement afforded to convicta, ander the humane discipline of the institutions established elsewhere, were such as they should not be deprived of, in older to plungo them into circumstances cf dangerous temptaton here. The hon. member then drew the attention of the Council to what lie consideied the strongest argument against the measure in question, vj/., the tendency to coirupt the native population, more particu'arly the femaopottton, by disturbing the balance of the sexes which wns atpiesent pretty eqjial » a™* expressed 1 egret that it liad not fallen to the lot of a more able person to introduce the questiou to the Council, but the Council nuist look to the importance of the subject, not to the insignificance of the proposer; and concluded by moving that the Council should resolve itself ino a Committee, for the purpose of considering a Despatch from Her Majesty's Principal Secretary of State for She Colonies, dated sth August, 1848, proposing to introduce Exiles or tictcet-o( l--ave men into this coiony. The Attorney-General snid that he had great plea sure in supporting the motion of his learnH friend. As the opinion of the colonists on the subject then andc-r consideration, bad been expressly invited by the Secretary of Sute, and as public opinion hul been expressed in various ways, by memorials and petitions, through the Grand Jury and ot<rrw<*e, he thought 4u.at\f. they, theSu\rjine Legislature of the co'ony, were to assemble without express n% «n opinio.i on a subje. tof sucli vital interest to the colony, that they VrouHl be guiltA of an unp \rdonable neglect of tlioir public duty. For himself, he regardi-d the measure of the propo^fd introduction, ot convicts into New Zealand, as of much more tha-i mf>r°. local or colonial importance. He had all his life enjoyed frequent oppor unities of witnessing tlie administration ot criminal justice, and had always taken the go-Uest in'eu-st in the subject; and, after a lengthened prrnd of obser«j,it:on and experience, he had been led u> t, p conclusion, that, Bt no distant day it would be u m ittcr of profouud astonishment, that a na ion, chniacterizcd by practical sound bense, should, so long luve tolerated, and should so have administered, a criminal code, which, wlietlur considered in its principles ( r in i'a c nseqaeiK'es, would tliMi bo deemed alike, irr>wi<>nal, and absurd. For in whatever li<>ht the tru» ol>j ct of punishratnts might be considered, wluther with some we mighr deem that object to be, solily the prevention ot ciicne — or, with others, that it ii intended partly for the reformation of the criminal and partly for the pi evention of crime, it was undeniable, that we had, by the system we h<id for the last fifty yeais been pursuing, arrived at tins most stun lms? result that, insteai of improving, our punishments liad the effect of depraving the criminal— and, «o far from deterring others from the co-nroi-sion o f crime, there was not a sin»la member of that Council who had had not seen instances of crime actually committed for the sake of the punishment — md what other result could reasonably be expected. We are told on Divine authority, what human experience had ahundantly confirmed, that, •' evil communications corrupt good manners," on the same authority, it lias been declared " that it is not good for man to be alone," — and so wonderfully have the vraysot Providence been ordered in producing and maintaining an exact equality in the number of the sexes, as to con-> stitute almost a peipetual miracle, and to prove the existence of a Supreme Moral Governor of the Uuiverse—and yet, with this knowledge and expenence before us, what was the course which we had so leng been pursuing ? If a member of society committed a breach of the law, however trifling, we seized him, and at great expenes fed him well, clothed him sufficiently, and lodged him securely for months, sometimes for years. We then undertook, at great expends, to ship him on a long sea voyage— and for years afterwards to maintain him under a system of costly superintendance. That however was but the economical absurdity of the system. For we did worse. We herded these men together for yeare — apart from all womim-kimh We chained together the leapt morally guilty, witli the most deptaved. We shut up the novice in crime, with a Jl.undr.jd " spirits more wicked than himself "—and could we bo surpiised, if, after having undergone the full measure of our convict discipline, " the last state of that man is worse than the first." In dealing out this iweeping denunciation, he could not be understood as blaming particular individuals, for it was the system only with which he had to deal. Individually, they were perhaps all more or lets to blame. He, the Attorney- General himself, in the discharge of his official dutiei, had not unfrequentiy to prosecute men, who on conviction would be subjected to the punishment he had so strongly denounced. But lie should consider himself much more culpable, entertaining the opinions which he did on the subject of our convict discipline, if he did noti when a legitimate opportunity preienteil itself, give utterance to those opinion?, with the view of bringing about an amendment of the system which he could not but conscientiously condemn. A divided responsibility was howerer but lightly felt, but, speaking for himself, he must cordially confess that if he were sole dictator, with absolute Legislative and Executive power, though he should have but little hesitation in condemning the criminal populatioa of Oreat Britain to receive by way of punishment, some sharp physical pain, or corporeal punishment proportioned to the nature of the crime,— yet, knowing what he did of the system of our penal settle- I nients, and having the sole and individual responsi- I bility of *he act, he should shrink from consigning aome hundreds of his fellow-oroatuies to what he believed to be the certain moral destruction prepared for them in Norfolk Island, or the P.obation gangi of the neighbouring colonies. But, absurd and mischievous o,s lie believed the system to be, he hud no hope of

seeing it satisfactorily amended, so long as Great Britain had a ready outlet for her ciiminal population in her numerous colonial dependencies. And, until she was obliged to provide for the disposal of her convicts within the limits of her own shores, he feared that she would not bestow that earnest and effectual attention to the j>revantion of crime which would render the modes of Us punishment a question of secondnry importance. On that eenpral ground then, had there been no other, he would deem it his duty to oppos" the introduction into tin* colony of any part of the convict p)puUtion of the mother country. As to the general inexpediency of such a measure, under the peculiar circumsMnces and condition of New %Qd\a\u\, he would state to the Council that, four months ago, a " Circular" letter hid been addressed In him, in common with many of the other members <>f Council and others, reque»ting his opinion on 'he subject. Oi the orcision referred tn, he had, after carefn' consideration, expressed in writing, and at considerable length, the reasons wli'ch appeared to him to rmd \ the in'io'Uiclion of coi.vict3 in New Zealand inexpedient. Those reasons, at tlie time deliberately weighed and carefully exprejsed, and si'tce confirmed by further consideration, he would, with their permission, nowreud to the Council, partly because he believed they comprised, within a moderate cmpiss, mist of the arguments heaiing upon the subject — and because the letter in question contained so ne ex rncts from Lord Normunby's Desp itches, whi.h liis learned friend had le^ret'od Ins inability to supply** The AttoineyGeiiernl then read from his letter as follows — " Waen it w.is proposed to crjet the Isl.i-uls of New ZcaUnd into a British Culonv, it was dpcl ired by H r Majesty's Government to be " a fundamental principle j of the neio colony that no Convict i? ever to he sent thither to undergo his punishment," This declaration was officially communicated by Her Majesty's Secretary of Sta c, to Captain llob'on, on the eve of his departure for Naw Z j iiland. The dispatch containing this declantion was .shoal v afterwards pre entcd to Pailiament, an.l punted-— -ui-l was subsequently dec'ared. by a succeeding Secietary of Stale to be a document " formally and authoritatively communicated to the public* On the faith of this, principle — fins pubhclv pledged — many of the colonists selected New Zealand as a home for themselves an! theii lamil'es; anJ, to myselr, thut- principle has always appeared to be, the. mo^t attractive featute in the colony. E\en in the absence of all t>\,)?rience, I should exptct thaf the impoitation into a community ofab dy of men who had been convicted of almost every description of crime, would tend to lower the standard of monl fecliuc;— <md to weaken the spcuiity of person and propei t\ r . The experience of the neighbouring colonies leivei no room for doubc upon the subject. It appears, however, to btf anticipated, that, under the new system of dis. ipline — viz., a period of separate im/risonmeut at home, followed by labor on public wVks, ether in Great Britain, or at Bermuda, or at Gibraltar— the convicts would anivc in those colonies in a higher n»"i.il condition tban convict 1 , under the old system, whose punishment commenced with transpoitation. In this anticipation I cannot concur. I believe that the enforcing of liborupon criminals is not ea'culatod, in the slightest degree to improve their mor«l condition, or to make ihcm better or ga/er me nbrrs of society ; an! that t',e congrcgitins: togethei of a mass of crimimls of various shades of irnilt, upon n'iblic works, so far from r-using their moral condition, ha 9 a diiect tendency to lower the moral condition of ea-m to th<? level of th? most de-prfi-'O'^. The reports which have been received fiom Gibraltar and Poit Phillip, si'.uf.ictury «s fltPi/ appear to be, :\<e not, I think, founded upon a sufficiently extendud esper ence to be entitled to sue h weight upon 80 grave a quest on, more pi.ticul<tr!y in tho f»ce of our own local es erionce. Some y ars ago a nirni'ir ot hoys were sent to this country from " ParkhursP' prison ; and a confident expectation, in tlieir ca«e, as in|that of the pioposed ''Exiles," was held out that ihe«c boys, ha-itu undergone a careful system of dis ripline, and hiving btjen seh'tcd by the visitors of j Parkhurst Piison. as chglhh for pardon", would prove a valuable acquisition to the colony. But, no sooner had they been landed th in crime rapidly increased ; and the off niter* were lonnd t> be principally Parkhurst Boys. The tcina became a bye^ord ; and so s'rongly impressed wi«re the co onists with their evil propeiibities, that it, in any cnmi'iil tnal, theic was a doubt of the guilt ot the accused, that doubt would immediately have Seen removed from the minds of the jury, if they could have been informed that the prisoner wai a " Parlchursl Boy." The inducements promised to the colonists to receive " Convicts holding tickets of leave," arc — the direct addition that the men themselves wou'd make to the supply of 1 ibor — and the further supply of free-labor to be acquired by recovering from the" Eriles" the cost of their own conveyance to the colony, to be expeuded in the con»veyance of free iminigran s. From the first of these sources a supply of convict laborers would, no doubt, be secured to the colony ; hut I should not look with any confidence to the latter souice for arty considerable supply of free labourers. The facilities for escaping into the Bnsh — and, under the circumstances, the temptation to do so would be so great, that the cost, direct and indirect, of recovering ft om the men the cost of their passage out, would, I think, leave but an inconsiderable sum availahle as a fund for the introduction of free immigrants. To those who believe it to be practicable mid desirable by means of a Lind Fund, to maintain a certain ratio between Capital and i Labor, it may be a quest'on whuther, on that ground, this ever disturbing element should be admitted into the colony. By curufuj attention to the subject, on the part of the founders of the colony, the natural propoition of the sexes, aoaon? the European population, has hitherto happily been pietty nearly maintained. With theexpetience before us of the Convict Colonies, I can conceive no compensation adequate, and, indeed, no justification whatever, for destroying that proportion — moie especially by a preponderance of a body of lawless men. The certain result of such a measire, in New Zealand, would be the swift destruction of the Native race. Already the disproportion of the sexes amongst the Natives is considerable. By promiscuous intercourse, many of their young women, in the neighbourhood of our settlements, have become barren ; and 1 believe th.it tbe introduction into the country, from time to time, of any considerable body of men, long confined in gaol and on shipboard, would, in the course of a very short period, end in the extinction of j the aboriginal race; and be attended, also, with the! unutterable horron which luve been found to follow from violating the law of Nature, by artificial interference with the proportions ot the sexes. The fiee« dotn of a bush life — tlii attraction of the native women— and the desire of escaping fiom the payment of their j,ass>)ge out, would, I believe, induce many of the " E files'" to take nt once to the Bush— the Natives would receive no benefit from tbe association ; and the, condition ot tho Settlers would not b3 improved by being surrounded by a native population initiated into all the mysturies of the practised thief and housebreaker. Neither would it tend to the pru | dent reduction of the military force stationed in the I colony, if every native sett'emeit became the head-

quarters of a hint of laivless Convicts. The so ■ vereisynty of the country having been obtained from the Native Chiefs, partly on the ground that it was essential to their own benefit that it shouWjhe ceded to Great Britain, I think it would weaken tnc confidence they were at present disposed to place in our good faith, if these islands were conveitod into a receptacle for felons ; and that it would afford to mischievous and . dcsifrninsj nun a dangerous argument. Such a measure would unquestionable add a dangerous element to the already numerous and complicated difficulties of New Zealand. Whether well founded or not, tliPie exists a fechng in the minds of many iv favour of a | colony nnoontaminited with what tliev believe to bo the tiint of conviclim,. For the benefit of those who enteiUin sn *Ii an opinion. I think there ought to be at least one colony in this hemisphere in which it should be m'iintnin*s(l as i funduncnt.il principle, that •' no convict slnulrl ever bo sent to it to undergo his punishment." lam ijuit-e aw,»re that Great Britain is in a difficulty " wh.it to do with her convicts." 1 believe it to be a sound principle, that every country should benr the buitlien of it-? own. With reference to the proposed introduc ion of " convicts with tickets of leave" into New Z j aland, I cannot express my opinion moie dearly than in the language of Lonl Normanby, wh n n S°cretiry of Sta'e. ' However much immediate alvAntagi' may be deiived Irom convict labour, the benefit is pnrchasei), at least, at so heavy a price, that even if the welf-ireof th J . colony weie alone in question, I shouul re/ari' the conversion of New Zealand into a penal settlement as a bhort-siglitcd policy. But when I advert (o t lie effect of that measure on the aborii;ia n s and on the administration of the criminal law in lliis kingdom, my opposition to it is fixed and unalterable .' " He (the A'torncy-Gcneral) would now only further remark tint, in addition to the arguments he had just read, he had hcud or neen but one which bore immediately upon the subject. It was, though last, not least, — " tint the in'roduction of convicts into New Zealand would not expedite the period when it would be safe, pnclir-iWp, nml proper to confer upon Us inhabitnnts the full benefit of free ri'piesentativn institutions." Tli". Ai.torney. General concluded by seconding the motion. The Colonial Senetary thought that the reasons that had been ur»ed by the honorable and learned members who had raovfd and seconded the resolution were so conclusive, that the Council would not hesitate to adopt an address on the su'j^ct. Noaily evrry reason that bail been gwen, ami every argument that was urged, had been embodied in the several replies received by the Government to the circular abeady referred to; and lie thought that sufficient matter might b«s collated from those documents alone to embody in an address from the Council. From all the ixperiencs he himself had had while in charge of convicss, and visiting the several penal colonies, ho was of opinion that the system of hoarding men together in large nmspes was not only fraught with baneful consequences to themselves, but bad a fearful tendency to depravatioa of the free colonists with whom they w^re brought into contact. Mr. Kempthoin<> Miought that the Council were very much indebted to tlu learned members who had brought the subject forward in such a e'ear and luminous m inner. For his own p'nt he would like very much to have an address foi warded from the Council to the Home G jvernment, embodying thejobjuctioiis I hat had that day" been i^r^ed against tbe pi oposal of the Secre'a'-y of Suite. fhe Colonial Ticisuipi rose lo express his assent to the pn>|H) ition cf hialeainel fiiend. I3ui in doing so In* would confess that atone tune he was inclined in luvor of the iiiti idnLti'iM ol com h Is, and was so disposed fioui a fo j! in,' of towirds Great Britain, w <jsej 5 e difticuhijj wuv grent in the disposal of her conucts However, lie bad dropped tlut opinion, for he wis now convinced tha l ; the Mother Country had it muo'i in her own power lo ciininish the number of bei cri i nls. Picvnitioii w-is b°tter than cure; and he hopi-'l that the plans of education that had lately been adopted and set in •motion at home, would succeed in rcligiouslv ;md morally elevalins; the people, so lint dime and its perpetrators would decrease in proporlion. The honourable member who brought the subject, forwuid was enUled to tlie best thanks of the Council. Mr. Mfrvimin said, ho believed, as the mover of the resolution before the Council, he lud a light to r.;ply ; but happily foi him iv this case, there was no need of any reply, as every one who ha>l spoken hid raised his voice in fi\our ot hW motion. The subject of the Parkhuiit II -ys r which had been referred to by t!i« learned Attorney General, had not escaped bis own notice as bearing upon this question, but he bad refrained ft om al udmg to it until the return which he had called for li.d been pi iced on the table. He was aware that many of tho*c boys, whom 1 opportun ft s for refonrt itioii 111 Engl aid were veiy great, had turned out b idly wh. n set free in tins colony; but still be should be s'niy to make a sweeping charge against them collet tively, as he knew of seveial good exceptions omon» them, lie would now state io the Council, that on Tuesday next h«i would be prepared with a resolution for their adoption on the subject. The Gave n:>r said, that be wiuld wi^h ti have the resolution that the honourable member would propose placed oti the notice book previous to ilic tune he had nimed for bringing it forward. Hi 3 reason for tint was, tint he thought the Council mi^ht #o a step bayond what seeme'l to be in contemplation by them, namely, tin: mne forwarding ol an addrrss expres ing their di9nppiobation of the proposal to introduce exilej. lie bad already forwauleljto the Secretary of Stite one peli ion from the inhabitants of thii district, and one from the Native inhabitants also ; there had been a petition from the natives of another poitlon of the isiaurts, and one fiom the Legislative i Council of New Munster, all on the same subject, i And in addition to those lie would have forw irded the letters that had oeen sent in to the Local Go veinment, j which Were all, except those irom three mugistrates, opposed to the proposal of heading convicts here. Now hi thought that the Secretary of State would at once understand the views and feelings of the inhabitants on the subject of bis proposal from these several documents ; but the Council might ana stop farther, which he conceived to be their duty, and nuke a proposal which might be viewed as an interest ng one. At present we bend our couvL'ts from our own slnres to ihos<; of another colony, at the expense oi Great Britain, proteiting at the same time against the felons ot other countiies being sent here; but were we to propose to provide lor our own criminals, and keep them hpre at our own expense, wo might then piotest with b -ttc grace than we fan at present. He believed that th -ie was no colony of Great Britain bsttor adapted thsn Now Zealand for the punishment and leforuiitiun ot ciuiinals i tuere ib abundant space within her limns, f om the Throe Kinjs to tb>» Auckland Islands and the Civ - hams, for the beneficial employment of them, lie thought, therefore, that New Z'abind, whilst refusing to become t'>e receptacle of the criminals of other lands, should make provision for her own ; and although he had himself most decidedly objected to the introduction of convicts here, yet he could not call oa Ciieat Britain, to ta\e charge of her own convicts,

wbile }icVa<j consent with ourown system of sending our ctiminals elsewhere. If, therefore, the Conncil should unanimously object to receive convicts from other cotmtiies, the} 1 at least should not he vnvtfl)in% to provide for the custody and jeformatjon ef those of ibis country within itself; and should the resolutions that would be brought forward contain such a proposition, he would promise- lo fyive fltriij all the assistance and support tint was in his power. Mr. Mfrriman ihen proiohcJ to place the terms of his resolution on the notice book on Sdturday next.

Crown F>ands Rill On the motion of the C'oloui.il Secret try, llie Council resumed in Committee on this bill, which was amended bv the addition of several clmws, one of which ghes the power of appen] against the assessment of the Commissioner, the appeal to be made to a Resident Magistrate or two Justices of liic Peace. After which the Committee adjourned. The Governor laid on the fable several of the re • turns onlled for by Messis. Merriman and Barstoiv on Sa'urdny.

ArvnopntATUw nn.x.. The Colonial TreJSuier moved tlif second reading of the Appropriation Bill. The ti'lc and preamble weiP icad r and allowed to stnnd ; but on (ho reading: of the first clnust\ wich include thßvmious item 1 ") in. the E-tirnates for the year 1849—50, Jfr. Merrlman proposed an adjournment of ihe Commitloe ualil Thursday. Commillee adjourned accordingly.

MAURIAOr, ORPINANCC. The Rntveyr-Oencral (hen rose to move llie resold* lion of which lie had s*ivi>n notice on Saturday, on the subprr nf the amendment o ( the Mm r ago Oidmanre" He said that lie believed he was slightly otil ol order when lie {fast adilres eil them on presen'ing a petition on the same subject; but th« arguments that lie then put forward in lupport of the prayer of that petilion were the same that he might now u>e in urging the adoption of his resolution. If it was thought by honorable members that he had Intended, whiie tpeak* ing on flip last occasion, to throw any reflections on any of them, be could assure them that such wag not his intention. He rerlninly said tint invidious distinctions had been raised by the Ordinance, but he did not mean that the framers of (he Ordinance lwd intended to frame it so as it would become oppressive. But that it had become vexatious in its working and operation, he thought no honorable member could deny, now that the Council had been solemnly n'suretl of it by the memorials of several denominations who feel its inconvenience. But if members still thought that it placed no disabilities on any one, and that what Le had said on this subject was wron?, why they would now have tbe opportunity dt proving 1 to the Council that such was the case. If. however, they were persuaded that a lar^e portion of the community were subjected te hardships and vexatious disabilities by this bill, he felt convince! that a feeling in favour of fair play and religion? liberty would actuate the Council to remove .ill dis'inctions from the measure. The Colonial Treasurer could sincerely say that he was ready now, and aliviys hid liceii ready, to exculpate every honorable member win had a part in the passim of that measure from all intention of raising any invidious distinctions by if. The Attorney- General rose and said — On a former occasion, Sir, when these memorials were presented to the Council, I stated it to be ray intention to reserve for a more fifing opportunity any obseivations t might have to offer on the subject of them ; contenting myself, at the time, with a passing remaik oinhe tone, and tanking*? in wlnVh thpy were drawn up—^not, indeed, for the purpose of compl lining of (hat language, but simply with the vietr of expressing the pun which, «s a member of tins Council, I cou'd nol fail to C ol on being accused with having discharged a public duly in a " partial"—" oppressive" — <u»d •' invidious" manner. But the language which miy be painful for us to hear, may be fit and proper for tiie memorialists to em-, ploy. Far having taken care to ascertain that their complaints ar? well founded* it would be a duty they would owe to themselves and to their fellow-colonists to gire utterance to their complaints openly, boldly, and in the most unmistakeable and uncompromiiin!; terms. For, spealtini? for myself, I mugt frankly ac« knowledge that if 1 were living in a country in which I had no power whoever in the making of the laws by which I was to be bound, — and no power whatever in the appointment of the tawmakeis— it would require almost unbounded faith on my part,— in the wisdom, value, and ability of the lawmakers to induce me to receive, with unhesitating confidence, the results of th ir legislative labours — a higher degree of faith in nich qualities than I mint most unaffectedly aclcnow* ledpn I can expect my fellow-colonists to gi*t» me the credit of possessing. It appearß to 03 [he opinion of the memorialists, t l at it is within the power of this Council to confer upon a religious community invidious distinction*. Looking to the main objects of a Church— seeing thit it is to promote the t.pirilu.)l welfare of i s members — I must deny that if is uithin tha power eit'icr of this Council or of, any I>c;isla»iva Assembly in the world to confer any distinction, worthy of the n imo, upon any religious community wlmtever. And 60 far am I from believing it to be within the power of worldly distinctions or worldly wealth to found, maintain, or support such a com - munify, that, if I were wicked enough or malicious enough to wish to deitioy the spiritual vitality of such a community, I would tike care to ally it closely witli thi* State,— l would confer upon it secular powers,— l would provide as objects of ambition for its ministers numerous well. paid Rinecures — and I would endow it with the titiic of Californian gold. When that extra* ordinary man, who las become the founder of a religious community which now numbers its members by the million — and wliuh lias canied his honouml mine into every region of the world — when he became, the succsisfut founder of so numerous a body it was not by means of invidious diitinctions and worthless wraith ; but it was rather by casting all these things behind him, and exhibiting in his own life, personified in action, the piinciplei he r reached, that he succeeded in founding the wide-spread Society which ishonoiued by his name. Of thi» character of that branch of the Sooiety which is settled in this colony I should, under ordinary circumstance*, have felt a delicacy in speaking ; but the subject having already been referred to by my friend on the left — Ihe Surveyor General— T may perhaps be excused if I take thU opportunity of publicly repea'ing what I have frequently privately ex* pressed, that it h.is always beeu a matter of congratulation with me that I shoul 1 have had numerous and repeated opportunities of becoming acquainted with so mmy members of the Wesleyan Ministry anil iVusmoii in New Zealand — and th.it, too, wlieie they ,113 to be seen to llie greatest advantage —in tlio middle of the scene of their labours. 1 hive rejoiced in having enjoyed this opportunity, not only because it lus given, me a high resp.'ct for the individuals whose acquaintance I have thus had the pleamre of nuking, but because it was through them and by their me ms my respect was increased for the community to \vh cl» they belong. I trust, then, the Council will five me full c-etlit when I say that, neithej on gcneul principles, nor from any feeling lowards the Wesiiyan body could I, speaking for myself, have been a party to any m*asire with the object of passing udon

in this colony an intentional slight. And so far am I from desiring to monopolise for the Church of which I am an unworthy member any unfair share of the public wealth, I may also take this opportunity of declaring in public, what I have also in private repeatedly expressed, that it ever has been, and still is, with my Felf, a subject of the moat profound regret that that Church has a/er, for exclusively Church purposes, consented to receive a single rood of Land, gratuitously, rom the Stite. But, au'ain, referring to the subject of invidious distinctions while denying the power of this Council to confer them, I must at the same time acknowledge that they exist, not, indeH. proceeding from this Council, or depending on temporal power or social (lihfinction. Ilavinc paid my tribute of respect to one religious body in this country I may not unfitly refer to another. There Ir, Sir, in tMi colony a body of religious teachers — self-tleming men— little known —seldom heard of— and still more rarely seen ;— a body of men stooped in poverty—buried in obscurity — and living Inboiious lives, with the lole object of promoting, what they believe to be, the spiritual welfare of their fellow men. 1 may dissent from their doctrines, — nnd I may doubt the value of their labours— but their life of self-denial compel* my admit ation and respect. Having premised these general observations. I will now proceed to address myself to the question immediately be'ore the Council. The motion, in substance, I take to be, thitt your Excellency be addressed to introduce into the Council a Bill for the amendment of the •• Marriage Ordinance " having for its object the removal of certain grievance* complained of in the memorials which have been presented to the Council. Before expressing any opnion, on the first point, I must ascertain from the mover of the resolution, whether the motion contemplates the introduction of such a measure during the present session of Council. Assuming that to be the rase, though not so expressed, I feel that I am unable to give to that part of the resolution my assent : seeing that it is one of the rules preicribed for the guidance of the Governor for flic time being — n rule, the propriety of all must acknowledge— tlißt the utmost possible publicity be aiven to every project of a law which it may be designed to submit to the local legislature. Seeing that your Excellency has declared it to be your intention at piosent to submit no other measures than those already on the table — and concurring with your Excellency in the soundness of the reasons which have led to that conclusion, I cannot consistently give my support to that part of the resolution which contemplates immediate legislation on the subject in question. But with reference to the main object of the motion, I hate been happy to arrive at what may be deemed to be a more satisfactory conclusion. I think Sir, that the Memorialists might fairly have addressed the Council to the following effect :— " You, the Colonial Legislature have left to the Church of England (I will not sny conferred upon) certain powers of granting marriage licenses which they had long previously enjoyed. You must have left to that Church such a power under the conviction that the securities with which it is fenced round are sufficient to secure parents from the clandestine maniageof their children while under age— 'he religious community to which we, your Memorialists, belong, not possessing such a power, feel, whether wisely or not, that the distinction is invidious: we therefore pray that you the Legislature will remove that distinction by giving to the Ministers of our community the like power and fenced about with the like restrictions." To he more specific, and to guard against the possibility of mistake I will endeavour to improvise the outline of a Bill which, with a view to the object referred to, I conceiye that the Memorialists might not unfairly request your Excellency to bring before the Council. It would be " An Ordinance to amend the Marriage Ordinance :" it wou'd recite that, by the Marriage Ordinance, it is enacted and declated that licenses to marry, without publication of banns may be issued according to the Ecclesiastical Lawa of the United Church of England and Ireknd, by the proper authorities according to such law 3 for marriages to be celebrated agreeably to the forms and usages of the said Church. That, according to such laws and for the purpote of pw.Tenting the marriage of persons under age without the consent of their parents or guardians, the power of issuing such licenses is limited to a certain manner of persons especially appointed in that behalf and subject to certain cond tions, limitations, and restrictions, preicribed in relation thereto ; and after, further reciting that it is expediVnt to confer the like power and subject to the like conditions, &c, upon the Wesleyan Society, &c, &c— the Bill would proceed to enact that :— lst. It shall be lawful for the Superintend dent of the Wesleyan Mission, &c, lie, for the time being, to issue, and to depute certain other Wesleyan Ministers to issue such licenses as aforesaid^,, 2nd. That before any such license for Marriage shall be granted by any such Superintendent or Minister, one of the parties intending marriage shall appear personally before such Superintendent or Minister, and shall make oath that he or she believeth that there is not any impediment of kindred, &c, and when either of the parties shall be under the age of 21 years that the consent of &c. hath been obtained thereto, 3rd. That every marriage solemnized under and by virtue of the provisions of any such license so to be granted as aforesaid shall be good, valid, and effectual to all intents and purposes whatever. 4th. That every person who shall know* ingly and willingly make any false declaration, &c, for the purpose of procuring any such license, &c, shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor. Who may be Members of this Council when it next may meet, who seeing the various changes and chances of New Zealand will be rash enouga to prophecy : but I must acknowledge that if such a bill were presented to your Excellency for introduction into a Council of which I be a member, I feel that I could offer no valid reasou for withholding from such a measure my unqualified assent. After giving this candid expression of my views I think I shall in future be exonerated from en. tertaining the desire of conferring upon my own church invidious distinctions, or of placing other religious denominations of my fellow colonists, in a degraded posi-, tion on the Statute Book. The Colonial Secretory disavowed all intention on the part of the framersof the bill to place any bar or hindrance in the way of religious denominations in the exercise of their privileges ; but although such was not intended, yet he was comcious that the Marriage Bill did raise distinctions which were the cavie of just complaint from those who, from the operations of the measure, felt themselves placed under restrictions by it. He thought, however, that whatever steps the Governor might think proper to take for the temporary removal of those restrictions, the Council should not call upon His Excellency to introduce a new measure until the Province of New Muniter was represented in the Council. Mr. Merriman said that, for his own part, he would have remained silent, had he not thought that it might be biipposed thit, he took no interest in the proposition before the Council, or that he assented to all that had been said on the subjeot. He had considered ceitain expressions in the petitions and in the resolution as improper — such as the word '• Church" used throughout ; and also the statement that the bill '• conferred" certain privileges upon the Church of

England, which, he contender], it had no power to do. The power to prant licenses was one which the Church of England enjoyed independently of the bill. He was certainly surprised at the charge brought against the bill for enforcing unjust regulations, for he could *ay that there never was any desiieon the part of its framers, or of tho^e who assisted to carry it through the Council, to place disabilities by it upon any religious denomination of Christian people. Of this the Colon'al Treasurer him«elf had home testimony at a public meeting while the bill was before the Council ; and, about the same time, the Colonial Secretary also disclaimed all intention on the part of any membor of the Council to s'*fk for seotauan difference or distinction in the meaiU'e. The sentiments then expressed by the honorable membrrs he locked upon ns of still filter WP ; e ht than aimilar expressions that had now dropped from thorn. The honorable member disclaimed all intention on his own part of int-rferino- with the religious liberties of any section of the community, and stated that although ho belonged to the Church himsc'f, yet he could admire virtue and piety where lie observed such in 'ho conduct of others who differed from him, and concluded by hearing testimony to the high character maintained in these respects by the Presbyterian and Wesleyan colonists of New Zealand. Mr. Kempthorne said that the learned members who had spoken on the subject of the resolution had so fully expressed his own sentiments, that he felt it quite unnecessary to add anything to what had been said by them. He certainly felt pained that the thought should ever have been entertained that the Council wished to deprive any denomination of Christians, especially the Wesleyans, of their religious nghts. fie was sure that i>uch had never been the intention of the Leeislature. The Governor expressed his satisfaction at the liberality of the observations made by hon. members. He would not gloss over the matter by confining the operation of the principle of liberality to the ministers of the bodies named in the Schedule of the Bill. He did not think it was intended, in passing the Ordinance, to establish any invidious distinction. By the law in England, it was Chapels that was licensed for the solemnization of marriage. His intention, in the BUI which he originally introduced, was not to license chapels but persons. He thought the proper plan would be, that each s«»ct should have power to celebrate marriage according to its own usages: and to far as it devolved upon him, he would lose no time in bringing such a plan into operation. His opinion was, that every minister who had foity families in his con. gregation should have the right to marry ; and he wouM also, in certain cnsei, authorise the Governor to extend the right to ministers of denominations known at home, on their arrival in the colony. The marriage Ihws of other colonies exhibited an infinite variety, but none were more liberal than that which he had proposed. He would prefer not giving the power of issuing licenses to any, but that all should have power to marry under certain restrictions ; for he was afraid that it would only bring elements of discord into the Council if, session after session, questions were to be raised respecting the extension of the privilege to religious bodies as they arrived. He therefore thought that two lav? 3 were necessary.— and these he would have framed immediately. One would be in accordance with the outline proposed by the AttorneypGencral, which he was delighted to hear. The other would in substance be the existing law, so far ai its general regulations were concerned, leaving out the subject of granting licenses which would be dealt with in the new Bill. In the meantime he would appoint ministers of those religious denominations who were now prohibited from issuing licenses, to be Deputy Registrar* under the existins Ordinance in the district where they resided. He had already done this for the Lutherans, who had complained that they were enduring great hardships, in consequence of the Ordinance. He concluded by najing that he would without delay have the proposed measure! published in the Government Gazette,' and would submit them to the next General Council ; but of course he could not tell of whom that Council may be composed ; or how they would legislate on them. The Colonial Treasurer was very well pleased with the proposition of His Excellency, and was only sorry that the measures could not be introduced at once, as he knew very well that delays were always dangerous. i However he felt thankful for the instalment that was promised. The Surveyor-General said that as his resolution only included two of those Churches who were shut out by the Ordinance, and as his Excellency's plan would include all, he looked upon it as by far the most preferable, and therefore thought it was his duty to withdraw his resolution. Mr. Merriman then moved that the returns laid on the table by His Excellency be printed. The Colonial Secretary gave notice that he would move that the Council resume in committee on the Crown Lands Bill on Thursday. The Colonial Treasurer gave notice that on Thurs- I day he would move for the further consideration* of the Appropriation Bill in Committee. Colonel Hulme gave notice that he would move, when the Council were in committee on the estimates, that a sum of money be voted to re-erect Government House, Council then adjourned until two o'clock on Thursday, !