HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, APRIL 20.

Lyttelton Times, Volume IX, Issue 581, 29 May 1858, Page 3

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, APRIL 20.

Aft*, some preliminary business, the Coroners' | Bill vas introduced by Mrj Stafford, arid.read.a,1 first time. Oh the motion of Mr.Ollivier. 'ithat \ one' General Asylum be established for the r£- } cation' arid treatment of persons of unsound njhd from every part of the colony," a rather; tfdiqus and desultory discussion ensued, result- ' frg in the withdrawal of the.motion; Mr.Olji-; rier giving notice that he would move, for the ap- j pointment of a Select Committee, to whom ] thß, question should be referred.; r j

ADJOCItNED DEBATE ON THE REPLY.

Mr. Carleton, after indulging his humour at \ the expense of the, Governor's new;mode.of ad- { dressing the Assembly, " Honourable Gentlemen • of the Legislative Council, and Gentlemen of the; House of Representatives," proceeded to the second j paragraph of the; address referring to; .the ; half- j million loan. He. .(Mr. C.) could not find in it i any definite statement that ;the "arrangement j with the Union Bank7had been actually com- j pleted. ; Neither did ■- he think' that any- such j statement was intended. ; For he (Mr. G.)knew j that on the 15th of January-last, the engage-j ment had hot been completed for want of a com-] pliance with the terms of the loan' act.' He'had \ intended to go at length xn to this: portion of the j loan question;. but as the Colonial Secretary \ had given notice of his intention to lay all the ! papers before the: House, there was no.present i necessity, toraise enquiry. .Among'those papers j would be found a despatch of: July Jlast from j the Secretary \of State, which would; show the j ministry had made "a-mistake—an oversight, in '• not sending, the Governor's requisition or warrant for the money in.time,'thus hindering the completion of the1 arrangement. [Mr. Stafford, : no]. If not he (Mr. .Q) had'misunderstood the i letter of the Secretary to the Treasury, Mr.; Wilson, which he had read. But he would wait - until the papers were on the table. He would, pass on' to the next paragraph, which stated : that for the successful result of the necessary j negotiations the colony .was rhainly indebted to.'; the ability and' energy of- Mr.fSewell.T These : had never been called in question, and he (Mr. :

C.) most cheerfully bore tiis individual testimony , to the - value of ■; Mr. ; Sewell's ■■■' services. \ In regard, to the disallowance of the "Waste Lands Act, by the r Hoine Government, he was debarred from, saying much, having voted for the entire flnanciat scheme, of which this was : the back hone. Yet he was still glad that he had so voted, were it only for the sake of coming to an amicable, arrangement with the Southern Island about the General Land Fund. "While we were drawing away their land fund, for the purpose of extinguishing the native title in the northern island, he had always felt as if he had his/ hand in another man's pocket. /He also thought that the inconvenience of the disallowance was .'not entirely without remedy. There might even be sonic advantage. He; thought it possible still to legislate for the' provinces, in matters relating, ttf the land, so as to; give them substantially, the advantages conveyed by the Waste Lands" Act, with more security from the danger of abuse. But' the provinces must go upon .faitti, that the spirit of ■ the understanding would not be violatedUV He; could, not agree with the next, paragraph, ■_„ which , stated" that every exertion . had_ been made for "the establishment of Inter-^Provincial steam communication/- The;ministry niight have done their bests but had./noti adopted the bestmeans for the purpose. They should liave se-. cured the services of the Wonga. Wonga. The Provincial Government to which he (Mr. C.) had belonged had "subsidized that vessel to the amountof £4000 for one year, and yet the General Government had refused to give £3000, which would have secured inter-provincial communication. We were next informed that the discovery of a gold: field at Nelsonwas "an- event of importance." He felt grateful for the information; there was no disputing the. conclusion; but it was somewhat of a truism. • He...had, however, been much puzzled by the phrase •'auriferous indications." It was'cohsidered a great merit in Dante that his poetry was addressed to the eye —that, almost every line.could form the subject of a picture; now he (Mr. G.) had been endeavouring to picture to himself an " auriferous indication," but had not yet succeeded. The next paragraph informed them that about one million of acres had been acquired -from the natives; But the statement of the. number .of acres told him nothing he cared to know. He desired to know what was the quality of the land. The . acquisition of bad land was worse than useless: He feared that the; land purchase department had more regard for appearances upon paper than under the plough, and "that they passed much of their time writing complimentary minutes for each other. Large quantities of bad land were easily purchaseable; but they ought to refuse to buy. He (Mr.C.) was beginning to doubt whether it was wise l to borrow £180,0tf0 for the purchase of native lands. That sum would come to an end; anew system >vbuld then have to be adopted; and the question with him was, would it. not have been better to have adopted that new system from the outset. The House was informed by Ins .Excellency that the accounts of the colony had been reconstructed. If the Ministry had really succeeded in cleansing the Augean stable—in disentangling the accounts from the utter confusion in which they had been left by Governor Grey, they had equalled the labours, of Hercules; he would believe it when he saw it,;but not-till then. The House was in-

formed that a bill would be introduced for the

audit of the public .accounts. He hoped that 'such bill, wouid provide for an uniform audit of the provincial accountsallover the colony. The next paragraph was important, k I^-stated that a series of bills for revising the 'eledSbpral system of the colony would be introduced? It was high

time; better late than never;'he gave a welcome to the bills. The following paragraph of the . Bpeech, concerning the administratitin of justice was of equal importance. Batftherotwas a remarkable omission. There wa^'J^o.^infution of any intention, on the part of jthi?;] ministry, to redeem their great error of thteAlast session— their abandoning a portiofl: tof. the crown's control over the admihistration of

tO. all tlie Provincial Governments. Ihe following paragraps of the speech concerned the native race. For these especially, thanks were due. to his Excellency: The pleasantest part of the- duty which he (Mr. C.) had to perform that; day was to bear testimony to the :. steady perseverance with which the ministry, in spite of: all obstacles,—some inevitable} others .;which ought not- to have existed, had pursued their grand object—that of ameliorating the .condition of the native race. Had they done ,this alone they would have been entitled to the gratitude of the colony, , The had a broad field -before, them; his great desire was that they should succeed where .Governor Grey: had failed. Nor could he suffer this occasion to pass without bearing testimony, in which he knew the : Ministry would cordially join, to the assistance which they had received. : They had done much themselves, but they could not do all and ,they had had the merit of perceiving where the best assistance which they had could be found. Tor well-known reasons it was not for Mm (Mr. C.) to expatiate on the details of the measures proposed, But what he mainly desired to impress upon the ministry was this—that they would always be hampered until the fundamental question—the proprietory of the land was settled. In regard to the paragraph concerning the native war at. Taranaki, he (Mr. C), gave, his warmest approval, to .the course which the Government had pursued. They had adopted strong measures to put an end to it. This was not a case to be judged by possible results. He,(Mr. C.) would -fling all such considerations to;the winds. The result of those measures might be fortunate or they might not; no one could tell ; but they had to begin by doing, what they felt to be right in itself, and to 'chance the If Ihaia's pa were taken the women and children were to be indiscriminately massacred, and lhaia himself was to pass a day over a slow fire. Should this take place, without the Government having acted to the utmost of their power, this colony would be held up to scorn in -the mother-country. But they had done their best, and whatever might happen -now our consciences would at least be clear. H (Mr.C.) had no further observation to offer upon what was contained in the speech, but would call attention to one remarkable omission. Large powers of amending the Constitution Act had been conferred by the Home Government, but no mention was made of-the course the Ministry intended to adopt in regard to them. Hiatus maxime de/lendus. It was possible that-the ministry might be unwilling to enter upon such important questions with so small an attendance of members, but he would remind them that there was no certainty of a better attendance at the next session. That session was to be held at Wellington, and the Auckland members would find the same difficulty in attending there which the Wellington members had found in attending here. Upon the whole, he "(Mr. C.) considered the speech as a hybrid—a mule—something between a Queen's speech, which told nothing, and an American President's speech.-'which told everything. Or, if not a mule, it might have been emasculated, when the news arrived that .the Nelson members would not attend.

- Mr. Dalbt moved " that the future consideration of the address "be taken in committee of the whole House."

Mr. Stafford rose to oppose the amendment, a? its adoption would, only lead to the time of the House being..pasted- by discussions which could by no means supersede the "necessary der bates upon the various important measures to which the attention of the House would be called during the present session. (Hear, hear.) Nor could, any statement by Ministers on the present occasion, -however diffuse, be anything but inconclusive and. unsatisfactory, as it rmist necessarily fail to embrace many" subjects on which special explanations as to the policy of the Government would subsequently require to be made. As to the criticism upon the style of the speech, it was fair enough, and nothing more than he had expected. He had never known a speech of the sort which was not open to criticism, or which, was not criticised- for its style; the last speech, delivered, by her Majesty was. an excellent-illustration of this. But the speech of the Ministers, now under consideration, was necessarily couched in the stereotyped form, proper"to Toe delivered by the Crown, as representing not its own opinions but those of the Ministers, and it would be obviously inconvenient if the speech, -were to express explicit opinions, or went further than to invite the attention of the legislature to certain subjects especially requiring, legislation. In reference to the doubt which the laon. member had expressed as to the-accuracy of what his Excellency had been advised to: say with respect to the loan, he need only say that what was stated in the speech was literally correct. Under the arrangement entered into with.the Union Bank, a considerable sum—£4o,oo0 —-fiad already been received by the Government here, and about £160,000 or £170,000 more was to he paid in London on the

; Ist of this month. It was not likely that a i bank of such prudence as the Union Bank

■ would pay so large a sum without being satisi fled as to the finality of the arrangements. The

; hon. member might possibly think that the ar- | rival or non-arrival of the Governor's requisi- | tion to raise certain sums would affect the ar- | rangement; but it was not so, the arrangement ! would hold- good whether the former request as •■ to any particular sum. had or had not been reiceiyed;,and in this ease .the Government had • been so fully alive to the importance of sending ;it home in time that a requisition for £300,000 i had been despatched before it was even known ! that the acts for guaranteeing the loan had been | finally passed. This requisition would reach ■ home last February, for special care was taken to forward it via Marseilles; and to enable it to be sent by the December mail, a special bonus was paid for the convej^ance to Sydney of the mail by which it went. The honourable member next objects, to the announcement that the discovery of gold in various parts of the colony was a matter of great importance as being:a truism. .The honourable member did not appear to impugn, the statement, but objected to it because it was true; it was.certainly an unusual objection to a statement, that it was true, and it was an objection which the Government did not complain of. The term auriferous

indications might not be a good parliamentary term, but it Was a phrase well understood and constantly used by geologists. He was surprised that the hop. member had riot laid hold of a positive fault in" theconstruction of the sentence which , contained that phrase, which, had he not strangely overlooked it, might have afforded him a much broader and fairer target to discharge his classical arrows at. The lion, member next advertedto the £180,000 provided for native purchases, but had not clearly indicated whether he regretted that it formed part of the financial scheme, or wished for some measure to regulate its expenditure; if the latter, he might say that the Government would be prepared at the proper, time to.propose a plan. "The hon. member would, give the Government credit for having kept the expenditure within the means, provided the ex-; penditure of the current year were included in the saving. If the Government had accomplished this it would have been a most skilful piece of; conjuring. The estimates for the current expenditure would be submitted to the house, commencing from October last, and, in reference to that expenditure, they only followed the practice of the. House of Commons, who long after the commencement of the financial year passed the estimates. The accounts for the previous period ; had. been reconstructed, in accordance with the report of the Finance Committee of last session.; It was also dwelt upon, as a remarkable omission, that nothing was said about amending the Constitution Act. Why, two-thirds of the speech referred to it ,in the announcement of measures for amending the electoral law, for regulating elections, and a variety of other matters. But if the hon. member meant that there was no hint given of an intention to produce an entirely new constitution out of the black box of the Secretary or. the Treasurer, he could only say it was because there was'rib intention on the part of the . Government to deal with the Constitution Act beyond amending those details which require amendment, and; not to overthrow or repeal the entire constitution. (Hear.) This was how their ancestors worked, adhering to the principles of constitutional liberty inherited from their forefathers, merely making- such alterations as the experience of ages had shown to be necessary. The Government would be "guided by this well tried practice. (Hear.) He contemplated only proposing special amendments, for special purposes, in their constitution of government which contained a most.ample measure of liberty. As to the speech having been pruned in consequence of the absence of the Nelson members, he might state that not a single word was put in or left out in consequence of the absence of any member. When the speech was written, not a thought was given as to what members might or might not be absent, and the absence or the presence of any members would never prevent that Government -from proposing what it believed to be right or necessary. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Stafford, in conclusion, said he should oppose the amendment of the hon. member for the city of Auckland.

Mr. Daldx would not press the motion as the Colonial Secretary had in some measure done Avhat he required in shadowing forth some of the policy of the government; they required, however, more information. There were still some matters that called for explanation, and in reference to financial measures very little "informa-tion-had been given!* They were told that the r Union Bank had taken up the loan on very fa- ' voarable terms. -For his own part, he was nnder the impression tKi.Xoan_. Act stated the terms on which the loan should vbtf-eflfected, and he felt therefore some difficulty in understanding what deviation had taken place from the terms of the act to make it a subject of congratulalation that the Union Bank had taken up the loan on very favourable terms. With reference to the compliment paid to the energy'of Mr. Sewell he was not disposed to say that it was not deserved, but it must be remembered that the only information they had before them was contained in the blue books of the House of Commons, and he for one must pause before he endorsed all ths statements made by Mr. Sewell before the Select Committee of the. House of Commons, for some of the evidence if correctly printed did nat accord with fact, and should not be endorsed by the Colony of New Zealand. The House also required further information' as to the steps that had been taken to keep up interprovincial steam communication. He thought that much better arrangements might have been i niade to supply this desideratum, taking into : consideration the sums which had been placed ; at the disposal of Government for the purpose. ,; To the want of such communication they had i now to deplore the present state of the House, i [The hon. member, at some length, continued in ; lugubrious strain on our relations. with the j Maori race; but suggested no improvements of his own.]

Mr. Hall said that as the address proposed to '. the House Avas understood to be merely a formal ' echo of his Excellency's speech, and not to con- ■ vey every expression of opinion on what might '■ be termed the policy of the Ministers,- he ; would make but very few remarks: upon it. ■In reference to the second paragraph of his !; Excellency's speech, he (Mr. H.) was anxious to ■\ hear from the Ministry what steps had been ta- ' ken to ensure the payment to the New Zealand ! Company of £200,000 by the Ist of this month; ; because, failing sucli payment, the Act relieving ' our waste lands from the Company's mortgage ! became null and void. He did full ci-edit to the ! energy and ability displayed by Mr. Sewell on ! behalf of the' colony, but he must reserve any i more decided expression of opinion upon the \ subject of this negotiation, until the papers relating to it were before them. He next came to the disallowance of the Waste Lands Act, 1856, which act had been described by the honourable ' member for the Bay as the backbone of the financial adjustment of the last session. He dissen- , ted moat emphatically from that statement. ■The adjustment in question was altogether independent of that act, which, indeed, at one period of the last session the Government had intended i altogether to drop. The financial arrangement .was based on a series of resolutions, which were long and carefully discussed in that House, and which, under a due sense of their importance, were deliberately adopted by a considerable majority. In pursuance of this adjustment large sums had been borrowed for the extinction of native title; £40,000 had been or would shortly be repaid to the Province of Auckland; and the

land revenue was declared to be provincial revenue. This adjustment formed a solemn compact between the six provinces of New Zealand, no part of which could be altered unless by mutual consent. (Hear, hear.) With reference to the extinction of native title, he must, in the absence of Wellington members, remind the House of the serious complaints from that province of the supinencss of the Government in this matter, and of the extent to which they had allowed favourable opportunities for effecting : extensive purchases to escape. He trusted that information would be soon afforded which would enable the House to j-udge how far these complaints were well founded. The next paragraph of his Excellency's speech stated, " I congratulate you oh the steady advancement of the I colony as manifested by the increased revenue of the Customs during the last year." He (Mr. H.) had fully expected to hear his Excellency add, "and on the fact that the gloomy, desponding, and lugubrious views upon this subject so repeatedly expressed by ray advisers in your last, session have been entirely "falsified." (Laughter.) It would fee recollected that the predecessors of the present Government had taken a more sanguine and cheerful view, of the prospects and destiny of the colony; they had estimated the Customs revenue of the then ensuing financial year, as at least equal to that which had preceded it; they did not believe that the steady progress of New Zealand in population, wealth and prosperity, was to be arrested and turned back. With regard to the expenditure of the Government, he shared the agreeable surprise which had been expressed by the seconder of the address, that it had fallen short of the sums voted for the public service. He believed it was almost the only instance of the kind on record in the history of Responsible Government. Very much, however, depended on the items in which savings had been effected. On one of these, viz., that of steam communication, it had been effected at the cost of immense inconvenience and injury to the inhabitants of the colony, es- . pecially of the remoter provinces. It was almost impossible to overrate the inconvenience and the difficulties to which the absence of anything like inter-provincial postal communication exposed persons of all classes, nor the emharassinent to those engaged in carrying on the work of Government. Important communications were replied to in periods varying from one to six months; one of tlfe best officers of the General Government, in his own province, assured him that he now received answers from England in less tiroe than was sometimes required to obtain official answers from Auckland. If the Government had really been unable to obviate this state of things, they would be exonerated from blame, but it would be incumbent on them to shew that they had done their utmost to provide against it. (Hear, hear.) He (Mr. H.) could not help thinking that, in the absence of steamers, fast-sailing vessels should have been employed to keep up, the best possible' communication. An important fact, with regard to the public expenditure, viz., that for the last six months it had been carried on without any authority of law, was nowhere noticed in his Excellency's speech. He (Mr. EL) was not prepared to say that circumstances might not justify this proceeding, but it was a decided infraction of the law, and so serious an assumption of responsibility should surely have been referred to on the very earliest occasion on which his Excellency met the representatives of the people. ! Upon the subject of the tariff the Government announced their intention ofiomo-. dying what they called its " imperfections." If they were acquainted with public feeling on the subject in the southern provinces, they would not have been satisfied with so mild a term. The system of collecting duties by measurement appeared' to him altogether objectionable. Its pressure upon articles of different classes was most unequal, and upon articles of the same class, the coarser and more bulky they were, and therefore the less able to bear taxation, the more heavily they wera taxed. He was sorry to find that Government proposed to adhere to the principle of tonnage duties; the instances of injustice to which it gave rise were almost endless, and could not be provided against by any modification of the present plan. The most important statement contained in the address was probably that referring to the course of events at Taranaki. The procedings which had taken place in that province during the past three j-ears amounted to civil war between her Majesty's subjects of the native race. These persons were being told at the present time that they must not make laws for themselves, as some of them desired to do, because they were the Queen's- subjects, and therefore under the authority of her laws. Yet we practically denied this- doctrine because during three years we had allowed them in defiance of the law to levy civil war against each other, and had taken no steps to vindicate the authority of the Government. He believed that interference should have taken place long ago; that it had not was perhaps not the fault of the existing administration. As to the steps which had now been taken, the speech was necessarily vague; he inferred, however, that a decided stop was to be put to the war now being carried on among the natives, and that, whether on their own land, or land purchased by the crown, they were compelled to respect and conform to the British law. If this was the case, and presuming that the Government had taken the necessary steps for enforcing their orders, he (Mr. H.) thought they had acted wisely as well as boldly, and were entitled to the moral support which the expression of this opinion from independent members might afford. He regretted to find no mention in his Excellency's speech of the course proposed to be adopted by the Government in respect to tho relations of the General and Provincial Governments. In some provinces certain powers were held and exercised by the provincial authorities, in others by the General Government, and in others again the same powers were being excrGised at the same time by both Governments. Great uncertainty and confusion existed upon the subject. In the last session a resolution had been passed by that House, asserting that the relative position of the two Governments ought to be se! tied and defined by the General Assembly. Ho (Mr. H.) had expected, therefore, to find the present Government had taken up the subject. He hoped, before long, to hear from hem a general statement of their inttnded policy

on this and on many other important questions, They had been plac.ed in a very favourable position for maturing such a policy; they had had plenty of time. (" No, no," from Mr. Stafford.) At least a year and a half had elapsed since tie last session, and they met a House in which no formidable party opposition need be apprehended.

Mr. Packer addressed himself at some length to the consideration of the various topics embraced in the reply, and dwelt forcibly on the necessity for immediate steps being taken for establishing inter - provincial communication, which if not speedily established must of necessity revive the question as to a change of the seat of Government. The honorable gentleman expressed his satisfaction generally with ,the reply, the adoption of which he supported.

Mr. Richmond proposed to solve some of this doubts and questions that had been raised during the debate. In the'first place they would be glad to learn distinctly that the negotiations with the Union Bank were complete. It was a moral certainty that the New Zealand Company was by this time paid off. The last despatches enclosed a copy of a communication from the Treasury to the Union Bank, accepting the terms offered by the Bank and recommended by Mr. Sewell, on behalf of the colony. The colony is now, therefore, free from that moral incubus the New Zealand Company's fourths. It was true that the formal agreement was not signed at the date of the last communication, but all the terms of the contract were contained in the correspondence. In reference to the unauthorised expenditure for the. past six months, he would remark that it was entirely in accordance with the practice of the House of Commons that the expenses of the current year should not be provided for until at a late period of the session. Mr. Hall, in his observations on the working of the tariff had entirely omitted to mention that during the last session the tariff was modified and the estimates modified'accordingly. Mr. Fox's estimate under the old tariff was taken at £110,000, Mr. Sewell's at £98,000; but under the new tariff' their estimate of customs was within a few hundreds of £1] 5,000 and the actual produce -was £117,000. He did not agree with Mr. Hall. that the country condemned the principle of the present tariff. At Wellington, though the tonnage duty was objected to, no disposition had been shown to return to the old ad valorem duty; they rather seemed inclined to knock off duty altogether, (laughter) reserving only some 8 or 10 articles upon which a fixed rate should be levied. He would also observe that at a public meeting held at Wellington, the opinions expressed were entirely opposed to the conclusions arrived at by the Chamber of Commerce. With respect to the management of public lands, three distinct things were to be considered: legislation on the subject of regulations, the administration of Jaws, and the administration of revenue; any two might be invested in Provincial bodies, without the- other one. In reply to Mr. Hall's observations, lie could only say that the Government had given proof of their determination to carry out the resolution of last session, to which that hon. member referred, In reference to the remarks that had been made concerning the reply being merely an echo of the Governors speech, he would remind them that it was necessary to be careful not to echo too fully. The house must of course assume the correctness of the statements made in his Excellency's speech; for instance, when they were told that the negotiations respecting the loan had been favourably completed, they -ware bound to believe the statement, and in their - reply .theymerely^exDres^^-Jheir-iDaiification that such should be the case. In matters or-—

detail, the House would of course have a right to seek information, and that information-would not be withheld; .but he did not think-that, either in justice to the Government or to the House^ time should be frittered away in useless discussion, on what the Government had done or proposed to do, wnen such information would be before the Hoiise in the bills which would be brought before them and in the correspondence which would be laid on the table. In reference to the acquiring land from the natives, the Auckland members were not justified in coming to any conclusion as to what had been accomplished, the' purchases which had been effected in the north, "where land came in peaceful. In the south, large and valuable blocks had been purchased. Iv Ahuriri, one to the extent of 25,000 acres was already valuably occupied Again, even in some of the more barren portions in the Northern Province, they must not look merely to the value of the land obtained—they must not overlook one advantage, that when it was found practicable to purchase blocks at 6d. peracre, as at Kaipara, although the land might not be occupied for years to come, a political advantage was gained, apart from any commercial benefit, for the natives never believe the Queen's writ runs on any land not in possession of the Crown. He admitted that the land he had spoken of was not land to pay fancy prices for, but still an advantage was gained in its purchase, from the fact that the Queen's law became established there and that it was incumbent on natives to conform to it. It enabled the Government when occasion required to interfere with a high hand, which otherwise they would be unable to do. A complaint had been made that no indication had been shown of taking steps for the adjustment of relations between the Provincial and General Governments. He thought that the powers of the Provincial Goverments could be best define:! b3 T the action of the General Assembly. The best means of limiting the powers of Provincial Councils would be bjr doing what Avas necessary themselves and not leaving it for others to do. They had no idea of stopping other people from doing that which they were afraid of doing themselves. The hon. member concluded by commenting on the cheering promise of support made by the hon. member for the bay.

Mr. Bkckhiiam replied, and the question was put and passed. On the motion of Mr. Stafford, it was resolved that the Speaker. accompanied, by such members of the House as were willing to attend, should present the reply to his Excellency.

The House then proceeded to the orders of the day. Tlie Interpretation Bill passed through committee, :md the House having resumed, the. 'bill \v;is read a third time and passed.