REPEAL OF THE EXECUTIVE ACT.

Nelson Evening Mail, Volume IX, Issue 114, 14 May 1874, Page 2

REPEAL OF THE EXECUTIVE ACT.

Tuesday, M y 12. Mr. Donnb m. ved in ilia Council, "That in order to restore the efficiency of the Nelson Provincial Council as » representative institution, it is the opinion of this Council • The 1 xecutive Government Act, 1871,' v der which certain members of this Council hold office, should bs repealed and other provisions made in lieu thereof, and that leave be piv n the mover to introduce a Bill to give effect to that obj ct." He had bo intention when he came up to the cession of moving such a resolution, and he was awaro that there was great speculation as to the meaning of it. Some looked upon it as a no-confi ience motion, but nothing, was further from . his thoughts, the Council in the late' session having expressed itself as adverse to such a resolution. It would be observed that his desire was to restore the efficiency of the Provincial Council, and the resolution set out with the ns umption that at present it was not so efficient as it might be. Jn 1853 .an Executive Ordinance was passed, and at that time two offices were held by gentlemen who, together with the Superintendent, formed the ifxecutire In 1856 a Provincial Secretary was provided for, who was to hold office at the pleasure of the Superintendent, and to be ex officio a member of the Executive. The great mistake that had been made was in having certain members of the Council holding positions ns raid officers of the Government, and what he now particularly desired was to make the Superintendent ma nly, if not absolutely, responsible for the administration of the affiirs of the province. At pre ent it was exceedingly difficult to know who was responsible and to whom, for if the Superintendent were asked a question 'he replied that the matter would be laid I efore the Executive, and it was quite in possible to learn what transpired there. Prior to 1870,' it was provided that it should be the duty of the Executive to advise the Superintendent on all question?, but when a new Act was brought in it was provided that the Superintendent should have a deliberative as well as a casting vote From that he inferred that something more than advice was required from the Executive, and that their assent was implied. If so they should also be responsible. But last fessiou the Council had decided against responsible government, so that now they had four persons forming an Executive and receiving public money, who had the power to destroy, and did destroy, the valuable influence that should be possessed by the Council as a representative body. He proposed to do away with the existing state of things, aud to make the Superintendent solely responsible, and do away with the Executive altogether, for under the existing arrangement the Council weakened itself, and strengthened the Superintendent to such an extent that it was extremely difficult to get at him. The Bill he propose Ito introduce was to the following eflect : — The title was the Nelson Provincial Administration Act. By clauses 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10. and 11 respectively, \ it was proposed to confer certain p wers and ; impose certain duties upon the Superintendent of the province. By clau eU the privilege was given of petitioning the Provincial Council should any person fed aggrieved by his suspension or removal from office: and by clause 13 it was sought to prevent any member of the Council from holding any office of emolument under the Provincial Government, the practical effect of this would be that the paid and permanent offices cf the Provincial Treasurer and Secretary, which might be held by one and the game person if thought fir, would require to be held by gentlemen outside the walls of the Council. There was a provision also made for an Executive Council of not more than four persons, whose duty it should be to advise the Superintendent upon all matters which might be by him referred to it for consideration, the reason of introducing this clause being to more pnr ticularly provide for those cases in which Provincial and General legislation had said that certain matters shall be done with the advice o f , or with the advice and coment of, the Superintendent and Executive. He hop? d that the question would be fully diecusssed, and not meet the fate tha. attended Mr Guinness* resolution last session. It was full of difficulties, but be felt satisfied that something of the kind was required. Mr W-aspnet seconded the resolution, as he felt convinced that some step was necefsiry to reduce the present expenditure. With the revenue and population both falling, it was time that the Council stepped in and put a stop to all extravagant expenditure. 1 here was a proposed increaee of £600 this year in the Executive Department, and this was certainly a step in the wrong direction, and unless they took the bull by the horns at once there was no knowing where it would all end. Some change was necessary to facilitate public business, and to enable people to get answers to their questions at the Government offices instead of being continually put off. Under the present circumstances he was reminded of a cartoon which appeared in Punch come years ago, where an old soldier who had fought at Delhi, was represented as applying for his pension. He could get no reply, and in despair exclaimed to the official " Tell me, when shall I call again, shall it be in a year?" Ihe reply was " Yea, come this time next year, and I will tell you then when to call again." This -was the state of things in the Government offices, and it was time to put a stop to it. Mr Aoton Adah* proposed as an amendment to strike but all the words after the word " thereof." He did so because he wished to sre the .question discussed on broader grounds than would be the case did it refer only to the Bill referred to by Mr Donne. That provided lor a particular way of filling vacancies, and on that head there might ' be a difference of opinion. He looked ' upon the present constitution of the Executive as most unsatisfactory, and wished to elicit the views of the .Council on the actions of the Executive as a whole, and to ascertain whether they did not agree with him that the whole apple was rotten to the core. No particular Independent power was given to the Superintendent by the Constitution Act, but he and the Provincial Council together were looked upon ' as one harmonious whole. .Owing . to the altered circumstances of the colony it had become impossible to call the Council together oftener than once a year, but it was evidently anticipated by the framers oi the Act that the mombers would be living within easy distance of the Superintendent so as to admit of their being frequently called together and consulted. In order to provide for the altered circumstances, each province had decided upon appointing an Executive Council which, be it remembered, was nothing more than a pure creation of the Provincial Council, and was intended to act as a medium of communication between it and the Superintendent so that through them he might explain his policy in as plain a way as poßsib'e If the Superintendent weie merely assisted by clerks there would be no bond of communication between him and the Council and it would be utterly impossible to carry on the business. If then, such o body as the Executive = were to be elected, it was but right that that body should be responsible to .the Council which created it. If the Executive were not responsible to them they would actually have no say whatever in the framing of tho estimates and if they had not this, even indirectly, they were simply dummies without any power what» ever. They ought to get rid of any necessity for supplementary estimates, and see the road clear before them for discussing the. expenditure. Other provinces had adopted respouqitye government, and see the progress they bad made. It might be said that" this was

owing to their superior natural resources, but this was only half the truth, and he felt convinced that had we. adopted a similar system earlier we should row be iv a more thriving condition. In Otago, Canterbury, and Wellington, thero weie larger populations and revenues, and yet they had adopted this system of administration. Why tlun should we rot follow thrir exarop'e? It was som. - times argued that responbibla government would lead to freq >ent changes and struggles for otfee but tb> ha thought was nn in<ult to the good b( nse oi: our public - men who were not so base and reg r.Jlesa of all public decency. It might be raid ''tint the Superintendent was responsible to the people. but what did that responsibility amount to ? All they could do was to go before excited publio meetings at election time and point out where he had committed errors of judgment or been guilty of negligence That was d fferent to exposing their o| inioa calmly in that Hall where they hai books and papers before them to which they could refer to sheet home charge? of negligence. Besides, at the end of the Superintendent's term of office it miglit.be too late, as in that time the province might have been h >lf ruined. He did not ogree with the mover of the resolution, but looked upon this es a pure question of adruinistiation, and what they wanted was an active, energetic, threwd, and thrifty administration. He did not wish to remark upon the bad ud ministration of the present Government, but he might mention the non-attention to the wishes of the Council, thed.Uy which had occurred in providing for local a 1 ministration on the goldfitlds, and the general feeling of dissatisfaction that prevailed thereon. Had' the Executive been responsible they would not have heard of these complaints; they would nat have had to find fault with an exorbitant price having been given for land for gaswoiks; of tlie Hope road havine: been trade by day work under the superintendence of Mr Kny vett, who could not have had much experience in such work; nor of £30 being given for the valuation of the Brunner Mine stock. He did not wish to reflect upon the administration of the present Executive, but he advocated a'cha'ge in the principle on which our Government was formed. We must not have an Executive who received our money as salaries and then laughed at our wisher. Mrlvjiss seconded the amendment. He had stated la?t session that be had confidence in the present Executive, and he still had the same feeling towards them, but thought they were too slow and wanted the Bpur. The four of them were closely welded together, and by showing favoritism to one or two districts they could aecur« the support of the representatives of those districts and their friends, and so refy the Council. Considering the state of the revenue he thought the staff was top large, and he thought it would be to their own advantage to be made responsible to the Council. Mr Shaptek could not see that the mover of the resolution had m-»de out auy case at all, nor did he attach much importance to Mr Waetney's chief argument which was to reduce the exprnditure upon the Executive department. He did not see how it was possible to do it, or at least not beyond what might be done in considering the estimates. They must have a Provincial Secretary, and It was not likely that they could secure one as capable as Mr G'eenffeld at a lower salary. They murt have a Treasurer, or if it was fought to abolish the office it might be done when in Committee on the Estimates without bringing forward Buch a resolution as that before them. If they did away wilh the office of Provincial Solicitor they would have to pay more than his salary in the shape of lees. Responsible government secmeJ to ba wonted, but who was to be responsible? Borne say, make the Superintendent so, and abolish the Executive ; others wish the r xecutive to be responsible-, but to a great extent they were so already. They might ba turned t out by stoppirg supplies, or he believed that every one of them would resign upon a direct vote of want of confi ence. But, after all, tlie main Executive power lay with the Superin teudent. He had the power of vetoing the wishes of the Executive, the appointment of them rested with him, and to him they should be responsible, while he should be responsible to the people. By turning out the Executive they would destroy only one-half of the Executive power. It was different in the Gene- j ral Assembly. There the real Executive power was in the Ministry, who, as they bhould be, were responsible to the House. It was different in the Provincial Governments. The Superintendent was the real Executive officer. He had the power to refuse his nssont to laws, and by no Ordinance they could ever pass could they reach the real power, as was the case in the General Assembly, lie could not see whst was to be gained by upsetting the Act of 1871, which provided for all the Council could wieh for. Mr Boasb did not see that responsible government would do either much harm or much good. Our great trouble was, not .bad ada inistration, not the want of a responsible Executive, but the want of funds. Mr Kellihg would oppose the resolution, because he did not be'ieve that the country was anxious for responsible Government, nor did he think that it would do us much good if adopted. The Provincial Solicitor would oppose the resolution, which seemed to involve two questions. The mover advocated that there should be no paid Executive in the Council, while others thought there should be, but ' hat they should be responsible to the Council. Mr Adams had taken the latter view, but what reasons had he given to show the necessity for such a change, seeing that it was only three months ago that the Council had decided against it by a large majority, and three years ago had done the same. Mr VVastney supported the resolution on the score of economy, rut it should be remembered that in the very last session the Council negatived Mr Ivess' resolution for amalgamating the offices of Secretary and Treasurer by 16 to 2. It was quite competent for members to deal with these matters in Committee on the Estimates. They were always fighting these questions, and always with the same result, and he wished to call the serious attention of the Council to this habit of re-discussing sulgects upon which they had only recently expressed a deliberate opinion. Mr Ivess = remarked that the members were . so . welded together that by making promises they could always ensure a majority in the Council. If this were so, might it not be just the same with a responsible Executive. He did not see what «ras to te gained by passing snch a measure as that advocated by Mr Adams. Mr. Pabjcer would support the motion, as he hoped it might have.the effect of reducing the expenditure. He did not complain individually ol the members of the Executive,' but he, did of their number. If there were only two, the Government would not have so many votes in .the Council, whereas now, by r voting in a block, and wilh the aid of their friends, they could carry anything. There was not .another, legislative assembly in the British dominions that contained so large a propor- • tion of paid officers. Jn 1856 there were only two paid members of the Executive, and the expenditure on that department was only 12 per cent, of the revenue, whereas now jt was .80 per cent , thiß year being £600 more than last. As it was, the Council really had no voice ia controlling public affairs. They came there aa dummies, the Estimates were put before them, and having passed them they wero told they might' go; The Government might just as well send a copy of the Estimates to each member and ask him to sign them. If the resolution were passed it would have the effect of reducing : the expenditure, and the more that was done, the greater

would t c the satisfaction of the Council and sho people at large. Mr. Gibbs would vote against responsible government. He had always thought that the Supesintendent should be responsible. He would rather tay that they did not wnnt an Executive. Eh was in favour of the consolidation of the offices of Treasurer and Secretary, whii.h had been tried before and found to work well. Mr Kbbb would support the resolution becamehe locked upon it tbat the Superintendent had no will of his own but left evtr}thit g to the Executive. Ho never went about to seetho roads and bridges, and if hs did, would very likely not know whether he was standing on a road or a bri'ge. He. thought that rcany p:irts of the country which were thin'y populated were altogether neglected in favor of tbo-c which posse* aed a larger number of voters. He should like to see a responsible Executive, because then the money would 'not be taken from one part of the province to be Bpeit in another. «lr Wasinet wiehed to state that in supporting the resolution he had no intention ot voting for responsible Government, to which he was altogether opposed. Mr Fuephakd thought he should not be acting with cue respect to those who had taken part in the debate if he did not give his reasons for the vote he was about to record. In 1870 un Act providing for semi-responsi-bility waa passed, which in 1871 was repealed by the casting vote of the Speaker. This went on (or three yrara, and in bis electioneering spcecluß the Superintendent had paid that he proposed making considerable changes in the Executive. 'I lie Council met and in its late session decided »gainst responsible Government, and he thought it was unwhe to be making constant atte i pts to change the form of {iovernraent. If they, obtained the proposed loan and public works were undertaken, and it could be shown thai the Executive were not doing their duty, there would be fnir ground for making them responsible to the Council, so that pressure might be brought to brar upon them. For the consistency of the Council he hoped they would vote against the resolution for the present. It was simply a question of theory, ami there was no reaf on to believe that iuciensed efficiency or economy would bs secured by carrying it. Mr Setabp would support the amendment. He hoped the Executive would not treat t\xu reioluiion as nimed at them, for if he thought it were he should oppose it. It was not a question of confidence or no confidence, but of tl;e most desirable form of Government. He believed that responsibility was necessary, particularly if they obtained the loan. There was clearly a defect in the Constitution Act for it certainly was intendel that the Superintendent should be responsible, but he did not see how he wbs to be made so. If the -upcrinteudent were really responsible he should have iho power to dissolve the Coucil in the event of thtir disnpprovingof his policy, and if the electors decided in favor of their members, he should go out of office. He thought a great mistake had been made in the last election in issuing the writs for members rf Council first as it placed both the Superintendent and the members in a false position, but he did not blame the Returning Officer for this as he waß only acting under ins ructions, lie hoped the Ixecutive would show Eome sympathy with this question of responsibility, f.r, failing to gtt it in the Superintendent they were compelled to fall back on the Executive. He fully believed that it was intended by the House of Government in li tuning the Constitution Act. [In proof of this assertion, Mr Miarp read extracts from the despatches of Pir Gecrge Grey, and Sir J. Pokington, the then Secretary of State for the Colonies.] Probably, as had been snid by Mr Sliapter, iho Executive might resign in the event of a no confidence vote being agreed 10, but it would only be from courtesy, whereas be thought the Council should have the power of compelling them to do so. They had said what they would do if a hostile vote were agreed to l>y ths Council, but they had not told them what course they would pursue in the event of their. wishes being vetoed by the Superintendent. The Provincial Seobbtabt felt in an awkard position ia having to reply to two resolutions, as it were, at tbe same time, one of them advocating that there Bhould be no Executive at all, and the other that it should be made responsible. The first ha thought wculd meet with vtry littlo support, as it would be impossible to carry on tiie public business unless the Government were represented in the Council, where miestatemeuts

■■• -. '" T. \ : " were frequently made which required contra* diction or explanation; The amendment evidently aimea at lespbnsible government, and in moving it Mr Adams had aade a most inconsistent speech, f-r he had argued that the Conrcil and Superintendent snoald be brought together as one harmonious whole, while the effect of responsible government would be to put them aa far apart as possible. Ibis had been shown in the other provinces, lor it had turned out that wherever the Executive was responsible to the Council it was alwaya at issue with tlie Superintendent. It had been stated that there was responsible government in Wellington but an extract he would read from a speech of Mr Fitzherberr, the Superintendent -of Wellington.— wonld sec them right on that head. [Extract read .1 Mr Adams hsd paid that the prepress of other provinces wag owing to their having adopted responsible government and that they could boast or large populations, and and large revenues, but it was, ho believed, owing to this fact that responsible government had answered tbere. It had been tried here and failed. He had dated thnt he had no intention of being hostile to the Executive and had immediately proceeded to make attacks upon them, and with exceedingly bad taste had referred by name to a connection of his (the Provincial Secretary's) in fefcreuce to tbe Hope load, a work with which the Government had nothing whatever to do, -it being entirely in the hands of tiw local, Road Board. He wished before sitting, down to correct a misstatement made by Mr. Parker, . who had snid that the expenditure, upon ; the Executive department was SOptr cent of the totU revenue, whereas it did not exceed ,SJ per cent. ,"'../■■ Mr Tabrant would vote against the resolution because he bad riot yet heard any gcod reeson for repealing the existing Act. , It the Executive refused to retign on a no-confid nee vote being passed on really good grounds, then he should vote for responsibility, but, as it was, he was averse to these constant attempts at bringing about a change. . Mr Maclean said that up to a very late j.eriod of the debate he had Borne difficulty in deciding whether the question was one of sufficient importance to induce him to take the trouble of making, up his mind :to vote upon it at all, and it was not until Mr Sharp had quoted from the despatches of Sir George Grey and fcir~J; Pakington that he became clear that it was now .only cought to induce them to take up a position that was evidently intended by the Constitution .Act. If the (superintendent was a man of ability and force of character, the question would most likely never have arisen, out, as it was, there was undoubtedly a strong, desire .tbat feme change should take place, so as to 'make the htad more rctive, and to show -more power and vigor. It was lar better that the Executive should go to the Superintendent as the delegates of the Council than that they should come down to them as his nominees. The sense of responsibility would give them more power, and ambitious men would prefer to hold otflce under such terms. The matter had assumed more importance in bis eyes since listening to the debate, and he should vote ior the amendment, not bb a slight upiin the present Executf vp, for he did not see where they could get a better, but because by accepting responsioility they would improve their position. The amendment having been put and carried on the voices, Mr Donmk replied, arid in doing so said tbat he had a very strong objection to- four paid nominees of the Superintendent holding seats in ihe Council. ' ; . : • The resolution was then put to the vote, and the following was the result:— Ayes. 12: Messrs Gibbs, tfonsei Kerr, Parker, itout, Donne, Baigent, Adaon, Ivess, Maclean, Wastney. Sharp. Noes, 8 : The Provincial Treasurer, Provincial Secretary, Provincial Solicitor, Messrs Tarrant> Ke ling, Maguire, Shapter, Cjrbett.