House of Commons. JULY 21ST, 1845. WEDNESDAY-JULY 23. HOUSE OF COMMONS.-AUGUST 8, 1845.

New Zealander, Volume 1, Issue 32, 10 January 1846, Page 3

House of Commons.

JULY 21ST, 1845.

WEDNESDAY-JULY 23.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-AUGUST 8, 1845.

NEW ZEALAND. On the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that the house resolve itself into a committee of supMr. C. Buller brought forward his motion that— "The house regarded with regret aod apprehension the state of affahs in New Zealand, and that those feelings were greatly aggravated by the want of any sufficient evidence of a change in the policy which had led to such disastrous results." He alluded to the petition which he had presented upon this subject on the 21st of June last, and said that his object in addressing the house was to ca)l its attention to the allegations of that petition, and to the events which had since been occurring in this country relative to the future destinies of New Zea land. The daily newspapers had placed the house in full knowledge of the melancholy events which had recently taken place in that colony ; and they had caused much regret for its past, and still greater apprehension for its future, condition. It was impossible for hon. members to disguise from themselves that a formidable insurrection had broken out among the natives, for the purpose of getting rid of her Majesty's Government in New Zealand. That insurrection had been successful. The settlers had not been taken by surprise. Due notice of the attack to be made upon them had been given. The local government had taken every precaution to meet it, and yet all its disposable force had been routed. The mischief would uot end here. The Chief, Heke had absolutely given notice that his next attack would be upon the seat of government at Auckland. The friendly tribes residing around Auckland had combined for its defence, but Captain Fitzmy was afraid even of their assistance ; for he felt that if he succeeded with their help, they would to a certain degree become his masters. Such was the state of things in the government settlement next to be attacked. He attributed all these circumstances to the policy of the Government. Lord Stanley attributed them to the engagements made by the Government with the settlers on the oue hand, and to the treaty of Waitangi, for the protection of the natives, on the other. A regular war had been brought on between the two races. All these dreadful results might have been avoided by great firmness on the part of jtlie Government. Bui there was one circumstance which for, a time had given him some hopes, and that was the promises of Sir R. Peel, given during a late debate,, that a better policy should be forthwith adopted. He ■ believed at the time that Sir R. Peel was sincere, and called upon the house to consider what had been the' I effect of them. He knew that there were gentlemen' i on 'he Ministerial benches who would have.voted with | him ou the last debate if those iproiu'^e^had not been given. A good Government was the only security for the safety ot the interests .dt the N civ Zealand Company, and of those of .the colonists; <ad on that subject nothing could be more satisfactory than the recent language of hir.R. iPeel. He said that " representative government was suited for the condition of New Zealand;'' that " the best plan for {governing it would be to establish municipal governments, with extensive powers of local taxation ;'' and that " the germ of representative government must be municipal it stitutious, widening their exteu' by degrees." Something ol that kind the colony had a right to expect; but what hud it got from Lord Stanley ? A declaration that si representative government was

unfit for it, and an invitation for them to establish minicipal corporations, giving them the power to make bye-laws, but leaving the power of legislation vested in the Council as at present constitituted. He then proceeded to another promise given by Sir R. Peel, with regard to the settlement of tEe titles of land. " The Company," he said, " was to be placed in a situation, in which it could act in harmony with the local government, and become a useful instrument in promoting emigration." Now, as to the settlement of the titles of land, the New Zealand Company was almost in the same position in which it was before the last debate, except that it was in a state something worse. He then entered, at great length, into the vexata qucstio of the construction to be put on the agreements made between the New Zealand Company and Lord John Russell and Lord Stanley, and contended that the New Zealand Company had been most shamefully treated by Lord Stanley, who, havtug conducted business in so loose and vague a manner, was not fit to be intrusted with the management of great public interests. He did not bring forward this motion to achieve any party object. It was not a question of parly, but of a great public body coming before the house and demanding justice. The fortunes of such a body ought not to be I sacrificed to bolster up the impolicy of any Minister. Mr. Ward seconded the motion. Mr. Hope contended that Lord Stanley had been ! treated not only harshly, but also most unjustly, by Mr. C. Buller; the promises : given by Sir R. Peel on the last debate which had been fully performed by Lord Stanley, arid he pointed with confidence to his lordship's instructions on the 27th of June to the new Governor, to show that he had mot the demands of the New Zealand Company, so far as his public duty would admit. (He read a portion of those instructions, showing that Lord Stanley had stated therein that the nearly settlement of the Company's claims was an object of more paramount importance than the opening the questious of strict right, and the carrying on of an unfriendly controversy. He would not degrade Lord Stanley by attempting to defend him from the discreditable charge of endeavouring to throw upon Captain Fitzroy the responsibility which rested upon himself; but he would ask the bouse not to fix upon Lord Stanley the responsibility of acts which he had disclaimed, and for which Capt. Fitzroy alone was responsible. He charged Mr. C. Buller with exaggerating the melancholy condition of affairs in New Zealand, and read two letters, not from any Government officer, but from a settler in that colony, one dated the 20th, and the other the 25th of March, showing that the news from the native tribes was most satisfactory. Mr. Corny c's lutter, read by Mr. C. Buller, was only to the 28th of March ; but he held in his hand a newspaper of the 29th, stating, that the reinforcements from New South Wales had imparted feelings of secruity to the inhabitants. No protection had been withdrawn from the settlers in Cook's Straits. Mr. C. Buller had blamed the government for not providing troops for the defence of the colony. He denied that Capt. Fitzroy had made such requisitions for more troops as he had stated to his Council, and ob served that he had heard that statement with as much surprise as Mr C. Buller had. he showed that r when the colony was first settled, Lord John Russell had , determined that a hundred men should be the whole i amount of force sent out for its protection. Remonstrances were made against that determination : but j Lord John persisted in it, and declared that no greater force could be sent out. The next correspondence showed that a vessel of war was sent out to New Zealand, with orders to cruise off its coast, and along with it 150 more soldiers. Afterwards Lord 1 Stanley directed the militia of the colony to be enrolled; and the non-enrolment of the militia was an act of Captain Fitzroy, in direct defiance of his orders, j and was one of the grounds of his recall. Lord j Stanley, had since directed a regiment to be sent to ! New Zealand, and had caused letters to be written ! to the Admiral on the Indian station, requesting him jto send an armed steamer to that colony. Moreover, in the Australian colonies there was now, and would be in future, a force of 4,000 men, instead of 2,500 men, which hitherto had been stationed ,there. He denied that the recent disturbances in New Zealand had resulted from the acts of the government. The great object of Lord Stanley was to carry out to the best ot his abilities the promises given by Sir R. Peel. There came out at last, however, in the conclusion of Mr. C Buller's speech, the real object of his motion—it was to obtain for the Company the land which it claimed. The only change of policy which the Company wanted was a change of policy towards themselves ; but no promise had been given in that house that any such change should b<s made, and if the Colonial Department had been guilty of any error in refusing to make that change, the error was attributable to Lord John Russell and to his instructions. The policy which Mr. C. Buller wished the government to pursue on this subject would be a spoliation of the natives, inconsistent with the honour and dignity of the Crown of Great Britain. The Attorney Geueral regretted that, after the protracted discussion which the question underwent for three nights on a former occasion, Mr. C. Buller should have again thought proper to renew it. With regard to the land question between the government and the New Zealand Company, he pointed out ■ the position in which the Government was placed by the treaty of Waitangi ; and contended that if-the government violated that treaty, it would be justly chargeable with all the lamentable consequences which might ensue from it. Atter some remarks from Mr. iLabouchere, Sir R. IngliSj and Mr. Aglionby the debate was adjourned.

On the order of the day for resuming the adjourned debate, Captain Rous attacked the proceedings of the New Zealand Companyatsome length. It appeared to h'ni that in way they had forfeited their charter, or it was in abeyance. But it must strike every man of common sense, that the Governor could not perform his duty to the Queen and to the public, so long' as there existed an iviperiuni in imperio, in New /Zealand. With respect to the sovereignty of the country, many of the native chiefs would rather die than resign it: and he could tell the House that the natives would not pay 2d. an acre for cultivated or uncultivated lands, -—that they would Dot pay customs' duties, and that if the Crown of England would not purchase their lands, they would sell them 'to whom they pleased. The house ought now to endeavour to learn, wisdom by' experience, and he would presume to advise the government, as to the course he thought it would be prudent in them to pursue. He would advise them to send out to New Zealand, a Brigadier-General, with 1000 soldiers, in two ships of the line, now cruising' in the channel. He would deprive the New Zealand Company of their charter, paying them what might be considered a just equivalent. He would guarantee to the British settlers the right and title to their lands ; awarding them also a pecuuiary compensation ; and he would ! dispense with the protectors of natives, and have more protectors of Englishmen. Sir C. Nnpier considered that the noble lord, at

the head of the Colonial office was greatly to blatn for not having taken some measures to protect the settlers in New Zealand, especially after the news of the Wairau Massacre had reached England. He might easily have done so at the conclusiou of the war in China, for one or two ships were there at his disposal. After highly complimenting Captain Robertson, he concluded by expressing a hope that the Admiralty would reward him for his gallant services. Sir Robert Peel after defence of Mr. Stephen, th 6 Under Colonial Secretary, and eulogy of Captain. Robertson with promise of promotion; entered into long explanations of some communications hetween. himself, Lord Stanley and the New Zealand Company. He then referred to Lord Normanby's instructions to Captain Hubson in August 1839, and to the Second Artie eof the Treaty of Waitangi. He considered with his noble friend Lord Stanley, that the right of Sovereignty ceded by the Natives gives the crown a right over all lands, to which ihe Native Tribes cannot lay claim ; but if they can establish a right to certain waste lands he admittted, for the interests of the Crown, of the Natives, and hereafter of the Colony, it is advantageous to induce the natives to agree to a fair cession of some of those lands : but if the question is whether the Crown ought on its own responsibility to undertake to dispossess by force and against their will, the Natives of their lands, he should be deceiving the House, if he were to say that her Majesty's Government were prepared to yield to any such demand. Lord John Russell commenced his speech like Sir Robert Peel by an eloquent tribute to the great me~ riti of Mr. Stephen as Under Secretary of the Colonies. He then complained that the subject had been made too much a question betweeu the New Zealand Company and Lord Stanley. He denied that the recall of Capt. Fitzßoy relieved the Government from its responsibility, for there was no pledge given, that the policy of the Government would be changed. The Government, however would be obliged to alter its policy in New Zealand as it had altered the policy of Lord Stanley nearer home. The time would come when Sir Robert Peel descarding the pride, pique, and obstinacy of his colleague, would determine to do justice to New Zealand; but in the mtan time the Colony would be exposed to great risk, until the colonists were treated as the sons, and not as the enemies, of the Country. The House then divided ; For the Original Motion ... 155 " Mr. Buller's resolution . . 89 Majority 66

Arrangement between the Government, and the New Zealand Company. Mr. J. A. Smith nsked whether the right hon. Baronet had any objection to lay on the table, before the house separated, the recent correspondence, between the Colonial office and the New Zealand Company ? He trusted he might be permitted to express the great satisfaction he felt, that the term was approaching to those very disagreeable discussions which had lately taken place between the Secretary for the colonies, and the Company. It was certainly true that the whole had not been obtained which the company thought to be their right, and also to be essential to the good government of the colony of New Zealand ; but he could not forget that after what had occurred, a certain degree of sacrifice on both sides was necessary, and he did hail with great satisfaction the tone and temper exhibited by the Colonial office in these transactions ; and he thought that that tone and temper were more important than the results themselves. He therefore beg« ged to thank the government for the part they had recently mken in this matter. He was exceedingly glad to find that, with the power with which the noble lord at the head of the Colonial office was armed, he felft how grateful any concession must be coming from him. Before he sat down, he must advert to one point, which had been purposely left by the company to the close of these discussions— a point which was important to the company here, and not without its importance to the prosperity of the colony, — he alluded to the application which had been made by the New Zealand Company for a loan of money from the government on ithe security of their land. He was perfectly aware that the application must be considered by the government on public grounds, and he was perfectly .willing tha' it should be be so considered ; but at 'the same time he hoped that the government would state that the application should receive consideration without delay, and would also answer it 'without any greater delay than necessary. He thought that the conduct of the New Zealand Company! in this matter was a proof that their more immediate interests had been postponed to what they considered as more the interest of the public, and that' Would be an answer, he hoped, and the best answer, to the taunt that had been thrown out, as to a "cross," having taken place between the government and the company. He begged to adJ, that the success of this application was indispensable, to enable the company to resume its operations as a colonizing company, and indispensable in his opinion, to the harmonious working of the.arraugemeut which, had just taken place. Sir R. Peel — I do not think it necessary for me to assure the House that the recent harmonious understanding betweeu the Colonial Office and the New Zealand Company, must have been to me a matter of great satisfaction ; but I am bound to state, andX do thus publicly state, that whatever credit is due for these unproved relations, mu&t be given to my noble friend. J said some time ago, that whatever might be the differences between my noble friend ami the New Zealand Company, it would be found that my noble friend was not influenced by them. lam certain that ray noble friend's past conduct in this matter, was guided by public considerations, and I*ua certaiu that' hi? future conduct will be guided by public considerations also. The correspondence that formerly took place between him and the New Zealand Company, would not, I was sure, have the slightest influence on his mind, or prevent him from, dispassionately taking into view the whole circumstances of the case; and in all that I formerly said on this subject, I spoke with the eutire concurrence of my noble friend. For the purpose of conducting the late negotiations, a gentleman was nominated wtu> has not beeu mixed up with these transactions, and. was therefore enabled to take a more dispassionate view of the case; I allude to that most distinguished, public officer, Mr. Lefevre 5 he was called <m to assist my hon. friend near me, the Uuder Secretary ' for the coionies, in this negotiation ; and he was employed by my noble friend, in concert with my * hon. friend to conduct the arrangement which has just been completed with the New Zealand Company. With respect to the general allusion that the hou. gentleman made who has Just sat down, to the satisfactory conclusion of these nugociatiom, it confirms that which 1 stated from the first, that my i\oa\c

friend was acting, in all that he did, only on public grounds. Wuh respect to a chance that a " cross " had taken place between the government and the New Zealand Company, ! think that no man who is acquainted with the respective parties, would imagine such a thiug 1 rould be possible. No secret understanding of auy kind has been entered into on the part of the government with the New Zealand Company. If any suth proposition had been made to my noble friend, it would have met with an indignant refusal. As to the application for a loan, the hon. gentleman must excuse me it I decline to give him any definite answer. If he asks me if the application shall receive the consideration of government, I have no difficulty in assuring him that the governm< nt will give an eaily consideration to the subject, but the consideration of a thing by the government is generally understood to mean a favourable consideration. Now, I cannot »ay anything of that kind. The consideration that the government will give to the subject is not to be understood as being fettered in any way. Of course, nothing could be done without the consent of Parliament. If the government came to the conclusion during the recess that the loan ought to be granted, they could only give an assurance subject to the consent of Parliament ; they could give no conclusive answer unless with the concurrence of Parliament. The hon. gentleman must excuse me thereloie, il I do not answer that question. The government cannot be understood as being fettered in auy way ; at the same time the hon. gentleman must not draw any conclusion unfavourable to tlie application Jrom what I have btated.