Provincial Council.

Lyttelton Times, Volume VI, Issue 355, 26 March 1856, Page 5

Provincial Council.

The Speaker went to prayers at five p.m. The Provincial Secretary laid on the table a continuation of the correspondence relative to the steamer " Alma ;" also another paper on the financial statement of the year brought down to the 18th of March. £&Mr. Haix presented a petition from certain owners and occupiers of land lying between Christchurch and the Peninsula. The petitioners showed that, having1 raised simony themselves the sum of £100 to meet a grant of £100 voted by the Council, a road had been constructed through the Town Reserves, over ground hitherto utterly impassable by reason of swamps; that this sum being inadequate for the completion of the works, they had raised among themselves a further sum of£47. With this sum, and by the help of much personal labour, ihey had made a good road, and so improved the public land known as the South Town Reserve that much of it had been brought into the market and sold. The petitioners, however, are of opinion that if the road be not metalled before winter, it will become impassable. Under these circumstance!:, the petitioners begged the lion. House to take the matter into their consideration. Mr. Halt, gave notice of a motion to introduce a clause into the Public-house Bill constituting districts for licencing. Mr. Tanokijd (for Mr. Hamilton) moved that the English Agent Bill be read a third time. The Provincial Skchetaby seconded the motion, "which was carried. , The bill was then read a third time and passed. The Provincial Seorktary brought forward his iiumcial statement for the current year, an outline of which we gave on Wednesday last.

Wednesday, March 19. Tlie speaker went to prayers at 11 o'clock. Mr. Ou,ivier made an enquiry as to whether arrangements hud been made with the govern"'cuts of other Provinces to ensure an exchange <>f copies of the ordinances passed by each. He wsked this question, because he had not been

able to find in the library some ordinances of another province which he required. The Speaker explained that arrangements for the exchange of the ordinances of other pvov•nccs existed ; and if the particular ordinance could not be found it was owing to the fact of sufficient time not having elapsed to enable the papers to arrive. Mr. Hall would ask the Prov\ Secretary if he could give the house any information lo guide them in the question of the grant fur education which would be proposed in the estimates. He wished for some data to judge what sum was actually needed, whether £1,000 or ,£ 1,200 and how it was proposed to apportion it. The PnovixciAT. Secretary said ihat returns had been prepared connected with the schools from the heads of the church school and of the Wesley an school at Christ church, these returns should he laid on the table of the house tomorrow. On the motion of Mr. Tancred, seconded by the Provincial Secretary, The Speaker left the chair and the house resolved itself into a committee of the whole house, lo consider the Public House Bill.

Mr. Davis complained of a m-sanderstanding which had arisen respecting the day on which this measure was to have been brought forward, ami said that he had come to the house purposely last Friday, to attend the debate, and found the bill was nut brought forward on that occassion. Mr. Tancred replied in explanation. Mr. Dampieb thought that clause 1 might be omitted without detriment to the bill. It seemed to him to assume a power to repeal the ordinances of New Zealand, a power which he very much doubted that Council to possess. It was veiy dangerous in his opinion to attempt to exercise a right that they were not sure they possessed except under very careful supervision. Motion that the Clause stands part of the bill—Aye. Li the debate on Clause 2, Mr. Tancred said thai it had been suggested that the wholesale quantity of spirits &c, should be 4 gallons instead of 2, and that wholesale dealers should take out a license to deal in spirits, &c. s as in England. Mr. Daws spoke as to the bad effects resulting from the smaller quantity being allowed to be sold by the dealers and small storekeepers, and gave instances of the infringements that the law is at present subject to. Dr. Barker thought it reasonable that the dealer should pay a small license-fee. Messrs. Hall and Ollivier each proposed amendments to this clause, having for their object to m;>ke the wholesale transaction more incapable of evasion. The Provincial Secretary, Messrs. Tancred, Hamilton, Dumpier, Sewell and Thomson spoke on this point. A division took place on each of the amendments, when the clause finally read as follows :— "If any person, not being duly*licensed, shall upon any one occasion sell any quantity less than two gallons of any one kind of spirituous liquors, wine, ale, or beer, or knoicinglif permit the same to be sold in or upon his house or premises, or to be removed at any one time from his premises, for the pui pose of sale, he shall forfeit and pay for every such oPi'euce the sum of £50." [Italic type distinguishes the alterations from the Draft Bill in the above and subsequent clauses.] Clause three was carried. On the 4t!i clause, the word " Superintendent" was objected to as unnecessary, and the words " court before whom the conviction takes place ;" and, owing to the difficulty of .sale in some cases, the word " destroyed" was inserted after sold ; making the first part of the clause Ij rcod :— " All liquors so forfeited shall be sold or destroyed, in such manner as the cozirt before whom the conviction takes pace shall direct." Mr. Thomson would move the omission of the last part of the clause as encouraging the office of common informer, a class of men whom it was very inexpedient should be flourishing among us. Mr. Tancbud thought it would be best to keep the clause as it was, as it would be an encouragement to the police to seek out the parties who infringed the law, and bring them to justice. Sir. Thomson's motion was negatived without a division.

Clause 5 was carriedOn clause 6 being proposed, relating to the different class of licenses, and referring to schedules ; asthese schedules were not then before the House, it was resolved that this clause should bepostponed for the present. Mr. Hall brought forward his motion relatire to establishment of licensing districts. After a full discussion, it was lost on a division by 9 to 7. It being half-past two, the committee adjourned till four o'clock, at which hour the business was resumed. In clause 7, the words " in the case of a new applicant for a license" were inserted after the word " with," in the 12th line. With this addition, the clause passed. The Bth and 9th clauses passed. Clause 10 was subjected to several amendments, which resulted in the following amended clause, which was then passed. " On ike first Tuesday in May, in every yean there shall be holden at the police office at Lyttelton, a general meeting, and on the following Tuesday, at the Court house at Christchurch, an adjourned meeting of the Justices of the Province, to be called the annual licensing meetings, &c.'' And at the end of the clause was added; " Provided always, thai any such meeting as aforesaid, may be continued by adjournment, to such day and such place as the Justices present shall determine." Clause 11, subject to some slight verbal alterations, to make it accord with amended clauses, passed. Clause 12 passed. Clause 6 was here taken into consideration. On the proposal to introduce a fourth class of licenses, those for the wholesale dealer, Mr. Hamilton said he wished to have a little time to consult the legal adviser of the Government on this point, before its final adoption. They were now endeavouring to establish a licence on a totally new branch of trade. He thought that it trenched somewhat closely on the import trade, and consequently on the customs, which they were precluded from meddling with. Clause 13 was passed with this addition after last word : "Provided always that if it should appear expedient to such justices or to a majority to refuse any application for the renewal of a license, the Chairman of such meeting shall thereupon cause a notice to this effect to be seived on the applicant, and the hearing of such application shall thereupon be adjourned to the next meeting of Justices/ In clause 14, the blanks were filled up as follows : Fora General Licence, £3o : fora wine and beer license, £10 ; for a conditional licence, a sum not exceeding £10; and fora wholesale licence, to sell not less than two gallons, £10. Mr. OiLiviEß proposed to strike out clause 15, as unnecessary. Ou a division, the motion, was lost, and, with the omission of the words "the clerk to," at the beginning, the clause was passed. The 16th clause was passed. On the 17th clause, Mr. Ojllivier thought that the word " Superintendent," as introducing a power unknown to the bill, should be omitted, and the wards " any three justices'' be substituted. — The motion was lost on division, by 7 to 6. The clause stands, therefore, as before. The IStli clause passed. Mr. Tancred begged to move the insertion of a clause providing for the transfer of a licence in case of the death of a holder.—The clause passed. Clause 19 passed. Mr. Otxivitm said that now, it might fairly be said, commenced the tug of war. He considered the bill unnecessarily severe, and would move several amendments to it. The penalties also were too severe. He congratulated the Government on having solved the enigma which the legislature of England had been unable to do, viz., to define a traveller. It appeared that according to this definition he was a man living seven miles from a public-house. (Laughter.) He should propose three miles, instead of seveu, as being more convenient. Also that the hour of ten being too early for closing, he would propose eleven. Mr. Davis showed that the present wording of the bill would not work well in practice. The Provincial Secretary replied generally to the objections against the bill. With regard to the traveller's clause, he would obseive that, like Dickens' barber, " the line must be drawn somewhere" (laughter) ; and the Government had thought that'seven miles was v !u:r and just line to draw.

Clause 20 was then discussed in all its paragraphs, and was the object of several divisions. Mr. Or.uviKtt's motion for keeping house open until II instead of 10 o'clock was carried on a division by 8 to 6. Air. Ollivier's motion for opening on Sundays from 1 to 5 p.m., was rejected by 10 to 4. The penalty paragraph was altered without a division. Mr. Ollivier's motion ~to substitute 3 for 7 miles was"re/ec£erf by 9 to 5. Mr. Thompson's motion fur substituting the word 5 for 7 miles was carried. The clause as amended reads thus :—" It shall not be lawful for any person holding a license under this ordinance to sell or supply any liquors, or to suffer the same to he drunk in or upon his house or premises, upon t any Sunday or Christmas day, or Good Friday, or upon any other day between the hours of eleven at night or six in the morning-, and on such days and within such hours his house and premises shall be closed ; and any person offendin;; against the provisions of this clause shall be liable to a penalty of not more than £20." " Provided always, &c. . . . and shall have no residence within Jive miles of such house." . . . ."Provided always that nothing herein contained shall be interpreted to authorise the opening of any outer or street door leading to any bar or tap on ihe days and within the hours mentioned, or supplying any liquor therein." On the motion of Mr. Thompson, the Chairman reported progress, and the Speaker resumed the chair. The Provincial Secretary moved the discharge of all business from the Notice Paper.— Carried. Notices i,f motion were renewed for other days, and the House adjourned at 8 p.m

Thursday 20th. The Speaker went to prayers at 5 p.m. The Provincial Secretary moved and Mr. Tancukd, seconded, that llie Speaker leave the chair and that the. house do* go into com-, luittee. Carried. The Speaker then left the chair, and the house went into committee on the supplementary estimates for the past year. On a motion to grant a sum of £[(j6 to the works on the Akaroa Bridle path, Mr. Hall complained that the works in question in his opinion were not satisfactory. That a Bridle Path could have been constructed at a cost within the first grant; but that the government had chosen to spend the money on a partial c rnipleiion of* a road 8 ft. wide, to complete which road it would yet take ,£1,300, so that it would remain unfinished until the Council could afford to?gram>£2,3oo. It seemed doubtful to him if they would be able to do so for a very long time, meanwhile, that part of the Ts>ad already done would become overgfown. The reason given for the course pursued, he believed, was that when the complete road was made, that the Bridle path would be thrown away. He thought it was an injudicious application of ihe funds to abandon a really practical though temporary road for the sake ot an incomplete one. The" vote was ultimately allowed. The supplementary estimates were granted, after which the estimates for the present year were brought forwards. On the proposition to grant £2;)0 for the salary for the Provincial Treasurer, Mr. Thomson moved as au amendment that the item be struck out and the duties transfused to V c Irovmcial Secretary's depaitinem. The Government expenses had trenched so iiniuh <>n the income, that after paying the mere expenses an 1 salaries of the various departments, we were left merely with a b.ilmice of £400 for the public works of the Province. It is very evident that «c can imif-ifford to keen up these txpences our dunes are economy and re!n;nc!iniem. lie (Air. Ihomsoii) did „o t think that the diuu>< to be »erf.,rmed by this officer were vcrv ar.iu.ms He hut] not the slightest personal leeiln-r in tin-rn.-m«-, t.e enteriained t.ie highest r^iiest for the -gentleman at present holding ,} K . „/>;...e ],„, sti.l he thought there was an open in-/ f,, r retrenchment. Mr. Ollivier had great sympathy with tlic last speaker. The expences ->\ the Province appears to have been increasing ever .since it was constituted ; the first year they w^re £:V.)7H the second £5204, the third £fjß,jO, tho fo'iiu''! was £7660, shewing an avenige increase of £1000 a year. This was beginning to be miked of seriously out of doors ; he would ask wheiti» was to cud. Were we not paying too dear

for our whistle ?,\vas not Provincial Government becoming a cosily trifle? It was our duty to study retrenchment. In his opinion it should bs begun by a concentration of offices, by having fewer hands in our offices. He saw on the list the office of Provincial Solicitor; he (Mr. OUivier) would suggest that it would be a saving to abolish the office, and when advice was required by the government to pay that gentleman by fees. Mr. Hall was afraid that in this instance it would be no saving to suppress this particular salary ; the usefulness of the government might be impaired; the duties and responsibilities of the two offices were very dissimilar. The gentleman who fills the office of Provincial Secretary must not depend on his office for a livelihood : he must be prepared to quit perhaps at a short time; the duties of Treasurer would thus be much neglected in the intervals of office. It would also involve the pay of another clerk, as the work resulting from the Canterbury Association's estate has lately been added to the duties of the office. Mn. Hamilton said that it might be in the recollection of the house that he had opposed this particular appointment at the time it was made. He was of opinion that this office could not be suppressed without we were prepared wholly to remodel our public establishment. He did not think that question was before them. The office of Provincial Treasurer was an onerous one; he had to disburse all the money voted by this house. The office now requires the experience of a man who has been in it some time. There was a large amount due on outstanding bills of emigrants ; there was the management of their new estate. All this required on the part of the person filling the office a traditional knowledge of men and things which could never be obtained if the office were made a shifting one. As to the statement of the small amount of work he (Mr. H.) denied the fact. Let the Treasurer's books be produced to the house, and they would then see the amount of entries on them. It was the Treasurer's place to see that all their votes were strictly adhered to. He was also not only bound to take charge of all the public moneys," and to give heavy security for it, but also to' take care that the payments were made in a. proper and legal manner. Hon. gentlemen were assuming that this was the only department that wanted expunging. On looking down the list he (Mr. H.) saw the name of a department which he thought was now fully open to revision; a department which he § had heard 'from a gentleman well-versed in the law would, in a few years, lead to much confusion in the Province. He alluded to the Registration Office. Of the two offices, he certainly thought that this last oue should go, rather than the office of Treasurer. In regard to the duties beinsr carried on by the Provincial Secretary, he would just make one remark. Where had the Provincial Secretary been for the last three weeks ? How were the duties of Treasurer to be fulfilled wlrib the Secretary whs in this house? As to the remark of the hon. member concerning the Provincial Secretary, he (Mr. H.) recollected two years ago, when the appointment was made, a legal gentleman had informed him that if they could » e t their law done for £'300 a-year, they got it very cheap. He (Mr. H.) was convinced that by falling back 0:1 an tinsilaried legal adviser, their Wai expenses wot*)*! come'to MOO or £700 a-year more than they m.w paid. The labour of dee-Is, lenses moitgages, was very great, and the Government was not able to be carried on /vithout havinjr recourse fat each step to legal advice. The office could not be more ably filled than by the {gentleman who now holds'it. Wore the Council prepared to consider the consequences of the step that was now proposed to them' \Vere they prepared to abolish the office of treasurer, and to make some compensation to t»e gentleman now- holding U, ilt o ffi ce ,-, r U|e loss of the situation, which, when he accepted it, be hud every reason t,> believe was a permanent one. If they we ,c not, he (Mr. M ) thought thai they were not likely to K et any men"of talent or s,unt to hold uflice Com them. Hon ! im-inbers must also hear in mind lHe constam attendance on the „urt of this gentleman both here and at Lvlteltu,, ; it ,vas „.,t as in Eng- ;'",!, where Government clerks had six weeks • or vacation ,„ „ ye.-,,-. JJe considered the office tobenMu.spensabloa.Hiiobe maintained. »r. iJAKKEßihumjia that it was rather incms.stent 111 those 1,,,,,, numbers, who last year nan voted hn the oUice of treasurer being

a permanent one and not subject to change, now this1 year lo propose that the duties be performed by the officer; most liable to change of all the government, .(laughter) The Provincial -.Secretary was not sure of his office for a wee.s, aifd it would take some time for a uew secretary to become used to the forms of the office. He (Dr. Barker; had thought at the time the appointment was made, that it-should haye been bestowed on an older man. He had also some recollection of its being proposed as he highest bait for political success. Mr. Packick said, This was not a question merely as to the office of Provincial Treasurer it was a question whether or no we should revise the whole of our financial system. We had now arrived at that state when a prudent man looks into his affairs; we lune an increasing expenditure, and an insufficient'income; and instead of self-government being a cheap it was a dear government. We were the only colony in this situation. He saw by the public fruits that all the other colonies are exulting in their prosperity, while we were in a critical state. The.whole of our system wanted revision, and he was'rery, very sorry to see a little indication of a system peep out to night when the hon. gentleman on the treasury bench spoke of compensation, in case an officer of government was to be got rid of. The Provincial Secretary himself was obliged to go oul without warning. It was a bad principle to set out with that they should be called on to pay perhaps £200 for a retiring pension.- The narrow edge of the wedge of taxation had this session been inserted. You were not directly taxed, Oh, no! you were permitted to tax yourselves. You could have public roads and drain?, and any other luxuries you like ; enquire of the provincial engineer, and no doubt you may comb your own hair if it is pleasant, (laughter) He (Mr. P.) recollected the time when Mr. Godley and others used to say, that when they got rid of Sir G. Grey, and his government, what a nice government of their own they should have. Sir G. Grey, certainly took the lions' shave, but then he also used to thvow us a hind leg occasionally as a gift, (laughter.) We must try if we cannot resolve ourselves down to a municipal body; we have grown too big for our boots. We must abolish the whole of our present forms, and come back to our original government. In our case responsible government was nil bosh. We have got too ac:ive a man at the head of it. We must be satisfied with a strong central government above us, and must rest satisfied just to manage our own little corporate affairs. He would be glad if the house] would resolve itself into committee, to consider the state of the province. Mr. Hall thought the best plan would he fo appoint a finance Committee, as it was not fair to judge merely from party statements. [The holidays this week compel the shortening of our publication to-day ; we will give the continuation of Thursday's debate on Saturday.]