EXECUTIVE COUNCIL BILL.

Nelson Evening Mail, Volume IX, Issue 125, 27 May 1874, Page 2

EXECUTIVE COUNCIL BILL.

In moving the second reading of the Executive Council Bill in the Provincial Council last night, Mr Acton Adams said that he was folly aware of the responsibility that rested upon him in bringing forward a Bill involving so grave a constitutional change. Having briefly referred to the clauses in detail he went on to say that the responsibility of the Executive was not only desirable, but iv accordance with the Constitution Act. In section 3 of that Act, provision was made for the election of a Superintendent and Provincial Council, and in section 18 power was given to the Superintendent, with the advice and consent of tbe Executive Council, to make laws, &c. In the year 1853, our flrßt Provincial Executive Bill was passed, which provided for the appointment of a Provincial Treasurer and Solicitor. In the same year, it might be interesting to members to learn that a petition was presented from the Waimea districts praying for the constitution of a responsible Executive. In 1856 a Provincial Secretary was provided for, and in 1870 what was called our first Responsible Government Act — a term which he altogether repudiated — was passed, in which it was stated that the Executive was to be composed of not less than three members, oil of whom were to be responsible except the Provincial Secretary, while their duties were denned to be simply to advise the Superintendent, who. however., was not compelled to act upon such advice. That Act had been called a failure, though he didjnot know why, as no inconvenience whatever had arisen out of it. The Act was in the following session repealed by the casting vote of the Speaker, and since then the Executive had been once more merely nominees and appointees of the Superintendent. Tbe question now was whether the Executive should be made responsible to the Couucil or not. If the Council was to create the Executive it was but reasonable that they should be responsible to their creators, they should be tbe delegates of the Council to the Superintendent, not his nominees to the Council, and then there would be imported into tho Government of the province the conjoined views of the Council and the Executive. With responsible government there would be no more need for Supplementary Estimates, as the Executive would take core that the wants of all the various districts would be provided for on the original estimates, which at the present time were those of the Superintendent alone aided by his clerks, for he actually appropriated the whole of the revenue, and the Executive told the Council it was no use to apply for. further sums as there would be no money at their disposal. The General Assembly in all its legislation had evidently contemplated responsible government, for aU. the Acts provided for the Superintendent acting with the advice and consent of the Executive. Of what use would tbat be under present circumstances, for if any of them demurred to the Superintendent's proposals, all be had to do waß to tell them to go about their business The larger provinces had adopted the system of responsible government, and when such men as Mr Williamson, Mr Moorhouse, and Mr Macandrew were able to carry out Buch a system, surely the Bame might be done here. The position of the Executive at present, not supported by the Council but only by the Superintendent, was altogether lamentable. It was also unsatisfactory, for no check could be placed upon the Superintendent, except when he came before them every four years for re-election, and at the meetings that took place on those occasions there was no opportunity of calmly discussing his actions. He felt sure that the system of responsibility would lead to our better government, and that when it was adopted we might in the wordß of Mr Stafford bid good bye to the wretched past, and he hoped that on that evening they were about to take the first step towards obtaining a more active aad efficient government. The many arguments against the principle adopted- in his bill were that it would lead to greater expense and constant changes, but he thought that it would rather lead to a curtailment of the expenses, as the Executive would be more desirous of meeting tbe views of ;the Council, who bad strong feelings on the question of retrenchment. He thought that for the present at least, and until the public works were more extensive the offices of Treasurer and Secretary might be combined, yv As for office iß^ekiiig" the salaries y/ere , too. r small ..ib.'t-jTpjcl out Bufficientfinducement to accept office to any butprofe^sforial .politicians, as both commercial and'^rbfeisional men Could make far more in the pursuit of their j

ordinary avocations. Responsibility, too, would add to tho dignity and importance of the office, as men would moke it a far greater object of ombition if they were appointed "by the Council instead of by the Superintendent. The Provincial Secretary had said the other night that the prosperity of a province was dependent more upon its resources than upon its government, but good servants and the latest improvements would always make far more even out of bad soil than slovenly and careless farming, and so with an active and energetic Government, the resources of thia province might be turned to account, and our rocks made to yield their golden treasures to such an extent as very speedily to double our population. He had only been in the Council a year, but he had always worked assiduously in the direction of obtaining our railway, and that together with responsible government would, he felt sure, soon bring about a very different state of things, He would stand by the principle of the bill, and did not care how much it might be altered in Committee. Mr Corbett seconded the motion. Mr Gibbs was not at all sure that all the good results that were promised would follow the passing of the Bill which it appeared was to be thrown on the floor of the Council, while they were to be asked to put it into shape. If the Bill were to have the result of adding to our revenue it certainly would be a most desirable measure, but as it was he thought it would but add to our expenses, and consequently he should vote against it. Mr Boase had approached the subject very timidly for some time, because he had not bestowed sufficient thought upon it, but after doing so he had come to the conclusion to sign articles and take a trip with those who were favorable to the Bill. When the Superintendent was on his election tour he bad frequently stated that he would call the Council together and choose a new Executive, which he hoped to be able to do with the unanimous consent of the Council. This had not been done. There had been a direct breach of promise, and the whole country felt it as such. He hoped that this Bill would be but a means to an end, and that it would eventually result in making the Superintendent more responsible to the people. Tbe policy of the present Government was most unsatisfactory, and after the election of Superintendent was over, and the lurid light of excitement no longer irradiated the scene, there was nothing left but glittering tinsel which was only fit to be thrown on the dunghill of cowardice and contempt. The conduct of the Waste Lands Board called for responsibility somewhere, while the Districts Revenues Bill had proved a complete bungle, and been a source of nothing but trouble and sorrow. It had been stated that responsible government was not approved of by the majority of the public, but tbis he did not believe, but even if it were so, any departure from an accustomed groove always called forth opposition, and the missiles of prejudice were hurled at the heads of those who suggested it, while afterwards it was generally admitted that the move had been in the right direction. He would ask the Executive whether they could conscientiously state that the government of the province was as good as it might be. He would ask the public were they satisfied, and o'er hill and dale there floated the echo, No, no. If something were not done soon be should be glad to hear of the death of Provincialism. The Provincial Solicitor felt that nothing he could say would affect a single vote, as members' minds were already made up and there was no doubt tbat the Bill would be read tbe second time, but he could not allow it to go to a division without expressing his opinion upon it. He felt some difficulty in discussing the Bill, for really it embodied no principle whatever. He did not envy the position of the mover who had refused to allow Mr Donne to bring in the Bill that he proposed, and immediately afterwards came down with one of his own. Leave was given to him to introduce it and he was at the time very chary in defining its principles, and he now told them that he himself proposed to amend it and was willing to allow the Council to alter it as they pleased. Really and practically it would have to be re-drawn altogether. Why was it sought to introduce responsible government? No sufficient reason had been shown for it by the mover, there had been no expression of public opinion on the question, and an attempt recently made to extract one had proved a complete failure, neither had the press urged the matter at all. Reference had been made to the Constitution Act but he believed that nothing was further from the thoughts of the framers of it than responsible Provincial Government, but rather, that the whole spirit of the Act was to place the responsibility on tbs Superintendent, whereas what was now proposed was to remove it from his Bhoulders altogether. He saw no necessity whatever for the Bill but thought that if tbe Council wanted to render the Executive responsible a • resolution to that effect would be quite sufficient. Nothing was Baid in the Bill of the extent to which responsibility was to r be carried. The Superintendent waa simply to be a member of the Executive with the privilege of a caßting as well as a deliberative vote and there was nothing, about the power "of veto on the side either of the Superintendent or tbe Executive. He was quite sure that after passing through

Committee the Bill would have assumed such a shape that the mover himself would not know it. The effect of the proposed system would ba constant fights for office and increased expenditure, as the permanent staff must of necessity be increased, for, competent as the provincial clerk was, he would be quite unable to give the necessary information. A gieat cry had been raised tbat the estimates were not framed in accordance with the expenditure, but with the exception of £300 off the Wardens' salaries, and £50 off that ol the clerk at Westport no reduction had been effected. The Government had been found fault with for many things but fault finding was very easy, while to suggest a remedy was another thing and hitherto the only proposal that had been made was that an indefinite something must be done. He did not believe io the bill and certainly should vote against it. If the change brought disaster let the responsibility rest on the right shoulders; if, on the other hand, it produced a better state of th ; ags, he was quite prepared to allow those who had brought forward and supported it the fullest credit. Mr O'Conor thought the previous speakers had wandered very much from the subject before them. The legal squabbleß between the Provincial Solicitor and Mr Adams were quite excusable, but he would not follow them through their arguments, for he felt quite satisfied that the Council was quite competent to remedy any imperfections there might be in the Bill. Mr Gibbs had stated that it would lead to increased expenditure, but ho should like to ask him how it was that he, the noted apostle of retrenchment, had sat quietly by and allowed tho members and expenses of the Executive department to be increased, why he had allowed so many of them to sit on the Government benches when he himself had assisted in passing the Districts Revenues Bill which took so much from the control of the Executive, and why he now supported tho most expensive government the province ever had. It bad been said that by passing this Bill they would be converting the Superintendent into a mere machine, but he was prepared to guarantee that that they would never make a railway engine of him. The principle of the Bill was that there should be an Execu* tive possessing the confidence of the Council, with whose advice and consent only the administration of provincial affairs should be carried on. The Provincial Solicitor said that nothing of the kind was to be found in tbe Bill, aud in reply he would say that he was eorry to find that he could not have taken the trouble to read it. At present the members of tha Executive were asked to give their advice under most peculiar circumstances, and he felt sure that no legal gentleman would like to be asked for advice on the same terms. If, for instance, he were to go to the Provincial Solicitor for advice and having received it were to treat it as mere chaff, he probably would be told not to come to him again. The Provincial Solicitor was anxious for an expression of opinion out of doors, but he thought the business of the Council was rather to lead than to follow public opinion. The earnest wish of the party who were supporting the Bill was to amend the present state of affairs, but that was impossible under existing circumstances, for the Executive, without knowing anything of the province beyond the town, bad always opposed retrenchment, and appeared to have but one bond of union, namely, to keep everything as it was, their own salaries in particular. At present the Superintendent and his nominees, knowing nothing of the country, were guided entirely by the reports of subordinates iv framing the estimates. What the Constitution Act had to do with the question at issue he knew not. The framers gave us that Act as the germ of our constitution, which it was our business to develope. As for Enrl Grey's despatches they merely afforded a proof of English ignorance of colonial affairs. He thought but little of tbe argument tbat additional permanent officers would be required, for, if placed in proper hands, the government of the province might be carried on by one head and one clerk. Now the superintendence of affairs wbs handed over to others. At One time the Provincial Secretary used to visit the goldfields to see what was wanted, but now the members of the Executive travelled as tourists, and although the expenses of their tour were said to be very small, the whole amount it had cost the people would, if totted up, reach a considerable sum, as banquetß had been given them in various placos for which the people were now very sorry, as in return they found that they had got nothing but the honor of their company. As had been said on tbe Licensing Board here, what was wanting was a " resolute man ;" but failing to get him, they must put something in his place. A thorough chaoge was necessary. They must have no more of the Executive coming down with the Estimates framed without consulting the members for the various districts, and hurrying them through with all the influence they could bring to bear, the result of which was a long list of supplementary voteß, which left the absolute power in the hands of the Superintendent. A loan was talked of, but would they leave the expenditure of it in hands over which they had no control ? If they did, tbe result would be that the money would be wasted, anil if opposition were offered in the Council, another member would be added tb the Executive, and.

his vote aud iufluence bought over as usual. Could the Provincial Secretary state that the £20,000 recently borrowed had been economically aud not wastefully spent? If so he was in a position to contradict him most flatly. The bridges al! over the country, including tbat over the Wairoa, were in a dilapidated condition owing to no precaution having been used in their construction, which had been left to slipper overseers and contractors without superintendence. With a responsible Executive there would be a different state of things, for though the salaries might be small there would always bo those who would be glad to receive them, and they would be ever watchful and ready to point out mistakes. Another matter for consideration was the change that might be made in the Provinces o( Nelson, Marlborough, and Westland, which under proper management might be united, but at present we could scarcely go to our neighbors and say " We are drifting to ruin, come and join us." The present Executive were not wanting in intellect, but were not in a position to show their good qualities. Place them in such a position, and they might frame measures and cany them to a successful issue and get the credit for it. Then they would take some pride in their work. There was not a province in New Zealand with resources superior to our own, but what was the good of them? They were not turned to account, and meanwhile our population was leaving us, while tbe Government were engaged in some childish scheme of special settlements which were to shut our old settlers out in favor of new ones. Tho Council had now an opportunity of raisiug itself in the eyes of the province. Whether the measure before them was a sound one or not they would see in the course of time, but at all events it was an effort in the right direction, and great praise was due to the mover for introducing it. The fact of the bill being incomplete was no objection, as it showed that it waa left to the Council to shape it, and turn it out as their own work. The Provincial Secretary was puzzled by the direction the debate had taken. It was said that the question before the Council was not one of noconfidence, but merely of a change iv the form of government, yet attacks were made upon the Executive, not only for their own actions but the actions of those who had preceded them years before. He should oppose the bill, because he did not consider that responsible government was fitted for so small a body, besides which he looked, upon it as an interference with tho rights of the people by whom the Superintendent was elected to administer their affairs, and the Council to legislate. Yet it was now proposed to place in the hands of perhaps a narrow majority of the Council the power of ignoring their rights, as the Superintendent would be no longer responsible to the people if this bill were carried. It would lead too to great delay in public business, as the Superintendent would not even be able to answer a telegram without consulting tho Executive. Responsible government had already been tried hero and failed, as it had also in Canterbury where the Superintendent and Executive were constantly at loggerheads. The expense of government too would be largely increased as in the event of frequent changes taking place aa most probably they would, there must be a staff of officers of sufficient knowledge and experience to perform tbe departmental work. To make tbe system effective they must have at least two fifths of the Council willing and competent to take office, for it would be no use to turn an Executive out unless they were prepared with another to take their places. The Executive at present felt itself . really responsible to the Council, for they certainly would cease to retain their seats in the event of a no-confidence vote being passed ; but then, instead of the Superintendent going through tho form of sending for one of the members of tbe Council to form a new Executive, he would appoint oue himself. There had been plentiful abuse showered on the heads of the Executive but he had been unable to discover on what it was based. Mr Boase's attack had turned out to be upon the Waste Lands Board and not upon the Government as he had tried to make it appear. And here be (the Provincial Secretary) might say that be had always condemned the action of the General Government in taking the railway from the Brunner mine to Greymouth on the south side of tbe river, which was unfair to the lesees in the district as well as to the provi nee. Mr O'Conor had found fault with the wasting by the Government of £20,000 which had not been spent, and for the construction ofthe Wairoa bridge which was carried out in the time of Mr Saunders. He fully- admitted that our resources were equal to those of any other province but in order to develope them enormous sums of money were required. Our country was very different in its formation to that of other provinces, and it was very difficult indeed with but a small revenue at their disposal to open up the country as it should be, but he could safely say that the Superintendent and Executive had done all they could in tbis direction. Mr Shapter would support the Bill although he did not altogether approve of the drafting of it, but all necessary amendments could be made in Committee. The Provincial Secretary had stated that responsible government would interfere with the rights of the people who elected the Superintendent, but he differed from bim, as the people were at the time of electing him fully j

aware tbat the Council had the pow*>r of defiuing by legislation the duties of tbe Superintendent, It. might be said tbat he had voted against allowing Mr Donne to bring in a Bill, but his reason was that if responsible government alone were wanted it could be obtained just as effectively by resolution. Since then, however, Mr Ivess had brought forward a resolution for placing the delegated powers in the hands of the Executive as well as in tho Superintendent, and he felt that under those circumstances it would be better to have a Bill providing that the Superintendent should act only with the advice and consent of tbe Executive. Mr Maclean would support the Bill but could not give a silent vote, especially as he had been singled out for attack by the compiler, or perhaps he should call him the editor, of tins Evening Mail, on the ground that he had I stated that he had not deemed the J question of responsible government of sufficient importance to make up his mind about it until Mr Sharp had quoted from what the editor termed "some musty old document nearly a quarter of a cenlury old." He repeated then what he had taid on that occasion that it was not uutil Mr Sharp had quoted from Sir G. Grey and Sir J. Pakington's J dispatches that he had found some I standing point on which to take up his \ position, and in questions of this kind such a stand point should be required, find members should not rest satisfied with secondary motives. The Bill before them had been said to be devoid of principle, but if it involved none other than that of giving the power of j bringing about a ready and speedy change of the Government that alone was sufficient in his eyes. The Executive should not be composed of nominees of the Superintendent, but of men having the full vigor of opposition if it were required, and knowing that they had the Council at thoir back. Nothing could be more iojurious to the province than to haye — as thsy would have had by the end of the Superintendent's present term of office — the samo Superintendent and Executive in office for eleven years. The pavement in our streets was not harder than the layer or bed which would be found under them on leaving office. It was for the Council to Bee that this body of concrete was broken up as speedily as possible. Mr Kelling having criticised the remarks of previous speakers, said that he should oppose the bill, as he could not bring himself to believe that responsible government would practically work well. The Provincial Treasurer would vote for the second reading of the bill, aB he bad always been in favor of responsible government. He had voted against Mr Donne's resolution the other night because he thought it might be desirable to wait a little longer, but tbe Council having affirmed the principle of responsible government he was quite prepared to support the bill. He might say thnt he Jand Mr Sbapter voted as they did without the slightest ill-feeling towards the Provincial Solicitor and Provincial Secretary, as it had always been understood that the question of responsible government was to be an open one. Mr Ivess hoped that with the passing of this bill they were about to

desert the old order of things, and to enter upon a field of change and progress. He complained of the neglect of his district by the Government who, had he been an obedient and humble supporter of theirs, would probably have looked after it better. He could readily understand why some of the members of the Executive opposed responsibility, as it would place them in a very different position to that which they now occupied, and would put an end to the power they had hitherto had of taunting and snubbing the Council. Mr. Donne would support the Bill. He must Bay that he was inclined to lose faith in human nature when he found Mr. Shapter, who - opposed and quoted the Constitution Act against responsible government the other night, supporting it on the present- occasion. Something might be said in favor of Mr Shephard voting for it, as he had advocated it before, but still he could not forget that when the Act of 1870, under which that geutleman took office, was repealed he was still satisfied to retain his seat under tbe hew order of things and was now again to be found on the Government benches. ' It was somewhat strange tbat now when they found that this measure would be carried irrespectively of their support they should be votiag for it. Mr Kerr complained of the manner in which money was being spent on the Buller and Hope roads, as the work done was not worth a farthing to the province. It waa the same at Tar nd ale, too, where the men were sent out, but did no work at all. He reported this to the superintendent of works in Nelson, and told him not to pay them because no work was done, and that was the reason why he should support the Bill, because not one member of the Executive kne?7 anything about his business. ft was the same complaint whichever way you entered the province. If you came by steamer you would hear the captain asking what the deuce they stuck the bell buoy right in the entrance for, and if you came from Chriatchurch you saw nothing but wretched bungling in the road making. He was quite satis-? fled that a change was required, there was no fear of ihe present Superintendent ever coming to a deadlock with the Executive, for lie would never say no if they said yes and he saw that they meant it. He would be only too glad if the Superintendent was a man to act thus. He had no more to say, for after all it was like pouring water on a drowned rat. Mr Adams having briefly replied, a division was taken with the following result: — Ayes, 15: The Provincial Treasurer, Messrs Corbett, Boase, Ivess, Maguire, Donne, Rout, Adams, Shapter, Sharp, o,Conor, Maclean, Baigent> Kerr, and Parker. Noes, 6: The Provincial Solicitor, Provincial Secretary, Messrs Wastney, Tartant, Gibbs, and Kelling, -'" "''.'' ■'■" ' ''* — '-»