[Continued from the third page.]

New Zealander, Volume 4, Issue 215, 21 June 1848, Page 5

[Continued from the third page. ]

usoges ofcivi i/,ed life, and who had been working as labourers under the guidance of white men. (Hear, hear, hear !) These people weie malting magnificent roodi, nnd engaging in othet kinds of labour lliat would do honour to any ciwlizcd country, uhile the tractable disposition they showed, and their rfadiness to amalgamate with Europeans, were unexampled among many other of the savage tribes with which they weie acquainted. There were at present sixty small coasting vestels owned by natives of New Zealand — a pioof of the industry with which they were icady to follow the pursuits of civilized life. The right lion, gentleman stated thut he had <*xpelicnced great alnrm in consequence of the language held by the noble Secretary of State for the Colonies, on a question which hid undoubtedly given rise to great irritotim and great jealousy in thnt country — he meanr the land claims. Up did not believe, however, that the appiehcnsions the right hon. gentleman had expressed were in reality justified by the facts of the case, lie believed his noble fiiend at the head of the Colonial office would be as reluctant as himself, in the first place, not stiictly to adhere to the terms of the treaty of Waitangi, and not to concede to the natives their claim to any land to which tiiey were entitled. At the same time he thought, for the sake of the native inhabitants themselves, no course would be more inexpedient than absolutely to affiunthat a pioprietary right existed on the part eirncr ol tiibcs or individual memhoi a of those tribes, to the whole of the surface of New Zealand. (Hear.) '1 he isl mds of New Zealand consisted of 53,000,000 of acres, while the population was not more than 100,0 0. It was not in New Zealand as in Norih America, where the inhabitants subsisted by means of the chase. There were no four footed animals except pigs and rat" in New Zealand, and the mhab.tanls never subsisted by hunting, as did the North Amciiean Indians. What then could be more preposterous and absurd than to suppose that these 100,000 persons could have any sort of claim over Buch an extent of country ? The hon. gentleman stated that he did not controvert the general and abstract view of the doctrines laid down by Earl Giey on the rights of the ab( riginal inhabitants, as contradistinguished from those of civilized society, but he intimated that there was something in Earl Grey's despatch nnd instructions that was inconsistent with the treaty of Wai angl. Now he did not think that such was the rate; nor did he think there was any jnateiiul difkience between Lord Grey and Governor Ciiey an to the way in winch the treaty of Waitangi should be tamed out, oi on the general question as to the way in nlnch the natives ghoul J be used. If he bad intended to de'end the course taken by Loid Grey he would h-ivc quoted just the very passage that the right hon. gentleman hud read, in which the abstract view of the question was stated. And surely it was important th»c Government should keep in view what was eternally and fundamentally true in such matters as these. But the right hon. gentleman did not sufficiently attend to the foice of some particular words in those instructions, or he would have seen that, so tar from jleartng the interpretation he put upon them, llicy had a very difFeient meaning. Jt appeared to him that the passage limited stiictly the proprietary lights belonging either to a tribe or any individual to those cases in which labour of some Bort or another had been expended upon the land. He thought theie could be no tight of property in the natives entitling them to set up a claim to land, unless they could ]>rove that they expended labour on that land. The j>.u>sage did not bear the construction put upon it by llie light hon. gentleman. Words were introduced ■which plainly showed that where the natives, from use and other grounds, possessed a fair and bona fide title, the Local Government was bound to accede to their < lainis. The instructions accompanying the New Zealand chatter, dec ared that no claim should he admitted unless it were established that cither by some act of the Executive Government, or the adjudication of some court of competent jurisdiction, the right had been acknowledged and ascertained, or " that the claimants, or their pidgenitors, or those from whom they derived Iheir title, had actually had the occupation ol the lands so clainaedi and had been accustomed to use and enjoy the same, either as places of abode, or for tillage, or for the growth of ci ops, or for the depasturing of cat le, or otherwise for the convenience and suitentation of life, by means of labour expended thereupon.'' He dissented (rom the construction of the right hon. gentleman, and did not think the words •' by means of labour expended theieupon" were to be read m the connection suggested by the right hon. gentleman. The treaty of Wailan^i was a document which the New Zealand Government would be bound to take cognizance"; and he did nil believe thnt they had excluded from any bona fide p )ssesbion of land any New Zealand tube or individual, even though there was not labour actually expended upon it. He (Mr. Labourhere) believed in the first instance that the treaty of "YVaitiingi ought to be strictly, scrupulously, and even lately interpreted, that eveiy bona fide claim which the aboriginal inhabitants could put forward under it ou^ht to be liberally conceded, in justice as well as in sound policy. Uut he did not think that under colour of the expies'ion they should be allowed to hold large tracts ot land which they could put to no use, thereby obstructing the progress of the co.onj. lie did not believe that on Ihi3 subject ihere was any real difference of opinion between Governor Grey and Earl Grey, lie believed that Governor Grey would carry out the instructions ; and by the discretion, good sense, and experience applied to the administration of the colony, he (Mr. Laboiicheic) entertuined sanguine hopes that this perplexing, harassing, and most dangerous question would be brought to a satisf.ictoty issue. A pas sage bad just been pointed out to him which bore on this subject, and which would be found at pa^e 84 of the papers printed in December. In commenting on the letter of the bishop, Earl Grey said— "If the bishop ha i consulted the institutions accompanying tin- charter, which were published with it, and which really contiin the ptactical directions to the local government, which my despatch was only intended to illubtiuto, be would Ihere have found the greatest attention pnid to the maintenance ot every thin^ which cm be called an existing native right to

land, though established in consequence of the prevalence of that mistaken theory which I have combated. The protector of the aborigines is there diicctcd to inform I lit; registrar lespecting all lands wifhin his district to which the natives, ' either as tribes or individuals,* claim either propiietary or possessaiy title; that all such claims shall be registered ; and that wherever it shull le shown, cither that such lands have been actually occupied by the natives, or that the ownership to such lands, although unoccupied, has been recognised by the executive or judicial authorities to be vested in the natives, such claim shull be finally and conclusively admitted.'' In a despatch from Governor Grey, recently received by Harl Grey, he found an ullusion made to tins subject :— " These complaints, and the request for the investigation of claims, wcic made in the districts in which the missionaries aic the piincipal laud claimants ; and your lordship will see that Captain Sotheby states, that some of the young men spoke in a most determined manner, and threatened to take the law into their own hands. Captain Sothcby't observations quite accord with all the information which has reached me fron other sources ; and I can only trust that my beinsr able shortly to conclude some definite and amicable ar« rangement with the land claimants in the north, nuy for ever set these existing; questions at rest." Governor Grey hid a confident expectation that he would be able to bring those mutters to a practical, final, and satisfactory conclusion. The right hon. gentleman spoke of the lull before the house as consisting of two parts, one enading the other suspending. He approved of the enacting pait of the bill; but, with regard to the suspending part, which applied to the constitution of New Zealand, and which empowered the Governor to introduce that constitution, aa he saw reason, either into the half, or the whole, or into portions of New Zi aland, the right lion, gentleman expressed a strong opinion that it would be better to repeal that constitution. He Laboucliere) did not think that an advisable course. What was the situation in which the house stood ai regarded this question ? That house had deliberately, and after discusiion, passed a bill by which they pave free representative institutions to the colony of New Zealand. The Governor of New Zealand expressed great apprehensions as to the effect of introducing those institutions at the present moment ; but, Parliament having thus deliberately and solemnly pronounced an opinion on th<? point, whether free institutions .should be extended to thoie islands or not, he (Mr. Laboucliere) deprecated the idea of the house taking any course at variance with that decision. Power was given to the Governor ot New Zealand, at any time within the next five years, to introduce those institutions. The whole question might ug.un be submitted to the consideration of Parliament : but his own expectation ai.d hope was, thai long before that peiiod had c apsed the Govtrnor, by communications with the natives, might prepare the way, and, seeing a proper opportunity, find himself able to introduce those institutions either at once into both divisions of New Zealand, or into such pans of the colony as might be judged advisable. This was a much more convenient course tlmn the repeal of a measure so deliberately taken. There was one question more to whirh he (Mr. Lubouchere ) adverted with pain ; but, since the right hon. gentleman had again renewed the discussion on that point, he felt that he could not pass it by. The que stion was that relating to the conduct of the Bishop of New Zealand. The right hon. gentleman asked if any additional information had been received by the Government ai to the conduct of tin; bishop, and if they knew whether he had taken means to promulgate his opinions to the natives ? Mr. Gladstone.— Whether the protest was addressed to the natives or to the Government? Mr. Laboucliere.— No information has been rccei7cd by the Colonial office on the subject since he last addressed the house, liut ihe bishop in sending this p-o-test to the Government at home, did announce his intention to express his dissatisfaction to the natives of New Zealand as to the course adopted by the Government. He said lie would do his utmost to acquaint thorn with their rights as British subjects, and he intimated his intention to assist them in maintaining those rights. Expressing the most sincere respect far the character and general conduct of the Bishop of New Zealand since his appointment to his piesent see, ho (Mr. Laboucliere) must adheie to the opinion that this was a most imprudent course on the pare of the bishop, and the Secretary of the Colonies, on hearing that it was the intention of the bishop to agitate this (|iic->tum among the natives, was bound expressly to state his opinion to the bishop. Mr. Gladstone. — He stated that the bishop addressed his protest to the natives. Mr. Laboucliere. — An intention of that kind having been foimally and officially communicated tlnough th Governor of the colony to the bccictary of State lor Ihe Colonial Department, the Sceictaty 0/ State would not have done his duty had he not told the bishop that such a course was very wiong. He (Mr. Labouchere) hoped ' that the light hon. gentleman would be satisfied that there was no intention on the part of the Colonial-office to do anything in lcgaid to waste lands which was inconsistent with the rights guaranteed to the natives un der the treaty of Waitaugi, with theii tiue inleiests or with the most libeial and fair dealing. The house would do well tointiust Governor Grey, whose conduct showed how much confidence might be placed in his prudence and discretion, as well as firmness, with those ample disci etionary powers which it was proposed upon him. Placed as they were at a gieat distance fiom the community for which they had been called to legislate, it was better to confer such discietionary poweis upon the Governor or the colony than to fix a precise peiiod when the constitution should be bi ought into piny — His own persuasion was, that if ihe house, relying upon the puulence, circumspection, and vigilance of Governor Giey, gave him the necessaiy poweis, there was the best prospect of seeing free institutions introduced into New Zealand, to be enjoyed both by the lintisli settlcis and the aboriginal inhabitants ; and they might eheiish the hope that this import mt dependency of the British Ciown would yet Jlouiibh as a united, happy, and lice coiiuniiuity.

Sir E. Buxton observed, that in presenting a petition on a foimcr occasion lie had been led to ask whether tho manner in which the Bishop of New Zealand had acted was not a matter on which they were then unable to decide. Ho found, however, some incidental ovidoncc that GovcinorGicj ha 1 not lost confidence in the bishop, the Go\cinoi having applied to the bishop in lcfercncc to the land giants for the missionaiies of the Chinch of England, and pi oposilions had been made which they had accepted. The views of the bishops as to the native claims weie by no means singular. Letters had been leccived fiom the inissionaiies connected with the Wesleyan body, speaking in as strong language as could be used of the new charter ; but the expressions wcic so stiong (hat the seerctaiy of the Wesleyan body bad it-quested him (Sir E. Buxton) not to read the letteis to the house. Other gentlemen of the highest consideration and of all classes concurred in putting a similai constiuotion on the charter. The right lion, gentleman had cxpicssed the wise determination of Her Majesty's Government that the treaty of Waitangi should be upheld iaiily, and interpreted liberally, lie trusted it would be carried out in the spirit in which it had been proposed by the Secretary ot State on the one hand, and by the natives on the other. In a despatch dated August 14, 1839, from Lord Normanby, then Secictaiy for the Colonies, his Loidship, addiesing Governor Hobson, said,—" It will be your duty to obtain, by fair and equal contracts with the natives, the cession to the Crown of such waste lands as may be piogicssively rcquiicd for the occupation of settl is resoi ting to New Zealand." " Waste lands !"— not cultivated or occupied lands. Such weie the views of Lord Norman by in 1840. In a de patch dated Dec. 9,1810, the opinion of Governor Hobson was stated, that — " the ttcaty must be legarded .is the fundamental law of the counliy, and must be so interpreted as to harmonize with the other laws of New Zealand i elating to like suijccts. ' The fact, theiefoic, appeared that Loid Normanby expected that the Government should acquire no tcuitoiy i\A claiming the sovereignty of New Zcalandt Sir R. L'ccl, speaking in 1845 said, — "There is no claim here to possession of territory in consequence of "oveieignty." They hud the sovereignty minus the land ; they gave up the land when they claimed the right of sovereignty. Ho trusted, then, that in dealing with the natives the Government would deal with them according to.the meaning which had always been attached to the treaty of Waitangi. Lord Stanley in pioposing a land-tax of 2d per acre, stated that ie w.is intended to apply to all lands ; but the Government was not ikcly to Ui< lands which belonged to itself, or to induce a ioitcituic of that which was al icady theiis. Such was the constiuction put upon the tieaty by the natives at the piosenl time. Fiom the pupeis just piinted, it appeared that lliegieatcsl aluim hid been created among the people, lest the lands should be taken fiom them, and, undeniably, their opinion was that there was a title on their part to the possession of all the land in the northern isl md. It was noioiious to those acquainted with thecountiy that the New Zealnnders do put a value on iheir land ; and, though they might use it only for " pig-iuns," they weie icady to enter into war rather than give up what they considered their own. He trusted the Government would act hilly on those excellent principles which the light hon. gentleman had enunciated, and accoiding to the interpretation of the tieaty now brought under their notice. He hoped in spite ofiho influence of the New Zealand Company, that the Government would act on those piinciples. If they only did so, they would find that peace and security would be main- . tamed in New Zealand. Mr. Aglionby was induced to rise partly by the allusion made by the hon. baionct in concluding his speech. ITe (Mr. Aglionby) belonged to the New Zetland Company, of which the hon. baronet expressed his iears. Fiom the moment he had become connected with it he had seen nothing in its transactions except what had given him pleasuu, and what he should have expected on the pint ol an association composed of men us distinguished for station, education, and good feeling as any in the country. He craved the hon. baronet's close sciutiny into all its proceedings. The hon. baronet would find that his fears had been excited by what had fallen from intcicstcd or tmbulcnt persons, who had said many things of the company contrary to fact. All the information which could be supplied on the subject was ,it the disposal of the hon. baronet.— The company wanted nothing but publicity. The hon baionct and he differed in their views of the treaty of Waitangi. The hon. baronet considered the whole lands, without distinction, in the island of New Zeahnd, to be the property of the natives, — their property a»ainst .ill the world — for no other reason it seemed than that they happened to reside there or had eaten somebody who had lived in the same place. The expression 14 beneficial enjoyment" aHbidcda fair and liberal construction of the condition of which natives were to, be confirmed in the posscssiouof lands. There were, for example, portions of land connected with the sea and inland riveis which, as a people of fishers, the New Zealaiuleis did beneficially enjoy ; and he did not belicvo that they would be deprived of the beneficial enjoyment which they had in any such instances He had called attention to the constiuction of the treaty of Waitangi the veiy year in which it was signed. The treaty spoke of the lands which the natives " collectively and individually possess." What was the meaning of the woid " possess," say in refeiencc to the middle island, which wus as luige as England, but which had not more than 1200 inhabitants ? Accoidmg to the hon. baionel, those 1200 natives possessed the whole island; ihut op nion indeed, was advocated in the colony itself. — : But could the tieaty be understood to confer upon those " ] 200 persons in vutuc of the woid "possess" the pi o- | peityjof that island to the total exclusion of the disco^eteis 1 Such an idea was not only contraiy to the pi noiplcs of political economy but to the i rinciples of leligion. "W hat was the condition of those islands, which had led to then colonisation by this countiy? The fact was, that fiom the time of Captain Cook's dis covery the natives weie decreasing in numbeis, owing to war among themselves, which could not bo contests for lointoiy, because they did not want it, but which were canied on lor the gialiliration of cruel and savage pioppnsitics. Tiibes were destinycd and eaten l>y then conqui'iois. It was a mutter of luunnnily to colonist that countiy loi the advancement ul civilisation ami

Chi istianity. The conquerors left the land unoccupied Was it to bo said that, under such circumstances, the people of this country should bo prevented from apply ng their enterprise and capital to those islands, dii" cue being taken of the interests of the natives ? JMiu h has boon (lone to extend education and i elision among them, and they were now becoming gradually nbsoibcl in a moio civilised population. With lefcrcncc tv the construction ot the treaty ol Waitangi, it was impoilant to look at the language used by Loid Jolin Ku&stll m Novcmbei 1810, — the ticaty having been made in the beginning of that year In an official document of th ir dale (which the hon. member quoted) the noble lord used the expression, "giants ol waste land to us bolonging." The noble loid evidently did not undcislaiul the treaty as recognising tlu> whole land a-,thppio|>_it\ <ii the natives, because lie i eferred to large poi tions lying vvilliin (he island as belonging to Uncrown. Ho begged leave, also, to lemind the house of n Tow lemaiks which ho had made m a former discussion respecting the distinction between the southern settlement and the not titem settlement of New Zealand. Those icinaik? not having been leporlerl at the time, he had been found fault with lor not having alluded to the distinction,— which however, he had done— and ho now begged leave to loadGovoinm Grey's own words on that subject. Governoi Grey in his despatch of Cvlobei 7, 18 IG, sa)S • — " lam not at piesent aware of any circumstance which need pi event tho immediate intioduction of lepiesentative institutions 111(0 that colony, which would compiisc the settle ments in Cook's Straitb and the Middle Iblan-i. All qucstionsof a vexatious n ilure between tlio government and the seiileis in that part of tiu, colony have now been finally bet at lest ; and, with a considerable acquaintance with Biilisit seltlemonts, I have no hesitation in recording it as my opinion, that thero never was a bo<i> of. 6ettleis to whom tho power of local self government could bo more wisely and judiciously ontrusted than (he inhabitants of the settlement* t<> which I atn alluding." Mr. Cardwell said ho would not attempt to accept the challenge of the hon. gentleman to enter into the long vexed question of the copBti notion of the treaty of Wailangi, having on .< foimer occasion, had the honour to si-ite fu'. views on that subject at gieat length. Uv wished just tosaj.that no subsequent leHectn*:' ttndcd to satisfy him that the legal constiurtion which had been adopted by no uly one hall of tho committee of 1815, — although theie had been a baie majority against them— was in any respect enoueuiis} neither had the occui loneot, which had since taken place in the colon), helped to convince him that the piactiral uollbeing of tho colony had b>oii advanced by tho constiuction of the tieab, which had uuforiU' nately, been put upon it by the majority of thai committee. But having said that, ho did not think it light in him again to occupy the time of the house in a long legal argument, to which justice only could be done w hen fhe house was, piepared to come tlu-ie for the express puipose ol sitting upon the case judicially. At piesent it arose in apmely collateral shape, his hun, friend (Mr. Gladstone), had only inlet rnpted Urn Speaker leaving the chair, for the puipose of obtaining satisfaction on two paiticular points j the one being a purely personal question, m which it was of importance to see justice done to a most respectable individual, the other bein^ a great public question affecting the destiny of (he island of New Zealand. With respect to the fit st question, he (Mr. Cardwell) legrelted that the answer of (he right hon gentleman the l'ieaident of the Board of Trade, was to his mind, perfectly unsatisfactory. The question wa6» whether the right hon. gentleman did or dul not charge the Bishop of New Zealand with having been guilty of agitating the island, ami endeavouring to excito the minds of the natives against the existing government. The right hon. gentleman had read a passage from the Bishop's letter, in which he stated that he was " tesolved to use all legal and constitutional measures befitting his station, to mloim tlio nativeiTof New Zealand of then lights and privileges as B.iitish subjects, and to assist them in asserting and maintaining them ;" but there he; stopped short, lie, (Mr. Cardwell), begged try read the voids which immediately followed, which were thesp, il whether by petition to the Imperial Parliament, or other loyal and peaceable methods, but (hat in so doing I shall not foiget the lespect « hich 1 owe to your Excellency, nor do anything which can be eonsideted likely to add to (he difficulties of tho colon)." (Hear, hear). 1 hat was the whole question. The bishop — whether tightly or uionyly hu would not then enquire, though he might aiguu the point 6ome oilier day, — felt it to l»e Ins duly as the head of the whole missionaiy bud), — for he believed that even those im-sionaiies who were not umlei episcopal supeuulendnice, ami wete not irn-mbeis of the Chinch of England, acted with gi cat haimom in co-opoialiny with him on this subject, — the Bishop felt it lv be hia duty to lepres-iiitllie case to government. H lit: had done so as an agitator among the natives, lie (Mr Cardwell) would have been among the hist to vindicate him. On this point the light hon. gentleman said that the government had no iniormation ft oin the colony on tho subjort. Ho begged to say that they had veiy gooU 1 e/jilive information. The letter of the Bishop was dated Ist July last, and we had the fullest mi.-iuialiou on the state of the colony on this pnrJicn' i: stihjeclUonn to the Isl Octobei laol, thic" 'uyntl's

a tei wards, and not one word had been received from the Governor of the c»lony respecting the following up °f tllC P iotwt of tlle Bishop. He considered this to be the most conclusive testimony that the Bishop ha 4 not been guilty of the charge imputed to him. The other question which his right lion, friend (MV. Gladstone) had referred to, was in wbiu souse, and in what way the government to carry out the treaty of Wai langi ? Were they going to observe that treaty in the sense put' upon it at the time by those vho made it, or weietbey going to break it, or explain it away, 01 get lid ot it by a side wind? He might obseive in passing, that the right hon. gentleman had included the tiealy of Waitangi a* one of the ails of the executive Government of New Zealand, whereas that treaty was made prior to the existence of an executive government theie. In fact, the Executive Government tested upon the provisions of the TreHty itself. But he was happy to say that the answer of the light hon. gentleman, with respect to the const motion of this treaty, was satisfactory in the main. He (Mr. Cardwell) had understood him as stating that, whatever might have been the instruction of Lord Grey in ] 846,— whether they weie consistent with the recognised interpi elation of the treaty or not— the government entirely approved of the conduct of Captain Gie\, in refeienre to that treaty, and intended to act upon the principle he had laid down, and that an institution to thai effect would go out as a message of peace to the people of New Zealand. The anxiety therefoie, which according to recent despatches, seemed to be felt on this point in the inland, might be taken to be set at rest. Avoiding to Captain Sothelty's report, there had been a great deal of e< citement on the pan of Kawiti, and many of the natives, owing to * report that the government intended to take possession of all uncultivated lands, but that Waka had eased Kawiti's mind by telling him there was no truth in such a repnit, w hich Captain Sotheby most fully corroborated. In the piewtice of Tomati Waka, through the inteipreter, Captain Sotheby gave Tiipe (another chief,) to understand, upon the authoiitjof his Excellency the Governor, that such was not the intention or even the wish, if piacticable, of the government ; and that no land Mould be taken excepting wiih the will and consent of the chiefs, and then granting them a pension, but which kind of remuneration the natives did not seem to understand. Tupe said, if land \tas required, it must be paid for, but several tunes expressed his wish to live peaceably. Now, this was the point upon which the question of peace 01 war with the natives would tuin, and all he (Mr. Caidwell) wanted to know v as, whether the government were going to act in this spirit—and he understood emphatically, that they were. (Hear, hear.) If they were, then we should have peace in New Zealand, and then those impiovements to which the right hon. i gentleman (Mr. Labouehere) referred to in the peroration of his speech, might he verily believed, be fairly anticipated. The hon. gentleman who had spoken last (Mr. Aglionby,) had lefened to the former conduct of the natives,— reviving some of the old stories which they used to hear (in founer times about their titles to their land being derived from taiiug its former possessor. The papers lately received from' New Zealand gave some evidence respeeiing the state of the natives. It appeared that they had been able to maintain themselves in making a gallant stand against the Queen's troops, and when they liad nnfoi innately Killed some of our troops, what did they do? It was stated that the body of Jpiivate'Weller of the sSth rpgt., was found and carried away by the enemy, who read prayers over, and bniied him at Owaiawai without degtading mutilation, (heui, he<ii.) With respect 1o the particular bill before the hou»e, he was peifectly satisfied that it was necessary to do something in the matter; and as the question was, whether the Speaker should then leave the chair, he did not think it right to occupy more ol the time of the house, or ofler any opposition to its going into committee. The hail of Lincoln objected to raising the discussion upon which lie wished the house to enter in committee. If it was the wish of the house to go into committee he would not oppose it ; but he thought it fair to give notice that, if they did so, he intended to raise the discussion to which he ieferred upon the bringing np of the report, and thnt he leserved to himself the tight to move any amendments on the report which he should find to be necessaiy. Mr. S. Scott joined with the noble lord in expressing a wish that the Government would postpone g.-ing into committee upon this very important subject. If they were determined to persevere in colonising New Zealand, let them do it on the principles of equity and justice. What had been the consequences of their legislation already ? One act of Parliament had beeu sent out, and no sooner had it arrived than the Gover nor was obliged to enti eat the Colonial-office to pause before they enforced a measure which, he felt sore, would create difficulties and disturbance. Would it not be better, instead of attempting to go into committee now upon a subject of sucu great imp rtance, to postpone the consideration ot it uut 1 the house had had au opportunity of judging of the provisions of the bill, and of deciding whether the colony was in a fit state to receive such a measure? Mr. Adderly complained that the discussion of a matter »>f so much importance as the giving or suspending a constitution to New Zealand had been mixed up with subjects wholly foieign to it,snch as the conduct ■if the bishop and the treaty of Waitangi ; and expressed the liope that the question would be raised iv a manner more fitting to its importance. Mr. Ansfey observed that it was too late for lion, members representing the New Zealand Company t<i affect to doubt the existence ot the native laws and usages of the colony, for they had themselves given to them an explicit recognition. The only title of the company to their lauds whs founded on the assumption that there was a law of real property among the natives, under which they had the power of transmitting the land. He had not made up his mind entirely to vote against the bill, but he could not consent to proceed with the committee unless the Government gave a distinct promise that this question of the occupa ion o' property should be determined with a regard not ouly to the native laws and customs of New Zealand, but to the body of English law. The hon. member concluded by moving that the house do go into committee on this day week. No hon member appearing as seconder, the motion fell to the ground, Ihe Speaker then left the chair, and the house resolved itself into committee ou the bill. On clause 1 being proposed, Mr. Gladstone inf mated, as we understood, that if he had any amendment to propose relative to the duration of live years, he would t,ive due notice of propo* sing it on the report.

Mr. Huine objected to the term of five years, as too long. l\Jr. Lnhonchere thought that the term was not too long, considering the distance of the colony fioin the mother country. All that the hill did was to fix five years as the maximum period during which the constitution might he suspended; and the Governor, itshoutil be rcmembeied, had discretionary power to confer the constitution, or partially confer it, before that period, should good grounds appear for so doing. Mr. Aclionby observed, that the original intention of the Government had been to grant to the southern porton of New Zealand a constitution immediately, and to the northern portion the same boon after the lapse of two years. The change in this view had been caused by the s tong representations of Governor Grey ; but he (Mr. Aglionby) did not think that the recommendation of that ofheer would at all warrant the suspen sion of the constitution with regard to the south for so long a period as five years- There we re no complaints whatever in respect to the conduct ot the inhabitants of this part of the colony ; they were admitted to be peaceable and orderly, and it was not maintained that they were at all unfit for the privileges with which it had been proposed to entrust them. (Hear, hear.) He ap prchended that, notwithstanding this bill, there would •till be a discretionary^ower with the Governor to curtail the period of five years, so far as concerned the southern settlements, if he saw no danger in such a course; and it would further be in his power, if he (Mr. Aylionby) understood the ineasmc aright, to make tuch alterations and modifications in the original charter as he might think necessary. There could be no question that Governor Grey would exercise such a power with great discretion, and he begged to ask the right hon- gentleman if that powei should not rest with the Governor ? Mr. Labouchere referred the lion, gent'eman to the fourth clause, wherein it was statedlthat the Governor of New Zealand would have the power, if he should think fit, to introduce a constitution to one while he withheld it from another portion of the colony. It had been thought advisable to intrust the Governor with d'lcretioii, and it was a point on which it would be btfcer to leave everything to his own judgment. It might be that the .ippearauce of partiality would cause great excitement and be productive ot very seiious consequeuces to the peace of the co ony ; hut if, without danger, a const.tution could be granted to the south within the period of fiie years, theie would be no obvtacle whatever placed in tne way of the Governor making the concession- With regai dto the other point adverted to by the hon. gentleman, the Governor would not have the power to alter the chai ter, but would be able, by an ordinance of the Legislative Council, to make those amen meats which might be necessary to the good governmeet of the colony. The Earl of Lincoln thought, as the r'.ght hon. gentleman had insisitd on going into thii piecemeal discussion, that he should at least not have given an" swers which were not borne out by the bill itself, He sincerely regretted, on every ground, that there was no representative of the Colouial-oihce in that house. The right lion- gentleman had taken his information from the Attorney General ; but was he quite sure the answer he had just given was accurate? Was it a fact that under the fourth clause the Governor of New .Zealand would have power to grant to the south provinces that constitution which it was the object ot the first clause to suspend? He (Lord Lincoln) apprehended there was no such power whatever ; untie the fourth cla«se the Governor would be c powered to grant a Legislative Council ; but th<it was i>y no means the sort of constitution they weie about to suspend. The right hon. gentleman, theiefore, was misiepresenting his own bill- If this hill passed, the Queen iv Council only would have power to renew the constitution Mr. C. Bullcr considered that the reply of his right hon friend to the question put by the hon. member for Cockcrmouth was strictly correct. Undoubtedly the | discretional y power of renewing the constitution was lelt to the Governor ; that is. to say, that he would be able to do so by and through a Leuislatne Council t nominated by the Crown. Under the fourth clause it would be in the power of the Governor at any time, being so advised, or Uking it on his own responsibility, or instructed by the Colonial secretary, by and with the advice of the Legislative Council, to constitute, by ordinance, a provisional Legislative Council* "to be nominated, or elected. 1 ' Su| posing, thcietore, at the end of two or three years, the Governor tho ght that the southern or the northern provinces were in a fit state to receive free reprcsentati>e institutions, under this clause, as lie (Mr- Buller) took it, he wou d have I ower to propose an ordinance to this coun-il, constituting provincial legislative councils to be nominated by him, or to be elected by the people or by the municipalities. The Earl of Lincoln— The rnhthon. gentleman (Mr Buller) had answered the question of the right hon. member for Cockermouth (Mr. Aglionby) iv a very lawyer like way, by evading the main point altogether. He (Lord Lincoln) denied again that by the fourth clause, the Governor would, as stated, have the power of renewing the constitution. The first clause suspended the cousti.ution, as far as it related to separate legislative assemblies, for the period of five ye.irs ; and, by the second, third, and fourth clauses, they p ofessed to piovide a suostitute, and a most sorry substitute it was- The Government had insisted upon biingingon this discussion, and the house had a right to expect an accurate explanation of the bill. The explanation given by the right hon. gentleman was most inacculate. The Attorney-General could not agree with the noble lord. His right hon. friend (Mr. Labouchere) had re ferred to him, but he had not spoken merely on the simple construction of the clause ; he had been aware of the intention of the wording, and he believed his ri(?ht hon. friend had stated it accurately. The most unlimited confidence wai placed in Governor Grey, -and the Colonial office proposed to give to the Governor of the colony power, at his discretion, to increase the Legislative Council which existed before the Eassingof the former act, which was revived by this ill. The constitution could not be revived to the whole of New Zealand under five years, but it could be revived to the southern provinces at any time at the discretion of the Governor within that period. After some further conversation, the house resumed, and the Chairman repoited progress, and obtained jcare to sit again.