LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Thursday, July 29th, 1847. (Continued from our last.)

New Zealander, Volume 3, Issue 123, 4 August 1847, Page 2

LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. Thursday, July 29th, 1847. (Continued from our last.)

Present— His, Excellency the Go.vernor, and all the Members, except, Mr. Domett. The minutes of the. last. meeting were- read and, confirmed.

Sale of Spirits Bill. The AUorn.ey-General said* thai, though charged with the conduct of this Bill, he. regretted that the duty of moving -it« second read* ing bad not been undertaken Uy, some honourable j member entertaining; stronger views of the I practicability ,o,f,legislating,oii ,the, subject. The reason which had prevented the, Government from legislating on this subject at an earlier period, was the disinclination they entertained to make any diftiuctiqn. in legislating between the two races of Her Majesty's subjects; to abi stain in fact, from passing any', enactment tending to make. any invidious, distinction be-r tween them. The difficulty of legislating efficiently on such a subject, had also had its weight, with the Government, in preventing them from earlier making the attempt, With) the view or meeting the first objection, namely,, that, of making an ; exception ,at law. exclusively for the natives without their own concurrence* he would move, when the, Bill w ( as in Com-, miltee, thaj io»tead of the clause bringing the Bill into operatiou throughout the colony on a fixed day, a clause to the effect that it fcbould come into operatiou in »uch districts, only as the Governor- might appoint, being fust thereunto, •moved by^tbe, principal native inhabitants of such: district. By this means, he, the Attorney, Ge-, -neral thought,- that the influence of the natives might be gradually btought indirectly into ope-) ration on subjects .concerning their own welfare,; It would probably be a considerable time before, under the provisions of the New Charter, the, natives wouid acquire any considerable, de-, gree of political. pow,cr, but it required no special^ law to give them some previous training, with a view to beneficial exercise of such privileges. For instance, there appeared to him, (the Attor-ney-General), no reason whatever, why, when the Legislature might vote any particular sum, for the general benefit of the native race, the Governor. might nqt call together the principal, Chiefs, ,of the district, to explain, to them his own views, as to the most advantageous, means, of np- ( plying such monies, and endeavour by explanation and argument to secure their intelligent, and willing co operation in carrying those views

into effect. And v so with the present measure j if it shquldi, on its provisions being explained to them, oppjp.se itself to the natives of any particular district* then, under the authority of the clause he (the Attorney-General) proposed to add to. the Bill-, the Governor would have the power of bringing it into operation in such district. In tliii manner, one of the difficulties it appeared, to him might be overcome. The other difficulty was, however after a|l, perhaps, the greater. Wag it possible, by any legislative enactment, to prevent intemperance? But whatever might be the difficulties of legislating on the subject, hp should give his hearty concurrence in aiding, tha Council to frame the measure in such a manner as would most certainly secure the object* which they must all entertain — the preservation of the native race from the baneful. effects of intemperance. Mr. Donnelly would have been pleased that the ad-, vocacy of< the real principle of this very important measure had. been committed to, the learned Attorney General, if that learned'gentlemaV had taken the same view of the means of carrying r |t o,i\t, that he hadjiaken, himself* He believed- the principle of the bijl to be, t the prevention of the. depravation of the native rice, by the use of intoxicating liquors. He was aware of the difficulty of legislating upon such a subject, and quite convinced that it would be dangerous to attempt legislation upon such a subject for civilized men, long accustomed to indulge themselves in the use ofintdxicatmg draughts, and generally ablet to restrain themselves in such indulgence. In the case of the aboriginal inhabitants of this colony, however, the , subject presented itself in a very different way. They were of all races upon the earth, probably most averse by nature to the use of intoxicating liquors, their instinctive disgust to such liquors was too well known to be dwelt upon. Hitherto, only a very small portion of the whole^ native population had been partially depraved in this way, thg,general mass was at this moment wholly uncontt&ninatcd. It was therefore not only practicable to legislate upon the subject before the Council, but the imperative duty of the Council to do so without delay. But he thought that the means of accomplishing this object, which are adopted in the bill, are absurd, incapable of being carried' out, and directly calculated to defeat the object at which they aim,— they are absurd, because while they prohibit altogether the use of spirituous liquors, and therefore strike at- the root of one species of intoxication, they permit the use of fermented liquor to any amount not producing intoxication. Without the introduction of hair-splitting, or verbal quibbling, into a subject of such moment, without attempting to measure things incapable of measurement, or to apply the rule and live to things which can not be placed in juxta-position with them, it was perfectly certain, that while intoxication by the use of spirituous liquor was prohibited by the bill) an habitual state of body and mind, arising out of the use of fermented liquors, fully as mischievous and fatal in its effects, though perhaps not always so inconvenient ,to the public at large, was .openly permitted* That species of intoxication which produces violence and turbulence was prohibited, while that which produces a dull and mopish suspension of th.c, mental faculties was tolerated; that specie's of intoxication, w,hich resembles insanity was prohibited, while that- which resembles stolid idiocy was. connived at. The means proposed, in the bill, for carrying out? the object aimed at, could not he practised. For, no person charged before a bench of Magistrates, with being instrumental in producing the intoxication of a native, by^the sale of fermented liquor to him, could be justly convicted. Every such person could successfully plead in his defence, that he cculd not tell the precise quantity of any particular kind of fermented liquor which would, produce the intoxication of any particular native, that unless be was furnished with the capacity of every particular native for every, particular species of fermented [iquor, it would be impossible for him to conform his conduct, to the law, and that he ought not therefore to.be punished for an offence which he had no means of avoiding with any even tolerable certainty. Further, the proposed means were directly calculated to defeat the object at which they aimed.. For, habitual indulgence in the use of fermented liquor willy even if we suppose it innocent, inevitably profluce a., craning desire after the more charming and lively delirium produced by the; use of spirituous liquor, and a high degree of irritation and discontent at the prohibition of this more exciting indulgence. There was another mode of viewing the subject, which would place the defects of the bill in a prominent form before the Council. He, (Mr. Donnelly), believed, that it was never proved. either from reason. or, experience, that even the temperate use of intoxicating liquors, was necessary or useful to the body or mind,— on the con« trary, he believed, that the opposite position-had been long supported, with triumphant success, and it was by no means visionary to, suppose,. that the, truth pf this latter position would at no very distant date bo impressed by the industry and the labours of Total Abstinence Societies, upon the minds of the great mass of civilized men. In these days, civilized States might, legislate .upon the subject, nqw, before the Council, and they might with great propriety employ the means proposed in the bill for accomplishing their object; the transition from the U3o of spirituous to the. use of fermented' liquors, from worse to bad, or from bad to better, would then be proper, and perfectly intelligible. Bjut in the case of a race, th« great mass of which was at this moment unaccustomed to indulgence in the use of either species of liquor; the only plan for preventing their depravation by tht use of intoxicating liquors, was plainly a total prohibition of the use of them. Would not any man of common sense, ( who tead, this Bill, aud was acquainted with the people who were to be affected by it, at onpa exclaim, that if the] Government wished to make th» natives adepts in drunkenness they had • adopted tlie proper means of doing so, by permitting in the first instance— and by way of initiation— indulgence in the use of fermented liquor? The honourable member concluded by observing, that he thought the Bill before the Council a subject of vital importance to the native race, npt merely by i(self r but because it was obvious that the success of all other measures for theimprovee ment of the .race would depend very much upon the nature of their legislation upon the subject nowbefor • them. Mr. Brown said that the council, he was sure, would agree that - the prohibition intended by the, bill should be, made as .eflecliv© as possible for the accomplishment of the end in view. He could see no belter way of carrying out the intentions of the bill than by an entire prohibition — snbjeot to modifications^ which mighibe left in the hands of the Government to be exercised by them a£, discretion. The Colonial Secretary .said that he thought the measure was one that should npt puss in its present shape. He did not see how it was practicable to enforce such restrictions, and he. did hot think it was politic to enact them. The natives, he believed, would be more-apt to betempted to partake of that which was forbidden, than if they had unrestricted access to it. He

was of opinion that the evil should be met by moral force and example, instead of by legal restrictions. If it was nec.e.ssar,y to prohibit the Natives from partaking of" these liquors, it was surely also necessity to prohibit Europeans. He hoped, however, that) the introduction of a proper system of education amongst the natives would be the means of so enlightening them, as to save them from the consequences of indulging in intoxicating liquors; and: that, m the mean lime, the bench of magistrates should take care that publicans who were in the habit of sailing to the natives, should". be dfepri.v.ed of their licence*. The Governor said that when he laid- the bill upon the table the other day, he had stated, that he felt there were several difficulties sut rounding the measure, that he would be glad if the council 1 could assist htm to remove. He could not help now observing that there, in that council, were assembled a number of English gentlemen, legislating for a race of men, who themselves were possessed of a degree of intelligence that he had seldom seen excelled, and they, at the present at>,lea*t, had no voice in constructing regulations which so materially concerned their own interests. The Government had already taken steps, in granting bush licenses, to prevent, the 6ale of epirits^to natives, beyond the limits, of the town, by making the holding of the license conditional upon the refusal to sell ;— but in the towns, Government could not interfere without a law, enabling them to prohibit li censed publicans from seHing to the native peo* pie. He thought that for our own piotection the absolute prohibition, within the towns, should be made at once. There might be a preamble affixed to the bill, which would point' out that the natives were not to be made amenable to distinctive laws, other than those which were intended for their own advantage j and the word " give/ which occurred in the bill, might be erased— for he thought that cases might occur where it would be harmless to present native chiefs with a glass of wine. Such cases had occurred $ under his own observation' on board Her Majesty's ships, when it was found necessary to give the native chiefs a little indulgence of this kind, which was always taken, and indeed looked for, as a mark of courtesy. In such cases, he thought, they could hardly interfere—but he would make an absolute prohibition as regards the sale to the natives by persons licensed to retail these liquors } and, also, prevent others from giving such drinks in exchange 1 for labor* Mr. Donnelly thought that the word " give," winch His Excellency wished to expunge, was, the most important word -in the bill, and if that i word was left out, then all the other provisions would most certainly prove ineffectual. A native desiring these liquors might easily procure them by stratagem— it would be easy to give the money to a white friend who, fiom courtesy or civility, could readily purchase from the publican, and supply the native, without any risk of incurring any penalty under this bilk He thought •it better to leave tt.e word as it stood, and there would be little danger of the Governor, or such persons as him, being brought before the bench for performing such marks of courtesy as' His Excellency had referred to. The Governor thought that persons acting for Jibe natives, in the manner referred to by Mr. Donnelly, would be punishable j but if the word « give" were allowed to remain in the bill, he for one, would not rumthe risk of breaking ithe should rather be the first to give the example of obeying the law to the full extent of its meaning. After several suggestions from the various members, the committee was adjourned to Saturday. '

Gunpowder. Bill. The Colonial Secretary rose to move the second reading of the Gunpowder Bill, and said that iv purport-was to prohibit persons within the Hauls of towns, from keeping on hand, large quantities of gunpowder so as to endanger the safety of surrounding property. The council went into commit tee on the bill,i and after deliberating on its several clauses, further consideration was postponed to Saturday. The Governor laid on the- table, a Bill to authorize the Government to establish a Paper Currency, The- council adjourned to Saturday, the 31st July*.