General Assembly.

Lyttelton Times, Volume VI, Issue 370, 21 May 1856, Page 4

General Assembly.

MINISTERIAL POLICY.

Mr. Sewhi/L rose to move that the House do go into committee of supply, tor the purpose of considering his Excellency's message No. 7, which transmitted the proposed Pensions' Bill He did so in pursuance of an arrangement with the House to that effect at its last sitting, and also in obedience to the demand of his hon. friend opposite (Mr. Fox), who had, very reasonably, required that he (Mr. Sewell) should take the earliest opportunity of placing before the House the policy of that government he was then attempting to form. It was desirable that the House should entertain tl«e two questions at the same lime ; with some hon. members, the question of conceding retiring pensions— of buying the old officials out —might be mixed up with consideration of the equivalent to be received for it—of whether, in fact, responsible government '-vas of sufficient value to warrant their payment of such a price. He was sorry to hear the notice of motion given by bis hon. friend the member for New Plymouth (Mr. Brown). From that motion it appeared that there was a disposition on the part of some of the members to postpone the consideration of the question. That appeared to him an unpractical course of proceeding. Postponement could have no useful result. His Excellency offered them responsible government on this condition ; and to whatever period the question might be postponed, it would have to be discussed again in the same form. From the message before the House it would be seen that his Excellency, while treating the granting pensions as a necessary condition, did not specify amounts. Nothing was further from his mind than to prevent the subject of amount from being fully and freely discussed ; the subject of principle it was not in his power to concede. In this respect his Excellency was the mere agent of Imperial authority—acting according to instructions from which he could not depart. By a circular despatch, forwarded in 1852, to the then Governor, by the 'Secretary of State for the Colonies, when the Constitution Act was first introduced—

" The interests of existing office-holders must be protected, becanse they accepted those offices with expectations which cannot justly be disappointed,"

A despatch of a later date bore more directly upon the question. It was written by the Secretary of State on the Bth December, 1854, and was in answer to a despatch from the Officer Administering the Government, containing a full account of what took place in the session of 1854. In that despatch the Secretary of Stale did not insist in express terms on the condition of pensioning the retiring officers, because he assumed that the House had already pledged itself to this. On that assumption he wrote thus—

" A* regards the most important portion of the subject' I have taken the earliest opportunity of informing you that her Majesty's Government have [no objection whatever to offer to the establishment of the system known as ' Responsible Government,' in New Zealand. They have no reason to doubt that it will prove the best adapted for developing the interests, as well as satisfying the wishes, of the community. Nor have they any desire to propose terms, or to lay down restrictionH, on your assent to the measures which may be necessary for that object, except that of which the necessity appears to be fully recognized by the General Assembly, namely, the making provision for certain officers who have accepted their oraces on the equhuble understanding of their permanence, and who now .iiay be iiable to removal. The only officers mentioned ii: ymir despatches as likeiy to fall within this category, are n,>- Colonial Secretary and Treasurer, and the AttorneyGeJi. ni ; nor urn I myself aware of any others ; but I do cot .<■ ah ty fatter your discretion, if farther consideration muLi .-■ it in your opinion desirable to alter the list."

Su; .. i-e then the House re-opened the question, and rest ■■-,{ i'nat it would not gram pensions—.suppose the .I'i-.rs referred back to the Colonial office in thsi ..e— in what position would the Colony have pl-.c . itrelf? He trusted, for the credit of the C:;I •, liiat it would not stultify itself. What advan c A-ould be gained by "delay? Supposing anu - ; ear to be over, and the House again to met «' as it expected that in the meantime the Hoi ';..vernmeiit would be intimidated into complii l- with their demand—and would recede from th- • ■ imposed? But he would not pursue the su - • i.rther. With regard to amount his Excellency did .' ■_>:■ scribe to tiie House any specific sum, but su;/ ■ . fiat a rule similar to that of the Australian '■■; ciies should be adopted. In New South Vv'a }-ie retiring officers received the entire amo » their salaries—in Victoria three-fourths. 2-ii, -. • llenoy did not suggest either course to the H" i■u, in his judgment, two-ihirds would be a fai. reasonable amount in the present case. He (Mj 'vcJJ) was authorised, however, to *a.y that

should his Excellency and the House unfortunately differ as to quantum, his Excellency was contented that that question should be referred home—both parties to abide the result. He (Mr. Sewell) did not think this would be a desirable course, but it might be necessary, in case of final disagreement. For his own part, he was anxious that the terms offered should be accepted, and had accepted them for himself and his colleagues. He hoped the House would sanction this conclusion ; that they would not say—" We have destroyed the old state of things, and made Government under them impossible, and now we will not accept the only terms on which we can establish Responsible Government in its place. " If the House should agree to consider his Excellency's Message, he should assume the principle as settled, leaving the question of amount for discussion in committee. But the house might ask whether, if pensions were conceded, tint would ensure the removal of the old officers. A provision had been introduced into the Bill for enabling the Governor to remove them.

Mr. Sewell continued :—But the question still remained, will the measure have tfie effect of establishing Responsible Government oti a permanent basis ? In the former Ministry, of which my friend Mr. Fitzgerald was the head, we considered the question of an Executive Government Bill, and whether it was necessary to legislate for the purpose of establishing the system of .Responsible Government. By the Governor's Commission and Instructions, he was bound to appoint an Executive Council only moveabl? subject to confirmation from home. Recent despatches have authorised the Governor to establish the system. The Attorney-General is of opinion that the authority from Home is sufficient for the purpose. But that point is under consideration ; and should it appear requisite, we propose to introduce a bill enabling the Governor to make these changes. It has been sugge-ted in former discussions on this subject, that in order to establish Responsible Government effectually, it was necessary to restrain the Governor, and "to compel him by legislative enactment to act only v nder the advice of his Executive Council. I entirely dissent from that opinion. The Crown in England is bound by no such law. The limitation of its powerdepends on traditional usage and acertain compromise between it and the conflicting powers of the legislature. The real control we possess over the Governor lies in the power of this House over the public purse—the right of granting or refusing supplies. I turn to the next point—the relations which are to subsist between the Governor and his Responsible advisers. I need scarcely say that after what has already occurred, arising from misconstruction on this head, this was a matter which engaged our serious attention. Both his Excellency and ourselves have been very anxious to avoid misunderstanding: his Excellency placed before me at my first interview his views in the following Minute, which I am authorised to submit to the House. Mr. Sewell then read the following paper: —

" The view the Governor takes of the relation between himself and hw responsible advisers is as follows :

' 1. In all matters under the control of the Assembly the Governor should be guided by the advice of gentlemen' responsible to that body, whether it is, or is not? in accordance with his own opinion on the subject in question. "2. On matters affecting the Queen's prerogative, and Imperial interests generally, the Governor will be happy to receive their advice, but when he differs from them in opinion, he will (if they desire it) submit their views to the consideration of Her Majesty's Secretary of State adhering to his own until an answer be received.

" Among the Imperial subjects the Governor includes all dealings with the Native tribes, more especially in tho negotiation of purchases of laud. He will receive and act on the advice of his responsible advisers in reference to the amount of money they may desire to have expended in any one year, in the purchase of land, but beyond this he considers himself bound to act on his own responsibility. " The Governor alone is responsible to her Majesty for the tranquillity of the Colony, which would be endangered by the ordinary and inevitable change of opinions consequent on a change in his advisers.

" It follows as a necessary consequence of these views that the Chief Land Purchase Commissioner and his subordinates must take their orders from the Governor alone.

" Before giving his assent to Acts passed by Provincial Councils, and other matters of a legal nature, the Governor will require the annexed certificate from' the Colonial Secretary and Attorney General: and in approving appointments to vacant offices, he will require to lie assured that the gentlemen recommended are fit and eligible for their respective situations."

Now, some parts of this minute did not appear to us perfectly satisfactory, and we thought the hou-e might be dissatisfied, with it. I had several conferences with his Excellency, in which I am bound to say that his Excellency sho .ved a disposition to accommodate his view to ours, and to surrender his power to the utmost extent compatible with his duties. W e agreed a t last to the following modification of the Minute; MEMORANDUM. a. In explanation of paragraph No 1, tho Governor ot course re^rves to himself the samo constitutional right in relation to his ministers as are in England practically exercised by the Sovereign. b. In further explanation of tho name paragraph he intends by the term >' matters under th<: control of the Assembly, uil matters whutever relating to tho Go-

vernment of the Colony not referred to in paragraph No. 2.

c. In explanation of paragraph No. 2, tho Governor refers to clauses 19, 20, and 21, of the Royal Instructions accompanying his commission, which oblige him, as a general rule, to take tidvico in all matters with tho I3xa. cutive Council. He considers such rules as applying to the'subject referred to in paragraph No. 2. And he will not object (having the Queen's sanction to that effect) to limit tho members of hia Executive Council to hia Responsible Ministors.

el. In explanation of tho 4th paragraph, tho Governor would observe that he feels no objection to the House of Representatives defining the specific lands to be purchased, it being, however, understood that it is not compulsory on the Governor to make purchases, if, in his opinion, political reasons render it inexpedient to do so. Agreed to. (Signed) T. G. Browke. April 18,1855. I wish the house clearly to understand the effect of this arrangement. Over all the ordinary affairs of Government, his Excellency places us fully in the same position as Ministers of the Ciown in England.. He makes a special reservation in cases affecting Imperial interests, and in particular as regards the management of Native affairs, including all dealings with the Natives for the purchase of land. As to these he reserves to himself a right of final judgment in all questions, and the persona) control of these departments. I think his Excellencyl^^ right in these reservations. Were I advising hirhf Ij could not recommend him to go one step further ; for this question of the management of the natives is one of peace or war. It involves the interests of the Empire which maintains the cost of our military defence. Are you prepared to take that on yourselves? I would not, myself, be responsible for advising you to that effect. Yet even as regards Native affairs, his Excellency undertakes to confer and advise with us in all matters—to give us fall information as to all which is being done—free access to documents—and, in case we differ from him, lie submits to refer our difference to the home authorities, and to be guided by them. .That, in my opinion, gives to his in nisters, and through them to you—to whom we are responsible—as large a control over Native affairs as you can reasonably ask or he grant. But I know that grvat anxiety is felt on the subject by hou. members. Motions already made show, what I know exists, dissatisfaction—whether rightly or wrongly—as to the present system of making Native land purchases (hear). That is partly a question of Finance: and his Excellency concedes to us the right to determine what sums he shall expend. He agrees to use his power under the Constitution Act, of using the Land Fund for the purpose to whatever extent he pleases. He submits to be governed by us as the sum to he expended. Besides this, he will leave it to jou to define the particular lands to be cougar.—.only reserving to himself the power of refusing to buy, if, from political circumstances, which I know exist, it may happen that the peace of the colony may depend on our abstaining, for a time, from attempting particular purchases. This reservation ispurely negative: the Governor stipulates only that he shall not be compelled to buy against his judgment, if political reasons render it inexpedient. And it is right that the Governor should reserve this power in his hands, till the colony is prepared to say to the mother country, "We are ready to take upon ourseives our own defence, and the charge of the military." We have no right to ask for more, or to take into our hands the exclusive control over matters which may involve the mother country in.a war of which she will bear the cost. I will not argue the abstract question whether it is or is not a wise policy to withdraw the management of the Natives from the ordinary control of Government. I may think, it would have been wiser, from the first, to have given the colonists a larger share in such management; and that, if this had been done, many disasters that have occurred in the history of this colony would probably have been avoided (hear, hear). Had we served a sufficient apprenticeship, it might be well not to withhold this from us now. But 1 will not argue that point, for it is not before the house. The question we have to consider is whether we will accept or define his Excellency's terms. 11b says "1 am responsible for Imperial interests, and 1 cannot surrender to you the unqualified contrjl of these affiiirs. I will advise wifh > you ; if you differ from me, I will submit our difftirenees to the Home authorities, 1 will spend lib money beyond the limit you assign, and, subject to a negative on my part, will permit you to point out what lands I shall purchase. But I will not part with my right of final judgment nor the control of departments, for the proper management of which I alone shall be responsible." For myself and my colleagues, I say that we accept, these terms relying on the approval and sanction of the House, leaving you to say whether you think we should have stipulated for larger powers, and have not done justice to the house in accepting the terms proposed. We can only say that we cannot hold out hope of any further concession. Still his Excellency says, "if the Assembly differs from him on this point, he will refer the matter home, and wait their decision, meanwhije he presses upon us the acceptance of .Responsible Government on the terms

proposed. Then, supposing the house desired larger powers over native land purchases, they will have tlie opportunity of making provision to that effect, in the measure we mean to propose for effecting a loan. That measure will bo sent home, and it'agreed to, the house may ohtaiu such terms as it may choose to impose. For my own part, I do not think it would he wise to ask for an extension of these powers- I am convinced that if we ask it we shall he told,—" Yes, by all means, if you are prepared to take charge of the military"— a charge probably amounting to £•!-!),000 or £50,000 a year. These, then, are the terms on which we have accepted office. If the House disapproves of what we have done, we are r«ady to retire. And here let me notice a question which may be raised as to the position in which we now stand. It may be said that we are making that same mistake which we made in the first session of the late Assembly, and mix ourselves up "nth irresponsible officials. But the cases are wholly different —our position then was that of holding office for a co'itinivinctj in that mixed form. I have declared, and 1 repeat, that I would never again be a party to .Mich an arrangement. But now the case is wholly chanj-ed. The question now before us is, how to establish instantly and without delay, Responsible Government. To effect this o ject some formal steps are necessary, and pending such preliminary measure?, it is necessary that we should assume office for this purpose. I t-an scarcely anticipate such an objection. Should it be raised I can but refer to the Governor's written minute pledging himself to terms which we accept. 1 can only say that I would not insult his Excellency by asking any further guarantee that these lerms shall be fulfilled. We" have therefore assumed office, and submit ourselves" to the judgement rf the House. We desire to see the business of the Colony transacted without delay, and trust that it will not be obstructed by idle technicalities. Presuming then that the House sanctioned these steps—that the Pensions Bill is passed, and that I and my colleagues stand here as the accredited ministers of the Government, the ' question "next arises, what is our policy ? And first as to the Seat of Government, a question uppermost no doubt in every member's mind. Upon tint point we differ amongst ourselves: and it is left an open question. Indeed unless it were thought desirable that the executive should be formed of members belonging exclusively to one province, such difference of opinion is almost inevitable. But this question forms no necessary part of the policy of a government ; it must be decided by the votes of the House. All that I can say for myself is that, whatever the decision may be, I will, and I believe I may speak for my colleagues, endeavour to give effect to that decision to the best of our ability j'viy hon. friend the member fur Wnnsianui (Mr. Fox) spoke of me the other day as an element floating on colonial society. Jt was, I think, rather a fortunare accident t^at.in the present state of things, one person shoulu have been found ready to initiate the introduction of Responsible Government, disencumbered of the antecedent difficulties connected with the question of the Seat of Government. But the House will probably be disposed to ask what are my own opinions on this point, and I think lam bound to give the most frank and explicit answer. I see great difficulties in the .question. Here is Auckland and the North on one side; Wellington aixl the South on the other. Tt is a question which, in my opinion, it is utterly impossible to adjust without compromise. I look upon it as one of convenience anil arrangement, not of compact. I reject altogether the claims of one Province or another founded on supposed compact. I cannot allow that Auckland has a right to refer to obsolete documents in support of title by compact; 1 can recognize noue. Compact ? With whom 1 A new Constitution has been brought into operation; new interests have sprung up, new Provinces have been erected ; and no antecedent compact can be regarded as binding us in fixing the seat of government. Sir, I believe that it is not possible that New Zealand should remain one united colony except by mutual concession. IF the members from the South are year after year to be summoned to this, to (them remote) corner of the colony, they will not come. At present it is almost impossible to get fit men in the South to stand for the General Assembly See the number of new faces in the present House. It is absolutely necessary that some concession should he made to the Southern Provinces as to the meeting of the Assembly. But Auckland will, in the event of change, have the same plea to urge. It is a case of conflicting rights. Looking at the relative proportions of members returned by different Provinces, I rind that out of 37 members Auckland returns VI, New Plymouth 3, and the Southern Provinces 22, —Auckland, in round numbers, returns one-third of the whole. And in my opinion in some such proportion the Meetings of the General Assembly should be adjusted. Say that every third session shall be held at Auckland, the other two in the South. Then native interests demand a larger proportion of the residence of the Governor here ; and there must be departments of the general government located in the North to administer these affairs. There must also be departments in the South to manage

the afl'iirs of the Southern Provinces, and an occasional residence of the Governor there. We must endeavour, if we can, under the new constitution to frame a division of departments, upon .-t somewhat similar plan to that of the old constitution, under which the Colony was divided into the provinces of New Ulster and New Minister. I will not deny that this is attended with many difficulties- I think it possible that thise lUfliculties may be surmounted. I see that in Canada, the general legislature had met at Quebec, Montreal, and Toronto. But this I do s.iy that if from circumstances it should prove impossible in some such way, to compass the difficulties, arising from a peripatetic government, then the inevitable consequence lies before us of a division of the colony, and a separation of the North from the South. Without some such solution as [ propose, I believe it will be impossible to govern tlie colony under its present constitution. But I earnestly deprecate such a .separation. Upon its unity depends its strength. I think it our duty to make a great effort to preserve that unity. Even should we be compelled ultimately to resort to so extreme an organic change as separation, we should not have recourse to it until the experiment has been fully tried of the other alternative. Hut suppose the colony is to be divided. The question will be how? i think there can be but one divi.-ion—that which nature has made —the div sion of Cook's Straits. As to a line of separation through the Northern Island, in wiil be impossible to define it. I speak possibly with Middle Is'and sympathies. As to the Middle Island, I believe nothing would more conduce to its advancement than separation from the North. We should then breathe a freer atmosphere —(A laugh)—an atmosphere free from the complication of native difficulties. Wjth us the native question is perfectly simple ; the native title is extinguished.; and the number of natives is a mere handful. Governed by itself the settlements of the Middle Island would form as compact a colony as any in the British Empire. Then if asked at what place in the South should we now fix the alternate sitting of the Assembly, conscientiously I believe Nelson to be best. Nelson, is I believe, nearest to the Australian colonies. It is besides the most convenient for members attending the Assembly. I have tried the question thus : suppose we calculate the number of miles travelled by members proceeding to the'place of assembly. If Auckland be the place of meeting, the aggregate number of miles to be travelled by all the members would be about 12,000 ;if Wellington the aggregate would be 8500 ; if Nelson 7800. This calculation points to Nelson as the most central and most convenient to Auckland and New Plymouth than Wellington. To members from these provinces one short voyage only would be peccessary. I wish that hon. members would consider this. The great misery of our progress to the place of assembly lies in the repeated stoppages, with the consequent renewal at each remove of the horrors of a sea voyage- Looking also at the possible necessity of division of the colony (for our present experiment may fail) I think it best at once to iix the Southern capital in the Middle Island where, in case of separation, it may be permanently established. There and at Auckland the Governor will have his residence, and at these two points the different departments of Government should be placed. I turn to another question of even more difficulty lhan the seat of Government, and which it would be necessary to face at once More or less it affects every other question. I refer to the relations between the General and Provincial Government. On this point the Constitution Act was extremely vague. It created six Provincial Legislatures, with full powers of legislation upon all but thirteen excepted subjects; a general Assembly with paramount powers of legislation; and superintendents with no defined powers. A constitution has been created of which I believe there is scarcely another example. From this vagueness and indistinctivenessin the respective powers and jurisdiction of these bodies, great difficulties have arisen in its practical working. The difficulties inherent in it were aggravated by the policy of Sir George Grey, in bringing into operation first the Provincial Councils, the inferior and subordinate bodies, before the General Assembly had been brought toge:her. This measure had been attended with most injurious consequences. It has almost defeated the spirit and intention of the Constitution. Six independent Governments, armed with plenary authority, fresh in the exercise of their newly acquired rights, and eager to rush into the possession of them, were set in motion without any author.ty to keep the check. The consequence has been, that the real aim of the Constitution has been almost destroyed. These six bodies, acting independently of all control, for the General Government was so weak as to be unable to exercise any practical control over them—have been usurping,day byday, larger powers ; and should they continue unchecked in their present carerr, will soon be in the position of six: independent states. That was not the intention oftlie Constitution. To break up and divide the colony in this way, is to deal treacherously with the institutions committed to our charge. How to apply a remedy was matter of great difficulty- Two remedies have been suggested—one, to strip the

Provincial Government* of all biu their purely municipal po.vers, reducing them tj mere muiuci-p-ilitie.i. Th.it I will hoc consent to. I beii;ve that, rightly used, and under proper cheeks, the I'irge powers of the Provincial Governments may be turned to valuable account, i would not. deprive them of one particle of their present power. I would but direct and control, its exercise. Another remed> had been proposed of an opposite kind. It is to establish it once the independence of the Provinc'al Governments, upon all but a t'uw excepted subjects,—to limit the jurisdiction of the General Assembly and the General Government to these subjects, and to establish a federal union of the Provinces after the American model. Thar view is advocated by my hot), member for Wanganui (Mr. Fox). The house will probably allow me to read an extract from my hon. friend's address to his constituents. He says this; " The jurisdiction of the General Assembly and the functions of the General Executive ought to he limited to matters of purely federal interest. All questions winch concern the interests of individual Provinces only, ought to be administered by Provincial rule. The non-limitation of the General Assembly, I regard as the great blot on the Constitution Act, sure to lead, as Mr. Giadstone foretold, ' to uncertainty, conflict, and confusion.' I shall therefore endeavour to limii the jurisdiction of the General Assembly; or, if that cannot be done, at all events, to limic the action of the General Executive, by appropriating the revenue in such a manner as will enable it only to fulfil federal functions, and all the residue of the revenue for Provincial administration." I admire the talents and re-pect the integrity of my lion, friend who holds these views in all honesty of purpose. The theory is an able one, and deserves grave consideration ; but I am not prepared to hreak up the colony into six independent republics, united by a confederation, and to establish, even were it practicable, an American Constitution. Such would be the result of giving to the Provinces independent powers of legislation. For my part, I believe ie possible to work the Constitution, as it stands, without material change. I '.vouiri neither curtail in any formal way the powers of the Provincial Councils, nor would f limit those of the General Assembly. At ail events, I would not me.iitate such a change until the experiment has been tried. Let me state my own views as to the character of the Provincial Governments. I may describe them as consisting of one body and two souls. That they were intended as municipal bodies—using the term municipal in its restricted sense —no one can doubt who has read Sir John's Pakington's despatch accompanying the Constitution Act. As municipal bodies, intended for the management of local aitiirs, they should be independent, and subject to \he slightest possible interference on the part of the General Government. If they commit blunders within their own municipal sphere, it is their own concern, not ours. But beyond this they possessed powers of a wider scope. The Constitution Act enabled them to make laws for the peace, order, and yood improvement of theProviifee (words ordinarily conveying to legislative bodies the fullest power), except upon thirteen excepted subjects. The exception proves the rule. Nothing can hinder them from dealing with all except the specified subjects. But, then, this power of legislation is distinctly declared to bs subordinate to the paramount control of the General Assembly. In this character the Provincial Governments are to lie regarded as subordinate branches, and in the nature of departments of the General Government. It is impossib'e th.it the Constitution Act should have meant to create independent Psovinei.il Legislatures. The Superintendent is an eltcuve officer. That of itself stamps the Provincial Governmen: with a municipal character. For British statesmen, in. framing our Constitution, could not have mean: to invest with independent powers of legislation a body with an elective head. Such an institution would have been fundamentally at variance with the British Constitution, which furnished of course the model i'oc our own. When the ■Superintendent assents to Provincial Ordinances, he does so, not in his own name, but in that of the Governor. And the Governor may disallow them. And I specially desire you to notice that in giving such assent, the Superintendent is bound to obey the Governor s instructions. Viewing the Provincial Governments in this light, I would apply the principle I have laid down to practice. With all Provincial legislation of a purely municipal kind, I would interfere as little as possible; Imc when the Provinces legislate on subjects of wider scope, I think that the General Government is bound to exercise its controlling- po-ver. 1 do not wish t<* stop Provincial legislation, even upon those wider subjects- 1 believe that much of it may be of a very useful character; but in general, to make ie useful, it must be made uniform throughout the coloi.y. That which may be :\ valuable improvement "in the law, if uniform and general, may be injurious by being partial and Provincial. Suppose, then, a law* of this nature to by sent up from a i rovincial Government, my course would be to render it uniformly applicable. (Mr. Carlett.i: " lne Auckland Registration Bill.1') Yes, my lion, friend the member for the Bay of Islands reters to

a case precisely in point. The Provincial Council of Auckland pass a law to effect certain improvements in the system of Registration of Deeds. So far as I am at present acquainted with it, the new law contains much that is useful and which it will Ibe desirable to <;ive effect to. But it would be monstrous to nuke the basis of title to land in one Province different from that of others. That would lead to ruinous confusion in the laws of real property i- throughout the colony- Now, what I would do with I * such a bill is this: I would transmit it to the I Superintendents of other Provinces, requesting their [' suggestions. And after collecting these, I would [ give effect to the measure by a general law, to be | passed by the General Assembly. Thus I should extend the benefit of the proposed change to the ■whole colony. 1 will notice another case. In the Province of Wellington, a law had been passed for establishing mixed partnerships with limited liability. I think such a law was much needed, but this Provincial legislation is an ituerferauce with the commercial laws of the colony, which, above •11 others, ought to he uniform. I would not in such cases discard the measure, but I would adopt it as the basis of a general law, which I would extend to the colony at large, and, if possible, in an improved form. Surel} r such a course would be better than the present svstem —according to which erery Province is rapidly establishing its own separate code—its statutes at large. The mischief of multiplicity of laws has become an axiom—" Plurimas Itges pessima republics. " But if multiplicity of laws is an evil, diversity of laws is a still greater one. It is absurd to expect that one Supreme Court can administer all the laws to be passed by six independent, states. If there are to be six independent Governments then there must also be six supreme courts. This conflicting legislation affects even practical matters of Government: interrupting the ordinary administration of public affairs. For instance, —there is a general Census Law for the ■whole colony. The other day the Provinces of , Kew Plymouth and Canterbury passed the Provincial Ordinances repealing the Census Ordinance ' within those provinces The effect, of course, was to disturb and destroy the whole Census of the colony, for the value of suoh a colonial census depends on its being uniform, general, and taken at the same date-. These are instances of legislation by the Provinces beyond their proper limits. How can such an evil be remedied ? The Constitution Act , enables the Governor to instruct the superintendents as to the mode in which they shall assent to Provincial ordinances- I trust the Provinces will not suspect me of wishing to curtail their legitimase authority because I propose to limit the Superintendent's power of assenting to bills. I propose tint the Superintendents shall be instructed to reserve, for the Governor's assent, all bills not of a strictly municipal character, of which the Superintendent in his judgment may not consider as of urgent necessity. Will not this be a wiser plan than to allow bills to 'come into operation, and then for the Governor to disallow them. Just see the predicament in which ;Provinces may be placed by sued reversal of laws. They come into operation for three months ; new interests ari?e, new rights are created, and at the end of three mouths the acts a:e swept off the statute book. What becomes of ail action taken upon them in the meantime ? The course I propose to take u-iii have the effect of purging the • Statute Book of the Colon}, and stop the progress > of th 2 present ruinous system. Tiiei: as to° the Executive powers of the .Superintendents, I have noticed that the Constitution Act gives them no j defined powers. But the Provincial" Councils can I .give them any powers they please. And they have idone so. The authority so conferred they take--;as derived from ihe power which creates them. v ßut beyond these—l look upon the Superintendents as holding a higher position than as holding ; derived powers .from their Provincial Councils! The lion, member lor the City of Wellington (Mr. Pitzherbert) move!! just now for papers relating to the precedency of Superintendent;,. I considerthat Superintendents were meant to rank as second oicy to i.ie Governor. It would be my desire to see 'them recognised in that position," and assuming their placets pans of the General Government-- , uJministeriug the General Government in their respective Provinces ; but of course subordinate to :he Governor hia-.veif. This is what Sir .John rVkiufiton meant when he wrote thus to Sir George J 3rey :- ; '* It i», however, my v/i.sh that any nuch Executive {Power* at m^y ot ioui.d nvccvsury in onk-r to curry „„ tinS u/ict.ous of Government in th« rw, tclivc M : t(Weut«. ;-nay t,e eutruntL-d tothti-e ofH.-ers. Ti.i- may \ lu done by ■ -onr own authority. a» r(.'j.ri.-»pjiti:. ? the Crown, or by Act ■if Itic Central Legislature. a> the cv.-(; may require." jjiuch was the commentary of'the framer of the 'Cont-iituiion Act. I wish to jriw t-fieut to those '''jev. <>. The difficulty of working kespoitMbk. "Jovtrnment will be grc-atiy relitved if the Supcnu- , eiidcifls wiii work heaniiy in cfiop./iation wit!) the ! it'll- r.tl Government in ,'idmiuis.t' tinii its affairs in i !.e j'roviiic< s—if a comtnon sympathy were tsiab-,'i'-btd ben-.t-en them;- and sureiy, t'iiox- ih-( d no \oii' c 'ec bejjealousy on] the part of the j'luvimia! }'

Governments? of the central authority. The six Superintendents have seats in this house ; and when Responsible Government shall have been completely established, I cannot conceive that any antagonistic feeling can any longer exist between the two governments. Sir, I think it desirable, on every account, to concentrate —in one hand—the powers of government in she Provinces, i can imagine no greater evil ilian conflicting authorities in the Provinces. We have alliof us seen the mischief of such conflict. I wish tc put an end to that state of things by deleaatins to the Superintendents—to the largest possible extent —the powers of the General Government. We shall no doubt he told that the Superintendent-; will not accept delegated powers ; that they will not be written to by the Colonial Secretary with instructions. I believe no such thing- i cannot but believe that they will unite fr the common good in giving effect to the Constitution as it is rathtT than necessitate organic changes. To put this matter in a practical foiMi, I propose that the Superintendents sluill recommend the appointment and removal of all officers in their Provinces—that they shall superintend the various departments of the General Government, and that all correspondence between rhe General Government and its departments shall pass through their hands- I propose 10 apply this rule ro all the departments—the Post Office, Registrars, Resident Magistrates, and I think, (though this 'requires some further consideration) to the Customs. There is another department, that, of the Waste Lands. Were we now about to legislate afresh on this subject, 1 might have wished to reserve to ihe General Government some controlling power over the administration ol thu Waste Lands—but action has been taken on this subject, and all in one direction, that of extending the powers of the Provinces;. The Provinces have, themselves, I may say, usurped the power, and it cannot be withdrawn from them Auckland, Canterbury, and Otago, have created their own separate Waste Lauds Boards as part of their Land Regula'ions, no doubt in excess of their .powers: but it is useless to enquire as to that. I propose to transfer to the Provi 'ces the whole administration of the Waste Lands. But how shall we effect such transfer? Under the Constitution Act the Provincial Councils are restricted from legislating upon the subject. But in the second session of the late Assembly, theie was passed a Provincial Waste Lands Act, wnieh had been reserved for the assent of the, Crown, which assent had been given. I objected at (he time to this Act. It was to use a common expression, a queer law. It was an Act passed by the General Assembly to enable itself to make a law to transfer the management of - t he Waste Lands to the Provinces. I confess, I did not, at the time, comprehend the effect of it- But so it passed, and the Crown's assent has been given to it; and, looking to that clause of the Constitution Act which enables us to alter the powers of the Provincial Councils by a bill to be reserved for the Crown's assent, 1 think we may, perhaps without risk, adopt this Act to winch the Crown's assent has been given, as a virtual assent by the Crown, by anticipation, to any law which we may pass, altering the powers of "the Provincial Councils by transferring to them the control over the Waste Lands. But, in making such transfer, we must bear in mind that there are yet general charges on the Laud Revenue ; and so long as these are to be provided for, the Land Revenue must pass through the hands of the General Government, in order, to satisfy such charges. I turn now, .sir, to the subject of revenue. You will observe, as to the Provincial Revenue, similar distinctions of principle to those already noticed. The Provincial Revenue, as at present taised, is of three classes. 1. Revenue strictly Provincial—such as Auctioneers' and Publicans' License Fees, made Provincial by various Provincial ordinances. 2. Revenue usurped, if I may use the expression without offence, from the General Government; such as fees and fines of Courts. Registration fees, &c. In several instances these lies are declared, by general ordinances, to form funds for payment of salaries- Such is the case of the Registration and Supreme Courts. And yet the Provinces have appropriated these ft-es to themselves, regardless of the general law which constitutes them fee-funds for special services. The Province of Nelson had done a notable thing with regard to the Resident Magistrates' fees. It appropriated them 10 the Provincial set vice, and then refti; c.d to provide for the Resident Magistrate, liven for the sake of mere regularity of accounts, it is necessary to put a stop to this mode of_ dealing with these brandies of revenue. The third source of Provincial ftevenue is the surplus of the General Revenue, after satisfying the several charges and the appropriations of this House. The Jt'..venue belonging 10 the Provinces, in their own right, is i-xtrt'inely insignificant; in j), c t, it consists of nothing more ti.ati the Auctioneers' and I'ublic""-' License fees. The Piovinees rely upon the surplus of ihe General Jtevenue for the maintenance of their c-M;,blislnm:i.ts. I think that the Pmymcial Revenue stands on a very objectionable footing. It rest.-, on a most uncertain anj ihictuniiug tenure. From year to year the Provinces know not on w!iat they cat] rely, At first, they received two-

thirds, then half, the net Customs. Now, I regret to s=iy, that I must prepare them lor a further dtminutioii. But besides this, the dependency of the Provincial governments on the surplus General Revenue produces conflicting interests between the two Governments. Many of us here have witnessed the discreditable caurso of our diallings with tJi« cvtiumtus. Kueh Province is liku a hungry child looking on whiln v bigger boy is putting bis hand in the ]>ie. A feeling of jealousy is thus created, which tends to destroy the hurmuny of tlio colony. The House bus heard this Resolutions pissed l>y the Provincial Council of Canterbury. 1 w.-^s a member of that Council, and I there mooted thu broad r.rincijih; of requiring that the Provinces should have secured to them by law some curtain and independent revenue. I look forward to the time when the Provinces will be wholly independent of the Geueral Revenue I tee tuat, in'l'.u-t, thn General Government has claims of its own which will legitimately oxhiuist all its own resources. There are beacons and lighthouses, for instance; steam communication, m.d other objects, to which the Customs Rv venue is more properly applicable than in defraying municipal charges in tbo Provinces, lint tli« provincial iieeesviue.s forbid kucli a course : and it is, I iidmit, a duty of the General Government to provide for thn exigencies of the Provinces until they are :ible to provide for themselves. Let idl1 notice, Sir, throw cardinal vices in the Constitution Act an regards Provincial llevemio. Virst: that the Provinces are made dopeudent.for their necewities upon the balance of an account which the Constitution Act obliges us to lake year by year on strict partnership principles. The misctiief of this provision has buen greatly aggravated by Sir George Grey's irregular liuarcci.'il regulations of August, IS;>3 Tno Constitution Act assigned to thu Provinces the surplus revenue, distributed according to a certain ratio Sir George Grey assigned to the Provinces proportions of revenue wholly differing from the rules prescribed by the Constitution Act; and in the case of me laud fund overriding altogether tli« provision which makes the purchase of native land a charge oti the geueral territorial revenue. This has entailed upon us a m.-iM of confusion of accounts, of dispute and litigation, from which it will uoc bo easy to extricate ourselves. The payments to the provinces are all wrong, and the accounts have all to be recoiistrueiod. The second cardinal vice iv the Constitution Act, a.vregards thu revenue, is that dependency of the Provincial Governments upon the general surplus, which I have already noticed. There is a third, still weightier. The Land Iteveuue is encumbered with charges which do not properly belong to it, and which wholly exhaust ir. Sir, I take it to be an axiom undisputed, that the main object with which price is exacted from purchasers of waste lands of tha Crow/i, in colonies', is to supply funds which may be restored to the land ugain, in the shape of imported labour—public works and improvements. But | for these, waste land possesses iv fact no marketable value whatever ; and the only legitimate objects to which a mud fund can be applied are those which I have specified. How stands our land revenue ? Let me take last year's estimate. The lund revenue of that year was estimated at _£* 100,000; out of this, wli, f)oO went to the Sew Zealauu Company, for charges of collection and surveys, a proportion of the civil list, say half or jSS.OLO. And :hen came Mr. M-l.eun, the Native Liuul Purchase Commissioner, who told us it was neccssAiry to expend a year in bu>ing native hinds. Thus the iai'd fund is wholly exhausted, without leaving one shilling applicable to its legitimate objects—immigration and public works. To abstract this proportion of the laud :'uud for native land purchases, is a grievance deeply Celt by the Middle island, which dojs not participate iv the advantages of the purchases made. Jt is iv fact 11 state of things nut to be endured. One of the great evils resulting from it is, that the Provinces are reduced to miserable shifts and contrivances for escaping these general charges. Look at the Land Regulation*, in all the Provinoes. I'ou «ill see, in one form or another, contrivances to evade the law. I will not say that, in such an exirome case, sui-h contrivancesure to be condemned. It would he far better for the Middle Island to give away its land for nothing, than continue the present system ; for, if you give the Jaud away, the monieut it pas»es into private hum's, you can reach it by taxation. Sir, I will state what I propose to do to remedy these grievances. I propo.-e 10 relieve the land fund of its existing charges, and to mulct! it provincial revenue, subject to contribution to the general revenue, to be fixed upon ecjuuabie principles'. As part of this arrangement, I propose to redeem thu Company's debt. The House is aware that negotiations are pending with the Company with this view; and a select committee is on the poi.it of reporting as to the amount payable to the Company. An oiler has been made by thu home government to guarantee a loan for the purpose. 1 will not ofiVr an opinion at present, as to the exact terms of arrangement; but, assuming them to be fair, I hopa the House will pass a measure, which I will introduce, for enabling the redemption of this heavy burthen on the land fund, which is now payable in a most onerous and inequitable form. I trust also that we may be able to provail on the Homo Government to assist us, by a like guarantee, for a loan to raise funds for the purchase of native lunds.^TNot only is this requisite to cure the. evils I have noticed, but in fact it is an object «>f great importance to compass, without delay, the extinction of native title throughout the colony, livery year adds to this dilliculty. It is the case, of the Sibyl's books. Year by year the price will rise as the colony progresses; and the natives become more and more keen in their bargains. For my own part I do not desire to acquire land mi much for the iiirpoae. of revenue, or to meet the demands of advancing colonization, an for objects mainly political. lam toid, by high authority, thai the first step to bring the natives within the pale of our laws, and subject to our rule, and so to put an cud to the necessity for military protection, is to obtain from them a surrender of their territorial rights. This cost of purchasing native lands has now become a frightful incubus on the colony. It has grown to siii amount which is Wrangling us; and here I cannot but look buck, and lament the laches of former governments in \ living neglected their opportunity. During Sir George Grey's administration, until just its close, the purchase of native lands was alu.ost suspended. For years, fine districts were open for purchase, and the government did not avail itself of them. I mention the Wnirarapii in particular, ilight or nine years ago, tho object might have been attained upon infinitely more tusy terms. Meantime the value of land bus incrtusml. Tho nativcM are fully alive to this fact, and will not be trea'utj with upon the same terms. Still i; will bu a wisu j olicy uij

juy as rapidly as possible. Hut your present resource from the land fund is fluctuating and gregarious. You require a Janre capital for immediate operation ; gay Add to this the old debentures and -£'30,000 for flouting debt; and we reach an amount of between .^'-100,000 and Jf500,000. Enormous us it it;, we cannot escape from it. 1 conies") to undertake the government with such difficulties before me, fills me with alarm and anxiety ; hut we must meet them face to face. If the Imperial Government should refuse its- guarantee, the alternative must, be to borrow on the best terms we can. Intimately connected with the purchase of native lands, is the question whether tho natives should not, to some extent, bo placed on the samu footing with Kuropeans, as regards individual titles. In the neighbourhood of settlements, and throughout the colony, they havo cultivated and improved their lands', placing themselves on an equal fooling with improving settlers. Can we refn.-e to give them individual titles, clothed with the ordinary privileges of ownership over such lands? I think not ; and indeed it lias always appeared, to me ilmt this was one of the first steps to raise their condition and to tearh them the value of our institutions. How can we expect them to understand and appreciate tho value of our institutions,"until we give them tho rights which those institutions are made to protect? There is another subject. In dealing fully with tho settlement of tlie waste lands, Wrf must deal with the question of land scrip. lam not going to trouble the House with the history of land scrip. lint I point your attention to the necessity of some measure for restricting its issue and exercise. It will not, 1 am sure, be endured that this colony shall expend large sums of money, obtained at costly sacrifices, for the purchase of huids, and then, the moment the lands are opened for sale, down comes a flight of unhallowed harpies, in the shape of laud scrip, to carry off the fat and raarrow of jyur purchases. I would do no injustice to the seriphold- / r>es —nothing to impeach the credii of the colony. But I ''see nothing to prevent us from assigning a reasonable time for exercising scrip, or, under reasonable conditions, restricting its locality. At a rong'u estimate!, there is .£•100,0110 worth of scrip, in one form or another, yet outstanding against the mud revenue, constituting, in fact, another of the afflicting burdens under which the colony is suffering. Sir, I have thus touched upon the main questions uffeciiug tho land revenue. As regards tho revenue in general, I propose that all the departments of the General Government, in the Provinces, shall be taken upon the General Estimates, and provided for upon, an uniform principle. See the confusion and irregularity which prevails in this head. The session before last, tho House, in dealing with the estimates, swept off the whole of the Resident Magistrates, declaring in effect that they should be maintained by the provinces. But some of the provinces refused to make such provision. Of course, the departments could not be discontinued ; so the General Government provided for them, and brought them in upon supplementary estimates, last rear. So it was that the Provinces had to bear tho charge of some of these departments and the General Government that of others. That is a discrepancy which ought never to exist. Last session, to meet this objection, the whole of these departments were placed on the General Estimates, although meantime, in various provinces, the Provincial Governments had made provision for them. 1 propose to put an oud to this irregular system, and to provide for the whole charge from the General Government. That, I think, will somewhat relieve tho Provincial revenues. Ido not mean by this to take from the Provincial Governments control over these departments. On the contrary, from what I have already said, it will be seen that I desire to delegate the whole administration of Government in the Provinces to '^the utmost possible extent, to the Superintendents, subject only to trie control of the Governor. I corue now to the question of appropriations for Psoviucial services. I have alluded to the principle fixed by the Constitution Act for the distribution of surplus revenue amongst the Provinces. In point of fact, according to the strict letter of the law. the Provinces are entitled to receive no part of the surplus, until a final account has been taken year by Year. Till this account

be taken, the distributable amount is uncertain. But the

Provincial necessities will not bear the delay. So the practice has been to make advances on account, leaving tho final settlement for future adjustment. Such'! is the present position of accounts between the General and

Provincial Government*. Sec how it has worked. I ."■in afraid that at this time the Provinces are in deht to the General Government How to be recovered lam unable to say. As a remedy for this evil I propose to estimate, year by year, the probable amount of distributable surplus, and, within prudent limits, to make an up-

JTopriatioa for this Provincial services, and in such appro

prialion 1 would prescribe such mode of payment :is may appear convenient. That will at nil events plucc the Provinces in an easier and more certain position. It will rest <>n the responsibility of ministers to be careful us to the limit of such appropriations. Then last there is the subject of Audit. At present there is no system whatever within tlie colony of audit, properly so called—none by which the public accounts can be ihmlly closed nurt settled. What wo

want is a proper tribunal to deal with all questions of public account, both between the Governments and its account•'mts and the General and "Provincial Governments. I do iiot think that *u«h :ui office could be entrusted to out; ■"divuluiil. In adjusting inter-proviucial questions, iv single Person selected, necessarily from v particular Province, would be exposed to suspicion of partiality. But the

'^"'i-titution of such a department ■will form ii proper ►'VbjiH-t for the consideration of tins Honso itself, through it wlccyCommittuß. Now, sir, I have closed the list of'suhIMta { i wliH-li 1 think it necessary to draw your attention, v us inuriiiuj; thu policy which I propose thut tho Government (would adopt. You will bonhlu to distinguish its principal matures, iiiul to give or withhold your general approval. J-Pou iis details I shall ho glad to take advice with the »°use, submitting my judgment to theirs to the utmost oxvjli"' CollK' litc"t wit'> it* main principles. There urn yott-ome fii'ier .subjects which I must noti.-o, beennsu I wish'it not :o ' .•■»'. KDI>P *, V, a t]"lt """>' h>lvc buL'u overlooked. There is the J^"'ifl-"" S I'." r' f'"" A Kroat dosir.-, I know, exists to alter tho If „ ' ivml iln l"ove the administration of the Customs. All I "« I tun say is, that if suflicifiit information should lie 1 'Wore the House, we desire to deal with the .subject in tho 1 present session. There are the Old Land Claims still U """.'""'Ku-s like ghosts. We must adopt some measure for I ■'>>»£ them. These claims principally ailect the Province I " Al"--khn:(l. If W e delegate the administration or tho • >uslL' Luuds to the Provinces, wo shall have to consider

wlu.'lhur to provide ourselves a mode of extinguishing these claims, or whether we should leave it to the Provincial Governments to arrange a plan in concert with the General Government. I think it will he heat Bottled hy a joint action of (ho latter kind. The Province of Auckland has already proposed legislation on the subject. We must, I think, not to allow tl>e Hussion to pass without considering the changes to he made in the Constitution Act. I mean changes not so much of a fundamental and political kind, as formal and technical. I propose that the subject shall he examined hy a Select Committee, and probably the Legislative Council will adopt a like course. I think that we must, if possible, d'jvise some measure for providing for the administration of native reserves, if for no other reason than economy's sake. I fear that I shall again have to bring before the House, upon the estimates, a variety of charges for native purchases. The Imperial Government stipulated for .Z'7,000 a year to be .set aside for native purposes, and I think we have a right to require that the expenditure on those objects should be confined to that sum. Hut there are native reserves throughout the colony which, properly administered, would in time relieve us wholly of that burden. As a last, but not the least important subject, there is thts constitution of the Supremo Court, And tin: practical extension of its jurisdiction to the provinces. I will not enlargu upon its importance. It will he our duty, if possible, to deal with it before the expiration of the session. I have thus traced an outline of the policy which" we propose (o adopt. I will take the earliest opportunity fo submit it to the judgment of the House, so as to enable the House to express its approval or disapproval. But as regards the immediate question before us, —the granting or withholding of pensions, I entreat you not to throw aside the boon fir which you have been so long clamouring, and hy rejecting the pensions, refuse the offer of Responsible Government That is the question »io\v before you. Do not let it be said of us that, having got the machine, we are unable to handle it. In urg'ng this, I am not pressing upon the colony any particular policy. I am arsuing the cause of Responsible Government. I see far more to dread in the rejection of this principle than in the adoption of a policy opposed to my own. So strongly do I feel on this subject, that if my hoa. friend the member for Wangunni should succeed in .prevailing on the House to adopt his views, then reserving to myself my right of judgment on individual measures, I will pledge myself fo give my best energies to support him in working out Respon-ihle Government—whether under one form of policy or another. The hon. member sat down amidst cheers.

On the motion of Mr. Carleton, the House adjourned to Monday, the 28ih of April.