New Zealand Parliament.

Marlborough Express, Volume III, Issue 145, 21 November 1868, Page 5

New Zealand Parliament.

EXTRACTS FROM “ HANSARD.”

Awatere Shearing Reserves Bill

In the House of Representatives, on Oct. 16, Mr. Brown moved that this Bill be now read a second time.

Mr. Eyes said that he should have opposed the Bill at an earlier stage, but he was unfortunately absent through indisposition when it was read a second time. The Bill originated with the Legislative Council, and was brought before that branch of the Legislature in consequence of a peti tion addressed to it, a similar petition having also been addressed to that House. The petition was from seven run-holders in the Province of Marlborough, who complained that what they assumed to be a right was to be taken away from them. He thought he should be able to prove to the House that instead of there being apy attempt to deprive them of that right, it was rather securing to them the privilege of making use of that reserve as a shearing ground. The petition was signed by seven persons, but. out of those only two had ever exercised the privilege of shearing on the reserve, and those two persons applied to the Provincial Government to have a lease of this reserve. If the lease had been granted to them,, the House would have heaid nothing, at all about it ; but; as they were' too late, and the lease had been promised to another penidh, - that * House was called upon to do what amounted' to an interference with provincial legislation, without any. grounds to show that injustice was being done to any one The . reserve contained ;l%oop gores, and was only used by two persons. .The Provincial Government, fueling.that,those,persons were, having the'use of a large piece of Crown land without the Province receiving any return, considered that it was only right that a small yearly sum should be paid by way of rental, Last June twelve months a BUI

was passed by the Provincial Council, in which a power was given to the Superintendent to lease the reserve upon such terms and conditions as he thought best for the good of the Province. Remarks had been made in an influential quarter prejudicial to himself, which he thought it was only right to rebut, to the effect that, previous to the passing of the Bill through the Provincial Council, no division was ever called for ; there was not a single dissentient voice as to its becoming law; and the person who holds the lease applied for it in the month of November following ; and although he had the promise ol a lease, it had not been signed. The other persons applied for the lease in the month of February succeeding, but found that they had been forestalled. He asked the House to pause before assenting to such a measure. He recollected, in 1863, a Bill was passed by the Provincial Council of Nelson, affecting materially the Province of Marlborough, and by which he (Mr Eyes) was a loser to the extent of many thousands of pounds. He remembered asking the House at that time to postpone the coming into operation of that Act for a month or two, until the Provincial Council could meet again, and have an opportunity of rectifying an error. That House refused to consent, on the ground that it would be an unwarrantable interference with provincial legislation. They were now asked by two individuals to upset the legislation of the whole Province of Marlborough. He could not think that the gentlemen on the Government Benches would so far stultify themselves as to agree to it, when it was only a few months since that they advised the Ordinance in question to become law. The Government were at all events bound to afford him their support in throwing out the Bill. He begged to move that the Bill be read a third time that day six months. Mr. Stafford trusted the honorable gentleman would not press his motion. He was bound to say that, after careful consideration of the case, and knowing some of the circumstances connected with it, he thought the Bill was a justifiable one. He did not expect that there could be any beneficial occupation of the upper part of the A watere unless there were some means of getting the sheep shorn lower down where there were roads. They could not reasonably hope, within any fair period of time, that funds would be forthcoming to make a road to the top of the A watere, as the cost would be very great. His belief was fortified by the fact that, during sixteen years, no government had attempted to make a road to the upper part of the A watere, and he did not believe that for the next fifty years a road would be made. He bad thought it most desirable to make the reserve, and shortly after the reserve was made, a considerable number of runs were taken up, and the country was fully occupied in a short time, so that the making of the reserve conduced to the land being taken up. It might be quite true that only two persons had as yet used that reserve, but they had made arrangements for shearing their sheep on runs lower down. He could not but vote for the passing of this Bill, although he did so with reluctance, as he did not desire to intei'fere with the Bill that had been passed by the Provincial Council. Had his attention, however, been drawn to the fact that that particular reserve was included in the schedule to the Provincial Bill, he should have advised the Governor not to assent to it.

The question that the word “ now” stand part of the question, was put and carried. On the question that the Bill be read a third time, the House divided, with the following result:— Ayes, 11; noes, 14 ; majority against, 3.

'/'Ayes—Messrs. Clark, Hall, Haultain, Ludlam, ,T. Macfarlane, Mervyn, Richmond, Stafford, and Wells; Tellers , Major Brown, and Mr. Collins. Noes—Messrs. Baigent, Barff, Bradshaw, Bunny, Gallagher, W. H. Harrison, Haughton, Major Heaphy, "V.C., Kerr, C. O’Neill, Swan, and Williamson ; Tellers., Messrs. Eyes and Parker. Aioatere Shearing Reserves Leasing SuspenxIn the Legislative Council, on October 17th, the Hon. Mr. Setmoue said that a Bill which had passed through the Council on this subject, dealing with the lease in question for all time, had been rejected in another pla&e, on the ground that it was an undue interference with provincial interests ; but honorable members who had voted against ithad informed him that they would support the passing of a measure to suspend action in the matter till next session, so that the case might be properly considered.

He therefore wished to ask the leave.ofthe Council to introduce a Bill to that effect. The Hon. Dr. Pollen wished to point out to the honorable member that many difficulties were in the way of having the Bill passed. It would have to be printed, and then even the point might be raised that matters of the same kind should not be considered twice during the same session.. The Hon. the Speaker thought, as the Bill was merely to suspend action in a case which the rejected Bill was intended to settle, the subject was sufficiently different to allow the Bill to be introduced. The Bill was read a first and second time, considered in Committee, reported without amendment, and read a third time and passed. In the House of Representatives on OctJ 19, Mr. Collins moved the recond reading of the above Bill.

Mr. Eyes said that it appeared to him that that was an attempt by a side wind to upset what had taken place on a previous sitting, when the Awatere Shearing Reserves Bill was thrown out on the third reading. They had now another Bill introduced exactly similar in its character, except that it limited the duration of the action of the Provincial Government to, twelve months. He hoped the House would not assent to the second reading of the Bill, especially as no reason had been given why such a measure should be passed. The honorable member for Picton, who had charge of the first Bill, did not seem inclined to move in the matter himself. He hoped the House would not, by agreeing to the motion, upset the decision come to on a previous evening. He should divide the House on the question, as he did not consider it to be a proper way of dealing with the matter. He could assure the House that no injustice had been done, or was contemplated to be done, to any person. He would move that the Bill be ordered to be read a second time that day six months. Captain Kenny said that as the honorable member for Wairau had assumed that he was indifferent upon this question, it was desirable that he should state that indisposition had prevented him from proceeding with the charge of the Bill. In one sense, the honorable member was right in saying that he was indifferent, inasmuch as he was not personally interested in the Bill; but as to taking charge of the Bill, the honorable member was not'right in saying that he was indifferent. He wished the Bill to be passed because he believed it to be an act of simple justice. It appeared to him that it was simply a question of interference with and a breach of a public contract. He had explained, on the second reading of the previous Bill that a block of land was set aside as a shearing reserve in the Awatere district, which was unapproachable except an enormous expense was gone to in road making, and therefore it was utterly useless. To meet the difficulty the Nelson Provincial Government reserved a block of country for a shearing reserve, so that persons could drive their sheep down to shear them there. • It appeared to him that any interference by the Provincial Council with the arrangement which the Provincial Government had made with the sheepowners in that part of the country would be manifestly a breach of public faith. The present Superintendent of Marlborough then thought that no injustice had been done, inasmuch as he had insisted on certain conditions being carried out by the present lessee, and, however favourable those conditions might be, any interference would be an invasion of a private right. The present lessee might be a very honorable man, and be prepared to carry out, in a botia fide spirit, the arrangement made ; still, they knew very well that, in such cases, the lessee had the power of interference in many ways, and of making the arrangement a dead letter. He did not say that he would do it, but he had tho power to do it. He understood the reserve had been leased to a gentleman for £BB per annum. He had also been informed that one firm alone, holding a run in the country, paid £SO a year for a number of sheep that would be shorn, and the presumption was that others would pay the same proportion, and there would be a large sum paid in excess of the amount paid by the lessee, and, in that point of view, there would be aloss to the Province. The lessee would-have the right of depasturing sheep in the count ry during the period of the year when it would; tt<>t be used by sheep farmers. That would be a considerable advantage to the lessee, while it must affect the amount of feed that' would be available at shearing time. Certain buildings had been erected, arid improvements made by soine of the run holders on the Awatere, and he did not know whetherany compensation had been allowed. Putting aside the various minor circumstances that aggravated the injustice, the simple fact remained that that portion of the country which was set apart in order to facilitate the occupation of the Awatere would be practically useless to those who 1 . *

dfesircd to take- up 'tixe -cdtintryj ; for shearingpurposes. 1 Th’eproceetim-e was about as % Would‘btpto lease a road, Which h'ad beert 'rnade for the Tise bf ah agricultural district, td apriv'ate individual. He did jhot khbW that he could state the case in a ’more forcible manner -than by pointing out thht that’reserve stood in relation to the HfipifrAwatbre’ which a road did to an or- ! Agricultural and that the leasing of it would be tantamount to depriving the agricultural settlers of the use of the road.

Mr. Btrkirsr would support the second ’reading of the Bill. The effect of passing J fhe Bill would simply he to postpone the - signature to’the lease, and he did not see that any injury Would he done to the lessee ♦thereby. It would he better to delay the

execution of the lease till next session. , Mr. Hall said the honorable member for : Wairarapa had almost anticipated the remarks he was about to make. Whatever might he the opinion of some honorable "members on that question, there was no - doubt that it was desirable, as large inter-

ests were very seriously affected, that in • absence of complete information, which it - was desirable. the House should have, to -keep matters in the present condition until ’-next session. Bather than allow an injury ' to 1 be done to considerable interests which it

■might he difficult to repair, it was thenduty to maintain things in statu quo until ; the Assembly met again, when both parties, if they thought proper, could come before the House with a fuller statement of the case than they had yet laid before them. Mr. Collins, in reply, said he supported the Bill because it was a measure of justice. He had no personal interest in the matter,

' but be could not belp thinking tbat an in- “ justice was being done to those gentlemen ' who had taken runs in the expectation that they would have the use of it. He had ■ heard a report in regard to certain objections that might have influenced a certain honorable member. He had heard that the gentleman who had leased that run had " been against the Provincial Government of ‘ Marlborough, and at the same time the lease f '- was granted he turned round and became a ' supporter. He would refer to that as being a curious coincidence. He was not sur- ; prised at the honorable member forWairau " taking the part of the Superintendent of Marlborough. It was very true that some '. of the runholders did not use that shearing ground, which might be brought forward as an argument in favor of the other side ; but they did not do so because they had other runs in other places where they sheared ■‘their;sheep. They had taken those runs ‘ under the impression that they were to have ■ "that shearing ground, and in all honor and ' justice it should not be taken from them. ' 1 The amendment was then put and nega--1 tived.' , J . On the question that the Bill be now read a second time, Mr. Eyes said that he thought he had been treated unfairly in the remarks made ' by the last speaker. The honorable gentlef - man made similar statements to him in the lobby, and he gave them his emphatic denial, at the same time stating that the inforJ matron he had received had not the slightest foundation in truth; that Mr. Mcßae was not an Opponent of his, and that the Bill ! had not only his sanction and that of every member in the Council, but that it was actually brought forward by those who were opposed, to'.him (Mr. Eyes). It had been constantly dinned into his ears that the reserve was lying idle and unproductive, and that it might be made to return a small sum to the revenue. .He wished to deny the

statement of the honorable member for Pictoil'that there •was a contract. There was no contract whatever entered into ; hut, on the contrary; the reserve was made after the leases had been taken out by the runholders; and, was ah after-thought. There was really iro : injustice done tb any person, and they would never have heard anything about this [Bill, or the Awatere - Shearing ; Reserve. Bill,' but for, the reason that the person who wanted to get the lease, did not L get it he was forestalled in making ’his application. He thought the House was interfering very improperly with provincial legislation, and he warned honorable mem..hers j against doing what waS after all an injustice'to the.Province!' Any.person in-; vesting in sheep could go and put them on the reserve in question without paying for the use of it. The Act limited the number of persons who were entitled to go on the - reserve.- ‘' He had no doubt, after the action which the House was going to take in the matter, that the gentleman tb whom the lease had been promised would put his sheep bn it at once, iii’order to secure it, and he (Mr. Eyes) should certainly advise, him to do so. The Bill was then read a second time, considered in Committee, reported to the House without amendment, read a third time, and passed.