Provincial Council.

Lyttelton Times, Volume X, Issue 628, 13 November 1858, Page 3

Provincial Council.

Tuesday, Nov. &■ The Council mefeijaf; 5. p.m.. > .•''.> , Present.-r-^4•■,*% «;tAW«.; except Messrs. Hi-ro-ins, Ross, Ward and \Vyatt. „; ;v Prayers and tjie minutes of' the previous meetii)*'1 being'read} ■', ■•''•'"'■ ■'.' '—• •■■'■ ;< ■ ■■■ Mr. OLLiviEB laid oh the table the following I lßeport9 of the/Provincial Engineer on the cost of laying down,a tramway , from Christchurch to Sunnier. On the best^line of rail-_ way betweenJf^yttelfcon, and Christcliurch'; and on the'draWgeof Lake EllesmereV .; ' '-;: Mr. ,H'a£L moved for popies of any correspondenco between the General Government and the provincial Government of Canterbury,; relative to sums due on the .balance of accounts^ from either the General or Provincial Government, to be furnished to the CounciL Motion agreed to. Mr. Hail,moved for copies of any correspondence between the General Government and Provincial Government of Canterbury, not" already laid before the Council^ relative to the preotibii of 'a Custom House on the site of the Hospital '■'■ reserve, in' the Town ;6f. Lyttelton, to be luriiished to the Councih : ! Motion agreed to.' : '.':'■•■' SHEEP BILL. The Council went into;committee on this 8in..,.-,; '. t i;\:':-;.'■"'-'::':. ■■' ■\; ■; . . ■ In. Clause 3 Mr. Bishop proposed the insertion of the words,' with the advice and consent of the Executive Council,' after the words giving, power to the Superintendent to appoint a Registrar of, Brands. Discussion arose upon this amendment, after which the committee divided, when, there appeared :-—,.■.,..,, '.., •■ r -..:..:' Ates : Messrs. Alport, Bishop, Cookson, Hall> Harman, Potts, Packer, Rhodes, Templer, Studholine,;Thomson—l,l. Noes: Messrs C.ass, Bowen, Davis, Dobbsj Duncan, Fooks, Eyfe, Miin, OUivier, White— io. i;:"■.;,;:;...".,:.: '-'.■;.■; :'. "/'"■■ The further consideration of this clause and of clause 8 was postponed. "" . On clause 10 ;a,division occurred, on the question jwhetjier the . clause be struck out, when there :-— Noes!: r Messrs. .Bishop, Bowen, Cookson, Davis,, I)obbs,\ Fooks, Hall, Harman, Potts, Miln, Packer, .Rhodes!, Studholme. Ayes : Messrs.*Alport, Cass, Duncan, Pyfe, Templar, White. '".; ; The clause ."therefore; stood as proposed, and the remaining ; was passed without amendment^ ,-^ . ' . r ■.'.','■. '.,'..'/,','.. .. The. Council then went into committee.of supply, wheii, votes for the excess of expenditure on public works, for the pnst half-year were takenrr-and!progress reported. : - V, Notice ;of niotiwi, bsipg given, the Council adjourned, „/r'r ..,/; • ■ „.'.V' .'.,.; i^WEpifESDAY, Noy. 10. '. ,' The Council, niet.at 5j p.nV. ,; Present?—7the.Speaker, Messrs. Olli vier, Dun - can, Gas's, D, obbs,' Temp j of, P fiy j s;. Fooks, Ross,. .Bishop,.Pqttf j"Blak'isloiy,'yy!ard,: Hannah,; Studholme, iHall,' Packer^','Thomson,. White, and Wyja.tt.;.'V-!i-,.|i. '■'W^^^'Ti''' \\ J ■■''''■'.''''■>'''''. ". :' After, prayers the minutes- of the previous meeting having been-read, .■ . :..".•". \ Mr. iSTUDHOLME r presented a! petition from. certain ; stbekowriers resident .in Christchurch, which he said wouldrhaye been more extensively signed had time permitted. It vfki read, as follows :•?-!,. ... ," .'.',' '....- ■,' • To the Honorable the Provincial Council of '•■'' the - Province of Canterbury in : Session assembled:1 TheMemprial of the undersighed Fl6cKowhe'rs\6f the • grovirice and ;: ■' others^';';' ii:;> '■■-■- ■'•■]: '.:■:.'■'. ■■'■■[■^ '■•■•.-: Humbly fSHEWETH, — ■■■■■■: That yourniemorialists desire to bring under thenoticeibf ydurhonbrable Councilthe extreme importance toithewholeof the pastoral interest in .the province. of ; ;the offices ;of. inspector* of sheep.being,filled by properly ./qualified,' persons. Thai;, upon: the 'fulfilmenti of this condition depends'almost entirely the^amount of benefit which the province may expect to. derive ffrpm any law for preventing the spread'of disease in sheep, andJthe amount- of b protection which the careful and •industrious;; sheep farmer : may hope, for againsthis; indifferent; or ; careless neighbour, as ; well as .against, the importation, of diseased sheepfrom adjacent provinces.,.- . "/■ . . That the experience of r '.'thelpast few years has strikingly, exemplified the fact, ; that; whereas until" a recdht:'period \l;he number' of: diseased sheep in the provijifre was exceedingly small, and they: were confined''within^harrow limits, such disease has ribw,; owing to an inefficient administratibn; ofl the law, been introduced. from the province of Nelson, and has "spread and is continuingto spread; to art:alarming'extent, :. • ;,.■■ That in, : the; northern : district ;of, Otago the number of diseased .sheep -has, owing to the exertions of one efficient' arispector, \>een reduced in a shqft .time "iCrpni ?28^000,' to. 2.50Q;'- whereas it is a lamentable fabt that, in this provinoe the humher 6t such sheep has, actually increased ana'w.BtiillconttnuiDgito';increase.' v' i - That your meinbrialists; have heard with feelings of great'concern the announcement of the appointment recently made to the inspector of sheep. ;r(«;i },-.'■,-, v .i >;■..•::: ::■>.< '.:•' ■■;: .:.--.; '■ ■ . That from the knowledge your memorialists possess of the gentlemen who have been selected,.. especially the (inspector for the. ,Northern. dis- ' trict, they can hayehq.confidence whatever that the law; „will f be' energetically or judiciously administered.' ' . • < Tjiat'if the servlcegof persons properly qualified can .be obtained by an increase to the prosentjratfa of siilary,' your; memorialists earnestly hope that such iiicreaso will bo awiirded by your honorable Council. That looking however to the amount of loss and injury to which the, want of properly qtmliflcd.ofilcerß would exposa many of thuir body,

and which in some cases would bo absolute ruin, your, memorialists are prepared, if your honorable Council should not think it right that such increase shall be defrayed from the public funds, ito make good the same from their'own resources.

That your memorialists earnestly hope your honorable Council,will take the above into your favorahle consideration, arid will take such steps aswillleadto properly qualified persons being appointed to the office of inspector of sheep; and will [avert from the pastoral interest the very serious injury with which it is now threatened.

And your memorialists will ever pray. Signed by W.'Ki Mao(lonald,D.: Innes, Ernest Gray/Alfred Cox, D.; Macfarlane, F. G. P. Lead), Gdujd & Milea, J.Hall, G, A. E. Ross, R. J. S. , Harman. , .

Mr,,Ross moved that the petition be received. '.' . . • •• ■

, .Mr. Olliviee"opposed the reception of the petition on two grounds; first, because the. Council was* not the ; right body to address as to the appointment of an officer of government. The Superintendent and he alone was authorised to make appointments. ,, The other was that the petition .asked for a grant of money, a request which by the rules of the Council was improper, and rendered the petition invalid under standing orders. ' '•

Mr, Hall submitted thatHhis was not a case asking for a grant for the use of the petitioners, which-only was contemplated by the standing orders. He would refer to the Speaker's decision. , . ■ . -„ • ..

, The Speakeii ruled that the petition could be received. It did n*t ask for a-grant of money in the way forbidden by the standing orders. It was: quite in order to receive a petition praying the Council to take such steps as would provide for the increase of a vote.

; - Mr.-Hall said as to.the other objection that the Council was. not the body to apply to, even granting it to be the fact for the sake of arguirientj was that any reason why the petition should not be received ? He had never in the course of his experience heard such a.doctrine, broachedr before. -Surely, though the Council might not agree in the prayer of .the petition, they should not refuse to receive it. The time would come for considering it, when action might be taken as the Council chose ; but till then the prayer should at least be listened to. - The question of receiving the petition was then put and carried. ; '. ; GAOL MANAGEMENT. Mr. Hall moved that it is desirable that the Council should be. informed whether it is the intention .of the Government to introduce during the present session a measure for providing for the superintendence and control of gaols within the Province of Canterbury. The law had been altered by the General Assembly in its last session, as to the control' by < the Sheriff,-and no officer had been -left but the gaoler] arid a visiting justice whose, duty it w>s only :to ,inspect, ;and ;who bad no, power to assume control in any shape or form. Mr. Olliviek said that.it was np^ the intention of the' Government to introduce any measure. The law as it stood at present was quite sufficient ■ under it the power of manage-; .merit was placed in -theihands-:of;the gaoler," under 'the superintendence of a;yisiting justice, ! to whom ; the;gaoler. was; instructed -to refer in all matters of importance. He di,d not seethat •there was. any necessity, for further provision*. : Mr.^HALL;. pointed- t>ut that though the :system vvprked \vell; at present, when: the .gaoler was thoroughly acquainted with- bis duties, arid yet was sufficiently awai-e of;the. responsibility -of-his .position to refer on all ; occasions to the superintending justice; yet in ■ other cases there might _~.be great difficulty. in preventing inconvenience. He would, however, ;withdraw the„ rnotioh as the' question was already answered. '. "V. ; Mr. Ollivie^ brought up the l-eport of the committee on public works. It was a short document, and expressed no opinion upon the works ' which the committee <had had under consideration; „ ;,-■ ; ;„, ;, , SHEEP BILL. .' . - On the motion for going into committee on this.bill, _ -;' :;' ;; \ : . ~ ■ Mr. OlhVies: said that it would be convenient to state before going into.committee what his reasons were for moving the recon-j sideration of some of .the, clauses. ■In clause , 111 an;amendmenfi,has been proposed to which the Gpvernment ,felt. it,their .duty to object'; not that in that particular clause the amendment was,- of much importance, but: because it was evident that a greater meaning^ was attached to it from its connection with an office whose patronage wasiofimore importance. The amendment "proposed, introduced a departure from tha ordinary practice,; which be found clearly,laid down in the Ilxecutiye Government Ordinance;, There a line "was.' clearly drawn. Heads of departments were "to be appointed by warrant, uridor the hand of the Superintendent; but' might only be removed by-warrant by the advice and; consent. of; the Execxitive^ Oouncil. In ! the next clause, winch it was important: £o attend to, it was, ena,cted that subordinate officers should he, appointed and removable from time to time by the Superintendent. This was the law" clearly laid down as to iappointmerits: Next it was oriacted that'it should be lawful for the Superintendent, with the advice: 'of "his Executive Council, to make regulations for the management of all the departments, and to alter the same. :Could.anything bo moro clear? Could, the lion, gentloman who moved the amendment .find any'other, instances but those of the Lands Commissioners and the Inspoetor of Schools, where this form was not adhered to ? ' Tho'rulo was maintained evon in the hon. gentleman (Mr. Hall's) own ordinance, tho Scab and Catarrh Ordinnneo of 1851; with respect to tho very iippouitiuant which they wore thon discussing; but as to tlvo regulations

for the office, it was laid down that they were to be made by the advice and consent of the Executive Council; just as expressed in the. Executive Council Ordinance, giving one duty i to the Superintendent and another to the Coun ■ j oil. This could not have been mere accidental identity of phraseology: but supposing it was so, ,ha. would refer to the actual practice. In the .Government Giizette on several occasions he found the appointments to the present office?: that' of Mr. Marshman to be Registrar of 1 Brands, and that of Sir Wm. Congreve to be Inspector of Shpep ; but turning to the record of the Executive Council at corresponding dates, he found a notification to the Superintendent that such and such an appointment had been made, ana that regulations for the guidance of the officer were submitted and approved. There was here not the slightest attempt at interference with the proper functions of the Superintenent. This showed the intention of the law, and the manner in which the provisions of the law had been carried out. The present attempt was one to infringe the prerogative of the Superintendent and to curtail his fundamental privileges as laid down in the Executive Council Ordinance. If the Council believed the law was an unsound one, let them meet on that point distinctly and discuss the question whether the Ordinanceshould be altered. This would be the legitimate method of bringing the matter to issue; but it was one which he thought his honourable friend (Mr. Hall), would not be likely to adopt, considering that he had so frequenth' been known to declare that ours was the only sound system of Government. He would now beg the Council to: bear with him while he alluded to rather a delicate portion of the question under consideration. The real point was not the! Registrarship of brands: it would be idle to entertain, a long discussion on the appointfnient to this office; but it was really whether fthe Superintendent should be at liberty |to appoint an Inspector of Sheep or whether fthe Executive Council were to do it and to be | responsible for it. His Honor had on this occasion thought right to ..exercise his undoubted privilege in the matter.; and, having done so, laid the fact of the appointments before the Executive. They did not think the impropriety of the selection was of so heinous a character as to compel them to go out of their way to object to it; but they took upon them their peculiar function, the formation of regulations, and made them as stringent as lay in their power; then it was announced to the Provincial Council that the appointments had been made. Now, he would recall the fact that the Superintendent had asked the sheepfarmers to recommend a person for the appointment of Scab Inspector. His Honor declared that he had personally no knowledge of the disease nor had any of his advisers, and therefore he wished for the assistance of those skilled in the. matter. If the had meant to act fairly with his /Honor in the matter they would have attended Sthe meeting which he called and explained I their opinions straightforwardly to him. But Sin the meantime another meeting was called <r,by the stockowners them selves, "a week previous |to that summoned by his Honor; there in their Iprivate. meeting they gave utterance to some sentiments; amongst others a resolution was' passed recommending that two inJspectors should be appointed, one for the North, I another for the South. ; This was a new feature.

' TRe*Gbvernniehfc JiacTßefore ttToughTfone officer sufficient, but in deference to the expressed opinions, though privately given, his Honor consen te,d to make the double appointment. At ■the meeting which his Honor called, but three gentlemen were present. The Superintendent then acted as it was left to him to do, and in so doing he had little choice. It had been mentioned ,to him (ilr. 0.) that there was an active officer in the south who would be willing to transfer his services to this province if the salary was fixed at a rate which would be sufficient inducement. When this proposition was made he felt really astonished. If a written communication had been sent from the officer applying for the appointment, the Government 'might have felt able to act upon it, but to ask the Government of this province to tempt from a neighbouring province one of their efficient servants by an offer of higher salary was to ask them to do what would have been a most unprincipled thing, if looked at in the light that such a transaction between private persons Would be viewed in. How could such an action be defended ? His Honor of course did not {listen to the proposal, but proceeded to choose : from "the few candidates offering, those whom I lie deemed to be best, qualified for the berth. \one of; these was a gentleman_whoni it was |uhderstood^EhT^slie^p^arlTJers' woulcPTiaye if they liad^elcerms^dXcoo^ » |'but he declined the appointment, fifsCbecause I the salary was insufficient; secondly ■as he J stated,: because he felt himself inefficient .to I carry out the regulations which were laid down {for his (guidance. The only candidates remaining upon whom the appointment could fall were tßlessrsr r AT3atiis:: and BoultoTi ;~bulrr"wnen his. f|Honor made"the appbiritnient accordingly, complaints began.to be made. As to the memorial which had been laid on the table, ho could say that the'gentleman objected to therein was approved of by' the testimony of many leading and influential sheep-farmers in the province. And those -who objected to him, wh.it grounds conld' they show tor their^bjectidn ?'" If the officer did 'not do his duty, tliey might then complain with some reason. It had now come to this that on this point the Government would make a stand; they felt it necessary'to say that they could not allow the clause as amended to pass the Council without taking it to mean a direct vote of want, of confidence

in them, and a direct reflection upon their previous conduct. They would not consent to hold office to be dictated to in the manner which some persons desired to do; and if the Council came to a decision in favour of the proposition, they as members of the Government would have but one course to puraue. He would be sorry if this determination should embarrass the. proceedings of the Council and' the province: but he felt that while in office he and his colleagues had endeavoured thoroughly and sincerely to do their duty ; and if their services were rejected they must give way for those from whom more could be hoped.

Mr. Jtoss would take the opportunity of saying a fewr.worjis..in,{ingw,er i ,to,.tt>e attack on tlie .ShSSP.-arnit^ -now..as..it .mightViot'be easy to do so a little later. He was neither friend nor enemy of Mr. Adams, and was sorry to be forced to co^inJlain_oJlJLi.3_apj>ointmer)t;' but he felt convinced that it was one which would do harm rather than good. He had supported the prayer of the petition presented that evening because he thought that if there had been any difficulty about the salary, it was not too late to. offer to J^^om^Mng j Jowards,itjput of their own pockets. It had long" been privately suspected by himself and many others that Mr. Adams was""going to be appointed, and they bad" taken" every ""opportunity of indirectly expressing their views on the selection, and he knew_ thit objections had been offered. The Provincial Secretary said that several leading and influential sheepfarmers agreed to the appointment, but for his own part.he could say that he had not met one single man really, in the position of "a sheepfarmer who didnotdiss**&• They (fche sheepfarmers) haS rib political object in view, but the matter was one of importance to all, and they therefore took what means lay in their power to urge the_appoint-meJ}J:.MJ^S-b-S^J^Sin- -^s to the previous app'oirTtment, it "would be recollected that at that time it was uncertain whether a sum sufficient for the salary would be voted by the Council, as the-fuH importance of the office was not then recognized. The sheepfarmers, who might have to pay the cost of the appointment, were therefore properly permitted to exercise a choice (in the selection of an individual. They were now relieved from this responsibility. Mr. Studholme, in reference to the allusion of the Provincial Secretary to the offer made about the Otago inspector, stated what he had known of that transaction. Mr. Habhan said, he had suggested that a communication should be made to the Otago Government on the subject, a course which would be taken by a private individual in a similar case.

Mr. Hall said that as to the charge against the sheepfarmers of not attending the meeting called by his Honor, he thought that a very ) natural course to take. If they did not wish Ito give the advice which was asked for, their I simple plan was to stay away. Then, there were good and cogent reasous for holding the previous meeting. The Council was about; to meet, and it was desired to arrange the coarse to be taken beforehand. The Provincial Secretary had taken credit to the Superintendent for attending to the recommendation of the meeting in the double appointment, but he had forgotten to speak of the other resolution which declared that in their opinion the appointment should be made by the Executive Government. Then he had stood out for the indefeasible right of the Superintendent to appoint without taking the advice of the Executive, but he was inconsistent enough Jx> approve of his Honor comiiTg~"t6~|Fe""whple bo3y~oP"ltockowners for advice. "The event proved that the course taken "by that body was a right one. Something had been said about personal dislike and hatred causing the opposition to the inspector; this was a most serious charge against those who were now offering opposition to.the appointment, and lie challenged the Provincial Secre- | tary to prove his assertion: which was a reckless and unfounded charge. Coming now to the question of principle: it had been said that the provision now desired to be inserted was not in the "old ordinance; but they were now amending that ordinance and getting rid of all its faults. Then quotations had been made from the Executive Council records; but he wanted to know if every occasion on which the Superintendent took counsel with his advisers was placed on record. He from his own knowledge could say that this was not the ease ; that on many occasions, eren when not compelled to do so, the Superintendent submitted questions for their decision, and the understanding was that everything should be done by their advice and with their consent Again, as to the assertion about the Council having no business to interfere with the Superintendent's prerogation, it was perhaps a very true statement* of the case ; but he would beg to remind the hon. gentleman that if it was the business of the one to appoint, it was equally the business of the other to vote the salary ; if so objectionable an appointment were made that the Council would not vote the salary for the office, great evils would ensue, and the two bodies would be placed in a very unpleasant position towards one another. To avoid collision in a matter of this kind the Executive Council was appointed, who, and not the Provincial Council, nor the body of slicop-farmers, .should bear the responsibility of acts done. The Executive, he would say, were not in this instance dealing fairly with his Honor; for if they had agreed with the appointment, it was due to him that they step forward and tako the responsibility on their own shoulders. [Mr. Ollivier remarked that tho members of the Executive did not accept any responsibility for theappointmentoftheoaicer, but they would be held responsible lor his acts.] How-could he understand thisdislinction ? If they

said that the appointment was some business of theirs they were undeniably responsible; if not, a bad officer might be appointed, and it would be no satisfaction to the public to find that after he had committed all sorts of bad acts the Executive Council were responsible for them. He contended that for these reasons the amend* ment should be introduced. Ministers.ought to be responsible without putting down their duties in black and white, but if they were not found to be so in practice, it would be necessary to define their responsibility by law. Without fear of the dreadful consequences, of resignation, he would per.si.st, in urging'the adoption of the clause in committee.

Mr. Duncan- would put before the Council the position of the Executive as laid down in the ordinance. .That he considered his textbook and to that he looked to find out what hi 3 duties were when he accepted office. It simply fdeclared that the power of making appoint* jnients vested in the Superintendent, while that jof making regulations vested also in the Executive Council. If he and his colleagues were I attacked for not having stated their disapproval lof the appointment in question, he could onlysay that they had no power to do anything, of the sort. The rule was laid down, and was only pointed out more clearly by the fact that there were some special exceptions.

i Mr. Packer thought the hon. gent, who had , ! just sat down read the law clearly enough as to the letter, but forgot its spirit. If any one doctrine had been preac-hed more than another as the fundamental basis of the Government, ifc , was that of responsibility : and the only responsibility he could understand was that of the Council to the Provincial Council, fand thereby to the public. The question was, not who was to be Sheep Inspec* ; tor, but a much deeper one. .As ! ;to defiance of the Council, he had"seen the hon. gentleman (Mr. Ollivier) himself in Auckland, in a perfect fm-y at the members; of the General Government, when they dealt! "with the_ House of Representatives as he was now doing with the Council. The principle of this proposition was what he (Mr. P.) looked at solely, and to that he would stick regardless of consequences: For his part he could not see the difference between the recommending an appointment by the Executive, and the acceptance" of it by th;.t body, as aSecting their responsibility. The Superintendent had from the first promised to be guided by the opinion of his advisers, and expressed himself pleased that he should have the assistance of the ablest men of the province. He (Mr. P.), though he acknowledged that his Honor had obtained the assistance of the ablest men to back - him,-still must observe that he did not take their advice. Whatever embarrassment might be caused to the province by the result of the vote about to be taken (and from the experience he had of the time when he retired from office and the consequent confusion.he knew, that it was no slight consideration) he must conscientiously give his vote against the Government. ■

! Mr. Olliyiee wished to repeat that the Executive Council had not expressed any objections* to the appointment of the Inspectors ; th'ev were not in a position to do so: They could not condemn . a man without grounds to go upon : and certainly they would be most' unwilling to pre-judge the case against an individual, as had been done that'night. The Executive were not asked whether they approved or not. His Honor had made the appointment and notified the fact to them : of course they had not objected, having no cause whatever to dp so: and if they had objected they must have . been able to have given a good reason for it. He then replied to the accusation that they desired one day to accept a responsibilitj7, and another to throw it off. He asserted that the memorial laid on t*he table did not emanate from the body of stockowners. (Here Mr. Ross, spoke to order, as introducing new matter). He replied to the accusation of his Honor being \ ready to consult the stoekownerS, but refusing * to advise with his responsible ministers. He ; alluded also to the threat of refusing to pass the salary of the office; and concluded that if the clause as proposed were passed he must take it as an unequivocal signification of the intention of the Council to throw a stigma upon the past conduct of the Executive. -

The Council having gone into committee, Clause 111 was read, and on the motion of Mr.

Olliviee the words " by and with the advice and consent of the Executive Council" were expunged ;*Mr. Bishop and others stating that it would be preferable to take the general debate on the next clause. i • , *

Clause VIII being read, Mr. Bjshof moved the insertion of words as above, and Mr. STtrpHOLiiE seconded the amendment. '

Mr. Dobbs begged the committee .to pause before taking part in a proceeding which had * the effect of condemning the conduct of those who were absent. It was most- undignified and un-English in the highest .degree fo'abuse and vilify men-behind theiv backs as had been '" done that evening. ••"'... "".

; Mr. Thomson would support the amendment, confining himself strictly to the principle conveyed in the words proposed to be introduced. He had voted for this principle on the previous evening, and continued to hold the same opinion on the question. | Messrs. Hall, Ollivier, Packer, and Duncnnagaih addressed the committee.

The amendment was then pat and earned to a'division, when there appeared : — : j Ayes:—Messrs. Thomson, Packer, Stml- *} holme, Hall, Ross, Wyatt, Harnian, Potts, an d i Bishop.—9. -\ Noes ::—Messrs. Ward, Bowen. Foot*, Miln, :> Templer, White, Davis, Dobbs, Cites, Duncan and Ollivier.—ll. . .

The amendment was accc>ru%gly rejected, and the clause as originally proposed passed. ' Mr. Dobbs then moved that clause X be expunged. In this clause power was given to the Inspector to issue summonses himself with-out-coming to a Justice of the; Peace, Mt. 'H-axi. objected to 1 the-elau!?e being exand pointed out'ths importance of the •-power so conferred. Mr. Foojes arid'Mr. Duxcax supported the ■ amendment; which, being put, was carried. ■ The blauae'was therefore expunged. ■After'notices of motion given, the Council lAdjoarned.

Thubsday, Nov. 11. The Council met at 5 p.m. Present—the Speaker, Messrs; Ollivier, Dobbs, Fyfe, Bishop, Boss, Potts, Harman, Cookson, Ward, Hall, Studholme, Thomson, Davis, Cass, sFooks, Blakiston, and Packer. After prayere, the minutes of the preceding imeeting ueing read; Mr. Dobbs asked if it was the intention of ?the Government to appoint a pla<*e as a slaughter house reserve in the neighbourhood of Kaiapoi ? That town would soon come under the provisions of the Slaughter-house Ordinance, before ■which time at would be proper ,for the Governmentto see that a site was attainable in a proper locality according to the provisions of that j measure. i

Mr. Ollivieb said that there was a reserve of 15 acres for general purposes at Kaiapoi: if any portion of this reserve could be applied to vthe purpose it should be made serviceable: but he did not -expect that it would -be convenient > *to place a slaughter house inclose contiguityto the other establishments which might be formed on this reserve. In that case it would be necessary either that the private proprietors of the land on which the town was formed' should give up a piece for that purpose, or that a purchase should be made of some fit site on Tural land in the vicinity. Mr. Dobbs said he believed that there were sites^io be had for yet unsold in convenient situations. LYTTELTOK ELECTOBAL DISTBICT 3ILL. Mr. Wabp asked and obtained leave to introduce a bill to alter and define anew the boundaries of .the Lyttelton District for the election of members of Provincial Council. Mr, Olllviejj -then laid on-the table a copy of the award of the arbitrators in the matter of the -sale and exchange of Cathedral Saaare In Christchurch. LYTTELTON -WELLS. Mr. Davis moved a request to his Honor for £120 for the formation of wells in Lyttelton. This sum had been voted last year, hut had not ! *been spent, and the necessity for them was now becoming very great. He had been informed that there were impediments in the way of obtaining \ water by sinking, but he hoped such active -steps would be taken as would get over whatever difficulties existed.

Mr. Olbivieb stated that only the other day a boring apparatus had been purchased by the Government for the purpose of ascertaining whether wells could be sunk with any prospect of water. The real difficulty was, as stated in 4he evidence before the public works committee, •that no efficient superintendence could be obtained for the execution of the work. However, 'if the experiments by boring were successful the sinking of the wells should not be delayed. Mr. Davis was about to withdraw his motion, <when

Mr. Wa.bd hoped "that the address to his Honor, for the sum to be placed on the estir mates, would be passed, it would be of no ' use to make experiments with the boring apparatus, and then to find no fund 3 ready to make 'use of the information so gained. JThe motion was then put and carried. THE TUNNEL.

3fr. Oxlivieb rose to move a series of resolu'ttons of which he had given notice on the subject of communication. He would state first 4hat he had considerably to modify the design as first shadowed out in bis financial statement; and he begged that the Council would turn their attention simply to the plan which he now laid before them. The first resolution was one appointing a commission, consisting of Messrs. Bray, Cass, Harman, Whttcombe, Wylde, the Provincial Engineer, and the Provincial Secretary, rto confer with his Honor and to report on the most desirable lines of road to be purchased or reserved for the purpose of effecting railway communication throughout the province, in connection with the town of Christchurch and port of Lyttelton. •The second authorised the Superintendent to negotiate for the purchase of lands and to make the -reserves as recommended. The third tiirecteti the commission to prepare the maps and plans.of the line of the proposed tunnel and railway betwtwn Lyttelton and Christehurch for transmission to England. The fourth recommended that these plans and all other- information should be transmitted to the agent in England, to be submitted to an engineering firm of eminence, with a view to ascertain if ihey.br any contracting-firm would undertake the -execution of the works. The fifth placed At his Honor's di-sposal the sum of £1000 to ■defray.the expense of a competent'engineer if ' one was sent out by a contracting firm to make preliminary investigations, provided that on a Trtvouralile report; the work was undertaken. 'The sixth resolution *et apart a sum of £6000 to; effect <land purchases, and for defraying preliminary expenses. The seventh aud eighth TWjolutioaa went into the questions of finance, the beat way of applying the revenue of the pro,sW» to the work a* it progressed, and the most aidvanta£eoiiA use to muke of the work when finished. Mr. Ollivicr then went into the

figures vipon which his calculations were based, -showing that this year the revenue would show a surplus of £14#00; next year £15,000; in 1860-1 £19,000; making £48,000 in three years. The grosscost.according to the Engineer's report which was laid before the house, would be £200,000, made up in this way: tunnel, £100,000; bridges and earthworks, £12.750; permanent way for a single line, £18,000; Lyttelton station, £20,000"; Christchurch station, £10,000 ; rolling stock and contingencies, £39,250. Some of these items, that for stations, for instance, were over estimated, but the cost of land purchase (about 60 acres) was not included. He thea went at length into the question of leasing the line, and the per centages which would be paid on the capital required, and accrue from the use of the work ; also as to the traffic by which the line would be made to pay-; showing that at the end of 10 years, the province woald have a work completed and paid for, realising £13,000 a year, besides the acquisition of land reclaimed from Lyttelton harbour, worth at a moderate calculation £50,000. During the first three years the accumulating revenues would be spent in the purchase of land over which the railway should run, and in preliminary expenses. Mr. 01----livier then pointed out the immense gain which would accrue from the establishment of such a communication in facilitating the transport of men and things, and thereby' reducing the cost of transmitting our exports from the producing to the consumer's market. He then glanced at the average cost of railways in different countries. In the early times in England, they averaged £40,000 per mile, but in 1855 the cost was reduced to an average of £30,060. In Belgium, the cost, was £18,000, in Germany, £12,000, in Austra- i Ha, £11,000, and in America, £9,009 per mile all round; including all plant. It would not. do to take such a work as the Box tunnel in, England, and frighten ourselves with the idea of tunnelling because that work cost immense sums. He believed that the boring through;,the port hills would be of the simplest description. It was only proposed however now to take measures for obtaining competent skill from Engr. land, and that this skill might be of the highest order, he would be glad to see not only £1,000 but a very much larger sum appropriated as an inducement to some very eminent man. -He concluded by alluding to afact mentioned by the Provinnial Engineer in his report, that a resident engineer would "have to be appointed to look after the tunnel and harbour works, and; he noticed that though the Provincial Engineer himself was perfectly competent to undertake the management of these operations, it would be much preferable to leave that officer in the performance of his present duties and give the new job to a new man, than to introduce a new officer intothe department of public works. The Engineer also stated that there was abundance of labour and skill for the undertaking already in the colony, but that the description required could not be drawn away from other pursuits without larger remuneration being offered than it was usual to pay. The Council then went into committee on the resolutions.

Mr. Dobbs said a few words to the point urging the commencement of the work, bat noticing the fact that the greatest caution was necessary both in the scientific and financial portions of the enterprise. Mr.HAEMAK hoped the commissioners would not be compelled to report upon the tunnel, but that that work would be left for the opinion of a consulting engineer brought from a distance, who would not even be suspected? of being "biassed one way or other. He was afraid the whole work would cost more than was imagined; comparing both English and French tuunels he found an average cost of about £64 per lineal yard. This applied with colonial rates to the "undertaking in question would give an enormous total cost. He hoped that the sum devoted to obtaining the services of an engineer from England would not be stinted, so that the opinion might be the very best obtainable, and that no objection might be possibly afforded to his decision. The lion, gentleman spoke at considerable length and with much minuteness of detail.

Mr. Wabd thought the last speaker's remarks Avere most judicious. There were but three points on which resolutions of the Council should be taken to carry out the views expressed in the simplest way, and h« should prefer such a course to going into details in the way proposed by the Government resolutions. Messrs. Fooke, QHivier, Packer, and Dobbs addressed the committee, and Mr. Hal] proposed three resolutions in place of the series of eight, which/with some modification were accepted by the Provincial Secretary. They were passed in the following shape:— 1. That it is desirable that the services of a competent engineer should be obtained from England to report with as little delay as possible upon the best means ef effecting railway communication between Lyttelton and Christchurch : and that a sum of £4,000 be placed at the disposal of his Honor the Superintendent for this purpose.

2. That is desirable that a commission, consisting of Messrs. Brajr, Cass, Harman, Whitcomb, Wylde, the Provincial Engineer and the Provincial Secretary, be appointed -to confer with his Honur the Superintendent, and to report upon the other lines of railway communication throughout the province, and to take the necessary steps for enabling the Provincial Government to reserve at once the land required for such lines and in the neighbourhood thereof.

,3. That the beforementioned commiswsioners coUeet for the purpowo of. transmission to England the m^ps, pluns, und other information

connected with the proposed railway communication between Lyttelton and Chnstchurcn for the purpose of being submitted to an engineering firm of eminence, with a view to ascertain if they or any contracting firm would undertake the execution of the works in question. .ji.ii. The resolutions were then reported to the Council and adopted.

CATHEDBAL SQtfABE BILL. Mr. Ollivieb then asked for leave to bring in a bill to enable the Government and the governing body of Christ's College to effect a sale and exchange of the reserve known as Cathedral Square in the town of Christehuroh. This was really giving effect to an arbitration the award of'which had been laid on the table that evening, by which tiie Government purchased Cathedral Square for £1,200, giving 350 acres of rural laud and £500 in cash. One acre of the reserve was still to be kept for a cathedral site, and the remainder was to be left open for public recreation, a street being carried across it in continuation of Colombo Street.

Leave given, the bill read a first time, and ordered to be printed.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

The Council then went into committee to consider the estimates for the current year. The items for the Superintendent's, Secretary's, and Treasurer's departments were passed without comment.

, On the vote of £150 for the Auditor's salary, Mr. Thomson called attention to the fact of that officer being a contractor in the Survey department. As he alone constituted the check on improper expenditure, it was a wrong thing that he should have bills of his own to pass. This would open a door to jobbery and corruption, words which hensed now because no one could apply them to the present case. Mr. Oliivieb said that the fact of Mr. Marshman being a surveyor, and there being so few competent to do that work, rendered it .almost necessary that he should be employed in tßat particular manner.

Mr. Haxl drew attention to the fact that the Auditor had neglected to require the monthly returns of the Inspector of sheep to be furnished before passing his salary accounts. This was provided in the rules of the office, which he read.

Mr. Olliviek said that the auditor's responsibility . rested solely upon the authority by which any expenditure was incurred and its payment ordered. Further than to ascertain these facts the auditor did not care to enquire. A. discussion arose as to this point, after which an amendment was proposed to defer the consideration of the vote, which was put to a division and lost, the Government voting against it. The vote as proposed was then carried. The grants for the Solicitor's department and for the general expenses of the Executive were then passed. On the motion for members' expenses, Ross moved that the item be struck out, which was put to a division. For the grant—Messrs. Thomson, Packer, Ward, Bishop, Pyfe, Davis, Dobbg, Cass, Duncan, and Ollivier—lo.

Against—Messrs. Studholme, Hall, Cookson, Harman, Potts, Ross, Fooks, and Miln—B.

-The vote was then passed. The items for Supreme Court, Gaol, Registration, and Police, were then put and carried, when progress was reported before going into the grant for the salary of the Inspector of Sheep. The Council resumed, and after notices of motion given, adjourned till Tuesday evening.