NEW ZEALAND. PARLIAMENTARY INTELLIGENCE. House of Commons,—March 15.

New Zealander, Volume 1, Issue 12, 23 August 1845, Page 3

NEW ZEALAND. PARLIAMENTARY INTELLIGENCE. House of Commons,— March 15.

Mr. G. W. Hope :— I wish to call the attention of the House lo a matter of very great importance. It will be in the recollection of the House that the other evening a charge was made against the noble Lord who presides over the department to which I belong, arising out of his course of conduct towards the New Zealand Company. A charge was made against my noble friend of deception and a gross want of faith. I perceive that the hon. and learned member for Liskeard, (Mr. C. Buller), hat given notice of a motion for Tuesday ne t, relative to the affairs of New Zealand, but it will not give any opportunity of vindicating the character of the noble lord. Now, 1 submit to the House, such a course is not fair. The noble - lord hns been distinctly charged in' the House with conduct wbichit notbecoming either a public officer or a gentleman, —and a petition I find is in the course of preparation, and persons of high character in the City have baen requested to sign it, imputing to the noble lord misconduct in regard to the New Zealand Company. I therefore, think the House will agree with me, that it is not fair such a charge should be made, and yet not brought forward, and an attempt made to substantiate it. Perceiving however, fuom the notice which stands for Tuesday, that it is not the intention of the New Zealand Company to bring forward and substantiate that charge before Easter, I am sure the House will feel that it is due to the position of the noble loid, as it would be only fair play to any Englishman, that an early opportunity should be afforded for the purpose of vindicating hi« character from such a charge. I shall therefore, on Tuesday nevt, bring forward a motion, for papers, which shall raise the question and enable the New Zealand Company to substantiate their charge, if it be in their power to do so. With respect to the papers which the hon. member for Liskeard, complained the other night had not been produced, I shall lay them on the table " by command," so that he may be in possession of them before the motion is made. Mr. Agliokby : I am perlectly willing to repeat the charge I made, or give my opinion of any charge that may be made against Lord Stanley, so that the House may be perfectly aware of the course I mean to take on Tuesday, I do not mean to touch upon the question of the New Zealand Company on that occasion. Loid Howick : Whatever may be the papers produced l>y the hon. member for Southampton, (Mr. G. W. Hope,) I hope he will not think n necessary to raise the whole question of the policy purtued by the Government towards the colony of New Zealand. I hope at a later period of the session, when all the papers shall have been produced, and members shall have .had^n^opportxuut^..oX>jread.Uig4liem^theiNe.W4 Zealand- question will be fully and fairly discussed. Mr. M a ngle j : Having been the parly who, I believe, in the tir&t instance, and in the strongest terms, expressed my opinion with respect to the conduct of the noble lotd at the head of the Colonial Office, I trust I may be allowed to say, in answer to what has fallen from the hon. Undersecretary, (Mr. Hope), partly in the shape of acciwation and partly in taunt, that I shall be quite ready to substantiate any charge 1 brought against Lord Stanley ; but at the same time I will not allow the hon gentleman to dictate to me the manner in which I ihould discharge my duty in this house. Ido not think it is fair that the au thoritiei at the Colonial Office, beside the other advantages they take of individuals, should take this advantage ['• hear, hear," and loud cries of "Order," amidst which the hon. gentleman sat down.] Mr. Hume wished the Under Secretary for the Colonies, to state specifically the charge which had been made against the noble lord. Mr. G. W. Hope : The charge made I under-

stand to be this : that the noble lord entered into what was stated to have been an agreement with the New Zealand Company ; that having so done, he undertook to give certain instructions to the Governor of New Zealand, and that he gave one set of instructions to the New Zealand Company, and another set of instructions to the Governor of New Zealand, inconsistent with the 01 her instructions j so that on his arrival )n the col-jny Captain Fitzroy found himself with instructions which could not enable him to carry out the arrangement made by the noble lord with the Company. Mr. Mangles : If the hon. gentleman thinks that there is any disposition on the part of the New Zealand Company, or those who represent that body to shrink from any charge they have made against the Colonial Office in general, or Lord Stanley in particular, he is exceedingly mistaken. The hon. Under Secretary for the Colonies need be under no apprehension that he will not hav.e the opportunity fully to discuss, the whole charge. As to the petition to which he said signatures have been solicited in the City, he may depend upon it the great merchants and bankers there, are not parties likely to be induced to sign a petition against the Colonial or any other public department without being thoroughly convinced of the justice of .their case. If the hon. Under Secretary supposes that ,the ' Colonial Office stands well with the country,' he labours under a delusion. That office is reprobated by the whole country,— l repeat it, — the Colonial Office is held to be the plague and nuisance of the country J— and 1 believe the hon. gentleman, (Mr. Hope), and the noble lord at the head of the office are the only persons who do not hold that opinion. Sir. R. Ing l is: After the challenge which has been thrown out, it will be necessbry for the hon. Under Secretary to bring forward his motion in a shape to elicit the opinion of the House, when it will appear whether it be true, as alleged by the bon. member for Guildford, that the conduct of the Colonial Government is reprobated by every individual in the country except by Lord Stanley and his Under Secretary, who has a seat in this house. I believe the contrary willappear by the votes of an immense majority, of this house, and that the great majority of the people of the country are in favor of the conduct ofthe noble lord. Sir R. Peel: After the discussion the other night, few gentlemen will doubt that there would be, on the part of my noble friend at the head of the Colonial department and bis colleagues, an earnest, desire -that the sense of the House should be taken in some form or other with respect to the policy he has pursued in re- ' lation to New Zealand and the New Zealand Company ; and if any gentleman did entertain a doubt, the expressions used to night, must hay« altogether removed it from his mind. The hon. member for Guildford, (Mr. Mangles,) a member I believe, of the N. Z. Company, has declared that the Colonial department is viewed by the . commercial interests of this country as a pest and a nuisance; and the hon. gentleman must feel I am sure, that he is under an obligation to bring forward a charge of that kind. Whether speaking as a member of the N. Z. Company, or as a member of Parliament, he is bound to give > the- • House^atoppjailmatyjtotßmnouncing^nopinion: oil that subject. lam quite aware that we cannot compel an hon. gentleman to bring forwaid any motion implying a charge against any particular department of the Government. That 1 lies within the discretion of every hon. gentleman. It was left in doubt the other night whe- ' ther any such motion would be brought forward. 1 think the hon. gentleman said such a motion ( might bn brought forward. .1 did not understand him to pledge himself to bring it' forward. The hon. gentleman who seconded the motion the other night did not pledge himself absolutely to, bring it forward. He used expressions implying that i.c might, but gave no pledge that he would, bring it forward. Whenever that question may be brought forward, thfn will be the time to move such an amendment, in case the words of the motion are at all equivocal, as shall call distinctly and definitely lor m\ expression of the opinion of the House, Apart altogether from the question of his general policy, there is a point on which my noble friend must feel most strongly. A distinct charge had been brought' against him, implying a want of good faith in his dealing with the N. Z. Company. It was brought forward towards the close of the debate the other night, after both my hon. friend (Mr. Hope) and 1 had addressed the House. Now, my noble friend (Lord Stanley,) is most anxious that we should not separate for the holidays without his having an opportunity of distinctly explaining his conduct to the House, and, by referring to the documents, of showing, as I think he can conclusively show, tnat this accusation of a want of good faith in bis dealings with the N. Z. Company, is without foundation. Ido not apprehend that my bon. friend, (Mr. Hope), would propose on Tuesday next to call on the House for any expression of opiuion ; but as the representative of my noble friend the Secretary of State for the Colonies, he is most anxious on a matter not immediately or necessarily provok-ing.a,disciiasica-on L the general policy of the de-partment^butt>in'ja-.esp«ctu>fj>^wJiichJiis personal > _ conduct and good faith have been called in question, not to allow the House to separate without giving some explanation of that particular point. Mr. Aglionuy admitted the fairness of the course suggested ; but he thought he had reason to complain that the hon. Under Secretary had not given private notice to himself and otb,er members connected with the N. Z. Company, that he intended to bring this matter forward. He had merely stated the circumstance to the hon. member for Guildford, five minutes before, behind the Speaker's chair. Parliamentary usajze and gentlemanty courtesy requited longer notice than this. If he (Mr. Aglionby) rightly understood the hon. gentleman the Colonial Under Secretary, it was uot his object immediately to bring before the House for discussion and division, the whole question of the complaints of the N. Z. Company against the Colonial Office, and their demand for reparation and redress, but to confine himself to the case of Lord Stanley. Toe Company however, were not to be dragged into the discussion when and in what way that hon, gentleman might please. What he (Mr;

Aglionby) had said in the late debate had been correctly stated by tiie hon. baronet, (Sir R. Peel), and he used advisedly the expressions referred to, not then believing the debate would take the somewhat angry turn it afterwards did, but alluding tothe probability of the subject being again brought forward as a dernier resort. For Weeks past a petition had been framing with a view to bring before the House the whole caseof the N. Z Company, but it required great consideration as to the best way of shaping the application, to the justice of the House and the Go vernment ; it had been modelled and re-modelled to make it as perfect as possible, and there was some doubt whether it would be ready to bepre* sented before Easter. Until then, it Mould be hopeless to suppose that hon. members would make themsehes acquainted with the facts, by mastering the whole of the large Blue-book on the table. He feared, if they were dragged piematurely into the subject, the strong jmma facie which it was right and natural should exist in favor of any department of the Government, ■would not be met- by any clear knowledge of facts, showing how the Company had been thwarted in its elforts by the Colonial Office. He did believe, that if the right hon. baronet (Sir 11. Peel), sa-.v all the circumstances of the case, and the justice of the claims of the Company, with the injuries they had sustained in disappointed expectations, then an ultimate ap> peal to the House, as far as the Company was concerned, might be dispensed with; and it was under this iinpiession that he Mr. Aglionby spoke as he did. He had not the slightest objection to, stale what his charge was. In the late debate there was a contention between ihe hon. gentleman, (Mr. G. W.Hope) and the lion, member for Liskeaid, (Mr. C. Duller,) on the subject of striking out ihe woid "instructions." He, (Mr. Aglionby) had felt an objection to the uord ''instructions," in the plural, not knowing how it might be evaded, or what it might include. For the facts were tueae:— After much negociation with the Colonial Office, a very angry and hostile letter, which was w ritten on the part of the N. Z Company, exposing what they called the misconduct of the Colonial Office, was agreed to be withdrawn. After many discussions on terms,! Lord Stanley stated that he could not offer his' terms ; he could not condescend to originate a pioposal ; but that the Company had better make their own proposal, sending it first in draft, (and not officially) to his lordship, that he might point out any particulars to which he should not be able to assent.' This was done, and alterations were made, and the draft was settled by the Colonial Office, though he (Mr. Anglionby,) did not know whether by Lord Stanley himself. The Company had this agreement copied, and sent in, exactly as they had received it, and Lord •Stanley promised to send out instructions to Governor Fitzroy founded on that document. Its terms vt ere many times discussed with that gbiitlemau ; he i^Mr. Aglionby) met Captain jfr'itzroy at the Colonial Office, in the presence of Loid Stanley, and with other of the N. Z. Company's Directoie. He (Mr. Aglionby,) never -was informed during the whole of these discussions, that any other letter had passed upon the subject of that agreement, (as he'would call it,) than theJetterof the hon. gentleman (Mr.Hope), of the 1 2th May, 1843, printed in the Report, though e»ery item had been carefully considered and discussed between the Company and Lord Stanley. Would it be believed then, that during all these meetings, Loid Stanley had in his possession, a letter from Captain Fitxroy expressing doubts as to the construction of the letter of 12th 1843,— and that he had written to Captain Fitzioy ! bir R. Peel thought the hon and learned member might state what his charge was, without reasoning upon it. Mr. Aglionby agreed, and would avoid doing so The letter of Captain Fitzroy never was made known to the Company, nor the answer of Lord Stanley, giving his*construction of the document referred to. He (Mr. Aglionby) met Captain Fitzroy from time to time, saw him on board ship, took leave of him With the best wishes 'for his prosperity ; but never, during «11 that time, was this correspondence communi cated. It was not disclosed until December, six months after he had sailed. How those letters could have been kept secret by Captain Fitzroy he did not understand. When at last produced, there was an erasure at the top, and the word "confidential," appeared to have been upon it. The charge then, was this,— that in such a negoeiation good fjith required that all which passed on the subject of discussion should be m.ide known to the parties concerned. The hon. gentleman, (Mr. Hope,) hud argued, that Lord Stanley's second "letter, which was thus concealed was not inconsistent with the letter which was disclosed; he, (Mr. Anglionby) would venture to !>a}, he should show to every thinking man on Tuesday that it w as ; but, be it so or not, there ought to have been no private letters ; letters not communicated, but kept se<-i;et. Such an act of duplicity would prevent his ever ti eating with Loid Stanley again upon any subject, unless some secuiity cuii ld be ghen that good faith would be l.e ( jt. i\lt. Hum a thought the personal charge agaiiihi Lord Stanley, should be separated from the general charge against the depaitment. Many might think, with himself, that the Colonial department was not in the power of any Mngle human being to conduct ; that was a very disiinct subject from the perso.ial charge of misro iducl agdiiibt the i oble lord. Nothing could be more, unpleasant to any one than to have such a charge hanging over his head ; an 1 therefore it would be better for ihe Government to take one of their ownda)s, — an ordei'-da\s. Sir R. Pkel said that a regard for the public business rendered that impossible ; it was essontial that progress should be made belore liasterin the financial measuies before the House. Lord J. Russell : I entirely agree with the hon. member for Monrose, /Mr. Hume), in this, — that whatever be t, c duy selected, we should endeavotn to se|a<dte any peisonal cliaige wtia.h theie may lie against the noble lord fium another question, — the question ot the govern merit of New Zealand. 1 i annot wonder that the noble lord should wish that the charge made against nun of breach of faith with respect lo an

engagement of any kind should be cleared, and every explanation given which may have to be offered on his part. As to the result of the debate, there is no doubt, as the hon. member for Oxford (Sir R. Inglis) has said, that if it comes to a division in this house there will be a large majority in favor of the noble lord ; but there is another question, and a most important one, upon which I hope the house will not look as merely confined to the honour or character, or immediate interests of the Administration, — it is the question of the government of this important colony. I believe, that New Zealand, if its resources are rightly cultivated, and if it is pro • perly governed, is destined to have a great influence on that part of the world. I believe that the 18,000 or 20,000 Englishmen who are there are destined in all probability to be the progenitors of the governors of a great part of that hemisphere. But if this question is of great importance, it is fit that we should discuss it, if possible, separately from all personal questions. For my part, I really have not formed an opinion whether the New Zealand Company aie right in bringing any charge Jagemst Lord Stanley or whether the noble lord is right in saying that there is no foundation whatever for the charge ; but of this 1 feel very well convinced, that the tone used by the Colonial Oifice in writing to the N. Z. Company, and by the N. Z. Company in writing to the noble lord, fcis far too angry and controversial for a correspondence between a department of the Government and a public Company. Whatever, question there may be, therefore between the N. Z. Company and the noble lord, if that controversy is to be continued in the same spirit in this house, in which the letters have been written which are published, that ought to be made a separate discussion ; and 1 hope that some other time we may come in the calmest manner to the consideration of the instructions which have been framed tor the guidance of Governor Fitzroy, and to discussing whether those instructions were judicious, and whetuer the conduct of that Governor is such a* is likely to promote harmony, and tend to the weltare of the colony. Without wishing to P'onounce any opinion as to the propriety of | bringing on the pe-sonal question, 1 do wish to ' put in this word on the part of the public, — that the questions may be kept separate, and that ihe House may endeavour to rescue the important colony of New Zealand from the distress and misfortune in which it is at present involved. If it should appear in the course of discussion that any proceedings of mine sha 1 be liable to any part of the blame, I am ready to bear that blame, only let us if possible, lay down some rule for the future, by which that colony may have hope of prosperity. Mr. G. W. Hope, after leferring to the stale of the paper for Tuesday, slated that if he found it impossible to bring on the motion on that day, he would take Thursday. [Want of space compels us to forego the publication of Tuesday's debate till next week.]