Parliament of New Zealand.

Marlborough Express, Volume IV, Issue 185, 24 July 1869, Page 5

Parliament of New Zealand.

/ Abolition of the Provinces. The House went into, committee, on July 14, Mr. O’Eorke in the chair, to consider the following resolutions;— “ That this House, in pursuance of the financial resolution passed by it during its last session, will not consent to the constitution of any further subdivisions of the Colony receiving asharo of the consolidated revenue, and is of opinion that any measure providing for further constitutional changes should embrace the following principles: — (1.) That this House will raise no taxation from the people, except such as is sufficient to meet those general charges of Government, for which the officers expending the same are responsible to this House. (2.) That it is expedient that the taxation of the country should be immediately reduced in accordance with the above. (2.) That Provincial Government should cease to exist, and a system of Local Government be established throughout the Colony, (4.) That a local organization should be con-

stituted in every district which returns a member to this House, possessing full powers for management of local affairs therein.

(5.) That all loan charges should be paid by the Colonial Secretary. (6.) That the portion of such loan charges paid on account of any existing Province shall be repaid to the General Government out of the Land Fund arising within the boundaries of such Province.

(7.) That the remainder of the Land Fund should be distributed amongst the electoral districts in the proportion in which it has arisen. (8.) That it is imperatively necessary that a general scheme of colonisation should be immediately adopted for all parts of the Colony. ” Mr. Stevens, in moving these resolutions, said for some time past public attention had been drawn to the merits of the institutions, the advantages and disadvantages of which he invited the House to discuss. A feeling was growing up amongst those most competent to conduct public business of a disinclination to take part in provincial affairs, and educated men seem to think it necessary to apologise for going into Provincial Councils. This feeling was no doubt one of the causes of the introduction of the Local Government and Road Boards Bills into this House. A disposition to create counties had been exhibited. Last year it was urged that there were serious objections to the introduction of the county system into the country; some arguing in favor of the maintenance of provincial institutions, while others thought it was inadvisable, in the present state of the country, to establish the county system piecemeal, that the whole tendency of creating single counties was to place the minority at the mercy of the majority, and that the mode of proceeding was unconstitutional. He concurred in this opinion ; and thought that any new system of Government which might be instituted should be carried into effect throughout the country. But a still stronger objection was that by the establishment of counties piecemeal a number of weak provinces would be created. In fact, they thought it was likely to lead to experimenting being introduced into the country, and individual crotchets tried in particular localities. In pursuance of these opinions, a financial resolution was passed by the House, but a great difficulty arose in carrying it into effect, and in consequence the matter was suspended by the Government until it drifted into the public mind, and became more ventilated in the country. What he wished to start with was this, that if the resolution was important last year, it was still more important now, by reason of the war expenditure. He hoped to be able to show to the House a way of reaching as fair a settlement as could be attained. It was high time that all members of the House knew on which side they were to be. He did not go further than this resolution because belonging to a party which had not a majority in the House ; he did not feel justified in proposing the abolition of provincial institutions, but if such a proposal were brought forward he should support it. He did not see how any system for the future government of the country could be sound unless it was founded on the principle of the first resolution, and that resolution must necessarily be adopted. The hon. gentleman proceeded to examine the condition of the different provinces. It was of no use looking back to what had been done, except as a matter of history, they had to deal with what was under their eyes. In Auckland a strong dislike to Provincial Government was growing up ; it could not be expected that Taranaki should be in a state to carry on the business of colonisation, but little political feeling was exhibited there; the finances of Wellington were in an embarrassed state, and there was nothing to give any hope of its regaining a position to enable it to carry out the objects for which provincial institutions were established—in its political state it was divided, and that might be said of the whole of the rest of the provinces. The finances of Nelson and Hawke’s Bay were in an easy state; Marlborough was a pensioner upon the General Government ; Canterbury was just able to pay its way; Otago was the one bright spot, but was not adverse to change; Southland desired a change, and its financial position was unsatisfactory. He wished to know whether the House was to continue to allow money to be raised by the provinces without having any control to compel its application to the purposes for which it was voted. Before the end of the year three or four provinces would be in such a state that it would be impossible to galvanise them into a state of healthy action; while in the case of Marlborough and Southland, the question of annexation would have to be considered. But he was informed that the inhabitants of those provinces did not desire the proposed changes; and it was not proper that because people had got into monetary difficulties, they should be placed under administrations which they did not desire to live under. He hoped, before the session was over, it would be settled whether the provinces were to be a power in the state, or whether that Legislature should be supreme. He considered the latter should

be the case. It was part of the duty of the Provincial Governments to carry out colonisation. The hon. gentleman then quoted statistics to show the amounts expended by the Provincial Governments on education. It was the duty of the House to see that proper provision was made throughout the colony for education; but at present it had not that power. Immigration was another branch of colonisation ; but during the year 1868 only about £17,0C0 was spent on that object by the provinces. He had endeavored to put himself in the position of colonists of various occupations, and had entirely failed to see that provincial institutions were conducive to their interests. These institutions were powerless for good. Let them either make provincial institutions strong, if they could, or dispense with them altogether. The existing state of things could not last long; they must either go forward or back. At present neither the General Legislature was strong, Ho less than £10,400 a year was now spent upon, provincial legislation; and there was not the slightest reason why a number of gentlemen should occupy weeks of valuable time in discussing a fencing ordinance, or the introduction of this or that; all the legislation necessary for the country could be done by the General Assembly. "What was intended to be expressed by the second resolution was, that as it was intended to introduce a system altering the taxation, the possibility of a reduction of taxation should be admitted. He was, however, distinctly of opinion that a reduction might be Jmade in the taxation now if it was thought desirable. The resolutions dealt with about half of the revenue ; and after the charges on loans, police, gaols, &c., had been provided for, a very considerable balance would remain to be appropriated by the House. Wherever it was possible, the expenditure in the local districts should be made directly by the General Government, but where communication was difficult, an officer should be appointed to administer the expenditure voted by the House for the district. Until this was done we should never have a united colony, a public opinion ; nor would they be able to meet in that House with full advantage to the colony. They ought to be there as members for the colony, to deal with colonial affairs, leaving strictly local affairs to be dealt with by the districts themselves. At the present time, localism, pure and simple, was at the bottom of everything done in the House. In the appointment of select committees, and in the formation of Ministriesj the first consideration was that every province should be represented. The result of this was that no real measures of reform dealing with the circumstances of the country could be introduced ; nor would a strong Ministry ever be formed so long as this feeling existed. In the present difficulties, they could never meet with unbiassed minds, and pass any measure until they had got something from the Cabinet. He was not afraid, if his resolutions were carried, that it would result in the establishment of a bureaucratic system; but they would get rid of a power standing between the House and the people. There was no reason why that Legislature should not vote money for public works as well as Provincial Councils, and take measures for its expenditure. Local public works should be entrusted to boards, while larger works, such as railways, should be under the supervision of the House. At present such works were carried on without any eye to the future. The disposal of the provincial property was a very slight difficulty. In some places the buildings would be required for administration, and others would be needed for different purposes. Some existing large public works might be credited to the land fund. The Waste Lands Boards would remain as at present. It would be inadvisable, in some instances, to retain the existing boundaries of the provinces ; but in this matter, means of communication must be chiefly regarded. As to the provincial debts, they must localise the loans so far as the security would go. The loan charges should, as far as possible, be paid out of land revenue and pasturage rents; and the balance handed over to the road boards By the Public Debts Act, the colony had placed itself in the position of being compelled to keep up a heavy taxation for years, should it become necessary to meet the loan charges of any province by reason of the latter being unable to pay themselves. In order to get out of this difficulty, the best plan would be, in the case of those provinces which had no land fund, to realise their assets, place the sum thus obtained against their loans, and let the colony pay the difference. Ho wished the House to consider how the country was to go on; unless a comprehensive scheme of immigration were at once introduced. The state of labor at present was such as absolutely to;preclude capital being brought into the? country. Was-the House going to let the country drift into a state of atrophy for want of a due consideration of this matter.

The question was a difficult one, but the House would have to meet it, since the provincial legislatures had no funds to expend on immigration, and it would be highly improper for the House to grant them assistance for this purpose. They must look to the consolidated fund as the basis of any operation of this sort that might be carried on, since it would receive the benefit of the immigration. The operation would be best carried out by an independent Board ; and by appointing a permanent Board, the best security would be given to the country of the system being carried out with fairness. He trusted the House would not separate without taking measures for the establishment of a comprehensive system of immigration. The hon. gentleman concluded by expressing his conviction that the resolution, if carried into effect, would unite the colony in a strong nationality. (Cheers.) The Hon. Dillon Bell would make a few remarks on the speech of the hon. member for Selwyn, lest it should be supposed no reply could be made to them. It was obviously inconvenient that private members should bring forward resolutions professing to deal with a large subject, and thus traversing the action of the Government, while he would not himself be personally responsible for carrying the resolutions into effect. The resolutions, in their present form, enunciated an impossible policy, and for all the use they would be in the present circumstances of the colony, the hon. memmight have saved himself the trouble of bring them forward. If it were determined to make no constitutional changes, the resolutions would be useless; and the hon. member must be aware that the Government contemplated no constitutional changes until the people had been consulted. The late Government had, by its actions, shewn itself to be possessed of an animosity towards the Provincial Governments; and he was surprised that his hon. friend should come down with these resolutions, after having assented to the fundamental proposition which they all agreed to last year—that the people should be consulted before any constitutional changes were made. He was not an ultra-provincialist, but he recognised the great work accomplished by provincial institutions, and had the provincial system, as it was originally established, been carried out, it would have been the best possible system for carrying out the colonisation of the colony. Did the hon. gentleman, in the first resolution, include the interest and sinking fund on the public debt ? [Mr. Stevens: Certainly.] Hon. members who fancied that by economy in the departments any appreciable savings might be made in the share of the consolidated fund paid to the provinces, laboured under a complete delusion. It was highly important that the people should not be led to suppose that by the abolition of the provincial system any considerable reduction could be made in the taxation of the country. In the year 1868 the share of the consolidated fund paid to the provinces amounted to £313,014, while the expenditure of the provinces in interest and sinking fund, administration of justice, hospitals, lunatic asylums, and education, amounted to £368,000. Even if the cost of education w re deducted, £21,352 would still remain as a debit balance against the provinces; so that, if the provincial system were abolished, no portion of the provincial share of the consolidated fund would remain for appropriation by the General Assembly. Last year over £15,000 was spent for charitable aid, and this would have to be provided for by the Assembly. It might be said that if these liabilities were taken over the General Government might also take over the local revenue, but he had on a previous occasion shown that it was absorbed in other ways. If they exhausted everything save local taxation by rates, there would still be a balance against them. He was not disposed to gainsay that one central administration would not be cheaper than a number of provincial administrations ; but at present they had no enc' u agement to exchange the present system for a bureaucratic one. But before any change of this sort was made the people ought to be allowed to express their opinions. But if they could not economise on the provincial share of the consolidated revenue, still less could they do so on the share for appropriation by the House. The permanent charges alone amounted to £426,000 ; while the consolidated revenue last year only amounted to about £1,000,000. It would have been more fair towards the Government, on the part of the hon. member for Selwyn, had he shown how the taxation could be reduced, instead of putting on the records of the House a resolution calling upon the Government to reduce the taxation. He was not going to discuss the questions contained in the third and fourth resolutions. He had always’ been an advocate for local affairs being left to the management of local boards; but he would never consent to a fundamental change being made in the institutions under which we had lived before the constituencies

had expressed an opinion on the subject. His hon. Mend appeared to have lost sight of the true spirit of the land fund. In Auckland the intez-est and sinking fund on the loans lai’gely succeeded the territorial (including the gold) revenue, and the colony would, according to these resolutions, have to pay the difference ; which meant that Otago and other provinces would have to pay the loan charges of Auckland. It was perfectly outrageous to suppose that the colony would submit to be taxed for the purpose of paying tho interest on public wozks for which it received no benefit whatever. When his hon. friend came to the House with some equitable scheme of adjustment between the provinces, in respect to their indebtedness, then he wouid receive the attentive consideration of the House to resolutions like the fifth and sixth ; but his present proposal was so inequitable that it could not be entez-tained. The seventh resolution was fundamentally unjust, since under it the balance of its land fund would be handed back, say, to Canterbury, while Otago would have to pay a portion of the loan charges of Auckland. The abolition of provincial institutions, and the establishment of a general system of government, necessarily involved the throwing of the whole revenue into one treasury. The seventh resolution was absurd and unjust. The land fund was always intended to be devoted to colonisation; but did the hon. member suppose that, after the land fund had been distributed amongst the electoral districts, the people would consent to be taxed for the purpose of immigration. But the hon. member did not ask for increased taxation; he asked tho House to reduce the taxation. Although he (Mr. Bell) should like to see a reduction of taxation, and agreed with many of the principles of the resolutions, yet they were quite unsuited to the circumstances of the country, and placed the Government in a difficult position. The hon. member, had omitted all mention of the County of Westland. The Government did not propose to move any amendment to the resolutions, but the figures he had quoted would show that the House ought not to assent to them. Mr. Hall made a personal explanation. Mr. Tkaveus moved that the chairman do report progress and ask leave to sit again. The motion was agreed to, progress reported, and leave granted to sit again on Thursday.

On the 15th instant, the debate was continued by Mr. Travers, who spoke against the motion ; referring to Kelson, he said there had ever been a determined opposition to immigration, which policy was forced on the Government by the great majority of the people from the most paltry motives—that of keeping up wages at a high rate. With an enormous Land Fund —enormous, looking at the extent of land at the command of the Province, if it had chosen to turn that land to proper account —the Province could have been filled with people, instead of the largest portion of it being divided into a dozen or two of sheep runs. The whole of the ISTelson country south of the Clarence River—country including some of the most fertile land in the Middle Island—was left without a road through it, and with its rivers unbridged. True, one gentleman had put a bridge across the Waiau, for communication with his own domains, and there was a small bridge across that river at another part. But with those two exceptions, the greater part of the country between the Hurunui and the Waimea Valley, a tract nearly 150 miles long, was without a road or bridge worth being so called. What were merely side cuttings, though purporting to be roads, were so absolutely vile as to be dangerous after a shower of rain ; and it was scarcely pos sible to extract a shilling from the Government for the purpose of preserving anything like means of communication between the two. While such a state of things existed—while great stretches of country that ought to be civilised are left as savage wilds, occupied by a few shepherds, and without any means of fairly reaching them—it was impossible that there could be anything like a sound system of colonisation. The Province of Kelson had thrown away its opportunity by converting its most fertile country into sheep farms, and had adopted, with regard to its lands, a system of sale as vile as could be adopted by any community. The consequence was that the land, or a very large proportion of it, was in the hands of proprietors from whom what was necessary would have to be acquired, whenever the necessity for making roads was recognised.” The remainder of the speech is well worth reading. He remarked that people always cried out against Provincial Institutions when close pressed by circumstances, and showed what reforms were really requisite.

Mr. Carleton denounced the cry against the Provinces as nothing more than a battle between ’town and country, and believed in pax-ish constables for towns, paid out of rates, in preference to the present expensive police, but supported the resolutions.

Mi*. Vogel showed how the proposed change, like other proposals emanating from the same party, tended to the one direction—of placing Canterbuiy in a better position, and doing thereby a great injury to Auckland and Otago. He analysed the proposals of last yeax*, which would have caused a gain in the x*eckoning with Maryborough of £IOOO, and a loss to Taranaki of £llO. Hall’s plan would have caused a loss to Otago of £19,000 ; Auckland, £12,000 ; Nelson, £14,500 ; Wellington, £4,000 ; Hawke’s Bay, £6OO ; Westland, £17,000 ; whilst Canterbury would have gained £27,000 ; Southland, £22,000 ; Taranaki, £I,BOO ; and Marlborough, £2,800. Undcr the present proposal of the lionorable member for Selwyn, you cannot say what would be the loss or gain to the Provinces, because you ax*e going to sweep them away, but the amount which would revert to the consolidated revenue may be divided thus in respect to the whole yeax*. As I said before, there will be about £76,000 for the six months, or about £150,000 for the twelve months. Of that £150,000 Otago would have to give up £58,000 ; Auckland, £27,000 ; Nelson, £24,000; Wellington, £15,000 ; Canterbury, £13,500 ; Westland, £IO,OOO ; Hawke’s Bay, £4,500 ; Southland, £4,000 ; whilst Tai’anaki and Marlborough, on the wrong side of the book, would have gained £I,OOO, and £3,000 respectively. Now, Sir, I think honorable members will see a method in the madness of the honorable member. Mr. Vogel, in reply to questions, then went on to show that the sums given would revert to the consolidated revenue from the provinces relinquishing them, and exposed the absurdity of the scheme, and affirmed that Canterbury was always destined to gaixx by whatever scheme her finaxxciug xnembers brought forward.

On July 16th tlie debate was resumed, when Mr. Rolleston spoke in favor, and Mr. Stafford against the resolutions. The hitter considered some change necessary. Mr. Ormond spoke strongly against the motion, and in favor of the Provinces, believing them the best means of colonisation, and moved an amendment to the effect that “ in the present condition of the. colony it is inopportune to decide questions of great constitutional changes,” that they should be left to a new Parliament, and that the grave difficulties of the country will not allow of a reduction of taxation; Mr. Richmond went in dead against Provincial Institutions, and considered that the great reason for a change lay in the great dynastic struggle going on. Mr. C. Wilson spoke against the motion, and refused to consider any great question until peace was restored. Mr. Potts was in favor, and Mr. Bunny spoke against Provincialism, but was not prepared to go in for the motion. Mr. Fitzherbert made a splendid speech, entering into the whole history of the Provinces, and closed by requesting Mr. Stevens to withdraw his motion. Mr. 'Reynolds denounced the resolutions as Utopian, and considered the ftouse was only wasting time in discussing them. •Mr. Stevens replied, after which Mr. Ormond’s amendment was put, and carried on division by 33 to 22, as follows— Ayes.—Messrs. Rail; Barff, Bradshaw, Bunny, Clark, Curtis, Gallagher, Haultain, Kerr, Ludlam, Munro, Patterson, Potts, Richmond, Rolleston, Russell, Stafford, Swan, Tancred, and Wells 3 Tellers.— Kenny and Stevens. . Noes, 33.—Messrs. Armstrong, Baigent, Bell, Cargill, Collins, Creighton, Diguan, Edwards, Eyes, Farnall, Featherston, Fox, Graham, Hankinson, H. S. Harrison, Heaphy, Howorth, Kelly, Main, M‘Lean, Macandrew, Mete Kingi, O’Neill, Parker, Peacocke, Reynolds, Tareha, Taylor, Williamson, Wilson, and Wood : Tellers.— Driver and Ormond. p a irs.—For : Mr. Farmer 3 against: Mr. Brandon.

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