HOUSE OF COMMONS. Tuesday, April 13. THE CHARTIST PENTION.

New Zealander, Volume 4, Issue 236, 2 September 1848, Page 3

HOUSE OF COMMONS. Tuesday, April 13. TH E CHARTIS T PENTION.

Mr Thornley brought up a special report from the Committee on Public Petitions, suiting that a gross abu c of tlio right ol IMitioii had taken pi ice in the ruse of the Chartist petition, presented by Mr. F. O'Connor, who hud stated Unit it wan signed by f>,7oi',ooo, whereiiH it hud only 1,975,490 signatures attached to it. Of these, whole pagca were wiitton by the same hand, while in numerous initnnceh the names were gross forgere«. O>c of them was (l Victona Ilex," "the Duke of Wellington," &c, and in many cases tlie most offensive uud disgusting words stood in the place of signal urea. Mr. F. O'Connor said if a select Committee were granted he would prove the report to hi incorrect, and ihat, in fact, Ihtrc were more than five millions of bonu fide signatures to the petition ; and he would befuie long present a petition signed by thiee times the number of people, lie had no doubt the fictitious signatures might be truced to the spy syhtem established by the government. Lord J. Russell believed the report of the committee on petitions to be coriect. The noble lord suggested to Mr. P. O'Connor that, perhaps, the National Convention wiib lttell p»it of th» «py sjhtcm. The Earl of Amndel and Suirty ridiculed the proclamaiion ot the Cbiutists, declaring th.it 500,0 0 men bail met on Kenmiigton-common on Monday last.— They did not, at mos>t, exceed 2. r ),0!)C mm. Mr. J. O'Conuell denied tlmt Hie liish Hepenlcrs in London had mude common cause with the Chartists. There vveie no 1 , at most, 2,01)0 ttepeuleis on Kenning-ton-cominon. Sir R. In^lis also commotited on the gross cxnggemtion piuctised with ic-.pe.ct to the signatuies to tins petition. f lhe paities who were guilty ol such exaggeration weio tlie greatest enemies of the right of petition. Mr. Ciipps observed that his attention had been called to this petition by the audacious asnertion of Mr. O'Connor tint it wus signed by 5,700,0 0 persons, a number considerably larger than the adult population above 21 years) of age in this country. When that usieition was made, he was not aware Unit the petition lud been signed by women ; but on taking up one of the vhevts at random lie found the naniCß ot several women attached to it. lie then desired clciks to examine the signulurcs in some sheets also taken at random, and they hud ascertained that out of every 100,000 namea 8,20(> with those of women. Mr. O'Connor had nated in his place that the petition weighed live tons. The committee on petitions had weighed it in the scales ; and its weight was only f>| cwi. At any rate it had been brought 10 the house m three crazy cabs. He did not wish to throw ridicule on the peiuiooers, but on Mr. O'Connor he wished to throw both ridicule and obloquy. If ever mun by vugue and extravagant assertions had laid himself open to the obseivutiou that no credence could be placed m anpthing which he said, it was Mr. O'Connor ; and he now said for himself that he would nevei Inlicvu Mr. O'Connor again. Of all the dreadful delusions which he had ever heard none was ever more dreadful than that which hud led to the robbery and uiter ruin of ten individual* at Campcrwell by the associates of Mr. O'Connor, lie wunted to know whether another meeting was to be held to sanction such a mass ot ribaldry, obscenity, and impiety us was to be found in this Chartist petition ? The name ot the Duke of Wellington was -signed to it mnctien times, and every time with the most indecent allusions ; so, too, w«h the name of Colonel Sibthorp. One of the sheets of the petition also contained this avowal, — " We could not get paid for any more bignatuics to-day." If he had stumbled on these facts when the petition was prciented, he certainly should have submitted that u ought not to be received. Mr. O'Connor now said that he could have got the petition signed by three times as many t aaies. The males of England above 15 years of age were only 7,000,000 ; but he had no doubt that if IVlr. O'Connor used the same machinery to obtain names, he could get it bigncd, by similar fabrications, by 50 j, 000,000 names. Mr. i\ O'Connoi said he by no mcom held himself accountable for everything contained in every petition he presented to thai house. As to the personalities ol Mr. Cripps he would answer them elsewhere. The honorable gentleman then bowed to the Speaker and withdrew. Mr. J. A. Smith could state, fioin his own inspection oi Kenniiiglon-coinmon, that at no period of Monday did it contain more than 15,000 peisuns. Meanb had been taken to ascertain how many persons the common would contain wneii closely packed together. ii0,()70 men was the maximum, and never more than a fourth of the common was occupied on Monday. The number ot persons in the procession did not exceed 8000 men, and yet Mr. O'Connor had stutcd thenuncl»en present at half a million. Colonel Sibthoipe said his name hod been attached to the petition, but it was a " damnable lie" to huy he had ever signed such trash.

M. Hume thought it inconsistent with the* dignity of the house that 0110 member should tell another he was unworthy of credence. The proper course for Mr. Cnpps would huve been to givi> notice of a morion to bring the alleged Inbricaiions and forgeries in ihe petition under the consideration of the house. — Mr. It Yoiko thought the House should fee! obliged to Mr. Cripps for having denounced Mr. Il'.I 1 '. O'Connor's monstrous assertions. — Lord Castlcreiigh thought it not right to censuic an honorable member who wus not present to defend himself-— Mr. B. Cor-hrnnc asked Loid J. Russell if, after what had occurred with respect to the petition, he would w.iite the time ol the house m discussing it next evening. — L'>rd <l. Russell said he would udhere to the phdgc he hud given to the honorable member for Nottingham. Several lion, gentlemen now called the Speaker's attention to the fact that Mr. O'Conner hail left the house, and in their opinion for the putposo of sending a hostile message to Mr. Cripps. — Lord John Russell immediately moved that Ihehon. member be ordered to attend in his place forthwith. — The Speaker said he had not understood Mr. O'Connor in that light, or he would have called on Mr. Ciipps to retract any offensive expressions he might have used towards Mr. O'Connor, and on the latter gentleman to give an assurance that ho would pioceed no lurthci in the matter The hon. member for Nottingham should remember that every hon. member was held responsible for the petitions he presented) that they contained nothing disicspcctlul, and that the signatures to them were genuine. The right hon. gent'eman then called upon Mr. Cripps to retract the olfensive expressions he had used.— Mr. Cripps said he most snncrely felt the truth ot the words he had employed, and as a gentleman he would not withdraw them.— The Speuker persevered, and at li-n^th obtuined from Mr. Ciipps Home qualifications of his language, and declared that he understood the hon. member to Hay that if he had used any unpailiainentary words he was willing to retrnct them. The order was then issued for Mr. O'Connor to appear in Irs pluce forthwith. At a subsequent period of the evening the messenger returned, and informed the House that he had seen Mr. O'Connor, and seived him with the order of ths Speaker. He Hiked what the result would he if he did not attend; to which the messenger replied, that that would depend on the pleasure of the House, — hir G. Grey then moved that the Spcukei issue his warrant lor the hon. memhei's apj>rt hcnsion, winch was agicud to. — In the course of the debate which followed, the Scrgcunt-aUArms announced that Mr. F. O'Connor wns in custody, bir G. Giey then moved tint Mr. O'Connor should be immediately discharged in order that he might attend in his place ; which was agucd to, and the hon. member soon after took his place — The bpeukcr then called on Mi. Ciipps to repeat his re traction ; which he did in a very handsome manner. Mr. O'Connor exculpated the Speaker from any want ot attention to the duties of his oflice, and accepted the woids of Mr. Cripps as a Buflicient excuse for the, offensive words which he had used Ha hud now a higher duty to perform, and that was to inform the house that he should abandon the motion for taking the Chartist petition into consideration to-moriow. He would not piactieo any delusion on the House hun» self, nor be accessary to the practice of any delusion by others. He left the petition between the house and the country, and ulao between the committee and those who bigned it. Tuhsday, April 18. The llou'-c met at 12 o'clock. CnnwN ami Govi:iinmknt SitcururY Bill. After Isir. G. Grey, in answer to a question from Mr. G.A. Hamilton hud read to the house the correspondence vvhuh hud passed between the le-uloia of a loyal association at Dublin, and the Lord-Lieutenant of heland, relative to the expediency of assembling in arms, the order of the day w<ib moved for the third leading of this Bill. Mr. Hume repeated his objections to the measure, and moved that it bu read a third time, that day six months. Sir De Lacy Evans objected to certain portions of Die Bill, but could not concur in an indiscriminate eenfcuie of it. Mr O'Connor contended thai this Bill took away the light of bail and traverse, and was, theiel'orc, a violation of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. He vindicated his own political conduct nt some length, and denied that he bad ever recommended an appeal to physical force, or to the assistance of a foreign country. He joined Mr. Hume in opposing this Hill, which would deter men from ■peaking, leat they should violate Us provisions. Mr. Headlam and Mr. Seymer declared their intention of voiinij for the third reading of the Bi 1. Mr. P. Wood could not let the Bill be read a third fime without entering his final protest against that which is conceived to be a direct invasion of those principles of settled law which had now existed in this country for 500 yearn. Mr. Adderley made a speech in favor of the Bill, in which he passed some seveie stnctuies on the triumvirate of 6edition-mongcrs in Ireland, who had applied lor French intervention to carry the repeal of the union. Mr. Mitchell would not lend his coun enanee to a foolish agitation, which li not put down, would destioy the trade and commerce of the nation, and thei'ctorc gave his cordial assent to this measure. Mi. Horaman accepted the Bill in the shape in which the House had determined to grant it. He warned the Government that it must enter upon a new system for Ireland, and must seek to conciliate and not to conquer it. The Solicitor. General entered into an able argument to controvert the historical and legal propositions laid down by Mr. P. Wood in his speech against the Bill. Sir K. Peel said he could not allow the Bill to pass without dibtinctly avowing his approval of its provisions —•' 1 think it is right," said the right honorable baronet, <l | hat men who have not the dignity of traitors, shall not cover thenuelvcs with the illusion that they are so. cheers.) I wish to redurc them to the position of felons. (Continued cheering.) Sir, I make great allowance for those who, inspired by sn ardent love ol liberty, are ready to sacrifice their lives and fortunes under circumstances of great necessity, and when liberty is ically in danger. I have great admirotion lor those who are ready to set an eAample of peril to others, a>d engage in a common cause. Jiut I have no sympathy, no respect, no admiration for those who involve the ignoiaut in the cupitul punishment of treason, and content themselves with escaping from all responsibility (Loud cheers.) Sir, 1 cannot conceive a moie detchlabio character than the mnn who, for the purpose ot giutifying his personal vanity, in the hope ot having his muiid associated with sple did names, | that aie included in the category of traitors, ui(?es on ihemuemble deluded followeis of his spec dies or wutnigß, but is not ready to share with ilium a common fate (loud cheers). 1 tejoice to see bm:h choratteis reduced, as they ought to be, to the condition of lelons (cheeis). Lei u.s keep those frogs who aie croaking Hcdition in the marshes (a laugh), in tluir propel position, and not let ihem puft themselves into the dimensions of the nobler animals that bellow treason (cheers uud luughtcr), lherefoie J approve of that portion ot

the Bill which enables the Government lo prosecute a < felons those who act na felons." He warned Mr. O'Connor that those who drew 100,000 poruons tof?etlier could not foresee what might l>e the consequences. After hhowiiifj that thut gentleman's declarations of loyalty weic not vrry Mitisfaetory, he said that what he (Sir ltoberr) had read and witnessed in the lust ten diiys, he s.iw proof that there wns good reason for stmigthening for a time the hands of her Majesty's Government. lie referred to the magnificent demolish ulion of loyalty renently made in the metropolis und. exhorted the Government and the legislature to encourage those wliOhC exertions hml been i>o admirable, in the good course on which they h.id entered, by showing 1 their united determination to uphold the institutions o( the couutry in all their leading principles, anil on their ancient foundations. He then refened to the condition of France, and declared it to be hi» firm belief thut the security of every existing government depended on a rigid abitinence from any interference in the transactions of th.it country. Referring to the newborn doctrines upon capit.il in labor, he said—" Let us wnit for the result •ft this experiment. Let vi calmly contemplate whether it ha possible for them to foicw capital to employ incJiiHtty— whether they ci»n contiavene the decree of Providence, and reduce all men, without reference to habit* or sticngth, to receive the same wagci (cheers)- Foi Go l'« nuke give that social principle the mime fair tuai as you are übout to bco given to the political principle. (Cheers.) But Ido c.'U neatly trust — I have that confidence m the good senso of the working classes of thin country — Unit they will believe that no lulae delusion of the compulsory sharing of profits, no enmity directed against capital, no distinction of competition among individuals, no overpowering of individual cnterpii/,0 by Government undertakings ut tho public expense— can possibly be for the benefit of the working classe«, or have any other ultimate result than involving them in misery and ruin. (Loud and continued cheering ) Upon the political principle! I pronounce no opinion— hut it would be a bhamdul suppression of the truth, without unogfttiny to ourselves too much of the liberty of speech, not to predict fatal consequence! to those social expeiiments now in progress in other countries. (Loud cheers.) Sir, I have been diverted for a short time from the immediate objects of this Bill. (Cheers.) I believe, at I have stated, that there arc political grounds lor Una temporary incientiu in the authority of the Government. I will not attempt to foicu on tht» Executive Government any powers they do not require. All that \ have to deal with now is the question whether, for two y«arn, ho who incites people to intimidate the Legislatuie, not by woids, but l>y deelamtioii of wur, shall be subject to (he penalties of felony : I think the circumhUiiccs of the tune justify the demand. I believe the people of thiscoun'ry will be encouraged to ihe continuance of these exertions upon which, and not upon police, nor upon armies, the. tranqmli'y, if not the safety, of Una country depends. (Loud und continued cheering.) Mr. Bright and \Tr. Muntz still retained in fullforco their objections to this mcanuic. Lord J. Russell briefly ndvetted to the different objections uiged by different members against thin Hill, which, he believed, would tend much to the security of (he peace, of the empire. He then referred to the exciting and inflammatory language used in Dublin and o her parts of Ireland, observing that it might lead in sonic parts of the country to outrage and insuircctinn ; but that outrage and imurroction would be put down, because the Government hud the means of so doing at its dispohal, in the loyalty and affection of the peopln, and in the force of the army, whoie fidelity had been most foully unil systematically belied in various ways, both in and out of that house. Jle then jnoceeded to state that immediately after ISaatcr, the House would proceed to the discussion of measures which related to the political state of the Irish population. Referring to Mr. J. O'Contiell's motion for the repeal of the union, he showed that all the grievances of which Mr. Gruttau complained in the Irish Parliament, and which rcmuined unredrcssed by that Parliament, had been redressed by a Parliament ot the United Kingdom. He declared his readiness to listen to any proposition supposed by the great majority of Jrit.h member*, having for us object the improvement of the laws and condition of that country — hut by discussion (if t lie choice bhould be for Argument), and by force (if recourse weie had to arms), he was determined as long as there was breath and lite in him, to oppose the repeal of the Legislative union. The Noble Lord then resumed hit scat amid the loudest chcciu. The House then divided, when the numbcri were— For the third leading 295 Against it 40 Majority 255 The Bill was then read a third time and pasted amid loud cheers from both sides of the [lout>c.