PARLIAMENTARY.

Manawatu Times, Volume II, Issue 108, 31 October 1877, Page 2

PARLIAMENTARY.

WEL£IN<HON. ; . October 26. NO-COKFIDENCB DEBATE. Mr ReystoEds gave notice that when ; ihe Hon. Member for Egmont moved Ms motion of _^ant <)f cbitfidence m the Gfovernment, :.he would move i as atu ttoendmenfc '?* That the GfoTOrDment, having not; vet declared their jfbli<rjr, the House declines m the meantime to entertain any vote of want of confidence m the ministry." Major Atkinson. Sir,-—ln the first speech which -the hon. gentleman at the head of the Government delivered after his accession to office, he was pleased^ to describe this House as a really august Assembly, an Assembly commanding the confidence and; respect of the Colony, and one whose duty it was to determine whether he and his colleagues were .proper persons to act as Heads; of this House. This_being the case, I count upon his assi.stance to bring ; the motion which I am about to submit for the consideration of the House toa definite conclusion. There can be no qhe m House who is

more deeply interested m ascertaining the fact whether or not he; possesses the confidence of this Assembly. I shall not have to-night to trouble the House at any great length, but shall content myseft with submiting two or three reasons which seem to me amply coi - elusive m the. direction m which I wish this House to go. In the first place it appears to me that though the hon. gentlemen occupies the position, he is not . head of the Government by the Tote of a majority of this House. It is perfectly certain that there were more gentlemen who voted upon the late division against the late Government than the majority who displaced them, - who would not so havo voted if they had - believed that the hon. ■gentleman would succeed to power, If thjs is true, or there is a suspicion that Ifcig true, I will T ask ;'jhe hon. gentleman whether he de&etfres I to occupy tliat place m that position when he has been challenged and told that he does not rssess the confidence of the House, will ask him whether he will be prepared to accept the amendment of the Ron. member for Port Chalmers, or whether, looking at the views he has ' always enunciated, it will not be the more manly course to vote against that resolution and come definitely to a conclusion to-night, and ascertain whether,or not he has the confidence of the House. But putting this aside for a moment, let us suppose that the hon. gentleman did obtain his seat by a small majority, then I say that even if that is true, he has altogether failed to collect around him such a ministry as this House can have confideric^Pl^at is quite evident, and indeed it ifPfet*3mon talk, that the hon. gentleman can.'-* not even command, the services of the best men of his party. I should like to know why. if the lion, gentleman hae the real confidence ofhia'party, the hon. member for Akaroa. is not' now Colonial-Treasurer, and the hon. member for Auckland East is fiot Attorney- , General. He is a gentleman^ who as we - know is ready at any time either to fall down and worship at the feet of the hon. gentleman or to do anything which he is told to do. Why has he been set . aside P Then let us look at the arrangements which were made m another place. There we have the distinct statement of the gentleman who •represents the Government m the Legislative Council, that he has undertaken the .duty very reluctantly, and only for the,, purpose of getting them out of a difficulty, and that he only considers himself bound to them till the end of the session; and now the Government have been a fortnight m office, and they have been unable to fill up the whole of their seats. Although they chum to have a majority m this * House they are actually unable or unwilling to 'disclose their hands too - much*; at any rate they are unable orun willing to - fill the whole of their offices. Then another reason why this House should not have confidence m the hon. gentleman is that ho has already departed from some cardinal points of the policy which he laid down to this House as essential, •or he has entirely failed to comprehend the importance of then! In the speech m 1 which he shadowed forth the' policy of the Government, he said that their great design was to have a thorough sifting and- investigation into the finances of the Colonies. The dark places were to be made light. ' All the misdoings of the lato Government were to be exposed, and he was "prepared if necessary to retain those seats until lie had an opportunity- of doing so. The finances were to bo placed m a per-* feefcly clear and simple light beforo the public. It .is possible that the hon. gentleman may be able to put them m such a light as no other person has yet been able to put them m, and if he does that, he will certainly " receive my a for I too endeavored to do' so to the* best of my. ability while I was m the Treasury^ I endeavored with all the power I possessed to -make things simple and clear, and I was willing at all times to give information' to everybody upon-the subject. Another point which he laid great stress upon was that the public works were to be carried on with economy and vigoujajtftat the Government, profiting T>y"jhe experience and short comings of former Governments, would be m a better position than any Government had been m to carry them on %ith, vigour and economy. How has the hon. gentleman proceeded to give effect to these 'statements P I know somewhat of the working of both of these departments there are other hon. * gentlemen m this House' who also know wh»tTrork- ; in; those two departments is, and I .venture ~* to-say that there is not an hon. member - who know* < anything of the work that is to be done m those offices who would pretend to say that either office was not more than enough for an ordinary man during session time. What does the hon. gentleman, proceed to do? Starting with the assertion that both of these offices are not m .proper workipg order, and that everything from the Very root requires revision and exposure, what does the hon. gentleman do with two offices either of Which would take the strength of any hon. member m the House P He confers 4hem upon a gentleman whp ; ; is absolutely without political experience and who has never . taken but a very languid interest m - public questions, and that hon. gentle- - man freely accepts the duty* He undertakes to do the work during the session.; he undertakes to give us a full exposition of the finances and to carry on the public works with economy and despatch. Can we- believe that - the hon. gentleman has really apprehended , the magnitude of the task Jbe has un- ■ dertaken when : we see hiia take such '$ steps as these to * give effect to what he ■ proposed to do P I would say that any. ;

- hon.. member by accepting such duties as those shows his absolute unfitness for either offices and I will say that it must make it exceedingly doubtful to this House whether the hon. member either is competent to perform them and I would ask what would we think of a leader who would make such an appointment for such purposes . The hon . gentleman at the. head of the Government when he just addressed the House toldus that we should have the Financial (Statement down either the next day or very shortly afterwards. The hon. /the Colonial Treasurer told m a few days after that we should get it m a day or two ; he fixed last Monday or Tuesday and then, when Monday or Tuesday came he put it off for another week to no definite day to ascertain the facts relating to, the finances. Nowl say that this statement shows that the hon. gentleman misapprehended the task which he had to perform. The facts of the finances of the colony are patent to everyone, the accounts are published as audited ; the facts upon which the hon. gentlemen can have any finances for the future are ready to his hand. If lie had told us that he wanted time to divise some scheme to get over the difficulty which he has caused by abandoning part of the revenue which I intended to use, I could have under, stood his position ; but even then h& could, have had ho ground for the delay which he has asked, and for this reason the hon. gentlemen had evidently thoroughly understated the finances. He was pleased to describe mine as unprincipled and hand to ..Tttijjm^, and said that the proposal to JH^any portion of the Canterbury and * Otago "revenue was very nearly a public .. blunder if not quite. I say when the hon. . gentleman undertook to move a vote- of no confidence, knowing if it was carried that he would have the responsi- . bility of^forming a Government, this House had a right to expect that he had made,hi^iself thoroughly acquainted %ith ./.-jfchjfj" finances, , ; .. and was prp- ; parcel .i?o submit a ' substitute for that which he fead condemned^ and . further, among the party of the' hon. gentleman at the head of the Government, there are I think something like five- .great financiers.; Now with such a t display; of ;. talent as that ;. with vgentlemen whb ;told; US that they were in a position and capable of making a financial statement without any preparation whatever,, was it not reasonable to ... expect that at this period of the session ten days would have been ample for those hon. gentlemen to workout the scheme they desired to propose, and the hon. gentlemen declined altogether >to fix a date. A majority of this House was undoubtedly under the impression that -the hon. gentleman had no in.tention of making a financial statement at all, and the vote which we will take to-night will show it. Another reason why they are under that impression is this,-: -the hon. the Colonial Treasurer, : -toidy.,uß m thaib off-hand ' iraj tiiafc he ; had not yet made himsefi ; thOTOUghly acquainted with the facts, he told us at the same time that lie was prepared to ,_go on with the estimates of the late Government ; there was never a wprd-.that he was going to cut them downVqr . alter them;. Now • I ask any one member whether thatdid not indicate that, the hon. gentleman having lopked all round was'prepared to, accept the financial position as it stood; Then, : Sir, lam told that although this is not .much of a Government that we 'have : pow got, there are great materials m the party, and if we will wait > until the end, of the session we shall .see" a Government of which New Zealand will be proud. "Well, 'I confess for one, I am notprepared to wait; for that time. I for one am not prepared to place m the hands of the Jbon. member forthe Thames the power. „to select colleague's after this. House has risen. I claim my, right as a repre•i Bentativfrpf New Zealand, to know the Government" under which we are to /pass the recess. I know it weighs with •o sqm'eJiQii* members and evidently with .j the hon. / memßer^for Port Chalmers, that we have been too quick m moving a of want of confidence, and \.-We ought to have waited tmtil the J^. gentlemen had more fully ex- . pJWned their , policy. I myself hardly kgow^hat we were to have waited for-, -W« h^ye had one policy already stated by tiie hon. gentleman at the head of the Gpyernment, and we had another . policy stated m another place, one that .we may term, a fairly radical policy the other an absolute .assertion that it was the most conservative Government that had ever existed m New Zealand. .Then:. I presume we are, to wait for a • third policy m orde^r to harmonise and reconcile these two diverse policies. Tp my mind it would be.- absolutely useless >fo waijt at this period of the session Tvhen y lhxm.; gentleriien : are stopping mtfc very great difficulfyi . Thetf JLask why are we -to put hon. members to the -inconveniences . and delay of waiting c ; any longer when b£ ihe course J have - pursued, we shall necessitate those hon. gentlemen, if they have Jany financial upoticy ; to bring it forward, and if they ■. have not, then to expose those^^ wonderful short comings m the Treasury m regard to which they have spread insinuations throughput the country. I challenge, them as I have already challenged theni to bring down their financial policy, or their exposition of the short comings of the late Government. are told :thal tiie present Govern^ ment have done more work m tea days -than we did m two or three months ; but Sir, I would ask what is the work they have dprie ? They have discharged many of .the . Bills which we had put upon the order paper, and they have earned with our assistance other Bills we alsQ put upon the order paper. Thatig thegreat work which thosehon. gentlemen have done. I have no hesitation m saying that the hon. the Native

Minister, who, if he will allow me to give him another title, I would also call i the Minister for Bills, has displayed wonderful ability m obtaining a superficial knowledge. of the. Bills which we have passed through, but he must know himself that the knowledge he obtained of those measures m the short time at ; j his disposal was only superficial, and he could not possibly have defended any : one of those Bills against any opposition by us or any one who knew anything about them. I hope we shall hear no more of the great works those hon. gentlemen have done m the ten days they have been m office. Ido not propose to go into the general policy of the hon. gentlemen at the head of the Government. I might indicate great inconsistency between; his statement the other day and the istatements he has repeatedly made as' leader of the opposition, but I think I have adduced amply sufficient reasons to induce hon. members to pass the resolution which I had the honor to give- notice, I have shown, and no doubt the hon. gentlemen opposite will be able to disprove it, that he does not possess the confidence of the House. He has obtained his position not only not by the vote of the majority of this House, but he has not the absolute/ confidence of even a majority of his own party so far as to be able to command the- services of the best men of that party. I, have shown that if the hon. gentleman was sincere m the point of his statement upon which he laid so much stress, namelyj that the finance was to be thoroughly sifted and discussed; and that .the public works were to;be carried; out with vigor and. economy, he has entirely failed to teke any "steps m that direction ; that by conferring the appointment upon one man ho has made it impossible that the (greatobjecfc of KiSf desire can be given effect to. ; I haye i shown thattho accusation that we were^ precipitate m bringing forward .this motion is without any ground.^-thatiiin fact, if we we^e tnot prepared to waste the time of hon. . gentlemen to a much greater extent than has already been done, we were bound, ; with the least possible delay to find put whether /those hon. gentlemen had the confidence of tlie House or not. I trust these reasons will be considered by the House amply sufficient to induce hon. members ;to support the resolution which I have the lionor. now to submit. Mr. .Reynolds here moved his amendment, • ..;.'■ •'■-■ •■„• :•'' ■. ■ Sir Geob>e Grey, then spoke as follows:: Sir,— A curious sensation stole over me during the; delivery of the speech of the hon. member for Egmont. r came here expecting to iave to reply to a speech of a very different character. I felt m fact that I was a gentle lamb drinking at a stream of water, and that there was a great wolf stirring up the stream and accusing me of doing so, and determining to gobble, me up if he could. He seemed 'determined to find some fault, but I had., ho fear,, that I should npt.;:^e..-; : :ab^.f'.i|i9' .'resist his attacks ; and I : have- no fear now. The hon. member for Egmont has made the accusation*that I have not been placed on theseTbenches by the vote of a majority of this House. Sir, it is not at all unusual when an hon. gentleman is requested to form a Ministry, that he should decline Jthe principal place him? self/ and select some other gentleman as chief. Thatt is a constitutional rule, a rule which is constantly observed, and one. which was: followed on the present occasion. Another ground cf objection was, that I was unable to obtain the as-' sistancepf the greatest minds of my own party. To that I reply that the statement is absolutely inaccurate. It is perfectly true ;that 1 was unable to obtain the assistance of the hon. member for Akaroa; but that gentleman declined to join me for reasons which were: : hpnprable to r himself, and for which J] hare no reason to be ashamed — ($EtZ\ MdNTGOMBjBir .'': Hear, hear.)— With. Regard, to the other honorable gentlemen who composed, the party with whict I have the, 'honor 'to act, it must be known to all the, inhabitants of New Zealand that they combine amongst them a vast ataount of ability, knpw-< ledge, and parliamentary power. One* or two of those gentlemen did decline to join the Government at present, for reasons honorable to this House, and honorable to the country. They said they had recently' 'become members of the party, and that it should never be .said that they had determined to help me m carrying but my views from a desire to take office. They declined solely on that account. Contrast that conduct, sir, with the conduct of some of those hon. gentlemen who occupy the Opposition benches. Other hon. gentlemen belonging to my party told me that they desired not to take office, m order ithat I might, if possible, ultimately constitute a, Government composed of; gentlemen from every provincial districtof New Zealand. *We have been taunted amongst other things, with not having rapidly developed our financial system, and the hop. gentleman went on to say that we should , deserve well ;pfr the wholecbuntrylif we put the accounts" of the colony before the people m such ; a form that they might? be; understood; by all. Sir,' the! accounts of this country are understood by : nbne.except' experts. The system is a sysfein oftransfers from one account to another, m suet a way thatr m a! whole they are incomprehensible to any but a. person who is reaEy. an expert m referericejto ■ them, and the "public of New Zealand have been greatly misled by the accounts put before them- 1 - accounts absolutely unintelligible. Many of the accounts are absolutely delusive—absolutely; deceptive, except to an expert—and even to an* expert would be incomprehensible, unless each # item were taken and resolved into its separate component |parts, ; which would be an extremely difficult task. Can it be

maintained that if I was to be relieved from a task of this kind that to me it would be anything but a great relief ? I have been taunted with the political character of the gentlemen who compose the Government. Sneers have been levelled at them. Sir, I believe the Colonial Treasurer will be found fully adequate to.the task he has had afforded him. His knowledge of accounts is great, Ms integrity is 1 great, his industry is unbounded. To give the House an idea oE the difficulties we have to meet, I have prepared a short statement of the liabilities which must be instantly dealt with, and I shall read this - to the House, when they may see what is^ the difficulty under which New Zealand is struggling. These large sums must immediately be raised m some wayorxothei. There was, according to the statement ; of the late Colonial Treasurer, a neccessity for a loan of £2,000,000 for the completion of publio works and the redemption of the guaranteed debentures. Then for additional provincial liabilities unprovided for at the present time it is ascertained that £200,000 will berequired, , but that sum must be swelled to a still' greater amount. There are Treasury bills outstanding to the amount of £832,000. There is a deficiency- of revenue as estimated by the late Colonial Treasurer ot £167,000 to be met. Then it is absolutely neccessary to obtain this session the means of raising a further sum of £l,ooojooo to repay loans by the Bank of New Zealand and Bank of New South Walesa It is also necessary to obtain a sum of £100,000 by the first of January next to meet a loan incurred on account of the Lyttelton Harbor. There is also £200,000 required to meet further public works and Supplementry Estimates of the late Government; and we shall have to provide another £200,000 to meet discount on the two milli >n loan, if issued at 4| per cent, assuming the bonds bring. £90 net. That gives us a total of £^,699,000 which has to be raised at once/ But m addition there has^ been borrowed from the !Publio Works Loan Account £300,000. : I am satisfied that that sum will also have to be provided for m some, way v other than out of the Consolidated Fund. It is simply a floating debt. The late .Government were authorised to borrow £300,000 from the Public Works account, and what has been done? That sum having, been borrowed and used last year it was repaid into the . Public Account on the 30th June, so the account was squared and the amount disappears. But early m July and August the sum was reborrowed. The fact is, it was not a payment at all. It was paid m, and borrowed again instantly. Then there is another account which must be brought under the notice of the House, and that .is claims of which the. House has never been informed ; • but claims for extra works and other contracts for railways amount to £171,237. I have thus further to add, m reference to the statement I have made m regard to our liabilities, that m point of fact 'they include a debt of a most objectionable character. They include what I may call a floating debt. In that I include £1,000,000 borrowed from the banks, £832,000 Trieasury bills, and £100,000 required for the Lyttelton Harbor. Tnat is a floating debt of nearly £2,000;000. Now I ask the attention of the House to this most im;portant matter. The Government have gone into the open market and m the open- market have raised loans at a comparatively low rate of interest ; arid the Governmerit have withheld from the persons from whom they so borrowed, the fact that they were raising from private individuals, or m what I may call the "close" market, Jarge sums of money at a high rate of interest. When ' that fact comes to be known, 'I . am afraid pur credit must be seriously shaken. In. fact it is a system of finance of a .most objectionable kind. We have clearly ascertained our position. We have devised' a scheme of finance which I hoped we could havepresented to the House. I believe that ..system of finance would have been satis- !> factory to this; House jthatit would s :have been accepted with pleasure by the Kcountry. at large; that the foreign creditor, would have recognised mit our determination to meet our liabilities m .the most proper manner; I believe that the reductions which we would have shown could be carried out; would haye satisfied the. House x that price, they placed us m a stable position we could vastly reduce the existing expenditure. I think that wo -could have shown that 4 system --jpdE> taxation would be estab-, lished which would be fair, and would relieve |ne ; people, from many of = the burdens underrwhich they now labor, and would place equally on all should ders' the exact proportion of burdens whichthey should fairly bear. I believe all that could have been done, but the hon. gentleman is pleased, .and his; friends, are pleased, m their avidity >for office, not to wait even for a few days totseeif what we? proposed was -objec^nablei. -They rusk m- a* stop what is goingf on. I am satisfied they do riot wish thaft a more liberal system thaii their own should have the. approyal of the^HpusW Thiay-dp^ript diesite that a poiicy which would hayd. put to the: blush sliould have; been raised ..up m 'this l country, arid; they "would rather stifte imant at the moment of its birth th^n^allbw it to attain ,&j magnitude which would prevent their returns to* office. I would have shrunk^ wJiSt^sltiaine from some of the expedients wJbich some of tlie late Government have had recourses to m reference to those sumsrWrhiclt they proposed:, to take , without, the j authority of law from the Laud Fund of Can-, terbury and Otago. If the House cari, select better men to occupy pur seatsj by all means dp so ; and I say if

they prove their capacity for solving this difficult problem m a proper inan-ner^-If they propose to do so m a way that is fair and honest, plundering no one, and securing to all their rights — then I will cheerfully and gladly assist them m such measures, whoever they may be. After some further discussion the House adjourned. [Per Press Agency.] I Tuesday. Mr Fox thought there was no need to wait for a financial or any other statement. They knew enough to judge of Grey's poli(jy. It was impossible drey Sheehan . could reconcile their ' ]pißvipus declarations with their present He accused Grey of always preferring a tortuous path to a straight! one and .always throwing dust m •people's eyes. The real liberal party, w,as. comprised of those who introduced* public works and abolished provinces. Grey wanted taro provinces under a miserable federation. He ridiculed x Grey's promises of retrenchment and accused Larnacli of having broken his pledge to support Atkinson and attributed it to the liberal Land Bill. Grey was attempting to climb into authority and power by delusive promises. Ballance supported Grey because he believed^in his liberal principles. What, liberality ;: was m the Land Bill had been mtrpduced m committee. The conduclirof the opposition m" bringing forwarct]such a motion was unfair and unconstitutional. He quoted precedents to . show Grey was entitled to obtain a dissolution m case of an adverse vote. He accused . Whitaker of improperly using his position to obtain eighteen thousand acres of valuable land, r ;'•; V-Travers would have voted for Grey if heT had given assurance he would the unity of the colony, A few other speakers- followed. Adjournment moved by Macandrew., H6%| rose;at;i2.2s; Tokomapna : opposed Atkinson's mo- '■. tion, and said if late Government had riot gbrie out native disturbances would have occurred. B/Ussell did not see why, if present Government had^^ any policy to bring down, they should not lay it before the country m course of present debate. They could do nothing but take up what their predecessors had prepared. . ' Beader Wood condemned the indecent eagerness to regain office shewn by' Atkinson. He ridiculed the tactics of the middle party to keep Grey out of office, and declared that as for Curtis saying.he and others would not accept' a Government led by Grey, that neither House nor country would stand a Government of faded: superintendents and old officials. The general situation of the Laud Fund [was, m his opinion, the only means by which the colony could be relieved of its difficulty, and no government .which was_npt.boJLd,enough : , to propose- this could hope to lastlong. At .considerable length he criticised Fpx's-speech and past political career. ,- Theidivision is expected to ..come off to-night by both parties.