HOUSE OF COMMONS. SINGULAR ALTERCATION.

New Zealander, Volume 4, Issue 254, 4 November 1848, Page 3

HOUSE OF COMMONS. SINGULAR ALTERCATION.

I The debate on the Sugar Duties was characterised towards its close by an incidental discussion full of the sharpest personalities After seveml speakers had addressed the house for and against the question under debate. Lord George Bentinrk showed that the proposal of the sugar committee, while it would give a protection of 10s to colonial produce, would be a far superior financial measure to that proposed by the government, and that it would likewise cheapen sugar to the British consumer. The Ministerial plan, he said, would avowedly increase the profits of the employers of slave labour ; and he could not understand how any one who had supported the emancipation of the negroes in our co'onies could vote for such a plan. Finally, the noble lord having endeavoured to establish that the proposed grant or guarantee of .£500,000 for immigration would be useless, proceeded to condemn in the severest strain the Secretaiv for the Colonies and the Under Secretary of the same for having withheld from the sugar committee most important dcs«. patches from thr.e Governor* of Colonies, because they were favourable to the West India interest, and concluded his speech by recommending plain honest dealing on all future occasions, as a source of strength to the GovernmentUpon this accusation— implied by Lord John Rus" sell to be a charge of fraud against the noble lord (Grey) at the luad of the Colonial office — a debate arose, which for the intensity of its personal bitterness, and for the excitement which it caused in the house, has not happily been equalled during the present session of Parliament. To obtain an opportunity of leplying to the charge, without at the same time proceeding with the discussion of the sugar questiou — it was then one o'clock— Lord John Russell suggekted the adjournment of the debate ; and upon the motion for the adjournment, which was proposed either by Mr. George Thomson or Mr. Brotherton, the noble lord made an attack upon Lord George Bentinck which has not often had a parrallel in the legislative proceedings oi the country. Lord John Russell rote and said, in replying: Sir, ns far as I can to the charges which the noble lord has biought against my noble friend the Secretary foi the Colonies, you will first permit me to say that there is nothing in the character of niy noble friend — there is nothing, either in his public or pnvate life — to justify the vioble lord in bringing foiward againat him the charge which lie has this night preferred, (loud cheer*). 1 defy i he noble lord to say that there is in the Character of my noble friend — in anything he Ins ever dune in his public life — that would justify any body in casting the slightest stain on his integrity, (cheering), which is as pure and unquestioned as that of any man who has ever been engaged in the concerns of public life, (cheers). And upon what is it that the noble lord founds this imputation? Is it on a proceeding tl at took place in the Colonial office with regard to a despatch that arrived on the 27th of March. I mean to speak as to that despa'ch, becauss there has been time to examine into the ci.cumstances connected with it, and therefore I am in some degree aware of them. I am not aware of every particular circumstance that may occur as to the transaction of bu mess at the Colonial office. But this 1 know, that it has been for many years the established practice of that office, that when despatches are received, they first go to the paiticular department to which they belong— to the West India department if they are West India despatches ; that there a minute is made upon them ; that they then go to the Under Secretary ot State, and afterwards to the Secretary of State. As »here arrive great numbers of despatches by every mail, increasing »■ they are every year, there are very often large boxes and cases of papers, which the perJons in the different departments of the office have to examine; but that is the usual conduct and practice of the office. It appears, that the despatch according to that oraetice, was, on the 27th March, in the hands of the clerk of the office, to whom the conduct of the West India bumueis is entiustdd; he wrote upon it a minute, that it appeared to him that it w<is a despatch of importance, and that, in his opiuion, it ought to be laid before the committee. On the same day my honorable friend assented to that proposal, and on the 30th Marc'i Lord Grey made a minute that the despatch was to ba laid before the committee. The noble lord then proceeded to explain the "mistake" made by Mr. Hawes, through extracts from the evidence of that honorable gentleman, given before the sugar committee ; and havmsr referred to the despatch of the 27th March — that upon which, as will be remembered, Lord George iientiuck's original accusation against the Colonial office was founded, he said, " It appears to me that the noble lord is not in any way justified from the facts that have just been stated iv supposing that my noble tnend wished to conceal or suppiess any despatch, or to withhold it .fiom the committee. (Hear, hear ) Had it been his wish to withhold or suppiess despatches, his object would have been much rather to withhold them Ironi the knowledge of this house, in which the debate was to take place, than from the knowledge of the committee, (hear, hear,) but it appears that no sooner had the despatch come to his hands, than he desired it should be given to the committee. (Hear, hear). Now, I must say, gene» rally, with regnid to these matteis, quite apart lioin the conduct of my noble friend, and generally with regard to the conduct of men h'gh in public office, that tbebe mean frauds, tbese extremely dishonourable tricKs which tlie noble 10/ d imputes to them, are not the laultb and characteristics of men who are high in public ojjice m this cuuutr.v. (Cheers.) _T-kei_die.

characteristics of men who are engaged ia pursuits which the noble lord «long followed. (Cheers, answered by cries of ob, oh.) The noble lord very greatly distinguished himself in detecting a fraud of that nature with respect to the name or the age of a hone, (great laughter, followed by loud cries of oh, oh,) in which he showed very great quickness of apprehension. (Renewed laughter, and cries of oh, oh.) But when the noble loid conies forward, and imputes to a man of the character of my noble friend, (some cries of oh, which were immediately drowned in cheers,) when he imputes to a man of the character of Lord Grey, fraudulent conduct, with a view of suppressing the truth, with a view of evading the disclosure of the truth, I say he totally misconceives the character of Lord Grey. (Much cheeiing.) He totally misconceives the character of any roan with whom I have been acquainted, of any party who has been in high office in this country for a long terra ot years, in throwing out these imputations, utterly unfounded as they are— (cries of oh, oh, met by renewed cheers,) — utterly unfounded as they are, I repeat again, because to charge Lord Giey with any like fraud — with anything like meanness— is an irn» putation to which he, of almost all men, is the least liable. (Loud cheers). I say, it is truo generally, that no such charges cm safely be preferred. They | belong rather to those pursuits in which the noble lord (vehement cries of oh, oh, followed by cheers prevented another word of ibis sentence from being heard.) And I am satisfied that when the whole ot these matters come to be discussed, ie will be the generul opinion of the world, that the noble lord has done in this instance, as he has done in some other instances— one I remember, of a right honourable gentleman lately the Prime Minister ot this country, (hear, hear, aud oh, oh,) another occurred within these few days, with respect to a gentleman who holds subordinate aituation in the office of the Board of Trade (hear, hear, and a laugh) — and I say, that when the noble lord mukes those reckless imputations, it will be fouad that he will not injure ihe character of those whom he attacks, but lie will injure his own character for common justice and honour. The genttlemen who rpport the debates for the morning papers in Parliament are precluded by the nature of their arduous avocations from indulging in description ; and consequently the accounts ot the scerje that ensued on this occasion are imperfect. It wa* one rarely witnessed even in the House of Commons, where so much that is objectionable nightly passes under notice, of the tumult that took place. In the midst of this violent excitement, a lull was produced by the iis{ng of Mr. Disraeli : Sir, (said the lion, gentleman) I canuot help thinking that had the noble lord who hat just addressed the house been silent— bad he left the debate to terminate as it seemed about to terminate (hear, hear)— or if he had intrusted its future destinies to the volunteer who suddenly ro»e up to move the adjourment (hear, and a laugh) both the reputation of the becreiary of State for the Colonies and the reputation of the noble lord (loud cheers from the Opposition) wculd not h .ye suffered (cheers, and couuter cheeis). The house can judge whether the noble lord the Secretary of State can be vindicated witli much success (renewed cheers, and counter cheers). The noble lord has chosen his own battlefield. The debate might have been adjourned; he m ght have met the statement of the noole lord the member for Kind's Lynn — he m ght have met any statement which had been bi ought forward evidently with so much consideration, and which, was supported, let me remind the house, ryht or wrong, with to much detail and wi h so much testimony (hear, he.ir)— thenobjelordin the legitimate method might hive taken the o, poitunity winch was offeied to him to meet in the regular course of the debate, and he might have made an answer to the statement of my noble friend, and he might have confuted him if it were in lis power to confute him. I admire the ardour of a man who cannot be restrained when he feels it in hi* power to fulfil a great duty (hear, hear, and a )auf?h) ; but then let me remind the liousj that ihe condition ot such conduct is tliat the duty bhall be fulfilled (loud cries of hear, hear). Has the noj c lord said anything which ought to influence the opinion of the house upon the subject (no, no). The noble lord commenced his answer by a miserable criticism, and some of the nutine of office— namely, that a minute was made upon a despatch, and that did not imply, as my nob'e friend casually seemed to inier, that a discussion hud taken place. But what has this to do with the great merits of the case (hear) ? My noble friend made a statemeut that there had been a supprcssio veii (hear, hear), on the part of a high functionary of the countiy. He produced the cases of the despatches of three governors of colonies that had been suppressed (hear, hear), thoie despatches containing most important information on a subject of the greatess interest, which has been submitted to a committed of this house. What is the answer of the noble lord ? He only notices one of the three casei, (laughter and cheers from the opposition benches), and he only notices that instance to »ay he knows about it (renewed laughter). It is not decorous, it is not decent in the noble lord to mccc a statement so detailed and sj powerful as that made by ray nobla fiiend in such a manner and in such a spirit (hear, hear, and cheers,). What is it to me i What is it to the peopls of England, that the noble lord opposite, and the great gentlemen and noblemen with whom he acts, are by his ipse dtxit incapable of anything that is improper or fraudulent ? That, may be the op.nion of the noble lurd. I, for one, wish it ever to be the opinion of this house and of the country (hear). But that high reputation can only be cherished by meeting charges boldly, by meeting them with counter evidence, and not by attempting to ride over a cuse like this by appealing to his high position and to the pedigree of his colleagues, (lau^uler, and loud and prolonged cheering), »nd by aslung the House of Commons whether they think it possible that such a very great gentleman and nobleman of such high descent can be capable of conduct which it hm been proved before this bouse and the country they have pursued. (Cries of no, and prolonged cheering). I hardly know, Sir, whether I should deign to notice some ot the observations of the noble lord (cheers from the opposition benches). How one of his sneers against a noble pastime ot this country uiiy be estimated by hon. gentlemen in this house I stop not to inquire (a laugh) : but this I know from his own admission— that the pioceedings of my noble friend, in the very case to which the noble lord rereried, as on subsequent occasions in this hou^e, proved of good service (cheers) : and I believe the same determined spi.it ot honesty (renewed cheers), the same indefatigable spirit of investigation, the same courage that will njt be cowed (hear) by any bravo, whatever may be hit position (loud cheeung). The same high spirit that will not be bullied either in the ung or on the Treasury bench (cheers). The same acuteness, aud the same courage, may be brought to bear with great effect in an luvebtigaticn of the in inner in winch our colonial affairs are carried on (hear and cheers). 1 ask you to remember that the case in private lflc to which the nob.c lord the First Minister of tlie Crown referred wuh such excessive <as>te and such perfect lemuei fljud cheers j led to th s consequence ■^LuiiA^flimL.

of the gentlemen of En^l) nil, as great gentlemen any of the noble lord's colleague*, met together express their gratitude to .\\y noble friend for Ins goi duct, and to thank him for having vindicated th~ purity of a pastime which has degenerated with the spirit of the age (cheers and laughter). And who, 8U 1 , was the chiii M man of that meeting ? Ilia Grace the Duke of Bedford (loud and cintmued cheering.) But, because the Duke of Bedford is a steward of the Jockey Clvb — because he was the clmrman of ths meeting; which did honour to my noble friend, and founded that contribution which my noble friend, u.ilike other public characters, rc r used (laughter and loud cheering) and handed to tint club whose honest feeling he wished to improve, as he wishes to improve the moral lone and honest spirit of the Colonial Office, (laughter and cheeis) — is the Duke of Bclfoni on these accounts disqualified for the office of a Privy Councillor (hear) ? Doe* the noole lord the First Minister of the Crown shrink faun his Gr.-ace of Badford when any subject of importance, especially re-< spectiug the administration of our colonies, is concerned i Does he never condescend to consult that man of great sagacity, excellence, end honour ? — or, when he meets him, docs he say, «' A vaunt! I and my colleagues are mm of such hi»h clnrncrer that we cannot condescend to speak to n man that b3i be-n seiu at Newmarket (laughter and cliiers). Sir, the chaigea made against the Colonial Office are befjie ike country (laughter and cheet=). They lvust be aiuwered (u« newed cheers). IVIy noble fiiend did not preside over the committee for four months of unparalleled labour to allow that such an answer as has been so unnecessarily volunteered to-nhjlit is satiafactniy. This is the return of the government to the chairman of the committee (hear, hear). But this reminds me that the evidence taken before that committee was for fifty-six days before the Secretary of State ; ho was perfectly aware of all the evidence (hat was given ; he wis fully cognizint of all those cross-examinations which have so often been refeired to to-night. J say, sir, that these charges aie before the country They have not beeti lightly nnde. and they shall not be lightly satisfied (loud cheers). Is th s case to be regarded as if it was the first time that despatches have been treated unsatisfactorily by an administration ? Why, remember the despatches of Sir Alexander Burnes, the most important passage* and paragraphs of which were suppressed. Gut there is a gieater question than the conduct of the Colonial Office elicited by the observations of the noble lord lhr Fr>,t Minister of the Crown to-night. The question between the Secretary of State and my noble triend must be settled, and it can only be settled by the charges being amply met and completely confuted (hear, hear, from Mr. Hawes) I leave the greater point to the House of Commons. Thty must vindicate the freedom of debate, and show — as they have done pretty significantly this evening — that they will not tolerate such conduct as has been exhibited by the noble lord ths First Minister of the Crowu. This speech, unpremeditated as it was daring, produced evidently a powerful effect upon the house : an effect which was not effaced, nor even modified by the address of Mr. Labouchere, which immediately fol* lowed it, nor by that of Sir Edward Buxtou, who stepped forward in aid of the Colonial Office. Mr. Amsey tr.ed to " aggravate" his voice to the requisite pitch of that stormy assembly ; but he failed in making himself heaid, and the Under Secretary for thd Colonies only threw oil on the fire that was then raging, in the observations he madu in his own justification. Mr. Hawes, after designating tbe charge of Lord G. Bcntinuk on a recent occasion — that involving" tbe suppression of the despatch of Mirch 27th — as a " shabby imputation," proceeded thus : " The noble lord now pursues the s^me course, bringing a charge against me without notice on Friday night, so that I cannot meet it before Monday. The noble lora, knowing that it is impossible for me, in respect to charges of this kind, to meet them without documents and dates, again selects Friday night (cries of oh, oh, and cheers) to fling abroad his calumnies till Monday, I will state the t uth to this house (cheers, and cries of oh, oh). But that is not all. The noble lord has made a charge whi -h 1 maun to call on him to prove ; and which he ought not to Lave made, unless he is in a condition to prove it (hear, hear) . I tell him that the charge is wholly and entirely false (cheers, aud loud ciies of order, and chair). The Speaker—The honorable member does not mean to say, I presume, that the noble lord has knowingly made a lalse charge (hear, hear) ? Mr. Hawes — I simply said to the house that the charge is distinctly falup, and the noble lord best knows himself how far he is liable to the other imputation (order). What is the charge which the noble lord made (interruption) } I suppose I ana addressing myself to gentlemen (cries of order, and chair). And I suppose that when a gross and scandalous inaputatation is cait on me, I am to be heard by those gentlemen who heard and cheered the charge (cheers). What wai that charge ! It was that all these minutes on that despatch, made by a gentleman in the Colonial Office of the highest respectability and honour, and who is known to gentlemen in this house who have served as Secretary of State in that department, were concocted — that the Assistant Under Secretary of State for the 1 Colonies, that I and my noble friend (Lord Grey) concocted that minute, and dated it after we apprehended, 1 suppose, thut our fraudulent conduct would be discovered ! (hear, and cries of no)— < that we hastily and shamefully (no, no) — yes, thut was ike charge— *l am not going to let the noble lord off— (laughter) — that we shamefully, disgracefully, dishonourably concocted — for that was the word— that minute afterwards, in order to enable us to explain it to the house. And is it the conduct of English gentlemen here to make such charges without notice ! (Hear, hear, and confusion.) I claim the pro Lection of; the house from that charge. 1 ask for tint ehaige to be investigated (cheers — an hon. member, Mr. Disraeli, we believe, observed— that is riding off). " Xi« din* off," indeed! Wlun the noble loid ha-, mnde a chatgd agruibt a humble individual like myself, whose private and public cluractei depends ou the ti uth or groundlessness of it, and when I call on him to prove: it, his Jidus Achates stands up aud says I am " liilmg oft*' (cheers). Tint is the senhe ol hoaor and gentlemanly feeling (cheers, aud cri^s of oh !) 1 call oa the noble lord to prove that charge (cheeis.) Mr. Disraeli—- He has not made it. Mr, Hawes.— l am astonished. Tiie noble ord did or did not say that that minute was concurred. I heard tbe word (oh, and cheers). The noble b'ct does not now wi hirmv the word. It liv used it, 1 ca)[ on this house, and every gentleman here, to insist on that charge being investigated and proved (che«r). I say that it is absolutely and entirely fuUe (chem,. With respect to the other charge whuh the noble lod has made, 1 will take tiie first oppoi tiuii'y a^ain of enquiring what foundation ttieie i>, fot it — [ belie vi> thae it none— jnd 1 will state the result to lhe houai* (hear, hear)t Lord G. Jisntinck — [ shall not bmlj horn ont hide of the house to the oth r ch'ri,c:> of taUwimni (ciieei.s); but lbs is what 1 siv an<i charge tbe lljuoi t!.. c Jnder-S-eietAiy of biate tin the ' "lon ef .a^^^L

up suWquentlv (cries of oh, oh, and cheers) to his examination of the sth of April, ho was troubled with the shortest memory since the days of green ba X notoriety, when Theodore Majocrhi Rave his answer of " Non mi ncnulo" (cheers and lnughter). That was tho charge I made, and the hou mpmber .may take \\U option whether or not, after these various djicussions and various minutes *o which he affixed his name, he on the sth of Apiil could not remember the 'receipt of any despatch of an important nature (cheers) — that he could not on the sth of April recollect, notwithstund* ing three- separate discussion! on the subject of that despatch and its importance — that any important despatch, or that any despatch connected with the agriculture and boaal state of Jamaica, had been received (cheers). That is the charge I make against the honourable gentleman, and I care nothing whether he mnkes his defence againit the one or the other ot the horni of a dilemma on which I place him, and from which he cannot escape (cheeri). And though I will not say " this is false," and though I will not condescend to use the terms the noble lord opposite has used towards me (chfers)— though I feel nothing but regret that any one of the name of Russell, and above all the brother of the Duke of Bedford, whom I so much esteem and look up to, should have catt such an insinuation as he has done on the merits of this impeachment of a high Minister of State ; lam prepared to stand before thia house and the. country, and to be judged, not by charges of falsehood such as have been made on the other side of the house, but on the acts as they can be maintained or refuted. (Thii addreis created a profound sensation in the house.) Lord Palnicrston and other honourable members subsequently spoke on the subject. The noble lord presented the question in his usual clear manner : he said the matter really tey in a very narrow compass. It was of no use to bandy words across the house — it was a question of fact. The hon. gentleman, the Undersecretary for the Colonies, told the Committee that no despatch of importance had been withheld and then went on to lay there was no despatch of the *ort referred to, ai to the distress of the colonies received except recently, and then came the third aniwer of the hon. gentleman, that whatever despatch there wai (not of the sort referred to) should be laid before the Committee. There was no doubt that the despatch in queition was never before the committee. Then came the question, was there any unfairness in inferring that it was kept away otherwise than by accident ? Two other despatches which were also alleged to bear materially on the question at issue, were not laid before the committee. That was an allegation in aid, if he might so speak. These despatches might or might not be important— upon that gentlemen might differ* but the question was, were they laid before the commiitee j and if they were not, then came the question, why not? (Hear.) When papers alleged to be of gr«at importance to the inquiry pending were not produced, they cou'd not be surprised if persons came to the conclusion that those documents were improperly withheld. It might, or might not be true, but it rested with the parties who said that that was not the cate to prove it, and it did not do to bay that the papers were not sent by the person whose duty it was to send them. It certainly did appear strange that ail the papers ronMng for one side of the question were sent, whilst those on the other side were not (heai). But he hoped this matter would be cleared up. [On the fo'lowing Monday, Lord Grey in the Lords, and Mr. Hawei in the Common*, went into a lengthened explanation on the subject of the missing despatches, the substance of which wa?, that the despatches and other documents were ordered to be laid before the committee, and ai the enclosures which they covered were actually sent down, it was supposed the despatches had been also sent, whereas they had been dctnined to be copied, and were afte»ward« forgotten. When therefore Mr. Hawes stated to the committee that " no other" despatches had been received, he supposed that those in question were befoie the com mittee. The charge of fraud therefore failed, but one o gross negligence w«s proved.]