General Assembly.

Lyttelton Times, Volume VI, Issue 386, 16 July 1856, Page 4

General Assembly.

HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES.

June 10

financial polict.

The Colonial Treasubgk moved that the house go into committee of ways and means, with a view to consider the resolutions of which copies were already in the hands of lion, members. Assuming the house to be prepared to discuss those resolutions, he should propose to raise the discussion on the whole question, and so give hon..members an opportunity of opposing any parts of his scheme or of proposing any counter-scheme. If there should be any wish to adjourn the discussion of the whole question, he should be prepared to make a statement of his policy, and then to accede to such wish for adjournment of the discussion on the resolutions Mr. Bkodik, as the resolutions were so numerous and important, thought there should be a day or two allowed to give members time to consider them...... Mr. Stafford explained that he had already stated the willingness of Government to accede to such a course, and showed the expediency of the plan now proposed by the Colonial Treasurer

Mr. Fox said the general feeling on his (Mr. Fox's) side was a desire to hear the development of the financial scheme of the Government and raise a debate upon it in full house, but they were not prepared to go into committee upon the resolutions; and after the Colonial Treasurer had made his statement, an adjournment of the debate would most probably be moved.

The Colonial Treasurer said he would leave that matter to be settled after he had made his statement, premising that the resolutions were not a mere part of a scheme, but ■w^ere a means proposed for the settlement of the liabilities of the Colony. He would first wish to place before the house the true financial position of the Colony ; and first as to its means, the annual revenue it had to dispose of. This consisted mainly of the Customs and Land Revenue, which were its substantial resources. The Customs revenue had beeu variously esti-

mated, and in a young Colony like this, must be in a constant course of fluctuation. At the same time we must not deal with this question on speculation, but as men of Business, looking at the past as well as to the future. In the past we had seen the Customs Revenue presenting a too favourable aspect of the position of the Colony. During the last year there has been a failing off, and though there would doubtless be a revival again, he did not expect any great improvement in the course of the next year or two. Exports were the real source of wealth to a Colony—not imports, which represented the expenditure of'a country ; aud if we looked to what were the staple products of the Colony, we could not at present look for an improvement in the^amount of our exports. In these calculations he should not base them on any speculative increase in the exports —if there were an improvement, it would be an error on the right side—and it was the duty of a Government to be within the limit in their calculations. The Auditor General had supplied <i|the Government with the Customs revenue for the last nine years, and also for the last nine months of the current year, showing that £98,000 would be the gross amount for tiie current year —thus disposing of the estimate of the hon. member for Wanganui of £112,000. Our land revenue was not of so much importance in the calculation, as it was proposed to hand over the administration of the Waste Lands to the Provinces ; but he might state that it showed a tendency to diminution—which was not to be wondered at, seeing that the first excitement for the possession of land had diminished, and that many men had overbought land, which had now to be paid for. (Hear.) The postal revenue might be estimated at £3,000 a year, and £3,000 might be calculated on from other sources. They must think, however, whether the postal revenue would be equal to the required postal services. So with the Registrar's depart= inent, and the Supreme Court. The Custom revenue, therefore, was what they must look to for the expenditure of the Government. The revenue from the land was legitimately applicable to specific purposes, sucii as public works, the introduction of immigration, aud the provision for education, the necessity for which had been admitted on all hands, (ifear, hear and No, no.) Those "no, no's" surprised him (Hear, hear)! For present purposes, he would not go into calculations as to what the iand

would be producing for the future, as Government proposed to hand «ver tiie management of the land to the Provinces. Taking then the three sources, he calculated on a gross revenue of £105,000, deducting £13,000 from which, for the cose of collection and other expenses, we had in a round sum £92,000 available for the purposes the Government had to provide for. As to the Assets, he was sorry to say there was no balance in the Union Bank to the credit of Government, but on the other side, that there were balances in the Provincial treasuries amounting to some£26,ooo up to the4th May. This included a probable sum of £3,000 in the chest of Otago. But against this there were charges for collection, liabilities, &c. of £13,000, leaving a balance of £13,000 S to be treated as an available balance. That was the only small item of available balance in addition to. the ordinary sources of revenue ; for the reserves, and other public estates, &c, could not be regarded as ordinary sources of revenue—excepting the native reserves, which if properly managed, he thought would be available for all purposes in connexion with native matters. He must now look to what were their liabilities, on which must depend the amount they had to borrow, or of interest to be provided for. He would make the fullest and frankest statement he had it in his power to make. And when he looked at the amount he was astonished at the hon. member for Wanganui proposing a loan of £50,000 for extinguishing these liabilities. (Hear.) That was the radical vice of the hon. member's scheme, and in consequence of that he believed the House rejected that scheme. There was due to the Union Bank this day £14,000.; and on the deposit account £5,634 16s 6d which Government was liable to be called upon to pay at any moment, aud fur which provision ought to be made at once. Then there were the New Zealand Company's Fourths, on which there was now due £26,000, with further sums probably accruing befoie the proposed arrangements could be made, amounting in the whole to £30,000. This money has been expended, and it seemed to the Government that provision ought to be made for meeting this claim (hear, and no,) —at all events the Government ought to be in a position to meet the demand if it were made upon them, (Hear, hear.) The Government had been advised that the Imperial Government were responsible for all moneys belonging to the New Zealand Company that came into the Colonial Treasury ; and all the New Zealand Company had to do was to present their cheque for such amount, and then the Home Treasury would make a peremptory demand for repayment, as had been the case already on twe memorable occasions, in one of which the Canterbury Association was immediately concerned. |_Here Mr. Sewell read the despatch from the Home Government to Sir George Grey, disapproving of his retaining moneys belonging to the New Zealand Company, on the ground that is was a direct violation of the law, and requiring him without delay to remit all moneys in his hands on account of the New Zealand Company.] There was, no difference in the circumstances between the time when Sir George Grey so acted, and now when the Government were negotiating for the commutation of the debt; and diroctlv it was known at home that there was £26,000 in the Colonial Treasury,belonging to the New Zealand Company, that Company would make a demand on the Home Treasury for that sum, and simultaneously there wonld come out even a more peremptory dispatch to Governor Gore Brown than was sent to Sir George Grey—for this would be the second occasion on which the Colony would have so acted. The Governor, in fact, was a trustee for the Company, and was bound legally to forward that money ; and in the position in which the Colony now stood— with the negociations it was u v w entering into through the Imperial Government to effect a loan, it was as essential to preserve its financial credit, by meeting its legal liabilities, as it was fora woman to preserve her reputation. The effect of our retaining this money would be to put an effectual bar to our obtaining the loan for which we were now asking the intervention of the Imperial Government. Even if we delayed the transmission of ibis money, what should we gain? Ipnust be paid ultimately: and even if the interest were saved, we should have to pay a higher rate afterwards, for we should have to redeem our financial reputation. Again, had the member for Wanganui, before proposing

to raise a loan of. only £50,000,* gone to the Commissioners for Laud Purchases, he would have found that there was now payable £31,590 ■ for purchases of land already made from the natives —of whieh£ 18,000 odd was due in the Province of Auckland, and £12,000 odd in the. Province of Wellington, and he (Mr. S.) was afraid £4000 must be added to those amounts for completing the surveys of these lands, which was so essential on every ground for the sake of those Provinces, and also for the peace of the Colony ; for this settlement was a matter of peace and war. Here, then, were £35,000 added to our liabilities, and that for land already purchased, and now in the course of sale (hear hear.) Then there were the Provincial balances—there were about £5000 due to the Province of Auckland on the 31st day of December and about £22,000 due from the Provinces. Since then there had been doubtless some variation of the amounts. —[Here the hon. member entered into a statement of the difference in the mode of dealing with these Provincial balances adopted by Dr. Kuig!it,and that proposed by the Finance Committee.] For these liabilities provision must be made, equally as for the balance due to the Union Bank. It might he taken in round figures that 95,000 in cash would be required in the course of the next year, and £1000 on the account due to the Natives of the Wairarapa. He must give lhtv.n a plain unvarnished statement of facts—Ac could not ask for a loan of £50,000 and ihH&. wriggle out of the rest (laughter.) Then there was a sum'of £70J0 due to the Commissariat Chest, on account of money borrowed by Sir George Grey, and against which a very ingeniously contrived counterclaim had been prepared by his hon. friend behind him (Mr. Bell); but although this counter-claim was backed up by one of Sir George Grey's own very ingenious letters, the Commissariat at home would not by any means recognize it. So this money must be provided for. There was also a sum of £3000 odd due to the Agent General, against which however there were some sets-off that would reduce the amount. In; this statement be had shewn them that there was about £ 100,000 that must be provided for, besides the old debentures standing against the Government (hear.) He did not mean to say a cheque had to be drawn at once, but provision must be made for these amounts.and the Government must be authorized to borrow accordingly. He now came to those great matters for providing against which his hon. friend (Mr. Fox) had only proposed his two-and sixpenny project (hear.) First, as to Land purchases, would any one deny that the burden of buying land ought to fall upon the Province that was to derive the benefit of the sale of those lands, and that the revenue of one Province ought not to he taken to buy lands in another? the state of the account between the Provinces in the Northern island on this matter was this, that Auckland had contiibuted up to this time from,.,, her land fund £45,000, and had had on 10: £31,000 laid out on the purchase of laiuCWellington had contributed, on the other hand, only £13,700, but when the contracts now in course of execution were completed, £56,000 would have been spent in the Province of Wellington. This (in reply to Mr. Fox) did not include the Scrip account, respecting which he did not thing it would be admitted that the Colony had been benefitted by the Province of Wellington (hear and laughter.) This was no new doctrine, that each Province should pay for the purchase of its own lands, but had Ik ik a'r a'!y,affirmed by the House ; and if it weresr. » that the Middle Island should take on itself th™ extinction of the Company's Debt it was only fair, on the other hand, that the Middle Island should be relieved from the liability to purchase land lor the Northern Island (hear, hear.) He would ask the Hoiiae then as an act of justice to adhere to its former resolution as to the purchase of lands, and at the same time to that resolution moved by Mr. Wakefield, by which the House exempted Auckland from all share in the Company's Debt. He (Mr. S.) was almost the only member who protested against that re-olution,at that timej'or he foresaw the difficulties it would give rise to when they came to a final settlement of these financial matters. But the resolution having been passed, the House was as m uch bound to respect it as a man was to meet a bill to'which he had put his name. The Province of Auckland had already contributed £45,000 to this debt. He believed that the account would be reduced in various ways to about £40,000; it was proposed to

be met, as well as the rest of the debt, by the Middle Island ; and he believed that in taking this debt of £200,000 on themselves, the Middle Island had gone to the pttmost extent their back would bear, —for though they had a larger extent of land than the Northern Island, they had not yet so good a/market for it. They were in fact taking on themselves a burden of a payment of £12,000|. a year out of their revenue of £35,000 (hjja'r, hear.) After stating that in poiut of stricjf justice no Province was liable for any portion of the debt, the hon. member showed tha'fthe plan now proposed was, taken altogether, the best and fairest that could be proposed for the extinction of the claim. He also proceeded at some length to point out the advantages to the colony generally of the plan proposed,and especially injjputting an end at once • and for ever tojJhe jealousies and heart-burnings now existing between the different Provinces. . .Mr. Sewell then proceeded to contend that there •was no ground for the objection that had been raised to his scheme on the ground that it would benefit the Middle Island, by throwing the general expenditure upon the Customs revenue alone ; that the oidyidifference in favour of the Middle Island even at the present time would be from £11,000 to £ 12,000, while as the land revenue increased so would the Customs revenue increase likewise. In support of this view he read J statement showing the comparative resuljjf of charging the expenditure of the Gene- - ral Government to the Customs revenue alone ..___ —or to the Customs and Territorial (or Land) revenue jointly; assuming the annual charge at £50,000, and adoptiug the revenue account of the financial year, ending June 30th, 1855, — thus; —The Customs revenue of the whole Colony was £112,245 18s 6d—of which the Northern Island contributed £87,108 17s 9d, and the Middle Island, £25,076 0s 9d,—total, £112,245 18s 6(1. According to this the charge of £50,000 would, on the above data, be distributable thus:—Northern Island, £38,829, Middle Island, £l 1,17], total £50,000. On the other hand, the General and Territorial revenue together of the same period was £225,948 17 6. Of this sum the Northern Island contributed £170,461 12s 5(1, the Middle Island £55,487 5s Id,—total, £225,948 17s 6d. According to this, the charge of £50,000 would be distributed thus: Northern Island, £37,722, Middle Island, £12.275, so that the difference, supposing the Customs revenue of the Middle Island .' not to increase (which was a very improbable supposition) would be only as between jf 11,171 and £12,278. Mr. Sewell next gave a summary / of the charges (£55,000) of the General Govern-- ' ment; showing the charges of the General Governmentjointly between iheNorthernand Middle Islands were £24,575 0s 7d; that the charges of the several departments for the service of the Northern Island were £27,199 18s—while the charges of the department for the service of the ; Middle Island were only £3,264. He concluded by stating that he trusted the House would ! concur with him in asking to go into Committee his scheme, which was proposed as a whole, c..d with a view 'to the extinction of those political even more than the financial obstacles now existing to the progress and welfare of the Colony. It must also be borne in mind that . this scheme provided a remedy for the undoubted hardships and injustice to which the Province of New Plymouth had hitherto been subjected, and . which had placed her in her present perilous ' position—a position which had been foreseen -long since by careful observers. He trusted the I House would meet the claims of New Plymouth in a spirit of justice, and he trusted that when the House went nto committee, it would not be in a spirit of party, but in au earnest desire on all sides to effect a fair and permanent arrangement of the present financial difficulties which so materially retarded the progress of the colony. (Cheers.) After one or two questions had been asked and answered, Mr. Travjgrs suggested an adjournment till Thursday. Mr. Fox contended that the estimates of expenditure ought to have been laid upon the table at the time when the statement was made — (Mr.Sewell explained that the Auditor-General had not been able to complete the document in time) —that was what he (Mr. Fox) stated when he was twitted, and indeed turned out, on the ground of the non»prod notion of thes<». returns. The Colonial Thbasfber said the case adduced by Mr. Fox was not a parallel one—'the" >' hon. member asked the House to go into committee of supply, which he (Mr. S.) was not j

j doing; and he would pledge himself thai the House should have every necessary information before it was asked to go into committee of supply. Mi. Hall said the House ought also to have all the returns which had been quoted from by the hon. gentlemen. Mr. Stafford wotikl endeavour that these returns should be printed in time for that, and would therefore move an adjournment till Friday. Mr. Fitzherbert thought the estimates ought to be on the table at the time the debate was resumed, and 'that if they were not ready then the debate should be further adjourned. The motion was then agreed to, aud the House proceeded to the orders of the day.