PARLIAMENTARY.

Nelson Evening Mail, Volume IX, Issue IX, 20 August 1874, Page 2

PARLIAMENTARY.

"Wellington, August 19. Mr Sheehan resumed the debate He said tbat the spectacle of Mr O'Rorka leaving the Treasury benches was something for the country to be proud of, as it was not every day that a man voluntarily abandonel a large salary for the sake of bis convictions. Another spectacle was in seeing a gentleman, (Mr Reynolds) once known as a watch dog, muzzled on the Ministerial benches, because if he bad spoken according to his conviction he would not confine himself to a few extracts from speeshes in favor of the abolition of the provinces. As to the inability of the Northern provinces to carry out local government services, he would boldly declare that the Northern provinces were prepared to tax themselves, as they had done before, over and above Colonial requirements, sooner than abandon the privileges of local self government*. He referred to the manner in which the Treasurer had crippled the usefulness of the Northern provinces by the capitation tax eince 1870, and then wished to abolish them because of tbeir poverty. Long before the General Government built a bridge or made a ro?d the provinces had been -engaged in the work of colonisation. He agreed with the House as to the able manner in which the Minister for Public Works had dealt with his duties, but how many hundred thousand pounds had been squandered before the Colonial Government learned, irom the provinces how to make rosda and bridges. The provinces generally made one pound go as far as two by the Colonial Government. He contended that the House had not carried out iv good faith the promises made tession after session to purchase the landed estate for the North Island from the Natives. If the divisions of the North Island were not suitable, - politically or geographically, the same might be said of tbe South When the Premier complimented those who managed the affairs of the North Island as being the fittest men to carry out the work entrusted to them, ie was like a boa constrictcr licking its. victims all over to enable it to swallow them more easily. If the Middle Island members supported tbe resolution they would find that they were paving the way for their own extinction. They would .oon see that the North Island members would be prepared to create a colonial landed estate by abolishing the Southern provinces and appropriating their land. He distrusted the figures adduced by the Premier as to tbe cost of the North Island. In 1872, Auckland spent on public works, £1900, with a departmental expenditure of £600; in 1873. £78,000 at a coet of £3400, and on another occasion £i 0,000 at a cost of £100. The total executive cost of tbe province of Auckland was not more than the salary of the Commissioner of Customs. They spent more in the hangings of that chamber in the iast few years than would carry on the Government of Auckland for one year. As to the goldflelds sop, he could say for the Auckland goldflelds revenue, tbat while Auckland received £148 000 from her goldflelds she returned to them £169,000 The only reduction that could be effected by tbe abolition of the province, would be the cost of the Provincial Government, but the ordinary charges and services would have to be paid as usual. If any reduction or charge was required it ought to be iv reducing the cost and powers of the General Government. Apart from justice and a few other departments, what had the General Government to do ? The Customs and Postal departments might be entrusted to some respectable banking company, while native matters would have been less trouble if the suggestion once made by the hon. member for Rangitikei (Mr Fox), tbat the Superintendents should control Native afiairs in tbeir own provinces, had been carried out. . Was this change demanded by the public or the press ? No, every paper (?) in the colony prefaced its remarks on the resolutions by expressing surprise. If ever a man went directly in the face of his utterances for the last twelve yeara, that man was the Premier. He would not be at all surprised if next year these proposals were abandoned, so many were his phases of opinion. He would say this, that if the hon gentleman brought down a proposal in this shape next year, and if tbe provinces went, the hon gentleman would go with them. Mr Tribe said that in his opinion the country was much over-governed. His constituents well knew when he came as tlie advocate of the public works policy, it was because he looked upon it as a means of sweeping away provincialism because it left but little ior it to do. There was not a single member who opposed the resolution but afforded heaps of arguments in its favor. They, in fact, contended that you could keep nine households at a less cost than one. Why the amount of legislation with which the provinces deluged the country was bewildering As to the cheapness of provincial management, he could a tale unfold as to that. Never had he seen such gross mismanagement as he had seen in the province of Canterbury. It was only tbe force of circumstances that had dragged it out of the mud. The provincial surveys were a comment upon their management. Scarcely a town section in Christchurch was correctly laid down. The contractor ior carrying the mails between Canterbury and Westland had a contract with one Government, but was unable to carry it out because the other Government could not repair the roads. The gold miners Buffered great oppression on account of tbe double Government. In the present constitution of the House, with the o veraweing power of the Superintendents^ was almost impossible to obtain an independent and unbiassed opinion. This question had been revolving so long in all their minds that it might at any time have been thrown down to the House and decided by a silent vote. The hon. gentleman commented upon the many provincial changes which had taken place in the Colony in consequence of the dissatisfaction with provincialism. He was glad to see that the press of Westland was unanimously favorable to the resolution. He believed with the member for Egmont, that provincialism was the worst form of centralism. He looked upon tbe resolution as the forerunner of the abolition of provincialism throughout the Colony. It was a notable fact that those who opposed the resolution most strongly were the recipients of provincial money, even to the gentlemen who moved the previous question. The land laws of the Colony and their strange complication afforded strong re_sons for one supreme control. It was a most parnicious principle tor the General Government to raise large loans to purchase the landed estate, and then to hand it over to the irresponsible provinces. The time was ripe for the resolutions and had been ripe for the last ten years. There was no surprise, and nothing revolutionary in them. They had already several times altered and amended the constitution, and he hoped that when the Bill founded on these resolutions, was brought in next session it would not go beyond the second reading, so as to allow the tetiriog Parliament to go before the country. Mr Gibbs supported the resolution. He pointed out how few of the North Island members opposed the measure. He would rather see an appeal to tbe people than any alteration in the present Ministry before the expiration of Parliament.. Probably the question would be more ful». discussed, if more time had been given, buf the coming recess would prepi-re them to discuss any measure brought down very full. Mr. Murray said he foresaw^ when the PubUo Works policy w <*? \xtfmmmmem

the centralising extravagance of the Colonial ' Government must end in the destruction of i the_ provinces: The Province of Otago had | a bitter experience of the mischievous policy of the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government, when, as Treasurer of Otago, his financing had nearly turned them aU into ardent Centralists. They escaped, however, by the hon.. member working himself into a higher arena. While he opposed Provincialism generally as a burden upon the colony, he would oppose the resolution for ihe purpose of delaying the question for another year. Mr. Reader Wood said it was clear if there was no Opposition leader, there was a wellorganized party to oppose the Government, but they appeared as little able to -frame a policy as to chooee a leader. Their only ground of agreement whs the lame and imp.teut conclusion that they dare not discuss the question upon its merits, but. tbey met the distinct issue by moving the previous question. Boldly tha Government had thrown down the gage nf battle, but though tlie Opposition boasted s of many abe men well able to hold their own," not one dared to take it up. He had been ior some time forced to the conclusion tbat the days of Provincialism were over. So firmly convinced was he of this, that this session he intended to bring down a resolution affecting the question himself. He had consulted no one, and only mentioned it to the member for Franklyn who bail agreed t . second it. Holding these views, and having had that intent, he felt bound to give his cordial support to the Premier's resolution. What was the general objection to such a simple proposal ? — Oh! the Premier promised us he would not make any organic change this session. What an inconsequential conclusion! No change was proposed this session. More alarm could not have been expressed if the Premier had brought down a measure effecting a radical change, and asked to support the Standing Orders to carry it through all its stages in one day. The hon. member for Rodney (Mr. Sheehan) could speak on both sides well. W hen he, as Provincial Secretary of Auckland, was passing the E iucation Act, which was opposed hy thousands of the population, who petitioned the Governor, he pooh-poohed such agitation. He said, "• Who is going to be bullied in this way? We are doing our duty, and are not going to be deterred from it." He believed with tbe member for Franklyn that New Zealand had on its back how as much as it could bear, and that alone would induce him to support the resolution, so that the colony should not come down year alter year to borrow, chiefly to keep going the provinces that were practically defunct. They were told that the Premier was not sincere but only angry with Wellington, but he lor one considered that he was forced into it. He then proceeded to detail how when public works aud immigration were first proposed he was alarmed at the mode in which it was proposed to carry it ou t, and iv cor junction with - the member for Auckland City West and others formed the nucleus of an Opposi" tion which grew and grew until it became strong enough to unseat the Government. What was the result? This—That the hon ] member for Auckland City West (Mr T. B. Gillies) who said on the Opposition Benches that he could not support the Ministry, the moment he was upon the Government Benches took up their card-] and accepted their _ tikes. The honorable member then quoted from a speech of the member ior Port Chalmers (Mr Macandrew) upon moving his resolution for two Governments of the colony in 1871 to show that the arguments then adduced by him were just as applicable to the situation now. The member for Port Chalmers show, d the necessity lor some great change when he said it would be more statesmanlike to come down with a measure to clip the wings of the General Government. All this showed tbat uneasiness! was felt atja double system of Government. The General Government was embarrassed with the Provincial Governments, and they in their turn wanted to assume the supreme control The member tor Rodney abandoned 'his position -before he had spoken ten minutes. He was prepared to shed the last drop of his brothers blood, even of his littie brothers of Taranaki and Hawke's Bay. The hon. gentleman objected to one land law for the North Island but could say that when there was only one land law for. the Colony, it was the most effective they ever had. He proceeded to show the evil effects of the provinces coming down every session for loans, and said that the House should feel indebte d to the Upper House for its constitutional action last session in putting a stop to them. The arguments from North a:d South were this: — The South said, carry this resolution, and it is the thin end ot the wedge to abolish the southern provinces and take our land from us; as if the land fund had anything to do with provincialism. The North said, you 1 strip us of our local self-Government and leave us nothing instead. But neither was 1 true, ior the resolution was supported by many in both Islands. Io the early days the Provincial Governments di I the work of colonisation, and did it well, but now they had delegated tbe work of the cities to Municipalities, of harbor works to Harbor Boards, and 1 of works in the country to Road t ßoard_*, and 1 the country recognised how well they did * their work by supporting them. This left to Provincial Government only Hospitals, Lunatic Asylums, and Gaol.. What would be the result, if to-morrow, Provincial Governments were swept away? Everything ; would go on just as well. As to the im- ; pecuniosity of Auckland, he need only say ' that last session they employed themselves in [ passing bogus Estimates, the funds for ' which, they knew bad no existence, but when he came to this House he found a Bill for \ borrowing £40,000. Probably those Esti- ' mates were passed the more easily to enable the Superintendent to raise the loan. Feeling 1 how embarrassing such a state of things was 1 to the gentleman at the head of the Govern- ' ment, he must cordially support tho resoiu- : tion. Mr Williamson (Superintendent of Auck- ' land) accused the last speaker of making un- - warrantable assertions. He was not surprised | at one who, when contesting the Superin--1 tendency election, sing doleful; dirges only intended to decently inter the province. He > stood up for the province with which his ' whole political life was identified. There was ' good in it, and he said Destroy it not. The ' hon member then explained how, after assuming 1 office, he had visited all parts of the province 1 tb discover its requirements, and applied to 1 the Gtneral Government for an advance to i the Pumping Association on the security of | the land fund. It appeared to him that with ' their borrowed millions the Colonial Govern- *■ ment was developing an assumptive spirit 3 quite beyond the plain men of the colony. | They were indulging in ail the mimicry of an 1 Imperial Parliament, . To hear the members ! of the Government speak, one would suppose 1 they belonged to some great empire thou- ' sands of miles away from the province. , and j yet it was the provinces which were keeping 1 up that Government. Now the provinces had not been receiving fair play. The pro- • vincial expenditure was referred to, but he _ would like to see the Minister of Public - Works in the north of Auckland, where he had never been yet, where £60,000 had been . squandered under the supervision of the Hon. 1 Mr Katene, as civil engineer, though he i would like to know where he learned enr gineering. What was the meaning of the . sop to Wellington regarding the seat ot - Government? Lid any one want to dispossess . her of that honor? And, as to ensuring it to 1 _¥ r _. n<m by an oath » was that likel y to be s binding upon their successors? The same might be said of the compact of 1856. > Tberewasno law required in either case, ______M_________________________________M

Though he voted for the compact of 1856, and had it thrown in his teeth, he never regretted doing so. Hewa.no ultra-provincialist and was not opposed to the Government, but he felt bound to vote against this motion, and he only hoped the Government would reconsider the position they had taken up; for he felt tbat the people would not give up their privileges without a struggle, and they would find that a new c'ass of men would come into that House who would soon reverse th. order of things, I Applause ] On the House meeting this afternoon, Mr M'Glashan said that he regarded the resolutions as merely a necessary preliminary to bringing the matter uuder the consideration of the public. He diew the attention of the House to the fact that the chief opponents were the Superintendents and Secretaries of Otago, Canterbury, Auckland, and Nelson. Their conduct certainly opened them to the charge that they were actuated by the sweets of office. He could not be a party to placing the Government practically in the hands of a few provincial officials who ought to be looking after the affairs of their provinc.a, and not ia the House at all. He had no apprehension for the Middle Island land fund, for in a few .years the North Island must have a considerably greater landed estate. He supported the resolution as being what the country required. Mr Cuthbertson would vote for the resolutions. It reminded him of the ragged regiments of soldiers sometime, seen in theatres passing off one end of the- stage and coming on from the other. If he had been inclined to Hansardise he could not find more arguments in favor of the resolutions than in the old speeches of the hon. member for Port Chalmers, but he held that no tiiinking man need be ashamed of changing his opinions. What held good to-day was not always so tomorrow There never yet was a reform that abstractionists would not cry out that the time was inopportune. It was never inopportune to redress grievances. If the proposal was entirely wrong then it was inopportune. In any case the question was propounded, and their opinion upon its merits was demanded. The assertion that the Premier merely brought down the resolution in a fit of bad temper on account of the opposition to the Forests Bill was too childish to notice. Spoking from personal experience as to the economy of provincialism he had not been favorably impressed with that economy, and he was only surprised that the hon. member for Port Chalmers, who knew so much about the trials and struggles of Southland, should pretend to challenge the economy and effectiveness of Provincial Governments. The very existence of the Southland province was owing to tbe fact that Southland could never get her fair share of the revenue which she had been contributing to Otago. Through the local jealousy of < ) tago as against Southland an enormous and wholly unnecessary expenditure •was willingly gone, purely out of a feeling of jealousy, nor were the outstanding districts of Otago proper treated much better. Was not the Timaru and Gladstone Board of Works another standing protest against the ceutralising tendencies of Provincial Governments. They never would give to the districts a tithe of the revenue raised in them. The hon gentleman referred to the remarks of Mr J. L. Gillies as to the superior economy of the Provincial Government compared with the General Government, and deniei their accuracy. When it tvns stated that the province had expended £579,000 for works at a departmental cost of £3,000, while the General Government expended £703 in laying out £105,000 for works, the hon member seemed to forget that there were only a few lines as yet laid out by the province and not completed, where the General Government bad actually completed a good deal of work, and had in fact paid away last year £300,000. It was puerile to talk of tbe unconstitutioaaiity of making a change. He sincerely hoped all our institutions were sasc.pti.le of growth according to the progress of the times. The objections to the resolutions answered themselves, because no change would be made before the country had an ample opportunity of discussing the matter. -It was idle for the hon member for Port Chalmers to say it was evident that tbe resolutions would lead <o the spoliation of the land fund, when the compact of 1856 had stood intact for nineteen years without any attempt to disturb it. Ho would appeal to the House that this was no time to vote for the previous question, especially when tbe Government staked its existence upon it. The question should be fought out upon ita merits. Mr Hunter, speaking with thirty - five years experience as a colonist, said that the General Government had only been a colonising Government within the last four years ; before that it was merely a taxgatherer. All tbe good they did was to leave them a heavy legacy ot debt from their management of Native affairs. He denied that tbe question had ever been before the public to do away with Provincialism in ooe island and retain it in the other, and he believed the people would oppose it heartily, He considered that the question of the Seat of Government, and the compact of 1856 had no connection with the abolition of the provinces. Those in question would right themselves. If the North had made a bad bargain in the compact, it must stand by it. No doubt the day would come when the North I-danl would be able to pa v back aoy indebtedness to the South. He could not help thinking that the discussion might operate injuriously upon the money market at home, besides creating a good deal of bad feeling. While opposing the resolution, he must say that he would regard it as a calamity if the present Ministry retired from office. He sincerely regretted having to differ from those with whom he had so long associated himself, but a representative owed a duty to the colony as well ns to his party. He felt confident that one result of carrying the resolution would be to bring about a uniform system of legislation. The House then adjourned for the dinner hour. August 20. On the House resuming in the evening, Mr Webb supported the resolutions, stating thane was not long in discovering that provincialism was the weak element iv the Colonial legislation. Mr Swanson, in a long speech, condemned the inefficiency of the General Government eloquently, and blamed the Assembly for all the troubie an 1 poverty in the North Island, Mr Bryce supported the resolutions in an argumentative speech. Mr White condemned the resolutions. Why not carry them out to their legitimate conclusion by abolishing the General Assembly and appointing a Dictator. Mr Reeves explained that he was not a contractor for the Provincial printing Mr T. Kelly supported the resolutions, and said that Auckland was a pauper 7 years ago. Mr Harrison opposed, and blamed the General Government for the impecuniosity of Westland and Nelson. Mr Richardson, in defending himself from the charge of extravagance, said that the . departmental expenditure upon £1,960,000 was not 2_ per cent. Mr Jackson said the General Government had managed his district satisfactorily, and better than the Provincial Government was likely to do. Mr J. E. Brown moved the adjournment of the debate.