HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES.

Lyttelton Times, Volume VI, Issue 398, 30 August 1856, Page 2

HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES.

July 16. The House met at 5 o'clock. NEXT MEETING OF. THE .ASSEMBLY. Mr. Stafford, pursuant to notice, —'* That a select Committee be appointed to inquire into, and report, as to the pi-acticability of meetings of the Assembly being held at other places than the Seat of Government, arid the question of the position of the Seat of Government; with power to conduct its proceedings in conjunction with any Committee of the Legislative Council appointed for that purpose, and to make either a joint or separate report. The Committee 'to consist of the Colonial Secretary, Messrs. Henderson, Williamson, Fox, Hall, and the mover. The Speaker expressed his doubts as to the motion being in order, from its close approximation to the former resolution on the subject of removing the Assembty next session to Wellington, affirmed by the House.

Mr. Stafford replied that the two questions differed materially. . The former resolutions referred merely to the removal of the . Assembly, ■whereas the present motion adverted to the practicability, of carrying out that resolution without reference to the seat of Government. The present motion'did not originate with himself, exactly, acting on his own views, but was urged by some of ,the Auckland members, who induced him to renew the question, although a previous notice of a similar nature had lapsed from th.3 House being counted out when the motion was to be introduced. He did not ;hold any very sanguine opinions as to the practical results of the motion from thefact that the members of Government themselves were divided, arid held different opinions on the subject. He thought the former resolution inexpedient, but as it was passed by the House, some further, steps, must be taken, from its incompleteness, before the next meeting of the Assembly r If the former resolution was to be carried out, some arrangements must be determined upon for the transmission of documents required necessarily for the transaction of business. The official arrangements of these matters could not reasonably be expected from the present Ministry, who were themselves divided on the question, having never considered it a Government measure, but merely a matter in which each member represented his own constituency. The motion was principally intended to elicit the views of hon. members, and probe the feelings of the House. The present measure was not introduced to get at the meaning of the last resolution, but merely to inquire into the practicability of its provision being carried into effect. That resolution, he might observe, had been passed by only a very small majority,—nineteen to seventeen, and thus bore less weight,—although virtually of equal effect, —than questions determined by large and decided preponderance of votes. ' The proposed committee he considered to be a fair representation of the several provinces, with the exception of Otago, whose members had all departed to their various homes j for the principal provinces concerned were those of Auckland and Wellington. The committee was formed of equal votes on eech side of the former resolution ; three of the members voted for the next meeting to be held at Auckland, and three for its transmission to Wellington ; and he took it for granted that none of the hon. members had since changed their views, so that the advocates of both provinces would be fairly matched by the constitution of the committee in question. In introducing the subject he had no wish to raise the old question. He was anxious that a similar committee should be formed in the other House, but although a pioposition to that effect was made, it got no seconder, and the project was consequently abandoned. Mr. Carleton seconded the motion without making any observations.

Mt. "V. Smith observed that if the last resolution for ho'ding the next session at Wellington was carried by a small majority, that could not he said ot' the former one that determined th«s desirability of meeting in a more central place than Auckland, which proposition was carried by a' very large majority. The small majority, so much harped upon, was merely upon dm question of Wellington or Nelson being the place of the next lnttuthv of the

. Mr. Carleton disputed the statement of the hon. member who last spoke. When the first question was brought forward, it was questionable if the second should be at'all considered. A distinct resolution was passed against Wellington as well as ■ against Nelson. ■ ;. ' Mr. Merrim'an suggested.,, the propriety o f dividing the resolution into two distinct questions • the one affecting the Seat of Government, and the other the practicability of carrying the former resolution of the House into effect. . . Mr. Fox accorded so far as the carrying out of the former resolution was concerned. This should, be done by a committee of the House, and not by the Government; but the question of the Seat of Government had nothing to do with the matter. To use a techuical term, it wits travelling altogether out of the record. He would move, in amendment, the addition of Messrs. Clifford, Sewell, Brown and Curtis to "the committee, and the striking out of the portion referring to the Seat of Government. He would positively oppose the re-opening of the question, the case having already decided by a resolution of the House.

Mr. Williamson said the question must be considered in regard to the expense.. His decided opinion was, that it was utterly impracticable to have the meeting of Assembly apart from the S§aik of Government. ..There would be an enormous ex-^ pehditure incurred by the removal of not only the necessary documents requisite for the session, but also of the officers of Government; and the question must therefore be necessarily considered by the committee, conjointly with that of the Seat of Government. He could not perceive how both questions could be conveniently considered apart, and must object to the amendment for the omission of the words Seat of Government.

Mr. Bell did not see why the two questions should not be considered apart, as they were perfectly distinct in their nature. It was not anywise desirable, at present; to discuss the question of the Seatof Government, at this protracted stage of the present session ; but the other question had to be settled to carry out the former resolution of the House. ■ ■--■"-■■■■ -■ :

' Mr. Williamson reminded hon. members that they must also consider the expense of providing some person to assume the reins of Government, at the Seat of Government, during the necessary absence of the Governor, if the Assembly met elsewhere. The Colonial Treasurer remarked that, with all -deference to the ruling of the Speaker, he did not see that the present motion was anything.out of order. The present question was merely as to the possibility of holding the Assembly at any other place but the seat of Government. One question necessarily followed the other.. If the former resolution decided that the .next session.would be held at Wellington, and the House again decided that it was impracticable to hold the Assembly '. except at the seat of Government, it followed of course that, the Seat of Government must be at Wellington. They might as well, therefore, open the whole question at once, and he hop 3d, in so doing, that all provincial or party feeling should be set aside, and the subject be discussed in an amicable and deliberate manner. , ■ Mr. Taylor could not see how it was practicable to hold the session of Assembly but at the Seat of Government. To move all the necessary docu- ; ments and persons would be ruinously expensive, besides the trouble and confusion to "be incurred. In regard to the names set down for the Committee, he considered them perfectly fair, and he saw no proper reason for any demur on the subject. Mr. Carleton thought the only way to save the . question from assuming a personal character in regard to the selection of a committee wAuld eto vote by ballot. *4»> Mr. Fox withdrew his amendment, "with the exception of the additional names proposed to be | added to the committee. j Mr. Stafford said that as the House had already j done so much, it was necessary to do more to enable j the Government to do anything. The Ministry 1 could not advise the Governor to come down w* I sums on supplementary estimates for the necessaiv I expenses of removal' ;• and they were fully justified 1 in such a course as they had not voted on t'lsl resolution as a Government, dut as individual rocw- 1 bers representing their various constituencies. l'lC 1 committee he considered a fair one; and if t'll I committee should vote for a removal to Wellington j| —which waspossible,—-then, of course, their report r would recommend to the House "to' vote the necc-I sary money. It was impossible for the House °r Assembly, under, RcsponsibleGoverment, to tlilll!J fj act business without the immediate presence of tl|j Ministry; and hon. members should bear in"1" P that this was very different from the old position<| affair's when an irresponsible Executive had notl"H^ to do with the discussions of the House. J'|" question was not a provincial one, and H should iJt be treated as such,' but on the contrary, "s °Jij referring to ' the whole Colony. He was ulll . ; perfectly convinced that the Colony could bey ; perly governed only from Auckland as the aM j , Government. He had not so strongly thouS 111 U!

.this subject formerly, but he had become gradually . more and more convinced of the fact ever since his arrival from the South. It was an undoubted fact in reference to the future prosperity of the Colony. If the ■Assembly was to be moved, he would not • assist in effecting that object, but would bow silently to the decision of the House ; for he did not consfder himself anywise bound to render any assistance in the matter. Mr. Ward was'asfonished to hear such remarks as the last emanating from any Responsible Minister, whom he considered bound to carry out the resolutions of the House. Mr. Stafford explained that, if the Ministry were defeated on a ministerial question, they would be bound to carry out the resolution, and bow to the decision of the House; but on this question they . had voted as individual members, and were not so . hound (hear). Mr. Ward could not see the distinction. The Government were bound to carry out any resolution of that1 House; and it was most unfair to refuse ' -doing so now, when most of the members whose • votes carried that resolution had departed. Mr. Merriman opposed the addition of names to the committee, and would divide the House upon the question. It had been proposed to nominate ' two members from each province, but that would be most unfair. The committee should represent the number of members of each province, and not unrepresented and unpopulated districts. He considered the committee, as it stood, as good and fair *-.; as any that could be selected in the House.

Mr. Brodie said he wouldvote against every one of the names proposed to be added. ■ Mr. Stafford said that the whole question should be considered with regard to the convenience of members in the aggregate. It was not fair towards Auckland, possessing one-third of the members, to be allowed only one-sixth of the say, in a matter in which all its members were so materially concerned. He would on that ground oppose the additional names. Besides, all" the members proposed to be added, with the single exception of '■ Mr. Curtis, had voted for the removal to Wellington. Mr. Brown could himself speak without bias on the question, and he .could not but. call the committee a packed one as it stood. Ihere were three on each side of the question, and the mover could •carry it, of course, by his casting vote, having already convinced the House that he had prejudged the case by saying he would not carry out the resolution. He (Mr. Brown) would add, that his own reason for his vote on the resolution was that lie had not found the identity of interests existing between New Plymouth and Auckland which he had before believed to exist. (Cries of "Kawhia.'). Yes, in regard to Kawhia he would admit that there had been a compact; but these things must be done hy little compacts between provinces. But the Auckland members had not shown that they felt Identified with the interssts of Taranaki; on the contrary, some of them even recommended that it should be snuffed out. That, was the cause of his voting for Wellington. The Colonial Treasurer did not believe the Seat of Government ought to be removed, although he approved of the removal of the next Assembly as an experiment. He did not see why the committee, although divided in, opinion .on that question, should not agree on details. Mr. Stafford would prefer, on many grounds, not being on the committee; and would not have placed his own name on it, only that the Standing Orders required the mover to be added.

Mr. Carleton apprehended that the hon. mem-; ber for Taranaki (Air- Brown) had lost his usual ' lucidity of mind in terming the proposed committee a packed one. If they replaced the mover by a member on the other side, it would then be equally .packed. How was it possible, indeed, to appoint any but a packed committee if that consisted in the reasons adduced ? Mr. Taylor, said that the hon. member (Mr "thrown) had given but a very poor reason for changing his'vote. If any individual member had used such remarks as snuffing out New Plymouth, it was not the opinion of the House. Mr. Domett suggested to substitute the Colonial Treasurer for the hon. mover, the former being . evidently impartial on the question, having advocated the removal^of the next Assembly, but opposed the removal of the Seat of Government; Mr. Beckham said the only satisfactory plan •would be to vote the committee by ballot. Mr. Williamson wished to say, with reference to his own name being placed on the proposed committee, that— Mr. Fox rose to order. The hon. member had already spoken on the amendment. _ Mr. Williamson—Yes, on that part of it respect- •. in the omission of the words " Seat of Government." .I he amendment had been divided into two parts, and he was abont to speak, when interrupted, to the abolition of names proposed by the hon. member. Mr. Carleton and Mr. Mehriman understood the original amendment to have been divided into two distinct parts. Xhe Speaker ruled that the amendment, as

originally proposed, hadbeen divided; the first part, which was withdrawn, was that to which he understood the member for the Pensioner Settlements to have spoken, and it was now in order for him to speak to the amendment as now before the House. Mr. Williamson was only about to say, that, although he had never omitted to express his decided opposition to any attempt to remove the Seat of Government from Auckland, he had consented to allow his name to be proposed on the committee, andtoenteron the consideration of, the question apart from Provincial feeling, and only with a desire to arrive at some definite conclusion as to the practicability, or otherwise, of holding the meetings of the Assembly elsewhere. Mr. Fox here interrupted by moving that the House be counted (" Oh, oh ;'' and "Order.") The Speaker having counted the members present, stated there was a House (hear, hear). Mr. Williamson proceeded;—ln a conversation with the hon. the Colonial Treasurer, after the resolution was carried for holding the next meeting at Wellington, he had pointed out to that hon. gentleman other difficulties in the way than any that had been referred to ; but at the same time expressed his willingness, for one, to listen to any suggestion as to how these difficulties could be overcome. And when the proposition for a joint committee of both Houses was made to him by an hon, gentleman—a member of the other House and of, the Government—whose views on the question were well knowa to be as decided as his (Mr. Williamson's) own, that hon. gentleman declared that he would only consent to such a committee being appointed on condition that the Auckland members of it would agree to enter upon the consideration of the question apart from provincial bias. He (Mr. Williamson) willingly concurred, being anxious to have the question settled during the present session ; for he felt that he would best consult he wishes of the people of Auckland, by assisting to put an end to all uncertainty on this question. If appointed one of the Committee, it was in this spirit he was prepared to act, and as long as he had the honour to occupy a seat in that House he should be willing to attend at his post wherever his Excellency might think proper to have the Assembly. With respect to what had fallen from his hon. friend the Superintendent of New Plymouth, he was surprised to hear hini state that he had voted in favour of Wellington on the latter occasion owing to the Auckland members refusing to assist him in extending-the boundary of his province into the Province of Auckland. However the hon. member might choose to vote, he (Mr. Williamson) would never have been a party to any compact to secure his vote on any such terms. He (Mr. Williamson) had given the hon. member credit, with the other hon. gentlemen his colleagues of New Plymouth, for consistency; for on a former occasion, although they all voted for the Seat of Govern-: ment remaining at Auckland, they had voted for the next meeting of the General Assembly te beheld at Wellington ; and the journal of the House would j show that the hon. member, Mr. Brown, had himself | proposed the resolution to that effect, which was negatived. ' The question of the additional names was then put, and negatived on the following division:— Ayes, 3. —Messrs Fox, Ward, and Brown. Noes.—l6:—Messrs. Beckham, Brodie, Daldy, Carleton, Sewell, Richmond, Taylor, Curtis, Stafford, Campbell, Domett, Lee, Williamson, Merrinian, Cuff, and Henderson. Mr. Stafford proposed to substitute the Colonial Treasurer for the Colonial Secretary, which was negatived. Mr. Brown said the object of his vote was to test the three places proposed—Auckland, Wellington. I and Nelson. He had. believed New Plymouth to be more interested in Auckland, but found the case otherwise. He regretted the Government had not given the reasons now adduced before the departure of the Superintendent of Wellington, who had guaranteed, on behalf ofjhis province, the erection of the necessary buildings. Mr. Stafford admitted there was an appearance of taking advantage of the Superintendent of Wellington's absence, but such was not the case. The idea did not occur to him till last week. He had then put it on the notice paper, but it lapsed since, from the House being counted out, and he had not intended to renew it, but was urged to do so by other hon- members. He was always willing to bow to th-i decision of the House on any question, but he was not anywise bound to go further. He was not bound to advise his Excellency to spend funds in carrying out the former resolution, in which he did not concur. Mr. Fox thought it most unfair to endeavour to re-open the question, and place it so before the committee. He would move, in amendment, to substitute the words "preparations be made for the next meeting of the Assembly in conformity with a previous resolution of the House." The original motion was put and carried.

We omitted to mention that the list of Bills under consideration by the General Assembly, as given in our last Saturday's publication, was borrowed from the ' Nelson' Examiner. *