General Assembly.

Lyttelton Times, Volume X, Issue 608, 4 September 1858, Page 3

General Assembly.

HOUSE OF/REPRESENTATIVES, ••'■,".'.* '■'■'.''■ •'"'A'cousf'.4*."'! x" ■';■•'.'".;

the! new provinces bill,

The follottiHg'is ' a '.condensed Report of the debate on thesVcbiia reidfrjjj ijf this' bUI. ; After reply ing ito'Various objections raised at a previous debate,* such as the inordinate powers thereby proposed) to be vested in the Executive; thei increasing of an alreadytoo large a number of provinces hi drie-1 colony; the hot establishing of Ifuiiiciji'alitieS' ihstead! of ne^v; provinces, and a few ..others ofalike nature, '.•'•'.. The Colonial proceeded :-r-What were the natural limits of a province? He proposed to give a definition; though but a rough one, it was better than those ideal lines on the map of the1 colony- arid he •'would have the House remember that when the power of a Provincial Government extended beyond the limits intended for it by. nature, it became centralism of the worst description ;ithe outlying districts would be completely neglected for the sake of the centre; and the Government would'be filled by monactuate<i;by petty local jealousies, instead of being a body of the best men' of the icouhtry, actuated (as he believed that'.'House was, and as he believed the- result of- that day's division would show) by the most enlarged feelings*,and the most patriotic motives;1 There was ho danger "in trusting a small 'local body with its own interests, bift it jvoiild not'tip to trust it with the interests of others. He had said' that provincialism in its present exaggerated shape was pure centralism in reality. He would give an instance -^which he would take from that province where the pear was nearest ripe—from the Province of Wellington.' They had all heard of what vas called the Seventy Mile Bush. The Wellington Government had projected a road through this bush some forty miles in length. It was just such an undertaking as a;small Napoleon might contemplate, for its object was to1 unite the extreme ends of a little empire, of which Wellington should be the centre. But though thus magnificent, it was an undertaking which would have been better divided, and com - menced also at Napier. ,'• No, no/' however, said his highness the Superintendent, " I shall begin only here, and unite you with my capital city •so that.the intermediate districts must all be tied 'up to that capital before a single penny could be spent upon the Napier district. He would give another instance. When he (Mr. R.) was first brought in contact with the Wellington Government he found that the Government wasdetermined to proceed1 with the purchase of land in the West Coast (the Manawatu), to the utter neglect of the East Coast, though the land there could be got so much more easily than the Manuwatu would be; in other words, that until Ahuriri was safely connected by this road with the capital, the purchase of the Porangahau block was to be deferred to the Greek kalends. He was sure that ministers would have the votes of all the honorable members on the blue bench, the Canterbury- members—one-of whom has ceded Jhis seat to a'n^ease-lovihgjmeinber for the city of Auckland—f6r' theirs was the only province which was indivisible, and therefore could not be' afiectedrby this bill. Those honorable gentlemen would recollect however,that that province had very narrowly escaped, just before its settlement, being cut up and divided between the Provinces of Nelson and Otago; and in that case^ what would have become of the celebrated Cahterbiny plains? He admitted and admired the energy of the veteran Superintendent of Otago, in the management'of the'affairs of his province; but he worked from' the centre, as was dbvie' in Wellington • and -what would have been the position of Canterbury had it been divided between Otag o and Nelson ? ! Why; strictly analogous to-that of Ahuriri at the present time. He (Mr. R) asked the House,: then, not to commit such an act of folly as to stereotype the temporary division of the colony into provinces according to the ideal lines of Sir George Grey —divisions which nature never intended :to exist. He would ask-them to look for tlie; natural divisions of provinces in accordance with the principle so admirably laid down in the 'Instructions'of 1846:— - ; '

"6. In determining the number and the extent of the said boroughs,'and in'defining the ( met"es and bounds "thereof, the Goyernor-in-Chief shall be guided by1 a consideration—first, of the populousness and wealth of-the different Municipal districts into which such parts as aforesaid of the said Islands maybe divisible: 2ndlyrby a consideration of the general community of localihterests which may subsist between the inhabitants of particular districts; and 3rdly, by a consideration^'tlVe facility of access from the different'parts of such districts to the capital town thereof;1 all Avhieh' considerations shall be balanced, combined; and; adj usted by: the Go-verrior-in-Chief to the best of his judgment, and as far as it may appear to him practicable'inthe case of every such district." That very-'nearly explained the idea of ministers as embodiedI'in this measure; and if any hon. . member would assist in making the measure more'perfect, they would be most happy to accept such assistance. As he had said, they Were so little' disposed to take power to themselves, that- they were quite' willing to give up the veto vested in them in the first clause. They only wished-to have the formation of the new provinces depend upon the wish of the pebple and_natural- boundaries; arid he would be a h^ dy man indeed Svho would stand up against the wish of the people and nature. But it might be said," Oh, you are a very cafty set of men; you wish to divide and destroy; you: are Centralists; you are going to: make -a riuinber of new'provinces, over which you inays exercise control,'arid thus pave the way for getting' the :p6wer;: all into your own" hands." This' was a complete fallacy. 'He contended that they were taking the" Very steps that wbiildrendercenitralisih ■impracticable, and'the interference!6f the 'General; Government in' purely: local"' matters impossibleJ Arid their whole'policy asaMinistry, had.shewn their sincerity in'that respect. *6r'-Himself lie'had always■' stood out' against the idea of "Six Colonies"^—the title of a book 'well 'known to 'hon. -members. The idea: was absurd; : Ypti! 'could riot'establish six permanent colonies in these islands; 'hatu're1 would be too nnich' for you. The division made By Sir George

Grey was evidently only temporary; he (Mr. R) would not do that able gentleman the injustice to suppose he ever meant that .division- to be perpetual; for he must have foreseen that as the country, became developed and; populated, those provinces would become neither the one thing nor the other; they would be too large for local self government, and too small for. the protection of the general interests. He would ask the House to consider the hardship and injury that would be inflicted by the rejection of this bill upon the inhabitants of important outlying districts like Haw Ice's Bay. They had seen what was the testimony of the inhabitants of Ahuriri as to what "the existing provincial government had'done for that district; and were they to keep them waiting two years longer for local self-government— to wait until the orange was sucked, andthe parent province chose to offer it the skin—to wait, that was, until all the waste lands had been sold and the public revenue mortgaged, and until local government would not be worth the having? But it had been said "you-should have come down to the House with a special bill for Ahuriri:" Government, however, had not yet positive information that Ahuriri was prepared for local self-government; besides, they were not going to come down with a bill to cut up One particular province because they believed that to be tlie only district likely to come under its operation for some time. They preferred, therefore, coining down with a bill which would. meet the case of Ahuriri, and also enable other districts similarly situated to avail themselves of its provisions. Talk of "injury to existing pi-ovinces:" he could recognize no injury except that which was done to the people by the continuance of the present state of affairs. He believed that this measure would prove for the benefit of every province, so soon as outlying districts were prepared to avail themselves of it. As to the particular province immediately in question, and which would be first affected by this measure; he sincerely wished that that province vhad been more adequately represented in that House this -day —that the merits of this measure could have been more closely debated than they would be; —he would have liked to have met the grand hierarchof ultra-provincialism face to face, and to have had a fair stand-up fight between the principles of local self-government, and ultra-provincialism. His own colours were nailed to the mast; he should like to see other lion, members forced to declare this day whether they were really in favour of local self-government or not. He wished from his heart that the fate of the Ministry rested on the vote of this day, on which depended, for many years to come, whether this colony was to have local self-government or ultra-provincialism. ■ :

Captain Caugill 3trongly objected to the bill,"on the ground of the excessive powers: it vested in the Ministry, and Enlarged on the injury that would be inflicted on Otago if a separation took place in accordance with the prayer of the Muhiriku petition. The hon. member gave his version of the preparation and progress of that petition in detail, repudiating its statements, and denying its representation of the general sentiments of the inhabitants of that district.

Mi\ Ollivier was obliged to oppose the measure now before the house. The hon. Colonial Treasurer had said that this was the most important measure of the Session ; and it was so for a variety of reasons. He had felt 'much surprise, indeed, when the measure was laid on the table —for that was the first intimation the House had had that any such measure was in contemplation. It had been in fact so hastily prepared, that Ministers had already found it.necessary to issue afresh draft, containing such important alterations, as to render it almost a new Bill, so that it was absolutely essential to ask the hon. Colonial Treasurer upon which of the two Bills he meant to take the .opinion of the House, whether upon the first or second draft, in which latter the alterations had been most judiciously made from an evident necessity that had been felt to catch certain stray votes, and so insure the Bill from otherwise certain rejection. There had been a general expectation that a Bill would be introduced this session, with a view to harmonize the legislation of and to control the powers of the various provinces; but that this measure did not effect; on the contrary, the operation of this bill would be to introduce different and perhaps clashing powers of legis-T lation within the area of the original provinces; in proof of which he would draw the attention of the House to the 6th clause of this bill, as compared with clauses 28 and 29 of the Constitution Act, which were yet unrepealed—[Mr. Ollivier here read the contrasted clauses]. The hon. Colonial Treasurer had told the House' he would have no objection to alter this point, to repeal the veto of the Executive, so as to make the measure imperative; but if this was Ithe course going to be pursued by Ministers throughout, to consent to have important.details altered in committee, it betrayed a consciousness on their part of hasty preparation of a measure that ought to have been most carefully considered before it was introduced. No case had been made out in support of the bill. Only two petitions asking for separation from existing provinces had been received—that from Hawke's Bay, and from Murihiku. He thought it was hardly fair in the Ministry, knowing as they did their power in the House, and how strongly they could appeal to its sympathies—to have brought forward a measure, the immediate object of which was the detachment of one of its most important districts ■ from the Province of Wellington,'in the absence of any member from that province, except the hon. Speaker-^whose tongue was tied so long as he sat in that chair. !But if the restrictions on the powers of the new Superintendents were beneficial in their case, why did not Government also propose to apply them to the existing Provincial Governments ? [A remark was made by Mr. Domett to: the effect, that" if the experiment succeeded with the new provinces, it could be afterwards applied to the old ones]. He could only regard this as a side-winded attempt on the part of Government to destroy the Provincial Governments, by throwing in a grenade in this bill, among them; for its effect would be, just what was hoped, to show them out in their most unfavourable colours, and so lead the colony to ask the General Government to suppress those Gmi.Tiuijent.s

altogether. But why, he would ask, had not the Ministers proceeded with their original intention to introduce a l>ill for creating Municipalities; to meet the wants of Districts like Hawke's Bay and Murihiku ? The honourable Colonial Treasurer had said they had carefully considered such a measure, but found it surrounded by so many ' difficulties, that they were obliged to abandon that intention and adopt the present bill instead. Now, from his (Mr. O's.) experience of the working of Municipal Corporations in England, he knew that .they possessed powers very! similar to those proposed to be given to these new provinces ; among others, those Corporations had power to pass bye-laws for the management'• of their affairs—these bye-laws were transmitted to the Secretary of State—and if not disallowed by him within three months, they had all the force of law. Why could not a similar method be pursued with regard to the proposed new provinces, such powers as would enable legislation for fencing, for prevention of scab, for local gaols, for public works and the like. The hon. Colonial Treasurer had said that, in fixing the boundaries of the existing provinces, Sir George Grey had laid down cut-and-dried ideal lines; and it was known that this was, done without any regard to the natural features of the country. How were these new provinces to be called into existence? The second sub-section merely prescribed that there must be 1000 souls, men, women, and children, of whom, pursuing the usual laws of division, not more at the utmost than 250 would be qualified registered electors, and of those three-fifths might at any time call for the erection of their district into a distinct province. Then the sth clause defined the limits of distance within which they were to be described, and the 6th declared that they should not exceed in extent three millions of acres. Clause 3 took from the Superintendent and gave to the Governor the power of amending bills transmitted for his approval; he was not disposed to quarrel with this; he believed it an amendment, but if it was so desirable for the new provinces, why was it to be denied to the old? So far as the province of Canterbury was concerned, it would not be much affected by the bill, for there the prescribed distance from the town would carry them to their northern boundary. In the south, at Timaru, possibly when population became concentrated, it might sometime hence be applied—his opposition to the measure was therefore not selfish. No other province could be created within the province of Canterbury. He was not disposed to deny the right of Ahuriri to separate representation; but the House ought to be satisfied of that right—and so in every other similar case; now what was there before it — two petitions. Murihiku had been quoted; he would call the attention of the House to the vague character of the allegations contained in the. petition from that district. The House was called upon to legislate on " may-bes," on vague probabilities. Were these sufficient reasons for creating a district into a new province? Again—the provinces had certain revenues to distribute, and would any one. veniure to say that these revenues had not been" more or less distributed for the benefit of those provinces.-—[Mr. Stafford: Oh,—Ahuriri.J-Vrhe hon.—Colonial Secretary said, " Ohj Ahuriri;" but would he say the same of his own province?—[Mr. Stafford: Yes.] —More shame then for him, more shame seeing that it was he who was the first toadminister the government of his province under the new constitution, not to set a better example ito those who came after him. He contended that more or less there had been a fair distribution of the revenues over the provinces in various public works. In Murihiku there had been some £6000 spent in surveys—and various other items of expenditure which had resulted in large liabilities still unsatisfied. Were these charges to be borne by the present province or were they to be shared by the province that was, to be? The Colonial Treasurer proposed no "means to refund this money. Clause 11 of the bill provided only for the liability under the New Zealand Loan Act.—[Mr. Richmond: We propose to refund the balance.] He regretted the attack had been made in the absence of the Wellington members, which he thought was in bad taste. He Avas sorry none of them were present; had they been he did not believe the House would have heard anything, either of the attack, or indeed of the bill now before it. He believed the Government would not have dared to introduce it. In conclusion, he would state that he must oppose this bill from a conscientious feeling that it was not required; and he therefore now moved that it.be read that day six months.

Mr. Hall seconded the motion, reserving his remarks for the present.

Dr. MoNßOwas reminded by the remarks of the hon. member for Christchurch (Mr. Ollivier) of the old saying, that it was " more easy to preach than to practice." That hon. member had condemned the baseless assumption on which the Murihiku petition had been received, and yet a few minutes after he presents the House Avith an assertion equally baseless—that if the Wellington members had been in their places, they would have opposed the bill with one voice. Such an assumption was entirely gratuitous and could not be supported by any proof. He was by no means inclined to agree with that opinion. He had good reason to believe that those hon. members had become wiser, and that their views on the subject had \mdergone considerable modifications. He (Dr. M.) believed that the interests of his own province might be affected by this measure, for a very strong feeling for separation had shown itself amongst the settlers of the Wairau district; —their petition would have been up, but that it had been afterwards thought desirable not to ask to be made a province, but a municipality. The provinces of .New Zealand were both too large and too small. He believed every person had made up his mind on the subject,— he should vote for the measure, for he believed it an excellent one. It might be said that it would injure existing provinces, but he knew nothing about that. He did not understand that they had any vested rights, or that their boundaries were definitely determined. He believed that if his friend Mr. PitzGerald had been theve he would have voted for the measure. That gentleman was an ardent admirer of local

self government, and he (Dr. M.) well remembered that while conversing with him on one occasion he had declared his conviction that if but three men were placed in an isolated position, they should immediately set about organising a system of local self government. The bill would retain the advantages of local self government. Many of the Provincial Governments had assumed a position of authority and arrogance to which they had no claim, and he should not be sorry to see that arrogance checked, and the provinces taught their legitimate position. He had a great respect for honest provincial institutions, altiiough he was willing to admit they had their faults; but he was strongly opposed to the mere sham and mock assumption of power which had too often characterised them. It would be seen by the division on the measure before the House, who were the real advocates oi local self government, and so distinguish what was only pinchbeck from what was real and honest local self government

Mr. Ward remarked that this Bill, which was the bonne louche of the business of the Session was presented at a period when there was but little time to enjoy it thoroughly; its importance deserved more consideration than it was possible to give it. The measure contained several good points, bnt it was objectionable in the leading and prominent features. Whether voting for or against the second reading, he believed good reasons could be found to justify either course. He Mr.W., recognised the propriety of granting fuller powers of self-government to certain districts in t.ie colony; and he also preferred that these new powers should be similar to those of existingprovinces, rather than lower and subsidiary: a revision of the colony was better than a subdivision in which the new districts would be oependent on the present provinces. He also liked,- generally, the provisions contained in the I.ill for determining what the condition of the new provinces should be; a bill which should be brought in to establish any particular new province, having the conditions which were provided as general rules in this Bill, would, he thoughtbe readily accepted by the House. Further, 0 he attached little weight to any objection against the constitution of new provinces on the ground of expense and difficulty in maintaining the establishments of government. One of his objections to the measure was that which the Colonial Treasurer had endeavoured to combat beforehand, namely, the difference between the bill promised and the bill introduced. It was all very well for Ministers to allege that a Municipalities Act, for the present purpose, was the same thing as a New Provinces Act; but in point of fact the promises of the former did not at all convey the idea that such a bill as the present was intended, and therefore it had all the effect of novelty. After making the promise Ministers had, as the Colonial Treasurer said, found it necessary to grant to the proposed municipalities powers which were inconsistent with the name, and which in fact were nearly those of provincial|legislatures;Jand therefore they had given the bill the more appropriate name. It was very true that no object would have been gained by retaining the old name when the meaning was altered; but members who were not in the secret could not follow the intentions of Ministers—could not be aware that it would be found necessary to make the measure more compendious; and therefore were naturally surprised, after expecting a bill with the provisions indicated by the former title, to receive a bill whose provisions required the latter title. The difference in meaning between a municipalitv and a province had been shewn by the Colonial Treasurer himself, and by the hon. member for the Waimea, to be very great. He Qslx. W.) much preferred the provincial form, but he must urge that the objection of novelty against the present measure was a valid one. But there was a much more serious novelty than this, and one of which no announcement had been made one which; could not possibly have been anticipated—and which to him was highly objectionable: that was the proposition which appeared in the first clause, that the Assembly should totally resign its power of determining what districts of the colony should be elevated into separate provinces. This was the real question at issue in the measure; and was that, not only for the late and hurried introduction, but for the intrinsic impropriety of which, he should be compelled to oppose the second reading of the J bill. There were some objections of less import- ! ance—one being the irregularities which were proposed to be introduced between the constitution of the new provinces and the old. Another concerned the intention of the measure. The bill contained general and complete provisions for the constitution of any number of provinces which ever hereafter might fulfil the conditions required. But, in fact, there was but one district which at the present moment, or possibly for a considerable time, could enjoy the benefit of such an act. It would be infinitely preferable for a single case to bring in a particular measure, the facts of which the Assembly could determine on; and if the conditions of the proposed province were those generally tallying with the requirements of the measure now before the House, such a bill would, of course, be assented to —at least, as readily as the present. But the "New Provinces Act" was a mighty engine—much too compendious for a partienlar case; the district of Hawke's Bay being the only one to be affected, the measure before the House fitted on its object as badly as a purser's shirt upon a handspike. He was bound to say that a bill of the present sort was admirably calculated to gain support in the House, for every hon. member who was concerned for a ! district which might at some future day like to have a separate constitution, would rather make sure of having the boon when called for, than be obliged to submit the claim of the district to the criticism of the Assembly. He (Mr. W.) claimed for the representatives of Canterbury impartiality in this matter, since the geographical position of that province was such as not to raise the smallest probability of a separation of any portion for a very extended period of time. The House must also consider that this was in tact legislation upon the subject of the separation of the Province of Wellington into two provinces. It was not quite proper to do so in the absence of the representatives-of that province—and even of that particular portion whose interests wore bvinjr 'considered. IK-

would ask, even supposing the bill were a special one, would hon. members feel quite satisfied in assenting to it without having more facts before them than the one memorial from the the district of Hawke's Bay; and in the absence of those members who could speak with knowledge on the question? For these reasons, which he had stated as candidly as he could, he felt obliged to oppose the second reading of the bill, though as far as the minor provisions went he should be generally contented with them. If the House decided in favour of the proposition, that its powers should be given up in this matter, he (Air. W.) would probably be found supporting the other clauses in committee.

Mr. Foksaith fully believed in the truth of the opinion expressed by the hon. member for Waimea (Dr. Munro) in the concluding part of his speech. The issue of this debate would reveal to the country, who amongst the members of the House were the real, and who were but the pretended, friends'of local self government. As the firm and unflinching advocate of local self government he stood up to declare his intention of supporting, in general, the principle of the bill, reserving the right of endeavouring to procure in committee certain modifications in some of "its details. It appeared to him that advocates of the principle of local self government could not, with any shew of consistency, oppose this measure. Its opponents, in fact, were assuming this position. They professed to be advocates of local self government, but they shrunk from the proposal of carrying out the principle in its fullest extent. Local self government had no charms in their eyes, unless it were bedecked with the pompons trapping of official dignity. They had no desire for the principle as it appeared in its own natural and simple form. It must be accompanied by those pretentious appendages, which had been pithily described as the cocked hat, and the peacock's feather, then and there only would it find favor with them. The real point at issue was whether local self government should be further extended or not. Hon. members who opposed the bill should either show that local self government should not be extended, or they should produce or give the idea of a better bill than the present one for doing it. But no one had dared to make the first assertion. Every one bad admitted that local self government should be extended; nor had any one denied that more provinces than the present were to be created. His hon. friend the Colonial Treasurer had anticipated him here, and had put the case well to the Canterbury members. Had only five settlements existed, when the Constitution Act was passed, and had Canterbury been established since and found its present territory already portioned out to other provinces; had its settlers found themselves ground between those upper and nether millstones, the Superintendents of Nelson and Otago, he thought the hon. members for Canterbury would have regarded a bill for making new provinces with rather different feelings from those shown now. Or had Hawke's Bay, for instance, then been settled, who can deny that the Constitution Act would have made seven provinces instead of six. There was no possibility of doubt or denial that the original principle of the Constitution was that the number of provinces should be increased. If this be admitted, then would the opponents give them a design for a better bill? He would defy them to do it—looking at it as a whole. There was one other objection that he might notice, and that was, that the bill.was brought in in the absence of the members for the: Province of "Wellington. All he had to say on that point was that if the passing of this bill was dependent on the absence of those members, then he was glad they were absent. If it did not, then he would have been glad had they been present. Their presence would not have altered the truth, nor the side on which right and reason lay. He believed firmly that the bill would put into execution a great principle, the securing of which was of inestimable importance to the future welfare of the colony. If all this benefit —if a measure which would save New Zealand from being cut up into six separate states, with all the rivalries and dissensions, jealousies and weaknesses attendant thereon, depended on the absence of any members, then he would rejoice in their absence. If an opportunity had been given to. ministers by fate or good luck—a providential opportunity, which might possibly never again occur, of doing this great good to New Zealand, then he would, say that the ministers were not only justified in taking advantage of it, but that they would have been guilty of a dereliction of duty had they not done so. . Before sitting down he would add that, for himself, if he had consulted his personal interest in the matter, he should oppose the bill, for he Avas an officer of a province, and no doubt his interest would be that the provinces should be maintained to their present extent and importance. But the measure was one highly beneficial to the colony at large, and he should give it his cordial support.

Mr. Domett said that all the main ai'guments in opposition to the measure had been answered, and had therefore left him very little to sny. He could heartily support it. It had been said that it -was too large, but he thought it quite necesary to have a measure which would meet the requirements of the case, and not wise to pursue a tinkering style of legislation, but propose a good bold measure at once, like the present one. It was also made an objection that the constitution of new provinces would be different to that of the old ones. "But he looked upon that as an advantage. It was an experiment in which some of the defects of the old system would be avoided. He believed that the real point was whether the principle of Local Self-Government was to be extended or not. He did not think a better bill could have been introduced. It had been said that it ought not to have been introduced when the Wellington members were not present. Well, it was his opinion, that if the measure was really a beneficial one, and would be found to work well, as he believed it would,— that it was a very fortunate circumstance that they (the Wellington members) were absent, if their presence would have prevented the passing of the measure. He even looked upon it as a providential opportunity that should not be lost.

Mr. C.vrleton 'supported tiie bill. He was agraab y .surprised by the speech of the hou. mem I ec for the City (ilr. iuirsaith). and liad to tliank lnn> tor lirawiiifj attention 1.0 tlie- unequal

-division of the Provincial revenue, as regarded 'the district he (Mr. C.) represented, the Bay of ■Islands.—The hon. member then proceeded to advocate the bill as a necessary step towards reducing the provinces to their proper position.; declaring himself to have been always in favor •of a strong central Government, and of genuine JLoeal Self-Government. Mr. Daldy said that the Provincial Governments had assumed powers to which they were -not entitled, und which the present ministry had ■wisely re-assumed, but the present bill went to -annihilate liOcal Self-Governmentaltogethei*, for 'it would create a number of small nnd helpless X>rovinces, which would have to apply to the -General Government for assistance.—Such a measure was a mere sham of Local Self-Govern-ment. And where, he would like to know, was 'the necessity for such a bill? Upon the strength of one application for Local Government, the ministry came down with a measure of the most extensive and important nature upon the assumption that some districts might claim the privilege ■of being elected into separate provinces. Several iio doubt would cry out for it, and at first be •much pleased with the power. But they would soon find out that they had made a mistake—for they would be saddled with a heavy expenditure, which none of them would be able to bear. He could not understand the splitting "up of the provinces into small sub-divisions for the purposes of Local Self-Government; -such system could not be productive of good. 'The result would be that perhaps a dozen help'less lilliputian provinces would be hanging on the General Government. He could not conceive anything which would operate more injuriously upon the real prosperity of the colony. It would also have the effect of defeating- the native policy, for in many cases the whole power in a province would be in the hands of the natives, and they would without doubt take -advantage of the weakness of the settlers, and defy the General Government, to whom those settlers would apply in common for protection. He trusted that hon. members would carefully -consider the effects of this measure if it passed into law. Let them look at the effect of establishing small provinces; in the case of Taranaki .£20,000 had been lent to that province, free of interest, to enable it to keep itself afloat. It would be found impossible for the House to prevent the small provinces proposed from bringing themselves into debt, and being reduced very ■quickly to a state of pauperism. He should oppose the measure with all his power

The debate was adjourned on the motion of -"Captain Haultain. ' *

August 5. debate resumed.

The discussion was resumed by Mr. Brown in favor of the Bill, followed by Messrs. Graham and Brodie, whilst Messrs. Williamson and Haultain opposed the measure; the former (Mr. Williamson) occupying the floor for a considerable time.

Mr. Packer believed the House was in an un- ; fair position to deliberate at all on such a ques- I tion—a question of the very highest importance to the interests of the colony at large. The Canterbury members had determined'to come "Tip at the call of duty and attend to the business of the country—but it was under the impression that the present would be a very short session, ■and that they would, soon after passing a few unimportant bills and the estimates, be allowed to return to their homes. When asking the ministry as to the measures likely to occupy ■; Iheir attention, they were told that nothing of ! very great importance would be brought forward, i But it had proved quite the contrary. A "very i large number of measures had been brought forward, and some of them of the highest impor- j tance—and now, in the very last week of the j session, the most important bill of all had been 'brought down by the ministry. He would ask -was it right to introduce such a measure at that ■^period of the session, and in the present thin ■state of the House? If the ministry had acted "fairly, they would have given notice of such a till now, and brought it forward next session. 'It was another proof to his mind of the policy pursued by the ministry through the session—a grasping after all the power of the provinces, anlcontrasting it in their hands, they tookadvantage of their power, and adopted it as a serious and deliberate policy.' He wished to see the ministry strong, but he desired to see them use their power prudently, and for the good of the country. He hoped the House would not the present bill to pass.

Mr. Mookhouse—The hon. Member (Mr. Graliam said he had waited in vain for any arguments against the bill. He (Mr. M.) was loade'd with arguments ; but like the Superintendent of Auckland, lie feJt somewhat diffident of his powers of ora--tory. He had given this bill his most careful consideration, and had endeavoured to do so -dispassionately. Although he was Superintendent of his province, and might perhaps b3 •therefore supposed to have some jealousy or fear •of this measure leading to a diminution of the powers of his office, he had none. At the same itiraehe would not take credit to himself for this state of feeling. There was little fear of any movement for separation in Canterbury—and one reason was the good sense that had always and still existed in that province. Hereafter there might be a state of things arise that would •originate such a movement, but he was not apprehensive that that would be the case for a long time to come. Selfishly speaking, he ought rather to support this bill, for it would improve the position of Canterbury towards the rest of the colony, for so long as provinces continued in existence, Canterbury must retain her present high position. He was surprised to hear sensible men resort to such arguments in support of the bill, as that the present Superintendents desired to begaud themselves with peacocks' feathers. Such arguments were unworthy of that House, and he would not further notice thsm. One hon. member (Captain Hcultain) had said he should oppose this bill, purely because of the absence of the Wellington members. On the other side it had been said that if the Wellington members chose to absent themselves they must take the consequences. There was a ;good deal of truth in that argument. On the other hand, they must look to the peculiar positionof affairs in Wellington ; there were two political parties there, each believing its predo.ininauce would bs beneficial to the province;

and'bdth had come to the conclusion that it was more their duty to remain in Wellington than to come up to the Assembly. But how would it have been, had the Wellington members been forewarned that Ministers intended to bring forward such a measure as this ? They would have been here, and if they had been here, this bill would not have been brought forward. He

believed it would not have been, at least in its present shape, for in such case it would certainly have been rejected. Knowing this, as they would have done, he believed that. Ministers, with that prudence which had marked all their proceedings, would have kept this little bill in their bureau. Members had been told they should not indulge in clap-trap. lie quite concurred in that. But he had never heard more undisguised clap-trap, than he had heard thatday from lion, members, from whom he had expected better tilings. The chief reason that had been assigned for bringing forward this bill, was the treatment of Ahurirf by the Wellington Government, and that the sums of money it was entitled to have spent in its district had not been spent. He could easily believe that the Wellington Government might have felt it their duty in the first instance to improve the means of communication with the capital, [Mr. Richmond : To beautify the Empire City]—before proceeding to make partial beginnings in various parts of the province. It was astonishing how lion, members changed their opinions day by da}'. One hon. member (Mr. Domett) said the other day that there were no such natural inequalities or physical and social differences between the several provinces, as to require different legislation : that was said in the debate on the Waste Lands Act.

Mr. Domett here entered into an explanation of his meaning in the debate referred to.

Mr. Moorhousb continued : Now, on the contrary, it was alleged in support of this Bill, that there were such insuperable geographical divisions in the several Provinces, as to render it essential that new provinces should be erected. But he would ask if it were laid down as a rule (as was the case) that there was nothing to hinder the General Government from taking upon itself the Government of the whole colony, what was to hinder the Provincial Governments from exercising their authority over the much more circumscribed limits, comprehended within the ideal lines that had been so much talked of? When this bill was introduced, he was not astonished to hear the hon. Colonial Treasurer admit that there "were some objectionable features, which the Government proposed to alter and modify. He had seen a similar course pursued as to other measures, and it was no doubt a very ingenious one. Ministers anticipated that there would be objections to '• the veto " on the part of the Government of the day. So they put it in, in order to take credit for abandoning it. It was an excellent dodge :—first of aIL Ministers put some great objectionable feature prominently in their bills, to catch the weight of the opposition, and then a new draft of the bill, removing the objectionable feature, was put forward,*in the hope that the real pointy being comparatively less prominent, might slip through, without opposition. Then there -was the bait held out to Superintendents in the promise of patronage :

nobody was to be appointed to a Provincial office, except on their recommendation ; but he would remark, that Superintendents knew their proper position and powers under the Constitution Act; and knew what was their right. It had been also said that this measure would tend to destroy the "centralism" of Provincial Governments. But as he understood centralism, he believed that nothing could be done more calculated to foster centralism, and to foment local and provincial discords, than this avbitary separation of tha colony into small blocks, having all the power and machinery of Provincial Governments. He gave the General Government credit for good intentions, and a desire to serve the colony •, but their leading object throughout the session seemed to have been to introduce such measures as wo jI 1 cit down the Constitutional powers of the Provincial Governments, and especially this last measure, which was introduced on the principle of neutralizing one force by bringing into exercise an antagonistic force. If there were any security for the permanence of this system of dividing up the colony into small blacks, he should feel that, as the Superintendent of the undivided Province of Canterbury, ' lie would become the greatest man in the colony. But he had no faith in this bill as securing that permanence. The Ministry said this measure would not affect Canterbury—he believed it would. So soon as this bill had served its end by bringing about that miserable state of things which was certain to ensue, Ministers would come down with another bill to reduce all the provinces to the same level. He therefore could not, with that conviction on his mind, be such a traitor to his own province as to support this bill. He would not detain the house much longer. He desired to do only his duty, in offering his emphatic opposition to the measure ; and he would go further than the hon. member for Lyttelton (Mr. Ward) for he would offer every legitimate opposition to it in committee—and, if it were carried, he promised Ministers he would do his utmost to promote its repeal in another session. He would not be misunderstood. He did not oppose it because it was a measure of the present Ministry, but because lie believed it to be fraught with injury to the whole colony. As to the particular district of Ahuriri, he believed there had been a large expenditure in that part of the province of Wellington, beyond what had been disclosed to the house. At any rate, he would have the house remember that even lesser tribunals recognised the justice of hearing, any party whose interests might be affected by their decisions, before pronouncing judgment. Mr. Stafford made a lengthened attack in detail on the various speakers who had opposed the measure, but our limited space prevents our giving more than the following quotation from the commencement of his address :

Sir, this is one of those sterling measures winch are founded upon abstract justice, and upon what, wherever representative government exists, is recognised as an undeniable right: and when I review the feeble opposition which is preferred against it, I can well sympathise with those who have indeed an up-hill battle to fMit when they find themselves compelled to refuse

to others those rights of free men winch they have struggled to obtain for themselves, and the possession of which they now enjoy. 1 say 1 can sympathise with, and make lull allowance for, the hesitating and faultering manner with which men are obliged to coyer their intention of trampling upon rights which belong to then fellow colonists equally with themselves, lor these are the same men who for years raged against the tyranny of Downing-street and the despotism of an irresponsible Governor-who eloquently preached the inalienable birthright of self-government, and claimed for themselves the power of making their own laws and spending their own money. And it is a just cause for regret as well as sympathy to find that having obtained for themselves that tor which they so ablv contended, they would now turn upon their fellow-settlers—upon the men who unassisted have gone into the wilderness—have discovered and improved the capabilities of distant districts—and deny to them the same privileges, because they.are few in number, and not strong enough to compel justice; that these are the people who, become prosperous themselves, stigmatise the people of outlying districts as paupers, who would not have the means of paying for government themselves, but must continue to have their means taken to gorge the plethora of tetrarchs of fishing villages. '"Mr. Hall said the speech he had just heard was oue, whicb, if ho hnd had his eyes shut, he could at once have told was addressed to an overflowing gallery ; th^s accounted for the Colonial Secretary's zeal in favor of popular rights, and for his sudden sympathy for the industrious dwellers in the wilderness, and the hnrdy sons of toil abont whom he had talked so much. But for a full gallery nothing would have been heard of this from the honorable gentleman. The Colonial Secretary was ill the constant habit of distorting and misrepresenting the speeches of his opponents, but on no occasion had he done so more glaringly or industriously than that evening. The objections to the statements of the member for Christchun-h Country districts as to the 'introduction of the bill before the House was a mere unworthy quibble. The assertion, in auswer to the same member that evideuca with regard to Hawkers Bay had been before the House was unfounded ; the petition from that district, the statements of -which were necessarily es parte, was the only- document on the table ; the answer to the petition quoted that night had been kept back; the figures referred to by the Colonial Secretary were not to be found in any papers before the House and could not be tested. The part of the Colonial Secretary's speech which did not consist of a misrepresentation of his opponents was simply devoted to a glorification of himself and his Government. It consisted of boasts of the startling novelties he had produced, of the way in which the Government had flown at the different Superintendents, including the ablest of them all, the late Superintendent of Canterbury. Of the last effort, the Government could not boast ranch, for the Superintendent in question had shaken off his assailants as a stag shook off a houud ; the same resale would follow whenever they again ventured to attack him. In the course of the debate it had been often asserted that the opponents of this particular bill must be opponents of the principle of local self-government. It had been his fate to listen ou many occasions to a good deal of claptrap, but any claptrap more bold, reckless, or nonsensical than this he had never beard either in that House or out of it. It was not only not the fact, but was directly .opposed to the fact. For his own part, ever since he had taken auy part in the public affairs of New Zealand, he had been a strenuous advocate of the principle of local self-government. He believed that this principle had done very much to train our forefathers in the right use of representative institutions, that to it was owing the eminent success with which these institutions were worked by the Anglo-Saxon, race, and the amount of real liberty which now Existed in our mother country. He believed that owing to the peculiar circumstances of New Zealand, the extensive application of this principle was urgently called for, that in fact it was doubtful whether without it Representative Governmont would work successfully at all. He also prized institutions of local self-government, because they were conservative elemenis in a democratic constitution. If auy person asserted that he voted agniust the preseDt bill, becanse ho was an enemy to local self-government, he asserted what was absolutely unfounded and false. He (Mr. H.) was inclined to admit that the means by which this valuable principle should be extended in New Zealand, was an increase, as occasion might require, of the number of provinces at present existing. In some cases perhaps municipal institutions might suffice, but in the majority of instances, owing to the extent of territory to be governed and other circumstances, fairly stated by the Colonial Treasurer, it would be belter to make entirely separate provinces. He did not assume that the working of Provincial Institutions had been faultless. There might in some ca<es have been an attempt at parade and an assumption of dignity, which had been facetiously cailed a putting on of il cocked hat and feathers." A prominent instance was that of the Colonial Secretary himself when Superintendent of Nelnon. He alone, of all the Superintendents, whea called upon to address an assembly of gmtlemen sent by the electors to represent them in the Provincial Council, had thought it beneath his dignity to stand up, and had remained seated when delivering his speech. The courtesy of this proceeding was on a par with that shewn by the hon. member in the present litid former debutes, to members sitting on the blue bench. Such conduct, properly termed Provincial arrogance, could not bo put down by auy law such as that now proposed; it would be put down by the good sense of the Colonists generally; in fact the derision with which the hon. gentleman's proceeding was treated iu many parts of the Colony had probably induced him to discontinue it. Upon the whole the Provincial Governments had conferred benefits upon the Colony which considering the absence of previous experience on the part of many of those who were called on to administer them, and the difficulties they had to contend with, were exceedingly great. Ho believed that to increase the number of Proviuces, as wealth and population increased, iu those districts which by natural boundaries, separate local interests, a separate centre of communication, and other circumstances, appear carved by nature into separate Provinces, was the legitimate development of the Constitution Act. This, however was not the question involved iu the Minixterial proposal; it asked the General Assembly to abdicate the trust confided to it by the Imperial Parliament, of deciding from time to time whether circumstances culled for tho establishment of a separate Province, and to transfer this power to the Go | veruor in "Council. This member for the Waimea had attempted to jusiify this by asserting that legislation by Ministers w.as in reality legislation by the GencralAKembly. I f (his were true, why should the same principlu not be applied to other le»s important matters, and hon. member* having indicated the {subjects ou which, they desired legislation io proceed, and empowered Ministers accordingly, be enabled to return to their homes in four weeks instead of four months. A perusal of the Constitution Act showed clearly the importance attached by the Imperial Parliament (o this power of creating now Provinces. It was in the 69th section specially entrusted to the Gen. eral Assembly, and all Acts passed in the exercise of it were to bo reserved for the Queen's assent. The power was too great to trust to any Minixtry, especially in New Zealand where it wan admitted that at the present time we had got Responsible Government itt name only ; if the house should disapprove of the manner in which the proseat Ministers exercised their powers, it could not remove them, Ijuciiuao nuccessors vrould not be forthcoming; the Colonial Treasurer had ntated that under existing eircumstances even this rejection of the present measure would i/ot involve tho resignation of Ministers. Ho, Mr. 11., believed that was a right course, but nhewod that the Le/isluiuro hud at preaeiu no control over tho manner in which the Government used its power. A reference to thu Bill showed to biw mind that thu present advisers of li'h Excellency worn utmost Hho last to whom thu power asked

• for should be granted. Tho Bill transferred, in tho case of new Provinces, all tho powors of tho Superintendent to tho Governor, with a right to dologato them to any person ho thought proper. So that tho new Superintendents could only deal with roads, bridges, and other matters of purely local interest, if allowed to do so at all, as tho agents of tho Governor. This appeared to bo what tho present

advisers of his Excolloncy meant by local Solf-Government

The Colonial Trensnror hud statod that iu committee he should be prepared to give up the veto reserved to tho Governor. Ho had, however, given no pledgo that tho Governmont would insist on this altoration as indispensiblo to passing tho bill ; he, Mr. H. believed that if it went into committee at all, it would iu all probability become law in its present shape. But the removol of the veto, oven if acceded to, aud the giving to districts answering to a few specified conditions, an absolute right to separation, raised objections of another kind. It was impossiblo by a few stiff und starched rules, to deal properly with all cases in which the establishment of a new Province might bo desirable or desired, It should he inu.de to depend upon a variety of considerations—some of which, as tho wealth of the district aud its ability to support a separate Government, were not alluded to iu a Bill—aud on a combination of these} conditions, that could not bo described in a clause of an Act of Parliament. Some cases in which separation might work beneficially would be excluded by the restrictions laid down, while they would admit others in which that Houso would probably have thought it unwise to establish a separate Proviucial Government—to place it in tho power of 150 electors at one end of a Province to insist on its separation, would not, as had been asserted, induce tho Governmont of that Provinco to bo considerate towards its remoter districts; it was obvious that ft number of persons would always bo found desirous of getting the government of such a district into their own hands as soon as the population amounted to 1000 souls, and would present a petition to the Governor for its separation ; its severance, therefore, would depend on the increase of its population, and not on tho care with which it was treated by the Provincial Government. A powerful inducement to considerate treatment of the extremities of provinces was thus put an end to. The ouly safe and pro- I per course appeared to be for the General Assembly to reiaiu^ in its own hands the task of deciding iu what cases new provinces should or should uot be established. The ministerial proposal seemed to him to originate in a want of confidence as to the manner in which the Assembly would discharge the trust: He, Mr. H. believed there was no reason to doubt the impartiality or the prudence of that body. He therefore protested against the abdication of a power which they "were bound to exercise for the benefit of their constituents, aud to hand unimpaired to their successors. Some of the reasons given by the Colonial Treasurer why members should support the second Teading were re-, markable. He asked for the votes of the Canterbury representatives because the bill would not affect their own province, inferring that it was this consideration, and not the good of the colony generally, which determined their votes. He, Mr. H., felt sorry that the honorable member had formed such an opinion of the members of his province, it was one whijh their conduct had not merited. To the Auckland members a tempting bait was held out. The Colonial Treasurer pronounced the differences about the seat of Government to be merely a contest between two powerful provinces ; that their subdivision would put an end to the struggle, and leave Auckland in the possession of pre-eminence, which was her due. He dissented altogether from this anticipation ; but iu any ease, he believed the Government would be disappointed in catching any Auckland votes by it. The time at which this measure, described by the Colonial Treasurer himself as the most important of the session, had been brought forward, was most" objectionable. It ought to have been announced under circumstances affording the fullest opportunity for its deliberate consideration. To keep it back until the last hour of a long session, until the last mail had left for the Sonth, and until no expression of public opinion could be obtained on the subject, and to press it through in the absence of so large a proportion of members of that House, was unjust to the colony at large. He protested against the doctrine of the member for Nelson, that it was right to take advantage of that absence in order to get tho bill passed, because it would, as he thought, be a benefit to the colony. The same principle would justify the representatives from any two provinces, which by a thin attendance in that House .happened to be placed in a majority, in voting to their coustituents' advantages, which they might consider fair aud just, but which were iu reality, mon- | strously unjust. Tiie impropriety of such a proceeding i would be obvious. The absence of Wellington members at the present time was not a circumstance for which the late members were to blame ; they had tendered their resignations at the earliest period afier the expiration of last session at which they could do so. The fact that Wellington was at present unrepresented was attributable to the short time allowed by the Governmeui forthe return of tho writs. It was most unfair to take advantage of the circumstance to pass a measure which would be rejected in a fuller House. Whea he was induced to assist in forming a quorum at the commencement of the session, it was under the belief that the ministry would not press on any important ! constitutional changes without permitting them to be fairly considered by the colony. If the result of the session should bo a radical alteration of the constitution —opposed, as he felt assured, to the general wishes of the colonists, he should deeply regret haviug assisted at its formation.

Mr. Richmond, on rising to reply said. The speech of the hon. memher (Mr. Hall) who had just sat down, contributed very little to the former very few arguments on his side. Mr. Hall had complained that Ministers were seeking to steal a march ou thtjultra-provincialists—he (Mr. R ) might complain that the ultra-Provineialists were stealing a march on the Colony How could it be said that Ministers were taking an unfair advantage of the Provinces when there were four Superintendents in the Assembly, aud when there were three of them (members of this House) on that side where he would have expected to find them. They were acting according to their nature ; he was acting according to his nature, and as a Minister of the Crown ; and he would be Well content to end hin career as a Minister of the Crown in the same charaater as that in "which he commenced it, —a« an advocate of that genuine local self-gov-ernment which hud boon described as " clip-trap." Mr. HAIL explained: He had not said that the hon. Colonial Treasurer's advocacy of this measure, as establishing local self government, was clap-trap ; he did not believe it it was clap-trap; he gave him credit for sincerity. What he did say was, that to charge those who opposed this bill, and on principle, with being enemies of local self government was clap-trap; and he repeated it.

Mr. litCHMOj?B proceeded: It was complained by the opposition that ministers hud taken the House and tho Colony by surprise, and that this measure ought uot to have been introduced in the absence of the members for the province of Wellington. He denied that allegation. The men of Hawke's Bay, in their petition for locul self-govern-ment, meant separation. Ministers, in promising them that self-government, meant separation from Wellington, and Wellington knew that; but those unscrupulous men who ruled that province were playing a dangerous and despotic game. " heads I win, tails you lose;" they refused to uttond to thoir duties in the Assembly, and they must take tho consequences. There was no doubt that ultraprovincialism had got a vary deep hold, not of public opinion, but of power—of power even in this House—so deep a bold, that it was a great wonder to him that, with a House bo constituted, ministers had been able to get as far as they _had done in thoir moderate course of provincial reform. He repeated that that Houso was greatly infected with the virus of ultra-provincialism ; and tho Honse would do well to recognize the importance and danger of allowing that feeling to influence their judgment. When, too, a case hko that of Ahuriri camo before tho House, it would be well that the Superintendent of that province and his tail should retire; he was not a fit judge in such a case, as he (Mr. 11.) believed the division on this bill would show. So far from their being any ground of compluint on tho score of the absence of Wellington representatives, itsoemod to him that the owe of Ahuriri would get as fair a trial from that Houso an it win possiblo to conceive. Ho would notice a few of the observations that had fallen from Mr. Hall, who had been anticipated in most of his remarks by previous njieukers. Tho lion, gejitloinwi began after hia

usual formula, "I cnnnot givo a silent voto;" no man knew what ho could do until bo tri«d; but thut hon inombor, ho (Mr. B.) bolioved, had never given a silent voto either in thiij or lust session. Mr. Hall had tried to throw doubt on thn figures quotod by the Colonial Sei-ro-tnry ; but ho had failed in establishing his point.

Mr. Halt, explained. Ho did not hnpngn tho accuracy of tho figures, but complained that the Rouse had not been put in possession of them till thut night.

Mr. Kichmoxd continued: The lion, memher no douht found it much easier to make that complaint than to disputo tho conclusion to bo drawn from these figures. Tho hon. member also complained of the alterations proposed to bo made in tho bill—and ho (Mr. B.) noticed that tho opposite side were much more disposed to refer to the old than to the new draft. They complained, in fact, of tho modification of provincial powers proposod by the bill. Ministers thought that the existing provinces had had too much g'.ven to them, and therefore proposed that the powers of tho new provinces should bo modified. In somo of the existing provinces—as in Wellington—powers had been assumed which were ludicrously absurd, but which would be far worse if allowed to bo exercised in Ahuriri. On full consideration of tho routine powers possessed by Superintendents, they did not think there was much fear, especially in the altered state of public feeling, of their being abused by tho Superintendent of Ahuriri, and they had therefore allowed them to remain. [The hon. Colonial Treasurer here explained that his observations in his opening speech, as to tho division of its territory between Nelson and Otago from which Canterbury hud narrowlyescaped, referred to the Canterbury Plains, and to a period before tho Provinco was formed.] With respect to the hon. member's argument, that tho passing of this bill, and the probability of its being brought into operation in their proviuce, would rather lead existing Provincial Governments to neglect than pay increased attention to outlying districts, he (Mr. B.) did not think so. But should that be Che effect, he would remind that hon. member that thig. House could step in, and he had no doubt that, in the altered state of public feeling with respoet to provincial legislation, fi'jj would do so. In conclusion, ho would re, mark that ho thought the present measure a great and good measure—that it would do a great deal to sift out what were matters for local from those which belonged to general administration—that it would tend to allay and remove provincial heart burnings and dissentions—that it would advance New Zealand to that pre-eminenee which it was destiued to occupy among the colonies of Great Britain.

The qnesiion was then put on Mr. Ollivior'a amendment that the Bill be read that day six months, which -was lost by voices. A division was then called for, and some amusement was created by the discovery that some Ministorial wag, seeing Mr. Hall go into an ante-room where papers are kept, locked him in and hid the key—a proceeding which had not the effect of causing that hon. member to give a " silent vote," even for this once in his legislative life. He was goon released. The division resulted as. follows: — Ayes,—B. Noes,—l3. Mr. Ollivier Mr. Stafford Daldy Carleton Hall Monro Ward Brodie Moorhouse Domett Cargill Lee Williamson Richmond Haultaiu Beckham East Curtis Brown Forsaith Graham Paired off.—Messrs. Merrinaan (for) and Symonda(against) ; Messrs. Packer (for) and Taylor (against). The amendment was consequently lost. The Bill was then read a second time, and its com' mittal made an order of the day for the morrow.