General Assembly.

Lyttelton Times, Volume VI, Issue 380, 25 June 1856, Page 7

General Assembly.

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. May 2, 1856. DEBA.TF. ON THE ADDHESL. Mr. SkwislTj : Sir, on a former occasion I placed my views as to the policy on which the Government of the Colony should be conducted, fully before the House. I and uiy colleagues are, therefore, now on our trial. It is for you to state whether you approve of that policj- or not; and this question I propose to put to you in the reply I am about tv move to his Excellency's Address. This reply puls in issue two questions which are turning points of the Go-i vi rmnent policy. The one—whether the House iK cepts ihe relations established between the Governor and his Ministers. The other— whether they agree in our view, as to the relations between the General^ and Provincial Governments. No doubt there are other questions of great importance which will have to be considered, but they do not appear to me

to form part of the fundamental basis of our policy. The lion, member then read the reply to the address which we published on Wednesday last.

This reply, (continued Mr. Sewell) is veryshort, and the subject matters of it are so familiar to our minds, that it need not take up very much time ior lion, members to form their opinions upon it. I coufess I was very much surprised to hear the other day, after this reply had been placed in the hands of members for several hours, the appeal for delay of my hon, friend the member for Wanganui (Mr. Fox), and especially on the grounds slated by him. It was not that the Address referred to deep and complicated questions, which required much consideration, but that he might concert with his friends, in order to form combinations of parties, so that he might be able to meet the Government with a successful Opposition. I hope those gentlemen have improved the time, that they have been able to form such combinations, and that they are now prepared with that organized Opposition, shadowed out by my hon. friend the member for Wellington (Mr. Fitzherbert)—(hear). I quite agree v with that bun. member that a sound and healthy opposition is <>f great value to a legislative body like this, but I must point his attention to some of the conditions on which such opposition should be based. I am not surprised tbat time was asked for —that forty-eight hours were necessary to form this combination of parties. I can very well understand the difficulties' which those hon. gentlemen h:id to encounter in the performance of that task. But what is the result of this long gestation? —this labour of forty-eight hours—(hear, and laughter) this case of parturiunt montes nusciiur ridiculus mus (hear). The colony requires a distinct avowal of some defined policy, and it has a right to expect this (hear). Instead of this, we liave this mere miserable negative—a mere negative is all that these gentlemen hiive been able to arrive at. They propose to strike out a paragraph in our reply without daring to .offer a substitute. .1 am not surprised that these gentlemen haveuot been able to get further. They unite only to oppose, trusting to Providence for the rest (hear). My hon. friend Mr. Fitzherberi has placed the value, of an opposition on somewhat too broad a ground I admit the value of a sound and healthy opposition, but then it should be based on intelligible principles. Where this is wanting, opposition is solely obstructive, and seems to "me to partake rather of the character of fac- . tion. Well but I suppose we may regard the. parties represented- by the hon. member for Wanganui on the one side, and the member for the Bay of Islands on the other, as'agreed on their principles.—[Mr. Oarlkton: No.]— Well I am surprised at this denial, I supposed that they formed a united party ; but " misfortune makes us acquainted with strange bed-fellows," and so do politics. They are united only for. the purpose of opposing us. —Sir, we state in our' reply as a fundamental principle of our policy, that'there shall be one general legislature for' the whole Colony, and that the functions and powers which the Constitution has placed in the bands of this assembly, shall be maintained for the purpose of securing the unity of the Colony ;. at the same" time that we mean to respect the independence of the Provincial Governments within their municipal sphere—a phrase of which I shall have more to say by and bye. Weli, then, 1 assume that the broad distinction between us and our opponents is, whether theGovernment shall be carried on, on our principles or theirs—ihe principles of which my hon. friend the member for Wanganui (Mr. Fox) is the able exponent (No, no). The hon. m mheisays No. Ttien it seems to me that n mere is no definite policy on the other side, the Opposition rests on a very unsound basis (hear).. I repeat, that the broad question to be decided is, whether we shall have one General Government for the whole Colony, or whether we shall have six. Independent Republics, confederated together on the principle of the American Const tUition (Hear, hear, and No, no). An attempt, is made to create jealousy and distrust of the Government, by rousing can-eless apprehension as to their ultimate objects as regards the Provincial Governments.. Of course that is the object of an Opposition. They try to create doubts and.misgivings, and to ahum members minds, lest we should ba about to interfere with the legitimate functions of the Provincial Governments. I have stated my real views as. clearly as I can, and I do not think that any but wilful misconception cau misunderstand my

meaning. I do not seek to cripple the Provin eial Governments. Ido not even wish to con-

fine them within what I state to.be their own municipal sphere—within that sphere I wish them to be independent, but I wish them to exercise wider powers, subject to the paramount control of the General Government. But lion, members perhaps ask what do I mean by the term municipal sphere ? (hear, hear). And 1 suppose we shall have this debate turn on a mere quibble of words (hear, hear). I will state what I consider these words to mean, and I will do so in the words of a far greater authority •than my own, Sir W. Blackstone. That writer, speaking of the Municipal Law, defines it thus : "Thus much I thought it necessary to premise concerning the law of nature, the revealed law, and the law of nations, before I proceed to treat more fully of the principal subject of this section, municipal or civil law ; that is, the rule by which particular districts, communities/or nations are governed ; being defined by Justinian, 'jus civile estquod quisque sibi populus constitiiit.' I call it 'municipal' law, in compliance with common speech: for, though strictly that expression denotes the particular customs of one single ' municipium 'or free town, yet it may with sufficient propriety be applied to one state or nation, which is governed by the tame laws and customs." That'is the sense in which I understand thephrase municipal.' In that sense I mean to apply it. Ido not use the term in the sense in which we speak of common Municipal Corporations. There has been a great deal of criticism as to the meaning of this word. In that larger sense in which Sir W. Blackstone uses this phrase, I cann.it find one which more clearly expresses my meaning. I mean, by it, to define those matters which concern the a/Fairs of'the Province, as distinct from those of the Colony at large. I -wish it to be understood that I would have the General Government interfere with what I term the Municipal functions of the Provincial Governments as little as possible (hear, hear). If they make bad laws, it is their own concern not ours.llf they make mistakes, the consequences will rest oil themselves. But will any lion, member contend that when these Governments go beyond these limits when they touch upon matters beyond their sphere, and which affect the colour at large that it is not the duly of the Genera? Government then to interpose ? I say that when they so trespass, it is the duty of the General Government to exercise a supervising- care, in order to prevent damage to the whole' Colony. The Constitution Act no doubt intended that the Provincial Governments should have powers of legislation limited only by the thirteen excepted subjects ; I do not wish to contract their range of action (hear, hear). I believe that much useful legislation may be carried on by them ; but in a general wav, when they touch subjects beyond the limits of their own Provincial sphere, they interfere with matters which concern the Colony at lar^e. And upon those subjects I seek to make The legislation of the coiony uniform. We have but one Supreme Court to interpret our code. I desire that that code shall be as simple as possible. One example proves more than a, great deal of abstract argument. I will instance the case of that law just passed by the Province of Auckland for the Registration of Deeds. Now is there any man *vho will gravely get up and say that legislation as to the Title of real property, should not be uniform throughout the colony (hear,'hear). What I proposed was, that we should consider that law, and as far as it may be useful, extend its application to the Colony at lar-re. In this .way we shall avoid the danger of over-riding the 'colony by conflicting laws (hear, hear). As to that criticism on the word " Municipal " upon which the whole opposition seeis.s likely to turn, I am not wedded to the phrase (hear)—express the meaning as you please—(counter cries of hear and 'laiijrlnerV— yes, 1 have uo doubt those gentlemen who want to bang a quarrel upon something, would like to pin me to that mm. JS'ow I am not going to be pinned tlown'to ihij word (renewed laughter). I will put my" meaning in other \y«r.ls, thus,—" I will leave the jmviuces independent in .-ill matters not affecl»g the interests of the Colony'at large. '' (hear and cheers). Is this to be denied ?—t)o gentlemen opposite mean to contend that Provincial Legislation ought to interfere with the affairs of the Colony at large ? That is ihr; question-T----hat is the position assumed on the other side (Mr. Fox : No, ho). Well then, if it is not so, jvc shall see presently what it really is.

(hear, hear). There has been some criticism on another passage in the reply, that which declares that we mean to maintain unimpaired the authority of the functions which are reserved to the General Government by the Constitution Act. Now it is said that one of these functions is the management of the waste lands ; and I am asked do I mean to retain this to the General Government ? I have already said as plainly as I could, that I wish to give to the Provincial Government the entire management of the waste lands, subject only to certain conditions (hear, hear) ; and as to the administration of the land revenue, I think there can be no mistake as to ni} r intention. I desire to make the land fund available to the largest possible extent as Provincial revenue. That is the one tiling needful insisted on by the Middle Island. But when we apply this rule to its full extent, we find that it is likely to affect the Northern Island injuriously. The middle island is likely to have a larger' land, fund in proportion than the Northern. If we relieve the land fund uf the charges which it now bears, and throw them exclusively on the. General Revenue, we are likely to benefit the Middle Island at the expense of the Northern. That point was well considered by myself and my colleagues, and we agreed that an adjustment must he made by taking from the land fund a contribution towards the General Revenue. What that contribution should be is matter of calculation and arrangement, which we think might to be decided by the House itself, after mature consideration of the whole effect of the proposed charges. We desire to leave this question of quantum of contribution to the House itself, who may examine the mutter through a select committee. These . questions we must deal with in a fair spirit, and I am persuaded we shall all of us approach them iv that spirit. I speak for my own Province I assume the same for other Provinces (hear, hear). Sir, I have said all I need do on the subjects embraced in the reply. There are two distinct questions at issue before you, and we shall bow to your decision. If you do not approve.of our policy tell us so by your-vote ; and for myself I say that 1 shall with gratitude retire from a post full of difficulty and anxiety. The question lies between us and my hon. friends the member for Wangauui and the member for the Bay of islands, and those «ho"think with them —for I may now fairly treat them as one (hear, hear). If they shall succeed in inducing the House to adopt their policy instead of mine; then let us unite in one common object, the most important of ail at the present moment—namely lo show that responsible Government is practicable, and to establish it on a safe and permanent basis (hear, hear). Rather than that should fail, I again say that, reserving to myself the right of judgment upon individual measures, I will in such case give them my humble support in working out that form of Government, even under a policy of which I may not entirely approve (Cheers.)

Mr. Dillon Bell seconded the motion, reserving any remark. Dr. Campbell then moved, as an amendment, the < omission ' of the clause which by an accidental typographical elision of a line, he was made to appear to move the insertion of. The amendment was seconded by Mr. C. Brown (Superintendent of New Plymouth) ; and the debate was continued by Messrs. Carleton and Daldy in support of the amendment, and of the remarks of ail the speakers we have already given the pith and marrow in that summary. At the close of their speeches there was a dead silence of several minutes, which was at length broken by Mr. Dillon Bell, who spoke to the following effect:

•Mr. Dillon Bell said it was a most ridiculous position in which; '.lion, gentlemen opposite were placing themselves and the House—to come down and propose to stiike out certain words from the Reply.to the address, and yet not be able to say one word for themselves or in defence of th e course they proposed to pursue, (hear, hear.) Was,it to be supposed that any member of the Government could be expected to get up and make any serious reply to such speeches as had been addressed to the House, (hear hear.) ? The Government had a right to expect that at least the hon. members for Wangaimi and Wellington would have given some expression of their opinions. Of those who had taken charge of the amendment, he must say that they had displayed an amountof pusillanimity alike discreditable to them as politicians and as debaters, wCf •" g l'P a minister at tilat Period of the debate. Nothing- was better known than that ministers had always conceded to them to speak late in the debate ; and yet hon. members qn the other side were goinoto allow the question of all others the most import"

ant to the country to go to a vote without a word to defend their course. It would be easy for them, when they sat down, to make onslaught upon the ministry; he wished them joy for their courage. Although those lion, members, who were so courageous on the hustings, seemed to have lost it upon entering that House, and had not uttered one word in explanation of their views, he believed the real question at issue was—Was the government of the colony to be carried on upon the principle of one central authority, with power to control provincial legislation ; or was the country to be turned topsy turvy by being divided into six independent states, and its general government destroyed to make way for a federal union? Why, then, did not the advocates of ultra-provincialism get up and state their opinions boldly, instead of contenting themselves with a mere negative ? It was an unmanly, unstaresmanlike, and senseless proceeding. He could imagine the formation of a party upon some distinct line of policy : but he could imagine nothing that would sink that Assembly more in the estimation of the people than to see hon. members professing no principles of their own, combining for the mere purpose of ousting those who did. ' Why had the alliance between the hon. members for Wanganui and for the Bay of Islands been that day repudiated? Because the antecedents of the one rendered it impossible for the other to unite with him ; otherwisethe hon. member for Wanganui would he sitting cheek by jowl, in an unholy alliance with the lion'""*] member for the Ba}\ It would be well rememberer_/ that unceasing efforts had been used by the hon. member for Wanganui, in England and elsewhere, to injure the province of Auckland—to brand its settlers with every term of insult and contumely What was that hon. member's description of Auck^» laud in his book—that it was rotten, delusive^^id Algerine. The people of Auckland had not forgotten that, yet the representatives of Auckland were going to coalesce with that hon. member and the members for Wellington to oust the present ministry without taking a single step to enunciate a policy of their own. He had hardly expected to see so great an amount of political abnegation^ With regard to the few criticisms that had b^en passed upon the policy of himself and his colleagues, he could not understand that a shadow of a doubt could exist as to what was meant by maintaining unimpaired (the authority and functions of the general government. It meant that they should work the constitution as it was. The ministry were for the constitution—the opposition for organic change. Now he did not mean to say that a federal government was of itself a bad government; there were great instances to the contrary. What he said was this, that it is not suited to New Zealand, and was contrary to the present ministers* policy, who had wanted to work the constitution as it was. There had been some carping about the word municipal, meant as a trap for votes of weakminded members. In the celebrated debate of 1845, from which might be dated the new constitution or the colony, the very same term had been used in the same extended sense as it had been employed by his hon. colleague, by that master of statemanship, Sir Robert Peel. As had been remarked by his hon. friend (Mr. Sewell) he could not furnish hon. members with understanding, but rid one he thought who had a knowledge of the English language,' could misunderstand what the present ministry meant. It was intended to decentralize the practical administration of affairs by confiding the depart ments of the general government to the supervision of the Superintendent, and while maintaining the paramount authority of the General Legislature, to give the Province the fullest powers of legislation on their local affairs. They would give the provinces the entire administration of the waste lands j and would interfere with nothing they did, so long as their sphere of legislation was restricted to provincial limits. They propose to divest themselves of patronage, that it might be said they went into the market for votes. It had been said there be confidence in the men who compose the miiAf^jjr. But was this the time for that question to be raised ? Whom would they have instead of the minister they would displace ? Would the hon. member for Wanganui enjoy the confidence of the country ? But the fact was evident that a political antipathy to Mr. whitaker on provincial affairs had influenced hon. members to object to the Government, the policy of which they really approved of. That consideration had proved paramount to the interest of the country. He could never have believed that such views wou[d enter the House of Representatives,—that provincial jealousies would be introduced there, and be mingled up with every topic of discussion. He would be quite content, although on public grounds he would regret it, to resign the Government to those who were ready to take it. (to be continued.)

A Successful Expedient,—The other day, a child .in* Liverpool was being choked with-a sugar' ■ ba|l, which had stuck in his throat, when a gentleman, who was in the house, filled his mouth with water, and blew it foroihly down the child's throati The» ball was removed, and the child'.s life saved.