THE AMENDED LICENSING BILL.

Manawatu Herald, Volume XXXII, Issue 917, 12 November 1910, Page 3

THE AMENDED LICENSING BILL.

FOR LOCAL AM) NATIONAL OPTION. KEEN DISCUSSION IN THE HOUSE. SOME IMPORTANT ALTERATIONS. WELLINGTON, Nov. 10. Tho House became ostensibly alert at. 3.45 this afternoon, when the Licensing Bill entered on its Committee stage. SIR JOSEPH EXPLAINS. Sir Joseph Ward said he wanted the Committee to come, to a. decision on two important points, which, if carried, would involve structural alterations in the Bill. Ho had not, shut his oyes to the fact, that, there was a great diversity of opinion us to how the issues should he put, to the country. After fully considering tho matter, tho Government, bad decided to ask tho House to submit tho issues of local option and national prohibition on two ballot papers. (Hear, hoar.) There was also a great difference of opinion on tin: subject of the majority ret|iiired to carry national proliibition. lie proposed to ask tho House to agree to tho ballot papers being as follows; —■ ONE. I vote Continuance. I vote No-Licenso. TWO. 1 vote for National Prohibition. 1 vote against National Prohibition. Tho Government bad decided to ask tho House to decide all the issues on a three-fifths majority. Ho felt pretty confident that ho was suggesting tho proposal most likely to go through Parliament. (Hoar, hoar.) It enabled the Moderate to have full power to exercise bis veto, and gavo everyone full power ot voting directly on thu issues put before them. He rocoguiaed that wo ought to havo licensing reforms. This Bill Contained them, and it would be a. thousand pities that, through want of appreciation, such a measure should be wrecked. Mr Massey cl id not think there was a dennuid for the Bill. His opinion was that the majority of the people were in fa \our of tho existing law. Sir Joseph Ward: That is not my experience.

Mr Jennings said he occupied tho most extraordinary position in reference to this Bill, wiiicii contained no provision for the abolition of wholesale licenses in tho King Country. Wcro tho people of that district, ho asked, to bo deprived of their right to give a. vote on that question f No-Licenso would never have been granted in that district if tho people had bad an opportunity of voting on the subject, and ho complained that tho Prime Minister had not, fulfilled his promise to give tho people an opportunity of voting on the question. Tho residents of the King Country were in favour of At at e-control ot tho drink traffic. MU JIERDMAN CAUSTIC.

Mr llerdmaii asked what was Ihr policy of (ho Government on the Liill'i ■Surely it. Government should stick to a liill once it had brought it. down. What, ho. asked, hud become of the compact: Did it still exist, or hud it been thrown to the winds': How had the J’ritne Aliaister arrived at the decision just announced ' Had it been arrived at by tossing a. coin t THE NU-LIGENSE ADVOCATES. In answer to a question by Air Alalculm. Sir Joseph Ward said he proposed that prohibition should take client in twelve months alter it was carried. Air Malcolm said the effect of the JJiii was that prohibition would not take effect until two years from the Ist July after which the proposal was carried. Air T. E. Taylor remarked that at the last election a huge majority of those who voted were in favour of prohibition. Hy this Hill the reduction vote was eliminated, which was a groat concession to the trade, and at the same time a proposal was made to allow the operation of local prohibition to bo postponed for an additional period of twelve months. Air E. 11. Taylor said an anomaly in tin; Hill was the proposal to ask the voter to strike out the top lino in voting for national prohibition and the bottom lino is voting for local no-license. That would only cause trouble and confusion. Air Hoole said he had listened carefully to tho i’nino Alinistor, and he was convinced that the people of this country were not going to bo coerced into confusing issues by using a double ballot paper. Tho proposal ho regarded as a trick, and was decidedly un-Democratic. He objected also to the proposal to submit a distorted issue to the electors by askiug them to strike out the top lino in one issue and the bottom line in another issue. 'Die No-License party in this country ha“ spent thousands of pounds in advertising tho ery, “Strike out tho top line.” This jumble in the voting papers was an injurious device, and uo doubt emanated Ironi tho legal advisers ol the Liquor party. Air Eisher remarked that if tho Hill was to have any chance of going through I Ins session there w ould have to he less talking ol the obvious. “Let us gel into grips,'’ lie urged. Sir Joseph Warn said he was actuated with a desire to get a good measure on to the statue bool;. Air Aiassey; lou have practically recast tho whole Hill. Sir Joseph Ward : “This Hill for the llrst time provides tor a national issue, it provides lor the abolition ol bottle licenses and the locker system. It debais the sale -of liquor to persons under 21. It deals with the sale ol liquor to natives, It provides that depots cannot Do placed within live miles of a No--I,cense district, and deals with the sending of liquor into iSo-license districts, j mire are other important provisions, including the abolition ol barmaids. There was, he added, nothing in the nature of a compromise lor anyone. He was not. inseusihte to tlie tact ttiat then was room for discussion and possible amendment; somebody had suggested a

■■inck" in the Mill. Tho Uovermneul had uo thought of perpetrating a trick ot any kind. I, ulcss the House could slunv fOiuc uuiiiuuuty ou the Bill he kuuw it. coulil never go through. .Mi - Luwry asked: Wouhl it. not he bolter to inbuilt the -Lull to a ."select t onmiittee ot the House i Sir Joseph Waul replied that he was not in favour of sueh a proposal, he cause no matter what a committee might recommend such a Bill could only- he dealt with on the lloor ot the blouse. The short title was then passed as a clause ol t lie Hill. The ijm-MU'ii ui providing two separate ballot papeis lor me national and local opt ion issues came up on Clause 3. TWO BALLOT BA BEKS. Sir Joseph Ward moved that when the clause stipulated that "1110 question shall be suouutled m the lorm set lortli in tho lust schedule,'’ the word "lust’' should be struck out. This, tho Brimc .Munster siiul, he would accept as an indication that the House wauled the clause remodelled so as to eusuro two separate ballot papers. The word was struck out on tho voices. AL ThUJLNU TUii AIAJOUiT V. Wiicu Clause 4, proMiUng lor a i>s per cent., majority, roaeheil, \Uo Tniue Minister moved to have the clause amended »o ;i> to provide tor a bU per cent, majority. .Mr 1. E. Taylor urged that it the ITemier was going to put a measure uu Hie ."statue ituoi, whicJt would be acceptable to the people, he should slick to Ihe bb per cent, majority. .Mr Boole urged that it any amend meiit was made 111 tho chaise it should lie in the direction ol providing for the hare majority. .Ur .Malcolm said he had intended moving an amendment in favour of the bare majority, but it Ihe suggestion to make iho uU J'er cent, majority was not accepted he would be content to leave it at bh per cent. .Mr Wright said that if the amendment was carried a majority of bare majority members would be returned to Barlmmeut next election, lie urged that the clause should stand, and warned the friends of the trade to stand to it or face something worse after the next general election. ELECTION PLEDGES.

Sir Joseph Waul said he had been approached by a number of members, who iuformeu mm that they were pledged lo their elec, on, to aland to the threeliftlis mujorhy. Mr Poole; i hi!;, in regard lo local option; not national option. Sir Joseph Wind said he could only conform to tin 1 desire of the many members who found (hat the clause as it stood was an embarrassment in view of their election pledges. Mr J P. Puke said he keenly desired reform but the lore majority was a question for next eheiion. It was an issue that had to go before the electors. The three-fifths major ity represented stabi-

lily. Ho was member for a no-liconso district., but. lie intended standing to his election pledge and voting for the threefifths majority. -Mr Anderson, another representative of a, no-licenso district, said ho regarded tho three-fifths majority as standing for stability ami he would vote accordingly. Mr E. 11. Taylor said ho had always been a bare majority man. From tho fact that, a majority of 30,000 last election declared in favor of no-licenso it, could ho seen what tho feeling of the public was. Ho hoped that, the 56 per cent, majority proposals would be retained.

A dozen members stated wbal their election pledges were, but the House was not, inclined to listen to statements of the kind and thoro wore numerous interjections of “Order” and “Don’t stonewall the Bill.” Mr Ross asked: Did the Prime Minis ter intend making tho three-fifths majority apply to the local option issue as well' as the national issue. Air Joseph Ward replied that such was his intention. THE DIVISION LIST. The danse was amended by 51 to 21, the division list being as follows: FOR. Alien. MacDonald. Anderson. R. Mackenzie. Bollard. T. Mackenzie. Brown. Mander. Buchanan. Massey. Buddo. Millar. Hoick. Myers. Carroll. Newman. Davcy. Ngatu. Divo.' Nosworthy. T. Duncan. Okey. J. Dunoan. Pa rata. Field. Pearce. Forbes. Phillips. Frasor. Rangihiroa. Glover. Rhodes. Graham. Ross. Outhrio. Russell. Hall. Scott. Hardy. Seddon. Hordmun. Sidcy. Hurries. Smith. Hogan. -L C- Ihomson. Jennings. Ward. Lang. Witty. Luke. AGAINST. Arnold. McLaren. Buxton, Malcolm. Clark. Poland. LTaigic. Poole. Bib St allworlhy. Fisher. Steward. Hunan. K T. Taylor. Hine. T. E. T. Taylor. Hogg. Wilford. La mention. Wright. Law ry. The position when tho Committee resumed at 7.30 p.m. was that tho 55 per emit majority had been struck out of Iho clause, and Sir Joseph Ward moved to insert three-fifths. Mr Poole called for a div Lion, which resulted in I,lie motion being carried by 54 to lb. Sir Joseph Ward, going back on tho Bill, moved to amend caluso 3 so as to I,ring it into line with his proposal that (Imre shall be two ballot papers, one for local option and one lor national prohibition. The necessary amendments wore agreed A NO-LJOENSE GAIN. Referring again to danse 4 Mr T. E. Taylor pointed out that it, meant that If local prohibition was carried license would continue for a year and .seven months instead of oidy about coven months a.s at. present. Sir Joseph Ward admitted that that was the ease.

Air Taylor objected to this benefit being granted to tho trade, seeing that the party of reform had mot got rid q£ tho burden of the threo-fiftha majority and had at the same time given up the reduction vote. There would bo a feeling of intense indignation amongst the nolicense people of tho Dominion if tho proposal in the Hill was carried. “The Hill,” said Air Malcolm, “was only lit for the waste paper basket now, and to leave this clause unaltered would be to deliberately flout tho people of llie Dominion. The question would como prominently before the electors at the next general election.” Air Anderson moved an amendment to provide that local prohibition shall come into force on the Ist of July alter the Poll lias been taken. THE PUEAHLR.S THREAT.

Sir Joseph Ward said that tho memorandum ol the agreement between tile representatives ot no-iicciise and license mentioned tun years, and tins period bad been reduced to one year in the Hill. Euless members adopted a reasonable attitude progress on tho Hill would be stopped. He objected to the charge that tho Government was flouting tho people ot New Zealand. In the absence ot a spirit of compromise the prospect for Hie proposals in tho Hill did not look healthy. Air T. E. Taylor said lie recognised that the spirit of compromise must govern tho issues, hut 7io repeated his pica that the no-license party was entitled to sometiling for conceding tho reduction issue. Air Eishor said he would rather see tho Hill put on the scrap heap than have it, with tin; sub-sect,ton in question. Air Anderson’s amendment was defeated by 51 votes to 26, but immediately afterwards the House agreed on the voices to a proposal by Air Hogan that the law in regard to the period for tile Accuses should remain as at present (terminating with tho licensing year at the end of Juno and giving effect to tile determination of the elections seven mouths after the poll instead of nineteen). TH REE-KIETHS MA J GRIT Y CARRIED.

The House agreed without division to tho Prime Minister’s amendment in favour of a continuance of the threo-fifths majority at the pods PROPORTION OE LICENSES. Hostility was expressed against subsection 2 of section II providing flint in the event ot restoration el licenses in a “dry" district the number of licenses shall not exceed one for every complete 4UO electors. It was complained that the iiumuor oi hoteJs might bo largely increased. Air Wright said that the clause would allow the opening of fifteen hotels in ins district il restoration was carried.

Mr Taylor requested that the- clause should be struck out ami tho old law retained.

Tho I'nme Minister explained that, tho proportion ot one hotel iu 4UU electors was the present average lor New Zealand as a whole. He was willing to accept 600 instead ot 400. lie also accepted rUuO instead of BUU in the latter part of the clause mentioning that the number ol licenses shall not be less than one tor everv complete BUU electors. IN THE EVENT OT' lIESTOUATION. At clause 11, permitting Licensing Committees to grant licenses where restoration has been carried in any district, .Mr T. E. Taylor moved to insert a new proviso to provide that the L'ominitteo shall be empowered to grant licenses other tlnui publicans' licenses to the same extent as prevailed in the district before no-ficeiise was carried. Sir Joseph Ward said he could not accept the amendment. Personally, he was not in lavour ol creating any monopoly, and he knew that 111 carrying reduction in the past monopolies had been created, rfe would remind the member lor Christchurch North that even if restoration was carried in some districts it would be imposi-tble to grunt, wholesale licenses, since they had never existed before. The amendment, was lost by 48 to 25. .Sir Joseph Ward moved a. new subclause to da use 11 providing that in no-licoiise districts whore restoration is carried the Licensing Committee shall give preterenee to premises mi respect ol which licenses previously existed. Tins was agreed to on the voices. At clause 14, Sir Joseph Ward moved a. now sub-clause providing for the two issues being put on a ditierent paper to ihat used tor the electoral poll. The clause was added ou the voices, and suh-clauses 3, 4 and 5 were struck out. THE NATIONAL ISSUE. Clause 16 piovides that to carry national prohibnioii there must he liftv-live per cent of valid votes recorded in favour of the issue. In accordance with bis previous annoutieemenl on tho local option issue. Sir Joseph Ward moved to sulistitute three-tilths (or DO per cent). 31 r Malcolm protested. He said the fair thing would be a bare majority, especially in the case of a Bill which np to this was always in favour of the 1 rude.

Sir Joseph Waul: That is absolutely contrary to fact.

Mr Malcolm; That is my opinion. Mr T. E. Taylor said he intended to vote for the substitution of the bare iliaJonty. The Trade would very shortly be erving out for the ba.re majority. He would not care whether the granting of the principle meant the restoration of

all the licenses that had been swept away. It was a sound democratic principle. Mr Wright also appealed for th«* bare majority. Sir Joseph Ward said members did not. realise what, the altered proposals meant in the Bill. As first .submitted there was only one ballot paper, and now it was being asked that with tho double voting paper no allowance should be mado for the, change. This was not the way to effect a compromise. Mr Poole said he thought the. Dominion prohibition issue was premature, but in view of the concessions they had already been called upon to make in regard to the Bill he thought they should lie allowed to have their way in this ca sc.

Mr Russell said that, if tho loeal option was decided on a threo-fifths majority and the national issue cm a 55 per cent, majority there would he hopeless confusion. The member for Avon said he had never been in favour of national prohibition. If it were carried he reminded members that the State would have to make up a deficiency in revenue of £BOO.OOO per year. Tons of thousands of people in this country would vote local option every time, but, they would never vote national prohibition. Mr Poole: That is why wo want, separate ballot papers. AN “AMY BOCK” BILL.

Mr E. Mander said he thought the 65 per cent, majority would bo quite safe as far as the Trade was concerned. In fact, even with the bare majority he was certain that national prohibition would never be curried. Tho Bill, ho declared, was not wanted. Tho country was not. ready fur it, and no one had asked for it. He regarded it as an “Amy Bock” kind of a Bill (laughter). It was a- deceptive and tricky measure, drafted with the, intention of misleading tho people.

Mr Hunan -said the vote to bo taken on this clause was the most important in the Bill. He contended that tho questions of national prohibition and local no-licenso were absolutely district, and wbal had been arranged in ono case should not weigh in the other case.

A division was called, and resulted in the danse being amended so as to inelnde the ihrec-iiths majority bv 60 votes to 25. AN IMPORTANT PROPOSAL IN THE BILL.

Clause 17, providing that in the event of national prohibition being carried it shall not come inlo effect for four years, was passed without discussion.

"Mr Massey called for a division on danse 20, which provides that during national prohibition no liquor shall be manufactured, imported or sold in New Zealand.

The danse was passed as a clause of (he Bill bv 52 to 17. NATIONAL OPTION—NO LIQUOR. Beet ion 20 provides that during national prohibition liquor is not to be imported. mannfaeturud. or sold in Nuiv Zealand. Upon a division, tho clause was retained by 57 voles to 17.

THK BILL, PASSED. The Licensing Bill again occupied considerable attention in the House of Representatives yesterday. The measure passed through its committee stages, and later in the evening the Prime Minister moved the third reading, which was agreed to. The most important amendment by the Committee yesterday Was in the alteration of the ballot paper, which will be as under:— In License Districts.

I vote for Continuance. I vole lor No-liceuse. In No-License Districts

I vote for local Restoration I vote for local No-license. The National Issue,

I vote for National Restoration, I vote lor National Prohibition