Marlborough Provincial Council.

Marlborough Express, Volume III, Issue 108, 21 March 1868, Page 3

Marlborough Provincial Council.

TUESDAY, MARCH 17th, 1868. The Eighteenth Session of the Council commenced at two p.m. Present: His Honor the Superintendent, Messrs. Wemyss, Ward, Eyles, H. Godfrey, Greensill, Mcßae, Dodson, Robinson, Redwood, Conolly, Carter, and J. Godfrey ; the Speaker in the chair. His Honor the Superintendent Pearl the following address : “Mr. Speaker and Gentlemen of the Provincial Council, — “The present unsatisfactory financial position of the Province, caused in a great measure by the working of the “ Public Revenues Act,” and the great amount of damage done to the roads and bridges by the unprecedented and disastrous flood, by which this Province, in common with the greater part of the middle Island, was visited last mouth, has caused me to anticipate the close of the financial year, and to seek your advice and counsel at a time that I fear may be inconvenient for many of you to give your attendance. “I am desirous also of obtaining from you an expression of opinion upon several important subjects, involving the relation now existing between the Province and the General Government of the Colony, as it is generally understood that the adaptability of Provincial institutions to the present state of the Colony will form the subject of the most earnest consideration during the coming session of the General Legislature. “To this Province individually, I conceive that the most important portion of any scheme of reform which may be introduced, will be the mode of the partition of the Revenue, and we may congratulate ourselves that any change must be for the better. Unfairly deprived of our Customs Revenue, our Land Fund is made to supply the deficiency in the General Government expenditure, provincially charged, and unless some steps are taken to reduce that expenditure, or to credit the Province with its fair share of ordinary revenue, the amount derived from the sale or leases of Crown Land will not do more than suffice for the maintenance of the necessary branches of the Public Service, including Police, Gaol, Hospital, and Charitable aid. Estimates proposing a very considerable reduction in every department of the Provincial service will be laid before you. This reduction is rendered absolutely necessary by our diminished revenue. Should, however, our financial position be improved by any action of of the General Legislature during the next session, I should consider it my duty to call you together, at an early date, after the prorogation of that body, to ask you to vote supplementary supplies for various objects, and for placing the salaries of the different Provincial Officers upon the same scale as at present. “ The introduction of some more satisfactory scheme for Education than that afforded by the Act at present in force, has received the earnest and serious consideration of the Executive Council during the recess ; but the uncertainty of our position as a Province, and the many doubts that have been raised as to the Legislative powers of the Provinces, have decided me not to bring before you any measure for amending the Education Act, and 1 have been similarly influenced with regard to The Road Act, 1867, which expires at the end of the next session of the Genei’al Assembly. Legislation, however, upon these subjects must necessarily take place, either by the local Legislatures with extended powers, or by the Colonial Parliament. “Two or three Bills of minor import, and supplementary estimates to provide funds for the immediate repairs of roads and bridges will be laid before you.

“ W. H. Eyes, Superintendent. *’ His Honor then declared the Council open for the despatch of business. The Speaker laid on the table a letter his Honor had received from the Provincial Auditor, enclosing balance sheet of expenditure, &c., and five special orders by his Honor the Superintendent for expenditure not authorised by the Council. His Honor the Superintendent laid on the table the Estimates of proposed expenditure for the year 1868-9. Mr. Conolly presented a petition from Messrs. Bowden, sheep - farmers in the Sound, stating that by reason of certain lands they held under lease from the Government being taken under an Act of the General Assembly, they had sustained considerable injury, and praying for compensation, He moved that it be received. Petition received.

Mr. Eyes moved the first reading of a Bill, empowering the Superintendent to sell a portion of the public reserves, known as the Awatere Shearing Reserve. Mr. Wemyss seconded the motion, which was carried.

Mr. Eyes moved the first reading of a Bill, entitled “ An Act to provide for the Management of Public Cemeteries for the Province of Marlborough.”

,Mr. Ward seconded the motion, which was carried.

Mr. Eyes moved an adjournment till the following day. Mr. J. Godfrey moved as a matter of form that the Council adjourn till next Wednesday week. By the resignation of certain members, the Council was deprived of its full number, and some districts of being properly represented. It was to be regretted that such members had not resigned before, so that fresh elections should have taken place by the meeting of Council. Other members happened to be out of the province upon their Own special

business ; others during the week mighl be engaged upon a cricket match. Bill whether members were away upon business or sport, upon grounds of justice he considered the Government were extremely faulty in not giving fuller notice of a sit ting of Council, and reasonable intimation of the proposals of Government in such an important crisis as had now, from one reason or another, come over tins unfortunate province. He knew well enough that at present the Government had the Council at their back, but that did not deter him from moving for time to allow members to come up themselves and think over the measures of the Government. Mr. Conolly seconded. He would add* and he was extremely soi-ry to have to do so, that no papers had been forwarded td members previous to the sitting; They were expected to accept at once whatever was offei’ed. Estimates on a totally different scale were submitted for instant approval. There was little income, and he would move that they went into these matters deliberately. Mr. Godfrey said it was the attempt tc hurry on all at once that he objected to. Mr. Byes said all present must be aware of the present position of affairs as well as the Government, and that there could be little work this session. He had no wish to hurry anything through the Council; The proposals of the Government were only brought out. The Provincial Secre tary might move anything, but it lay witl the Council to decide upon it. It was really nothing to the Government, more than to any other person who wished tc see the province managed in the most advisable manner; that some members were at a distance was a different; thing and which they could not help; The Tus Marina was certainly suffering injustice from not having its full amount of representation, but that was the fault of Mr Godfrey’s own friends. They had to take these things into consideration, if they wanted to do justice to members who hac travelled a considerable distance, certainly not with the intention of their travel being in vain. Other two absent members were aware that they sat now ; He would ask if it was reasonable to adjourn the Counci for the private matters of two or three members. Mn Conolly had stated good reasons for proposing an adjournment; in short the papers had not been forwarded tc members as usual Mr. Eyes did not see the use of printing papers uselessly; He had given notice tc suspend Standing Order Ho. 51, and if was his intention to explain nest day. One reason for not printing was, that the estimated income of revenue Vvas nevei known till they went into Committee, when the Treasurer made an estimate o; income; Such was the practice of the General Assembly. He could not see anj reason for adjourning; as he saw around him many who had attended at consider able inconvenience. Mr. Godfrey’s amendment being put, and a division called for, the amendmeni was lost. Ayes—Messrs. Conolly, Greensill, and J Godfrey. Hoes—Messrs. Eyes, Wemyss, Ward Carter, Eyles, M’Rae, H. Godfrey, Dod son, and Robinson. The Council then adjourned. WEDNESDAY, ISth. The Council met at 11 a.m. Present Messrs. Eyes, Wemyss, Eyles, J. Godfrey Conolly, Dodson, Robinson, Douslin, Ward M’Rae, and Carter. The minutes of the preceding day were confirmed; Mr. Conolly presented a petition fron Benjamin Bomford of Blenheim, whici stated that he had occasion to bring an ac tion against the Provincial Government relative to a right of way, and he had beer compelled to submit to a nonsuit, and costil were adjudged against him ; he prayed the Council to recommend the Superintendeni not to claim payment of said costs. The petition was received. Unauthorised Expendiiui'ei Mr. Wemyss moved the following—- “ That the Provincial Council of Marlborougl requests His Honor the Superintendent to sene to the Council a recommendation to grant a sun of Six Hundred and Ninety-seven Pounds seven teen Shillings sterling (£697 17s;) to meet tin Unauthorised Expenditure for the unde'rmention ed services, for which he has issued Specif Orders to the Provincial Auditor to certify:— Sept. Pelorus Bridge ... £23 18 0 Nov. Pelorus Bridge ... 220 0 0 Jan. Advance to General Government on Telegraph account 138 12 0 f , Valuation of Property, Waihopai Reserve ... 165 7 0 Feb. Opaws Bridge ... 160 0 0 1

He stated that the Council was in recess when these items were expended. With reference to the first item, (Pelorus Bridge) the expenditure was incurred by sending Mr Dousliu to inspect the structure which had been repi-esented as in a state dangerous to passengers, and even likely to go down the river should nothing be done to it. It was also necessary to incur the expense ot inspection afterwards to see that the work had been properly carried out. The item also included a sum given to Mr Haiiwright for plans of the work. The advance to the General Government on Telegraphic account was rendered necessary by certain action taken by it in respect of part of the payment to contractors for clearing a space a chain wide on the line between Picton and the Heringa, they paying half the cost. The contract was afterwards altered for certain reasons, making a difference of 3s. a chain extra measurement. Through some misunderstanding the General Government would not pay this £l3B 12s. As the contractor desired to leave the province, the Provincial Government took upon themselves to pay the amount. The last time the Superintendent was in Wellington, the Ministry gave him to understand the money would be refunded. With respect to the valuation of property at the Waihopai Reserve, it was an understanding that when a tenant left, the property should be taken over by the Government at a valuation, which until now, they had not been called upon to pay. As to the Opawa Bridge, a further sum was still due, which the Council would be called upon to grant. Mr. J. Godfrey would call for a division. If the Council indemnified the Superintendent, he would ask whether he (the Superintendent) had the power to issue more of that sort of document during the year. If there was such a power, he would divide against the motion. He would refer to the employment of members of Council without the sanction of Council, as suggested by the first item. It was not the usual practice that members received such emoluments. He would vote against one item on that account. They^-ought to have consulted the Council prior to such expenditure.

Mr. Dodson said it was objected that members of Council should do work under the Government; but if a member was quite competent to survey land, it was quite competent for the Government to employ him to do so. It was absurd to suppose that before the Government was justified in providing any employment to a member, the Council should be convened ; all they had to consider was, whether they got the worth of their money or not; and in this instance the member was as competent to value the work as any one in the province, and the Government were justified in availing themselves of his services, though he was a member of Council. Mr. Wemyss would reply that the Audit Act permitted only a twentieth part of the previous vote to be expended by Superintendent’s order within the limits of the financial year. The Superintendent could not issue more of these special orders till the end of the financial year. Regarding members doing services for the Government, it had always been allowed that services should be rendered, and contracts entered into by members. Mr. Eyes moved that the debate be adjourned till to-morrow. Mr. J. Godfrey said it was not competent to move the adjournment of the debate after an amendment had been proposed. Mi. Eyes, before dividing, would call attention to Rule 17 of Standing Orders. The Speaker ruled that when a reply had been made to a debate, the debate was considered closed, and that rule could not apply. Upon a division, there were— Ayes : Messrs. Eyes, Wemyss, Eyles, Conolly, Dodson, Robinson, Ward, McRae, and Garter. ISToes : John Godfrey. ; Declined to vote : Mr. Douslin. Mr. Douslin, before the division, wished to recall his vote and record for the ayes. Mr. Ward considered till a division was ...declared, they might adopt an alteration. He had himself altered his vote again and again, calling out one thing and then saying he meant another. It was nothing to the purpose whether the head of the Government or the tail of the Opposition, (laughter.) spoke to a motion, and then amended his vote. . . : Mr. Douslin said the reason he declined '- was that he was not aware of the fact that '' it" required a majority of the whole Council, ■•"’’tq'legaiize an indemnity of this sort. If ,-.aware of the fact, he would have voted tpwith the Government. . ...... --The Speaker concluded that when a vote ivas deliberately recorded, it would be do-

ing wrong to allow a recall of it. Tie might have to take a recall twenty times over. Parties might say Yes, or Ho, without limit. (Mr. Ward—“ "Very likely.”) The motion was declared carried, but not competently, there not being an absolute majority of the Council present. Messrs. Bowden's Petition. Mr. Conolly moved—- “ That the Petition of Thomas Jones Bowden and Richard Bowden be referred to a Select Committee: —Messrs. Eyes, Wemyss, Greensill, H. C. Seymour, and the Mover.” Mr. J. Godfrey seconded. Mr. Conolly would state that the Messrs. Bowden had been deprived of a considerable portion of land under the Native Land Claims Act, that the loss was very injurious to their interests, and that they had expended large sums of money in improvements upon the said lands. In consideration of these things they had applied to the Provincial Government, and it was at their suggestion that the matter was put to the Council. Agreed to. Mr. Conolly moved “That the Committee be instructed to report that day week.” Agreed to. Expenditure on Public Works. Mr. J. Godfrey moved—

“ That this Council requests the Superintendent to furnish a statement of the amounts expended on account of the sums voted for Public Works during the Sixteenth Session of this Council.”

He intended it to include the expenditure up to the present time. The Superintendent had stated in his proclamation that he called us together in consideration of the present unsatisfactory position of the province ; and yet there was not a paper to enlighten them as to the state of matters, and members were not provided with a statement of the financial position without a member proposing the production of such information. They promised an elaborate explanation for themselves before going into money matters; but the Council ought to be well acquainted with the finances, and the latest state of their account with the Rank. How could they deal otherwise with the financial position of the province, when they did not know anything about it? It would not take much time. If the Government intended to force on the csti mates upon the second day, they should have laid on the table a few of those returns usually looked for most sessions. (Mr. Eyes : “including this session.” Mr, Conolly seconded. Mr. Eyes said all the information had been laid on the table except up to the last two months. It was not usual to grant returns up to the present moment. One word more, they would think from the mover there was something they wanted to hide! Returns of the previous three quarter’s expenditure had been printed, and the hon. member should be satisfied if he got a statement of the expenditure on public works that had taken place during the two previous months. He wanted books of reference. There was no blame to the Government, and no doubt the gentleman that occupied the chair would supply all the books belonging to the Council, which were only lying in his room at present. Mr. Conolly was glad the Government did not intend to oppose laying upon the table the information asked for. The accounts for last quarter and the two previous ones, with the sums continued that had been expended since, might perhaps make up the information, but members would have to look to five sources and work the calculations for themselves. What he understood to be wanted was a tabular list of the sums voted and the sums expended, for the satisfaction of the Council. Mr. Wemyss said they had made out what they required; the printed returns carried on the statement of the accounts, and members had only to take out items and compare them with the Appropriation Act.

Mr. J. Godfrey said the Government stated they had no desire to hide anything. They could not, as he could find, things out for himself; but they ought to come for ward with a full statement, and including the amount overdue at the Bank, for the use of every member. He could not understand X 1,300 under the heading of uncompleted contracts. They wanted to know, so that when called upcn to pass the Estimates, they might be prepared, and he had seen the present Superintendent stand up in his place in Council and fight for two days for the publication of the Estimates. The fullest information should be afforded, and not ■wrung out of the Government. The Government should not lead members upon their dictum ; when the Superintendent of a province tells us why he brought us here, and does not tell us what he could, it would make me disposed to think he had something to hide. They accused himself of personal attacks, as if he must be bad. The Provincial Secretary said it would re-

quire another clerk to make up such returns. Did they mean to tell him that clerks in that office at the present time could not make out such a little thing as thisl It would not take him three hours if he was up to his business, and his books were properly posted up. These things should be provided by every Government that studied its own interests.—The motion was then agreed to. Mr. Dodson moved, and Mr. Douslin seconded, that the Council adjourn till halfpast two o’clock.—Council adjourned. The Council resumed at half-past two. Mi-. Wemvss moved—- “ That this Council do now go into Committee of Supply to consider the Estimates.” The Council then went into committee. Mr. Robinson in the chair. Mr. Coulter, as Provincial Treasurer, briefly reviewed the position of the province in relation to the Colony. The population of the latter, which in 1860 was estimated at 208,682, may now be fairly estimated at 218,000, that of the former is, according to the last census, 4,371, being about one-fiftieth of the whole population. The Statistics of the Colony for 1866, shew the Ordinary revenue to be £1,086,293, the l/50th of this is .-£21,725, being the proportion that the people of Marlborough contribute towards it. Allowing the General Government to take onehalf of this for colonial purposes, the province should be credited with the other half, that is, £10,862, subject nevertheless to the General Government expenditure, provincially charged, which amounts to £4005, and the interest on Provincial debts about £ 1200, would still leave £5057 to the credit of the Province. This would have been our position, had we been fairly dealt with in making financial arrangements, in the last session of the Assembly. That sum, added to our Land Fund and other local sources of income, would have placed us in as good, or a hotter position, than any part of the colony. Instead of this I have to show a very different state of affairs. By the Public Revenues Act, 1867, the province is only credited with the Customs actually collected -within the province, which, with other small sources of revenue, did not amount to £8,803. Assuming it to be the same this year, the one-half being General Government i-cvcnue, the other half about £4,401, will do little more than meet the General Government expenditure provincially charged, which is £4,105, so that in making an estimate of Provincial revenue we may leave out Customs altogether, and out of our Land Revenue we may expect that the General Government will retain sufficient to pay interest on loans charged against this province of about £12,000 ! Disadvantageous as the financial arrangements of last year are shown to be to this province, this is not the only bad feature ; when the Colonial Treasurer stated in the House that before arranging for the future, it was necessary to get rid of the debts of the provinces to the General Government, and when this province was declared to be in debt £12,000, and that debt was afterwards disposed of, we considered that we entered on the new financial arrangements with a clean sheet; but not so, the General Government have brought forward claims .against this province to the amount of £4,929 comprising £71,975 4s. 4d. interest due on the Half-Million Loan for the years ending 1865 -7, and this account was not rendered until Dec. 1867, six mouths after it became due; a miscellaneous account of small items, £227 2d. ; on Telegraphic Account, £614 lls. 7|d ; and interest on Nelson Debenture Act, £2,112 13s. sd. The Telegraphic Account is subject to adjustment, which will reduce it t0£425 2s 7d, and the Nelson debt is £ 1509 Is. overcharged, not more than £603 12s. sd. being due on the 31st December last. The debts of the province will thus be reduced to £3230 19s. 6d., to pay which the General Government have retained the Land Fund belonging to the province, to the amount of .£2962 17s. ; and the Land Fund accruing this month will more than cover the balance against us. From the detention of these Funds, we have been obliged to incur a debt at the Bank of New Zealand, of over £4OOO, to enable the Government to be carried on in the meantime. As these claims are now satisfied, and a revenue coming in from the taking out pastoral leases, I do not apprehend any immediate collapse of the province, from the relentless grasp the General Government has made upon its finances ; but still we cannot as a province consider our position to be satisfactory, without a readjustment of the ordinary revenue of the colony, so as to give ns our fair share ; or else, that an equality may be established, by the General Government taking to the departments of gaols, police, &c., throughout the colony, and doing away with the distribution of ordinary revenue among the provinces, which would allow of the general taxation being reduced. He had almost forgot to mention before, that the General Government most liberally offered to receive the sum of £7227 for miscellaneous items of postage, telegrams, &c., by three-monthly instalments, and proposed to negociate with Nelson on our behalf, f®r Marlborough’s share of the one year’s interest on the Half-Million Loan !! ! Our estimate of revenue for the year ending June, ’69, must in the meantime, be made without reference to such adjustment, and I think we may rely upon a product as follows Land Skies ... ... £2OOO Leases Crown Lands ... ... 4000 Surveys (refund) •••.;. ... 600 Goldfield Receipts ... ... 125 Rent of Reserves 500 Incidental ... 200 Publican’s Licenses 900 Auctioneer’s Licenses... ... 50 £8375 . I do not think this an over-estimated sum ; it provides for all the departments of the Provincial Government,' butT regret tKak it is hot sufficient to allow of public works and education, yet at a time when we cannot give funds to support things of so much importance, we are the General Government arrangements as our share, no less a sum; than £ 1,20*0 a year to the Panama Mail Service, which the Postmaster-General tells I us, gives us our letters - Only half a ; day earlier

than we should get (them by way of Suez. The unfair way in which we have been treated in the distribution of the' revenue, and the extravagance of the General Government are the causes of our present difficulties ; and as I have before said, we cannot as a province be placed in a good financial position, without a re-adjustment of the financial arrangements of the colony, which I believe it will be found necessary to do in the next session of the General Assembly. Were it otherwise, they would be in a better position than any other province in New Zealand, as less loans had been contracted by it. Mr. Conolly asked the Treasurer to what extent the Bank "of New Zealand would allow them to overdraw ?

Mr. Goulter said they could overdraw £2,000 at 8 per cent., and over that amount, and up to .£5,000 at 10 percent. By recent correspondence the Bank had written that they would extend the overdraft to £IO,OOO upon receiving a guarantee from the General Government.

Mr. Conolly would move that the chairman do leave the chair. It was a perfect absurdity to stick there and pass votes when there was no money whatever for salaries and other departments, which amounted to .£B,OOO, when they had not a farthing in the Treasury, and were in debt to the Bank, £4,000, whilst the income for the ensuing year was very doubtful, and according to the clear statement of the Treasurer laid before them, it appeared the money that the General Government detained in their hands after making all deductions they were wholly entitled to. There might be some new apportionment of the Surplus lievenue, but nothing of the sort took place last session, and they had no reason to expect next session. The larger provinces derived a benefit by that we lost, and it was not likely they would give up their present advantageous position. It was useless to expect that a province which sent only two members could gain for them their share of the revenue. It was impossible to imagine that other provinces that benefitted by their position would concede anything. They would have to fall back upon the income for the ensuing year under the present arrangement, and the Provincial Treasurer allowed he had to leave out the estimate of the Customs. Now the Land Sales were not likely to realise so much ; leases, refunds from surveys, &c., were not underestimated. .There was no reason the leases should amount to £400; he would like to be informed how they came at that amount. He fairly calculated all these items were at their fullest amount, when they were put as £8,375. Out of that they wished to vote £B,OOO, about the whole income on a liberal estimate, without a particle for public works, education, or other matters. Whilst there were no public works whatever, they were asked to uphold an expenditure out of proportion to that reasonably required for the management of the province. The mere expense of salaries (excluding jails and police), and miscellaneous somethings were above £5,000. It was really perfectly ridiculous that with an income of £B,OOO, they should expend £5,000 upon salaries. Unless some more reasonable scheme was devised, it was a waste of time to prepare the estimates. Mr. Goulter remarked that the item miscellaneous might be considerably reduced when they came to expend money. Some of the items ought not to bo" there ; £612 Nelson Interest, &c., was taken out of their hands now, anti £SO for Provincial Auditor was provided for by the. General Government. Mr. Eyes had noticed the incorrect—grossly incorrect—calculation. The hon. member had made reference to salaries ; at most they were included at £720. He would defy him to show more. (Mr. Conolly : I said salaries and miscellaneous ) Could the Land Office be done away with; could the Commissioner, and clerk, or surveyors ? Talk about ridiculous ! It was the height of ridiculousness to say so. If the Provincial Government was done away with, they must have Boards, and could the .working manager do with less than £IOO a year ? Their treasury some one would have to take charge of. The present paymaster would get an increase of salary. He (the Superintendent) had failed in getting the General Government to reduce the departmental expenses, and they showed noinclination to reduce. If under them, we should find instead of lowering, they would increase expenses. The hon. member had set out how ridiculous it was to pass estimates without money, but he might say how much more ridiculous it would be should these not be passed, and they had money. They could not do without a provision for police, hospitals, jails, paupers, lunatics, &c. He drew the attention of the Ministry to the position the General Government might find itself in to look after jails, &c., or the doors would have to be opened, and the prisoners allowed to go at large ; but the answer was, there was no machinery by which they could interfere in such a matter. They must provide some means or other ; they must find the money. During the recess, they could not leave the province' in a state wanting all provision for carrying on things. In the event of the General Government not consenting to some arrangement by the payment of instalments, &c., it would be impossible for them to provide certain departments, and the General 1 Government would have to make provision for the maintenance of police, &c. They informed me there was no legal provision for anything of the kind. Was it likely they could allow the jail doors to open, or the police to leave,: from not being paid. They would have been wanting in their duty to the province if they had not brought forward estimates for'supporting those necessary departments. The Treasurer had shown that there would be sufficient money next year to cover its expenses. There was . nothing [ for public works it had been said, but many, of these departments, were if not-for roads and bridges. If no sums were put, down for the purposes of expenditure, they wpuld-gefc nothing, for the General Government was in such a state they could scarcely, keep theirbyra departments going. That vras the. true ..reason they, kept the province’s money back. _A .member had no grounds to assume that, their estimate of probable revenue was incorrect. - The land- sales for the last three months were .upon'an average of £4,000 a-year, and they had only put down £2,000. ;• He -would oppose the motion; c :.>Mr,. Jqlm rGpdfrey replied, after which the Estimates were passed, as printed by us last week,; with the exception'of the Audit Department, which p^uhged’.^, .[We.shall continue the debates next week.]