Parliament of New Zealand.

Marlborough Express, Volume IV, Issue 191, 28 August 1869, Page 4

Parliament of New Zealand.

Proposed new County.—Case of Marlborough. On August 12th, Mr. Stafford introduced a bill for creating a new County of the Timaru and Gladstone districts, to which we alluded in our last. We have now the Hansard containing the debate, from which we learn that the population proposed to be dealt with is about 5,500. We purpose hereafter recurring to this subject, and, therefore omitting Mr. Stafford’s outline of his measure, proceed to give the remainder of the debate. , ,

Mr. Stafford, in conclusion, said some action must, ere'long, Be 'taken... in the matter, I feel perfectly certain, if we are to have anything like harmony and concurrence in public action, and an absence of general animosity—of that increasing animosity* leading to persohal disputes—which is occurring in many parts of the Colony, and more conspicuously in that part to which this BiU directly refera. Itjanhbt bnt think that it is a very great pity that 'we cannot at once recognise and act upon "this' great principle : that the object of all legislation is not only the well being of the people, but the keeping them satisfied. As long as 'the, people are discontented in a country, &b , ilong as they are determined that they wi ll'

not work harmoniously with existing institutions. but will thwart them in everyway, then I say it does tecome the duty of the Legislature to consider seriously what grievances exist as a foundation for their complaints, and to propose and apply such remedies as the circumstances may warrant. Mr. Bobla.se did not rise to oppose the introduction of the Bill, and hoped it would he discussed fully when the second reading came on. He wished to say that unless they intended to have one general system applicable to the whole of the Colony, it was no use making single attempts to establish a county. They already had experience of that kind of legislation in Southland and Marlborough ; and if those Counties were not able to support the burdens imposed on them, he was sure Gladstone was not. If those districts could afford to carry on their own affairs, and with their own money, well and good, let them do it; but if they could not, they had no business to come to the House for legislation. Marlborough and Southland had failed to carry on their own affairs, and he thought, if the Bill now proposed was passed, it would be seen that Gladstone was equally incapable. Mr. Cabletox thought that if they waited until the House had agreed upon the mode of giving relief, they might wait a very long time. He was not going to argue the question between the out districts and the Provinces, but intended to observe that, in order to justify the rejection of a measure of the kind proposed, it was not sufficient to show that there were objections to it, Nearly all the questions of this nature that came before them involved a choice of evils. It was not maintained that the schemes hitherto devised for emancipating the out-districts from the petty tyranny of Provincial Governments had been entirely successful. His own opinion was that they had not been entirely successful; but that, when it came to a choice of evils, they found that those ’who separated under those schemes had been contented, and resolutely refused to be replaced in their former position. For an instance of the resolution of those who had been emancipated not to go back to their former situation, he would refer honorable members to a public meeting which had taken place the other day in Marlborough He thought that when relief was asked for by any body of settlers within the Colony, such request should receive the most respectful consideration of Parliament, and should not be refused because of certain general principles, only admitted to be general principles by one section of the House, and repudiated as such by the other section.

Mr. Dillon Bell. —The views which I have for many years entertained on this question are, to some extent, contrary to the views which have been held for quite as long a time by the honorable member at the head of the Government; but we are entirely agreed upon the fundamental objection which there is to the passing of a measure of this hind—a measure which disturbs the existing form of government, and lands us in new constitutional experiment, which neither the House nor the country have had an opportunity of expressing an opinion upon. I wish to say, nevertheless, not with reference to the principle of the measure —which the Government as a Government would object to —but with respect to some of the remarks of the hon. member for Timaru, that I entirely agree with him. There is no doubt that the great secret of maintaining a successful Government in any country is to see that the institutions under which the people live are in harmony with the wishes of the people themselves, and are really made the means of promoting their welfare and happiness ; and it is, of course, the bounden duty of the High Court of Parliament, when there seems a spirit of discontent, and endeavour to remove them if possible. I believe that if the proposals which were made by my hon. friend the member for Gladstone some years ago, when the question was being mooted as to the repeal of the Hew Provinces Act, had received the assent of the House, that in spite of that repeal of the Hew Provinces Act, which removed any chance of arriving at the sources of the discontent and agitation which afterwords sprung up by reason of that very repeal, we should have been in a different position at the present time, and should not see around us a kind of Provincial agitation, in which the wishes of the people have been mis-directed towards a somewhat spurious form of self-government. I say spurious, because I think we have, in the County of Westland, a proof that the people there do not possess that form of represent tative self-government which, at any rate, it was the desire of the majority of this House to confer upon it when it was removed from the control of the original Province from which it sprung. I say the time is approaching when we must endeavour to provide some means by which such discontent shall be met and provided against, and it will be the most earnest desire of

every member of the Government, just as it is of every member of the House, to devote their attention to that object. But we shall devote our attention to it rather with a view to remove the faults that exist in the working of our own institutions, and to promote the harmonious action of the various bodies constituted under them, than with a view of destroying them, and substituting other fundamental forms of Government in their place. In the case of Timaru, although I am acquainted with a good many people living in the district, and know the district, I am not sufficiently acquainted with it to oppose my own opinion to that held by their representative, the hon. member for Timaru; but I venture to say that if some proposition were made to them by which a proper portion of the revenue raised within the district were to be handed over to a local body for expenditure, and they were to have the means of colonising their own district, and attending to their own public works, and they were asked to seek for necessary legislation from the Province of Canterbury, I do not think they would make any objection. What I fear we are getting into trouble by, is the system of dealing with public house Bills, and municipal legislation of that sort, when wo really have hardly time to attend to those pressing matters of public moment in which the whole heart of the country must necessarily be engaged for some years to come. It is with the greatest difficulty that we can get this house together. It ought to possess men in whom the colony should have confidence ; yet when constituencies lose any members, there is difficulty enough to get good men to step forward to represent them, without adding to that difficulty—an insuperable one—in the knowledge that they would have to legislate for public houses and other trifling matters for every division and subdivision into which it might please the Legislature to divide the country. With respect to what has fallen from the honorable member for the Bay of Islands, I would ask that honorable member not to bring the circumstances of that public meeting in Marlborough before the House as an instance of satisfactory action on the part of the people. It is quite true a public meeting was held to protest against being re-annexed to Nelson, but, on the other hand, the people af Marlborough do not seem willing to provide the amount necessary to maintain their own establishments. I will qualify this statement by saying that the House does, and has done, some amount of injustice by never taking any action under that clause of the New Provinces Act which enables the Customs Revenue to be regulated. There is no doubt that Marlborough is in this position : there is a certain amount of population, and it is absolutely certain that that population does not so much differ from the population of the rest of the country as to make such an enormous difference in their comsumption of dutiable goods as to reduce their customs revenue to the point to which it is reduced. It is perfectly true that the people of Marlborough do consume a certain amount of goods which pay duty either at Nelson or Wellington, and they are, therefore, entitled to the revenue paid in those provinces in that way ; but it is not the less true that the Surplus Revenues Act provided the means by which any injustice of that kind should be remedied, and what I should have done if I had been a representative of Marlborough, and what you, Mr. Speaker, would have done if you had not filled the position of Speaker, would have been, instead of asking the House to quarter my Province upon the consolidated fund, and so place myself in the position of a beggar, to have endeavored to obtain some adjustment of the revenue receipts under the provisions which octually existed before the Surplus Revenues Act was passed. Mr. Eyes said that although it might be rather irregular to import into the discussion matters relating to the Province of Marlborough, he might be allowed to say a few words in consequence of what had fallen from the honorable member for Mataura and the honorable member for the City of Wellington. The honorable member for the City of Wellington asserted that the Province of Marlborough had been dependent on the Province of Wellington for support, but he did not know upon what grounds he made that statement, unless he alluded to a slight payment made by that Province the year before last towards refunding to the Province of Marlborough what it had previously received indirectly. The last speaker pointed out the remedy which he would have adopted for securing to the Province of Marlborough her just rights, but he only need remind the House that it had been tried, by communications to the different Governments, and among others, to Mr. Domett’s Government, of which the honorable member for Mataura was himself a member. He (Mr. Eyes) had made application on behalf of the Province to have the clause of the Surplus Revenues Act brought into operation, but had never been able to accomplish that object. Having

failed to do so, lie had last year presented a very large petition on the subject, praying for an adjustment, and therefore he thought that the taunts of the honorable member were certainly uncalled for. He might, perhaps, be allowed to refer to a remark made by the Hon. the Colonial Treasurer in his Financial Statement that the Province of Marlborough was in an insolvent state.

The Speaker.— The honorable member will hardly be in order in discussing the Financial Statement, although I think he is entitled to reply to what has been said in the course of the debate. Mr. Eves said that it had been assumed by the last speaker, and other honorable members, that the Province of Marlborough, if it were really desirous of retaining Provincial Institutions, should tax itself, instead of coming to that House. He had no hesitation in saying that if Marlborough had,her just dues, she would be in a more solvent state than any other Province in the Colony. It was very unjust to the inhabitants of the Province to say that, if they wanted the Colonial Departments kept up, they must tax themselves, whilst the taxes they already paid must go into the coffers of other Provinces. It could not be supposed that the people of Marlborough would consent to any such injustice. He was very glad to hear that the honorable member for Mataura was in faror of an adjustment being made, and be should now have some chance of carrying a measure to give Marlborough her fair share of the revenue which she paid. If that were done, he should not have to ask the House, as he had done last year, to contribute anything towards the maintenance of the departments in the Province, which must be kept up at the expense of the Colony, or else the gaols would have to be thrown open, and the police discharged. Mr. Cracroft Wilson, C. 8., thought that leave should be given to bring in the Bill, however objectionable it might be, and that the expression of any objections should be left to the second reading, Mr. Stafford thought that the remarks of the honorable member for Mataura were very wide of the mark, as they went into the whole question of the new Provinces. The honorable member for the Wairau was certainly justified in speaking on the subject of Marlborough after the allusion made to it, and he would remind the honorable member that he would have an opportunity of going into the whole question when the Financial Statement was being discussed. The Province of Marlborough had been most unfairly treated. Leave was granted. Mr. Stafford and Mr. Jollie were ordered to prepare the Bill, which was brought in, read a first lime, ordered to bo printed, and the second reading fixed for Wednesday. Resident Magistrate at Kaikoura,

On the 18tb, the House went into Committee of Supply, and went on with the Law and Justice Estimates, the whole of the whole of the class being agreed to without a division, and with very few reductions. On the item Marlborough, £570, Mr. Eyes moved that this item be reduced by £IOO, being the amount set down for Resident Magistrate at the Kaikouras. The appointment had only been made about six months ago, and thero was no necessity for it, as the Justices of the district had previously conducted the business of the Court in the most efficient manner. There were eight or ten gentlemen of standing and ability living within a radius of about ten miles from the Court House, and they had fulfilled their duties not only with satisfaction to the inhabitants, but with pleasure to themselves, as they took a pride in their work. The appointment was held by the Collector of Customs, but he did not think that could pay, because the total Amount of Customs Revenue collected there fbr the last six months was not more than £l5O. The Postmaster might easily discharge the duties of Collector of Customs, at a small increase of salary. He was satisfied that the duties of the Court would be conducted quite as satisfactorily by the Justices as they had been by the Resident Magistrate, because a great amount of work had been created to show that the appointment was necessary. Sir David Monro would support the motion of the honorable member for Wairau. It was one of those cases where the existence of a Resident Magistrate was not only not necessary but positively pernicious. Here was a country district which contained a rural population, where little squabbles arose from time to time. It also contained a sufficient number of educated and intelligent gentlemen in the commission of the peace, and he was at a loss to see why those gentlemen could not adjust matters of dispute. He was satisfied that they would never get into the way of doing it so long as there was a Resident Magistrate. The honorable member for Timaru could not see how the Justices were incapable of dis-

charging their duties. They would never perform them properly while others did it for them. If the duties were forced upon them by necessity, it would be found that they were perfectly capable of discharging them. Ministers had stated that the Province of Marlborough was in a state of insolvency, and therefore they might look upon this proposition with some degree of favor. Mr. Vogel said that the Government was quite willing to accept the assurance of honorable members that the duties would be satisfactorily performed. He would suggest that the item be reduced by £SO, as some notice would have to be given. Mr. Eyes did not see that it was neces sary to give any notice, as th * gentleman in question held other offices, but he would make no objection to the proposal of the honorable member. Item reduced by £SO, and item as amended agreed to. Mr. Eyes said tnat, under the Resident Magistrates Act, 1865, salaries of clerks and bailiffs were payable out of fees and fines received. The clerk and bailiff to the Petty Sessions Court, Blenheim, had some duties to perform, and had also to give security, but they had no salaries, because there were no fees or fines received. He thought these very hard cases. Proposed Justice for Marlborough . On the 19th, Mr. Vogel was called upon to move, For leave to introduce “The Marlborough and Nelson Union Bill, 1869.” He said that he would take the opportunity of stating the course which the Government intended to take in reference to this question. Many representations had been made to the Government that the union of Nelson and Marlborough would be distasteful to both Provinces. He thought the Government was not prepared to admit that when any Province had proved unable to fulfil the duties devolved upon it, and the Province was, as it were, thrown as a charge upon the Colony, the Assembly, in dealing with the question whether such a Province should be annexed to another, ought to be entirely bound by the wishes of the people of the collapsed Province. The Government were not prepared to admit that in such a ease the Assembly had not full discretion as to the manner ill which the affairs of the Province should be carried on ; but, in another respect, a very strong case was made out for Marlborough. It had been urged upon previous Governments, he was told, and notably upon the late Government, that Marlborough was peculiarly situated, owing to a considerable portion of the dutiable goods consumed within its boundaries having duty paid upon them in some other Province. He understood that enquiries had been made whether some plan could be devised to remedy this difficulty or grievance; but he was told that—unless by resorting to the principle of a capitation allowance, or by putting restrictions in the way of trade such as could not be contemplated—it was wholly inconsistent with the present system, as regarded Customs Revenue, that any approximate adjustment even could be arrived at. It could be ascertained what was the last port from which dutiable goods came before reaching Marlborough, but such knowledge would not supply evidence that the duty on those goods had not been paid at some other port in another Province. For instance, goods last from Nelson or Wellington might reach Marlborough, but the duty on these goods might have been paid in Otago. The Government felt that a proper dealing with so large and involved a question during the present session was altogether out of the question. But the Government admitted that gx-eat weight attached to the representations on behalf of Marlborough, to which he had referred, and the Government felt that the only course open at present was to look upon the case as a special one—to deal with it on the principle which, as he had been informed, was contended for on the previous night by those who supported the County of Glad-= stone Bill, namely, that certain portions of the Colony should be dealt with as exceptional cases. But he went no further than to say temporarily so. In presence of the doubt which had been raised whether Marlborough, if it really got the amount of Customs Revenue to which it was equitably entitled, might not be able properly to fulfil its Provincial duties, the Government felt that it would not be light to press upon the Province a forcible annexation to its neighbour, Nelson. Then came the question how Marlborough was to be enabled to continue its functions until the next session, when the whole question would no doubt be raised, of how the Provinces as a whole could best be enabled to get what equitably belonged to

each. The departmental head ot the Customs advised the Government that it would be impossible, fairly, even to approximate a division between the other Provinces of the amount of Customs Revenue to which Marlborough was entitled, on account of dutiable goods consumed in the Province, but the duty on which was paid elsewhere. Therefore, it appeared to the Government that the only available plan was to allow the necessary charge to fall upon the Colony as a whole. The Customs Revenue received in Marlborough last year amounted to £4,800, half of which belonged to the Province ; and the course which the Government proposed was, for the current year only, to allow Maidborough to enjoy the whole amount of the Customs Revenue received within its limits. It would not be necessary to bring in any special Bill for that purpose. The Govern* ment proposed to put a sum, say £3,000, on the Estimates, so as to allow monthly payments to be made to the Province, equivalent to one-half of its Customs Revenue, which it was proposed to bestow upon the Province. As some honorable members might wish to speak on the proposal now submitted by the Government, he would, pro forma , move the adjournment of the House. The Speaker thought that that would not be a regular motion. Mr. "Vogel was anxious not to shut out discussion. The Speaker presumed there would be other opportunities of debating the question. Mr. Vogel said since the amount would appear on the Supplementary Estimates, and these were rarely discussed, he could not hold out any promise on the subject if honorable members were not allowed to speak now.