THE LOAN BILL.

Mt Benger Mail, Volume 17, Issue 854, 5 September 1896, Page 4

THE LOAN BILL.

[Float the Stab a Parliamentary Reporter ] .• J WELLINGTON, Atrocsr 27. - JlrltaftsaNGßY Mid that he had not yet; In— aHn ti dkoover what this potocy Bill " There wm not the slightest indiMliai hMfrt'Bil what the intentions of tfce4fr«waßWt. aattarTO. They merely f ■pet ii qaix i ifllj nf Vnnr" —"p- j for eerIsiii iwrpnti without giving particulars of tINJMnaM hs which it? wm to be expended.: He thought that before the Government deiiMtwlihw*' Hit non-borrowing, seU reliant policy tewfcMfthtyfcad fledged themselvea at the Ocetgal i nnn nptm which they had been elected, they ehoold again go to the people. ff« hsri hnan nlw.tfd pledged to non-Dorrowing, f and .even Govern-, ment did depart from their pledgee he would not'depart from his » Thatwas his chief reaion lor.voting againat the Bill. Mr G. Hutchison said of course the Bill wM& fP"r hr FtfbttiTWorks servioe would be paralysed, and this in the face oitfce GoveramesVe boast/of their strong finance. It wm ootjimentory on the policy of the Government, and one which would no doubt ha rdoly. noted during the-, aftxt>- few / months. The Ministry had eseapeis many perils that would have wrecked better men. Of the money to baeaisad for goldfields, and this was ptepooe& fay the mea»er for We3ttond and the paid agent of a foreign gold mining syndifljtfli He thought' that common deoency .should have prevented the- Premier from bringing down such a proposal. This vote , we#-not. for the purposes of advancing settlement or the interests of the colony, bat ier the benefit of speculating The House was- alio asked to vol# £250,000 for railways and rbsids- and bridges, but no ind*eat|e» WW given af to the particular works to beeatfjedr en. It was a complete *JMtery«to bi»J* that the Premier had been afak to N: portion so long. Mr .Seddon,,h%d dragged down policies in New ta a depth never before touched in any British colony, the nearest analogy bewg;America, where respectable people had deMßid to take part in politics. Gaptiin Russell referred to the injury oagfeei Id the colony by continual borrowing for yeaca pakt. If 3 had been reminded by Mr 'Mtbaohlan ef- a speech he mode twenty yearn age advocating that twenty millions of Money be .borrowed to assist settlers. There waaa great difference between a young politacian advocating this in a small place and doing sfrintheHouse. He held there was no occasionfor constant borrowing for the purchase of Native lands, its thousands of acrM already aoqutrad.i»ere absolutely lying idle. As for this Bill, be would vote against ital together. The position now was that imieaadn Government gotautbority toiaise this money they would be unable to meet the engagements they bad-entered into, and he hoped the J } reinier r wpuld tell the House whether or hot he could carry on without this Bill. They had been-ftteadilv working toa deficit all the time thejGovernment had been in offipe, as. the whole of their finance had broken down, the Public. Works Fund had disappeared, and they were now compelled to raise this, loan to carry on with. He regarded this Bill as most objectionable in every way. It shonld be styled the New Zealand Lb&n Act, and he failed to see why it should be treated differently from other borrowing Bills. This Bill was the most, flagratjt attempt to bribe the constituencies that he had ever heard of, as it* allowed the Premier to. spend money wherever he pleased and how Ire pleased. He asked why they should 'borrow .£200,000 for goldfields, and held that English capital was pouring into the colony. There was no necessity for taxing the whole of the people of the coloßy for this goldfields expenditure. He again stated it to be a most improper position for the Premier to be agent of the AngloGenaan Syndicate, ana said his appointment was due .to his being Premier of the colony, and not because he was Richard Seddon. It .waa positively absurd, in bis opinion, that £200,000 should be spent on gel4BeUU<whee only £30,000 more was to be devoted to the whole oft he railways inthe oolony. He changed the Government with hatogg exhausted every possible form of booowiag in the past, and they had now to borrow openly only to construct pafatie tworka, at the same rate as they had been progressing. Their only chance te improve this BUI waa to reject it altogether, and the Government might bring down another Bill properly scheduled, so that the colony might sea what the Government were going to do and upon what principle they actecL It was useless to sappos*they oould amend this Bill in oommiWeeas it »o w stood. It was said they must go ob borrowing, bat he pointed out that tto oniony had borrowed since 1870 no less than for which .mormons interest was paid* amounting to £.34,535,000, during the time the public works policy was in existence. They were leaving posterity anenoiMoaa debt, which was constantly increasing, and they were plunging into a system of Wowing which was absolutely reck, less. If the Premier, had a majority in the next, Parliament (which Heaven forbid), he wonldbe able to hand over the money proposed to be borrowed in any way be pleased, and the Hoase should not place him in that position. MeFnA&tft was perfectly well aware that pablie works could not be carried on withost He- waa also prepared to admit are could not stop oht public works,

a*| therefore there was a necessity for a Btiletthia&nd. Ho should, however, not support tii* Bill, not beeapse it was a borrowing measure, .bat. in consequence of tin sojfeednlef to the Bill, which he regarded aa giving the Government a blank cheque to fill in aft they pleased, i He condemned placing the Midland ( Railway in the SbhediUe, and said ifc was never authorised hy the House, and no lines not authorised forthe-lastfew years should be put in the sehedaleu WELLINGTON, Acauwr 28. The Minister o*' Lands inquired whether it was possible for the colony to go on without a loan. He held it was not, but asserted that theGovernmenthadenoughfunds to carry on the engagements they had entered on. He 1 denied that they had departed from , the policy of Mr BaUance, and warned the Of post Won that they must feed Mr M'Guire wall with raadftand bridges, otherwise they cdoldf net retain, bis support. If Mr Ballance were amongst them to-day he would have to take things aa he found them, and would have toga in for this loan. He asked wfcsfchfitf. the House was prepared to say that there should be no wore loans. Mem- .. bers could not say they were prepared to open ujp Ahe country by taxation alone, and they • would be compelled to negotiate for a loan. Ike people had a right to have some say ia the matter, and he weald like to know how many members weald declare that there pbMtf This question w**of ao>muob important* that the Government wouJ4 not take the. deoision. of the. Hoxeeifleifc They were prepared to go to thftipeeplft and get theirverdict. If memben jwjected thia Bill they would have to faoejhajnnsie. If the Opposition came on tetbft Treasury benches .the first thing tbey would have te, propose woold be* loan. If thfroektiy had to traat to local bodies to do the werk of settlement that work would not be done, because local bodies had not the means to do it. He asked the Bouse if• they , were prepared to go to the oonntry and advocate that roads be made by the local bodies. Bub tbey were not pre-

pared to takp that course. . They were told they should not purchase more Native lands, but if they dtd not do so they would have to repeal the Uw which provided that Natives could only sell to the Government. The House had /oil control of the expeditnre, despite What Sir R. Stout said * and rttorns were furnished by the Government, and the Lands Department furnished every detail of every road constructed by the Government It was no use members stating that they were against a borrowing policy whilst they expected roads to be opened up for settlement. Mr Saunders twitted the Minister of Lands with now supporting absolutely a different policy from tnat advocated by Mr Balfance. Be considered that no reason had been shown for this change. He did not, however, think Mr M'Kenzie could be held primarily responsible for this great change, which' had been brought about by the Premier and the late Treasurer.' They were how asked to commit the colony not to a million of money but to five millions, and he (Mr Saunders) considered there had never been such a complete reversal of policy as was now advocated by this Bill, 'the Bill meant an absolute abandonment by the House of all its powers. It gave the Premier power to raise this money absolutely as he pleased. He. condemned the proposal for spending £200,000 on the goldfields, and Baia that since a borrowing policy had been instituted no les3 than £900,000 had been spent on water races and other matters on goldfields which did not pay a single penny in return for this enormous expenditure. The colony would have been better off if it had not borrowed any money at all, and having to pay £4,500 a' day for interest was:, a fearful drain on the people. They had done far worse with the money they had borrowed than if they had expended it on war. The colony would never get rid of the debt piled on by successive Governments. The Bill should be termed a Bill to ensure reckless expenditure by the Government without any control by the representatives of the people. As for his . own position, he should have no difficulty in meeting his constituents and telling them he had supported the policy he wis elected to support, but he should be ashamed to follow the Government when they borrowed in the extravagant manner laid down by this Bill. The Hon. J. G. Ward pointed out that Canterbury had not fared badly by the Government policy. He denied that borrowing this million meant a charge of £IOO a day for interest. The more people who arrived in the colony the less the amount of interest would be. He asked those who opposed this Bill whether they were prepared to stop the roading of lands, the extension of important railways, the acquisition of Native lands and of private estates. He thought not; yet it was impossible to accomplish those objects without money. Every Government would abstaip from borrowing as long as they could, but when it was forced on them they must keep pace with the requirements of the' cfolony. He defended the appointment of the new Auditor-General, and said that the salary of £I,OOO a year was not too much for a man who controlled the expenditure Of four millions a year. If they decreased the earning power of the Civil servants they would decrease the earning power of those who were not Civil servants, and that was a most undesirable thing to do. The real issue was whether the country was to be progressive or retrogressive, and if the Opposition came into office they could not possibly carry on without a loan—a loan such as was proposed by this Bill. Mr Piram was opposed root and branch to the loan proposals. The fact that the finance of the Government had got into so hopeless a position as indicated by the Bill and the speeches of Ministers was, in bis opinion, quite sufficient reason for Ministers going to the country before raising the loan. If these borrowing proposals were referred to the country he had no fear of the result. The people would declare against the proposed addition to the public debt and taxa- | tion of the country.

Mr J. W. Kelly congratulated Mr Morrison on hia speech, but thought he had forgotten the speech he had delivered at Caversham in which he stated, that a blow had been struck at borrowing. He had also been strongly opposed to Mr Ward's borrowing. The Minister of Lands had twitted members with being opposed to borrowing. He challenged the Government to go to the country on this policy. His opinion was that it many more millions were added to the debt of the colony it simply meant repudiation. He did not think, it possible to raise a large sum of money within the colony, and would oppose the second reading of the Bill.

Mr M'Nab said he must vote against the Bill in fulfilment of 'his election pledges. The country should have been consulted before this serious change in policy was entered upon.

The Pkbmier rose to reply at 3 30 a.m. He said that the debate had been one of the hollowesb shams he had ever known. It was simply another device of the Opposition to address the constituencies. There was no reason for the protracted debate, and the speochee were simply repetitions of those given on the' Financial Statement and in the no-con6denoe debate. It was a question now whether they were to have a progressive policy or a period of stagnation. The Government could not go on for another year without assistance to carry on public works. He did not want those weak-kneed supporters, who had shown tbeir true oolors in this debate, and he wished that they would declaro themselves in Opposition and leave the Liberal party. The attitude they had taken up was not just or fair to the Government, who were doing their duty to the colony. Nor was it fair to the Opposition party. He pointed out that several of the members who were strongly opposing this Bill had voted for similar measures in past sessions, among the number being the Land for Settlements Biil, the Consols Bill, the Advances to Settlers Bill, and the L<uid Improvement Bill. This allowed grave inconsistency on the part of these members, and raised a question whether they bad always been so anxious to conserve their election pledges. The Government had great cause for complaint on account of the actions of these members. He contended that the Government could not stop the public works that were now going on, for it meant throw* ing large numbers of men out of employment in<a bad season ; and he was sure that the country would not countenance this. No doubt SHch a proceeding would suit the Opposition members, for the unemployed would then be available to do their bush* felling and other works at a cheap rate of wagee. The position of the colony warranted the Government in asking this money, for our assets were very largely in excess of oar liabilities. Mr George Hutchison had asked why the Liberal party and the Premier had been allowed to reign so long in New Zealand, but, in reply, he would ask why the Creator had allowed snakes, toads, and centipedes to encumber the earth. He defended the late Mr Ballance from tha aspersions cast on his policy and administration, and, in conclusion, said that the people would recognise the services of the Liberal Government and return them to power at the approaching General Election. On a division the second reading was carried by 32 to 19, and the committal of the Bill set down for next sitting. The following ww the division list

Ayes 32) Noes (19). Messrs Buddo Messrs Allen Buick -- Bell Cadman Button Cornell ~ Crowther Carroll Karnshaw ; Collins Fraser j : Flatinan Green Graham Heke Guinness Lang Hall Maslin Hall-Jones Massey Harris M'Guire Hogg M'Nab Joyce Mitchelson Lawry Montgomery M'Gowan Russell, W. R. M'Kenzie, J. Smith, G. J. ! • . M'Kenzie, li. Tanner M'Jtfchlpn • Wilson. Millar •• Mills . •' Morrison ] ■ r O'Regan . Peie Pinkerton Russell, G. W. Seddon 5" > Smith, E. M. Steward Thompson, T. Ward i . Willis. Pairs. Ayes.—Messrs Parata, Mackintosh, Houston, Duncan, Larhach, R. Thompson, Stevens, Camcross, W. Hutchison, W. Kelly. Noes.—Messrs Te Ao, Meredith, Buchanan, Lewis, Stout, Saunders, Pi rani, J. W. Kelly, Duthie, G. Hutchison. WELLINGTON, August 29.

No sooner did the Aid to Public Works and Land Settlement Bill reach the committee stage in the House yesterday afternoon than an attack by its opponents was initiated by Mr Mitchelson, who moved to amend its title to "The New Zealand Loan Act, 1896," which, he said, more aptly described its purpose.. Several other suggestions were offered, and it was manifest that a large number of members recognised that, whatever the title might be, open borrowing to the extent of a million was intended. Replying to the Premier's remark that the Government were not departing from a non-borrowing policy, but only raising money for specific purposes, and that aid was required for the development of the neglected mining industry, Stonewalling tactics were undisguisedly resorted to by the opponents of the Bill, and no progress had been made when Mr Guinness left the chair for the dinner adjournment. On resuming at half-past seven a division was at once taken, the amendment being negatived by 28 to 24. The division-list was as follows Ayes (24).—Messrs Allen, Carncro3s, Crowther, Dutliie, Karnshaw, Fraser, Green, Heke, W. Hutchison, J. W. Kelly, Lang, Lewis, Maslin, Massey, M'Guire, Mitchelson, Montgomery, Newman, Pirani, W. R. Russell, Saunders, G. J. Smith, Stout, Wilson. Noes (28).—Messrs Buddo, Collins, Flatman, Graham, Hall-Jones, Harris, Hogg, W. Hutchison, Joyce, W. Kelly, Lawry, M'Gowan, J. M'Kenzie, R. M'Kenzie, M'Lachlan, M'Nab, Millar, Morrison, O'Regan, Pinkerton, G. W. Russell, Seddou, E. M. Smith, Stevens, It. Thompson, T. Thompson, Ward, Willis. Pairs.—Ayes: Te Ao, Buchanan, Tanner, T. Mackenzie, Bell, Button; Noes: Parata, Lhincan, Carncll. Cadman, Buick, Carroll. At clause 2 (empowering the Treasurer to raise £1,000,000), Captain Russell moved to put the words "borrow and" immediately before the word " raise," so as to make it clear that the proposal w<ffl one to borrow.—This, after a brief debate, was negatived by 32 to 25. Mr G. J. Smith next moved to reduce the amount of the proposed loan to half a million. He thought this amount sufficient for one year, especially on the eve of a general election.—The Premier said that the amount asked for was necessary if the Government were to do justice to the people and the country. A lengthy discussion, extending over the supper adjournment, followed. At midnight the division was taken, and the amendment negatived by 31 to 23. The division-list was as follows:

For the Amendment (23).—Messrs Allen, Bell, Buddo, Duthie, Earnshaw, Fraser, Heke, W. Hutchison, J. W. Kelly, Lang, Lewis, Maslin, Massey, M'Nab, Mitchelson, Montgomery Newman, I'irani, W. 11. Russell, G. J. Smith, Stout, Tanner, Wilson. Against the Amendment (31).—Messrs Buick, Cadman, Carncross, Carnell, Carroll, Collins, Crowther, Hat man, Hall, Hall-Jones, Harris, Hogg. Joyce, W. Kelly, Lawry. M'Gowan, J. M Kenzie, R. M Kenzie, M'Lacnlan, Millar, Mills, Morrison, o'Regan, Pinkerton, Seddon, K. M. Smith, Stevens, Steward, Thompson, Ward.

Pairs.—For the amendment: Messrs Te Ao, Buchanan, Button, M'Guire, T. Mackenzie, Green, G. Hutchison. Against the amendment: Messrs Parata, Duncan, G. W. Russell, Larnach, Houston, Graham, Willis.

Mr M'Lachlan then moved to reduce the amount of the loan to £750,000. This was lost by 30 to 21. Mr Montgomery moved to add to the clause the following proviso:—"That the time for Buch repayment shall not exceed twenty-five years from the date of issue of such debentures or stock."—After discussion this was carried by 30 to 2> For the Amendment (30).—Messrs Allen, Bell, Buddo, Buick, Carncross, Collins, Crowther, Duthie, Earnshiw, Fraser, Heke, J. W. Kelly, Lao?, Lewis, T. Mackenzie, Maslin, Massey, M'Nab, Mitchelson, Montgomery, Newman, Pirani, G. W. Russell, W. R. Russell, G. J. Smith, Steward Stout, Tanner, R. Thompson, Wilson. Against tiie Amendment (26). Messrs Cadiuan, Caruell, Carroll, Flatman, Hall, Hall-Jones, Harris, Hogg, Joyce, W. Kelly, Lawry, M'Gowan, J. M'Kenae, R. M'Kenzie, M'Lachlan, Millar, Mills, Morrison, O'Regan, l'ere, Pinkerton, Seddon, K. M. Smith, Stevens, T. Thompson, Ward. Pairs.—For the amendment: Te Ao, Buchanan, M'Guire, Button, Green, G. Hutchison. Against the amendment: Parata, Duncan, Houston, Larnach, Graham, Willis. Mr Bell then moved a further amendment to make it possible to reduoe the debentures at the end of fifteen years.— I Tho Premier protested against this. It was intended, he said, to prevent the Government from floating the loan.— Mr Bkll indignantly denied that he had any such intention.—The amendment was lost by 31 to 18.

On the Premier intimating that he intended to get the Bill through committee before the House rose, Mr Pibani moved to report progress, which was lost by 29 to 18. Clause 2 as amended was then passed. The machinery clauses following were passed without opposition until clause 16 was reached. This clause (providing that the Act shall be read with the Lands Improvement and Native Lands Acquisition Act, 1894) was challenged by Mr Heke, but was retained by 24 to 11.

Dr Newman moved the following new clause: —"The Governor-shall appoint a royal commission of experts to consider the advisability of extending as light railways all or any of the railways mentioned in the schedule, and report to Parliament next session." Ho spoke of the advisability of constructing light railways in preference to incurring heavy expenditure for the construction of ordinary railways. Mr Montgomery moved a new clause providing that the Ministsr shall, within ten days of the opening of each session, lay before Parliament estimates of the cost of the works constructed out of the loan money. The Premibb said that all the money to be expended would be contained in the Public Works Estimates.—The clause was rejected by 25 to 14. Mr Montgomery moved another new clause to provide that the proceeds of the sales of Native lands should be paid to the credit of the Native lands purchase account and not to the Consolidated Fund.—Tho Premier sakl that this proposal would lead to complications, and it would be almost impossible to carry it into effect. Interest had to be paid out of the Consolidated Fund, and it was not fair to say that the revenue should not go there also.— After a leugthy discussion the clause was negatived by 23 to 17.

The schedules were then considered. —Mr Collins moved to reduce the vote of £200,000 for the development of goldfields by £IOO,OOO. This was negatived by 25 to 17

For the Amendment.—Messrs Allen, Buddo, Collins, Karnshaw, Heke, J. W. Kelly, Lewis, Maslin, Massey, M'Nab, Montgomery, Newman, Pirani, G. W. Russell, G. J. Smith, Tanner, R. Thompson. < Against the Amendment.—Messrs Buick, Cadman, Carncross, Carnell, Carroll, C'rowther, Flatman, Fraser, Hall-Jones, Harris, Joyce, Lawry, M'Gowan, J. M'Kenz'e, R. M Kenxie, M'Lachlan, Mills, Morrison, O'Regan, Pore, Pinkerton, Seddou, E. M. Smith, Steward, T. Thompson. Pairs.—For the amendment: Captain Russell, Messrs Duthie, Te Ao, M'Guire, Button, Green, Hutchison, Sir R. Stout, Wilson, Lang, Bell, and Pirani. Against the amendment: Messrs Ward, Steward, I'arata, Houston, Larnach, Graham, Willis, W. Kelly Hull, Hogg, Mil'ar, and Buick,

Mr R. Thompson then moved to strike out the vote vote of £50,000 for the development of the thermal springs and natural scenery J>i the colony with the object of substituting £25,000, which he thought quite sufficient.—ThePßßMiEß said that thiß vote was one of the most necessary and profitable in the whole schedule.— The amendment was negatived by 23 to 19. On the vote of £250,000 for railways considerable discussion took place on the various allocations, but no amendments were taken to a division, and the whole vote was eventually agreed to on the voices. The Bill was then reported with amendments, which were set down for consideration on Tuesday, the House rising at 7.15 a.m.